THEOLOGICAL FATALISM - ALLAH'S WILL and OTHER CHARACTERISTICS
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Peace Idolfree1 and all!
I've been deligently doing research into all of this. I found something that I'm trying to understand ... I hope you all can help me
There is a very famous story in ancient Egyptian times of a baby born of virgin birth ...
Another of a mother and her baby and these are actually depicted in statue form in Luxor. the mother and son are opposite each other and a crack in her statue lets out a crying sound when wind passes thru her.
There is also a story written in heiroglyphics of AmenHotep who went to the side of a mountain and fell from awe at the power of God ...
All of these stories have relevance to religious "stories" .... mary and jesus, hagar and ismael, moses and the buning bush ...
I don't know what to make of all of this really ...
Is it that these stories were related to them thru prophets we don't know about? Possibly explaining stories of the future?Or is it that all of these stories occurred during their time and we have history all wrong? That Jesus and Moses and Ismael were all Egyptian? And that Moses was a pharoah????
Or is it that other people later adopted the ancient stories of Egypt and incorporated it into a new-born religion?
Can anyone shed any light into these disturbing facts?
Peace
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Peace Boost, all,
Or is it that other people later adopted the ancient stories of Egypt and incorporated it into a new-born religion?
That seems to be the most likely scenario. Brothers Arnold and Kyle are both much better versed in this subject than me, so they can fill in the details if they wish. But the bottom line is the virgin-birth myth is much older than Christianity and Islam, and followers of both religions have knowingly or unknowingly adopted this myth into their faiths. The Qur'an clarifies this by stating that Isa was just a man like every other messenger, that he was raised in honor, and will be a witness against those who falsely attributed divinity to him. There's been plenty of discussion on this topic so you might want to use the search function to help you reach an understanding.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace be upon you Boost,
I've been deligently doing research into all of this. I found something that I'm trying to understand ... I hope you all can help me
There is a very famous story in ancient Egyptian times of a baby born of virgin birth ...
Yes, Heru(Horus) and Auset(Isis). There are many such stories throughout recorded history, this one being the oldest RECORDED story.
Another of a mother and her baby and these are actually depicted in statue form in Luxor. the mother and son are opposite each other and a crack in her statue lets out a crying sound when wind passes thru her.
There is also a story written in heiroglyphics of AmenHotep who went to the side of a mountain and fell from awe at the power of God ...
All of these stories have relevance to religious "stories" .... mary and jesus, hagar and ismael, moses and the buning bush ...
I don't know what to make of all of this really ...
Is it that these stories were related to them thru prophets we don't know about? Possibly explaining stories of the future?Or is it that all of these stories occurred during their time and we have history all wrong? That Jesus and Moses and Ismael were all Egyptian? And that Moses was a pharoah?
Or is it that other people later adopted the ancient stories of Egypt and incorporated it into a new-born religion?
Can anyone shed any light into these disturbing facts?
What it shows us is that these stories are metaphors, used over and over again because of the superiority of metaphorical story telling to make an impression on the spirit(nafs), mainly using the right brain, as oppossed to left brained linear learning.
My position is that later cultures incorporated the stories of the people of Khamit(Egypt) into thier philosophies based on the fact that people all over the known world went to Egypt to learn all of the arts and philosophies. But we also must understand that we can only go back as far as recorded history can take us, we dont know where the origin of these metaphors began, recorded history can only take us back as far as the Nile Valley civilization (Sumer , Khamit, etc)
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Peace
So how do we know that it is a metaphor? I mean AmenHotep said in the heiroglyphics of his temple that, "I went to the side of the mountain and I saw God's Power and fainted" .... How do we know that he really didn't do that and he was telling stories to his people that were all analogies? Is there any evidence to prove that?
The only reason why I'm saying this is because from what limited knowledge i do know of Ancient Egypt, they believed in alot of wacky things ... they had rituals and idols and mindless beliefs that everyone just went along with because they came from the same town... similar to Ancient Greece and their version of gods and goddesses...
So what evidence do we have that when AmenHotep said he saw God and fainted that he wasn't being literal? The same temples spoke of wars and lands that he won... why are those not considered analogies too?It could very well be that it is a metaphor and thats how everyone thought of it i honestly don't know and am honestly asking ... i'm just playing devil's advocate in order to distill any doubts in my mind because i think it's harder to be certain about something that happened so long ago...
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Peace BOOST,
You stated
So how do we know that it is a metaphor? I mean AmenHotep said in the heiroglyphics of his temple that, "I went to the side of the mountain and I saw God's Power and fainted" .... How do we know that he really didn't do that and he was telling stories to his people that were all analogies?
First, metaphors, analogies, and allegories are 3 different things. I'm just learning the differences myself. Wikipedia does a nice job in explaining this.
Back to the point...how does one see the power of God?
Isn't God's power all around us?
Perhaps what AmenHotep was stating was that he'd become aware of God's power as he was on the side of the mountain. And in becoming aware, he stayed locked into that awareness. And as the awareness built and built and his mind was silent in witnessing, his brain just shut down and he fainted, overcome by this magnificence he witnessed. Maybe he saw a lightning bolt, or a ray of sunshine breaking through the clouds, or simply an eagle soaring in majesty. It seems to me that he saw something that triggered his soul into awe, and in that moment he was humbled and infinitely appreciative.The only reason why I'm saying this is because from what limited knowledge i do know of Ancient Egypt, they believed in alot of wacky things ... they had rituals and idols and mindless beliefs that everyone just went along with because they came from the same town... similar to Ancient Greece and their version of gods and goddesses...
Wacky and mindless aren't the first things that come to mind when thinking of the ancients. In fact, I'd say they were genius by any modern standard. Think about this...all over the planet you can find ancient pyramids, and they're always associated with massive and awe-inspiring civilizations - accomplishing feats that to some extent still remain a mystery
Pyramids and the rituals associated were not for the tombs of great kings and such, but they were built as "reception" towers of cosmic energy which later became tombs (in some instances) because the powerful wanted to be buried as close as possible to these zones. However, these great civilizations always used the energies for their own desires, and God always destroys the nation that does not live in harmony with His will.
So what evidence do we have that when AmenHotep said he saw God and fainted that he wasn't being literal? The same temples spoke of wars and lands that he won... why are those not considered analogies too?
As I stated above, it's not necessarily symbolic of anything - it's just that we need to dig a little deeper to understand what's behind that simple sentence.
i'm just playing devil's advocate in order to distill any doubts in my mind because i think it's harder to be certain about something that happened so long ago...
I'd say this is a wise approach. The only true certainty lies in the present.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace be upon you Boost,
So how do we know that it is a metaphor? I mean AmenHotep said in the heiroglyphics of his temple that, "I went to the side of the mountain and I saw God's Power and fainted" .... How do we know that he really didn't do that and he was telling stories to his people that were all analogies? Is there any evidence to prove that?
That one statement is not enough to decide, I would need the entire context of that statement to make a more informed decision. But when it comes to things like boys being born of virgins, something that is not scientifically proveable, and is a story that is used over and over again through generations, then you can see that it is a symbolic story. Especially when the symbolisms give you accurate and beneficial guidance to life. Thats what this is all about.
The only reason why I'm saying this is because from what limited knowledge i do know of Ancient Egypt, they believed in alot of wacky things ... they had rituals and idols and mindless beliefs that everyone just went along with because they came from the same town...
Yes, I used to think many of the things were "wacky" until I stopped listening to unqualifies scholars trying to explain a foriegn culture. There is a racist attempt to make all things "old" as pagan and uncivilized to show that Europeans and Chritianity must come save the poor people of the world with "modern" thinking. However the truth is that all cultures went to Egypt to learn.
Regarding rituals, they are very powerful methods of remembering the God's attributes. It involves music, dance, colors, etc. Its like a Coca Cola commercial, you dont just get "buy coke" in black and white, no, you get music, dancing, brilliant colors, magnificent sound effects, etc. We go through rituals all day long for material products and shows, ....the rituals in Egypt are commercials for God. But lets clarify what rituals you were referring to. The "idols" are means fo remembering the attributes, of remembering the path. This is what art should be about, pointing you back to divine guidance, not naked statues promoting lewdness, or statues of sports stars, etc.
similar to Ancient Greece and their version of gods and goddesses...
So what evidence do we have that when AmenHotep said he saw God and fainted that he wasn't being literal? The same temples spoke of wars and lands that he won... why are those not considered analogies too?It could very well be that it is a metaphor and thats how everyone thought of it i honestly don't know and am honestly asking ... i'm just playing devil's advocate in order to distill any doubts in my mind because i think it's harder to be certain about something that happened so long ago...
I think the main thing is just that, there is no way to Prove literal events so long ago...so the only wisdom that can be passed through the ages is symbolic, because THAT can be verified always.
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Peace
Anybody study sufism I love there ideas.There thoughts are beutiful and much of there poetry is uplifting.I especially like the sufi Rumi's poetry.But I dont like Haf'iz's.I like the Sufi belif "thou God is within".I my favirote sufi parable would be the one in which thousands of birds gather around a massive hoopie (mythical bird).The hoopie says he will guide them to a glourius place called simurgh.In order to reach this place and the treasure it contains, the birds must trust the hoopie to the point of death.The birds agree.In order to reach simurgh the travel thru treatucuis valleys like anguish, sorrow, pain, loss, bewiderment, death of logic, emptiness, self annilation.By the end the thousands of birds became 37.The broken and half dead birds arrive at there destination.It is a palace.The go inside and to there suprize find nothing except a mirror in which all 37 birds see themselves.So they were searching for themselves.In fact simurgh means 37 birds peace.
Lareb
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the core concern is regarding the ONENESS of GOD,
the core concern here is that all talk about god is of man, therefore att all times a personal opinion, never anything more.However, he who abstains from talking can listen better and has more of a change to experience him.
Then there is knowledge.
But still no talk, because he who knows, knows that his attempts to convey the inconveyable must fail and will be distorted once again by the dark forces that control humanity. I refer to history for the disastrous consequences.Forget everything learned and stick to the original basic recipe
- Abstain from any form of violence under all circumstances, do and think no harm.
- Allow and ask/pray for guidance
- be happy and make others happy
- do not indulge in physical matters
That's all there is to it, anything more you are meant to do will then be revealed to you.
No clergy needed.