Is the Salat physical?

Wakas

peace AB,

In addition to Kyle's comments above, I want to highlight problems in your method of drawing conclusions.

You CANNOT prove something by quoting a verse and if it uses "sujud" in it for example, say that this proves its a physical prostration. The most you could say is that is has a physical dimension in this sign.

You CANNOT conclude "Therefore Salat is a physical action and includes Sijood" by referencing 2945. For example one could easily say this sign shows "salat" has a real-world impact in how we behave, it doesn't have to be physical.

Also, I dont understand why you capitalise words such as "sujud" when this is a general word in 'al quran' and not a proper name as far as I'm aware.

Please note, I am not saying their is no physical element to "salat" by what I have said above. I am simply pointing out the flaws in the conclusions drawn.

To read my view of "salat", see here.

Wakas

unknownuser

Peace,

Welcome back AB and indeed you have courage and iman.

Thanks bro, I guess we all have Iman with different levels

regarding courage, well I'm glad you know that confronting them needs courage because they will attack you back hard and things can go wrong very easily which happened with my younger sister and about 5 oythers who opposed my accusation to them of committing shirk without being aware, the full story will come soon bro, as I'm still very sick and tired

Salam

unknownuser

Welcome back !! .

I salute your courage and perseverance.. I hope you will succeed in your quest, because this is the true meaning of "jihad" ( EFFORT. An effort to bring the true word of God to the attention of those around you). I gave up on this long ago.

Thanks bro, I don't call it a quest rather a duty to fellow humans who will stand one day like me and gave account regrading their faith, i believe an excuse in this life can be warranted to them but only after they start recognising that their interference to what they inherited is a must to make sure what we inherited is religiously accepted by Allah, most of them don't do that though, they take what they inherited for granted and in the process they commit shirk, so to expose them is to show them the shirk they are committing and this will make things to heat up between all parties involved, it is tough indeed.

I agree that "salat" does have a physical aspect. The act of prostrating to God is the ultimate show of respect and humility to our creator, and serves as reminder to us humans, who often think we are big shots who own the world, of how puny and insignificant we really are compared to It.

There is no doubt bro that it is physical, those who don?t want physical are those hypocrites who can?t perform it, no wonder Allah said the following about the Salat

And seek assistance through patience and prayer, and most surely it is a hard thing except for the humble ones,

(45)

I think it would be better to quote the verses in question , starting from .

Sure

4101
4102
4103

Now I would like your opinion on 4101.
The sectarians interpret this verse as follows If you are traveling a certain distance "X" , then it is OK ( some actually say it is "WAJIB" ) to shorten your prayers ( from 4 "raka3at" to 2 "raka3at" ) They will then seek fatwas from their gods ( mullahs ) , concerning what this distance is. ( The distance is fixed and cannot be changed until the end of time , because their Mullah said so ).

The verse for me means travelling any where there is a lot of Kafiroon, and in that new place Allah is advising us to shorten the Salat, I take it as Allah is telling us to sort of hide it in these Kafiroon lands so we don?t become fitnah

I don?t take any fixed distance by Mullahs, the verse never suggested a distance rather going to a place where there is a lot of Kafiroon, i.e. if we travel a long distance to a land where there is no Kafiroon then the Salat should not be shortned

But the truth is that 4101 is not talking about just any kind of travel..It is being more specific. It's talking about a certain travel that can bring hardship to the faithful, because they will be passing through enemy territory

Exactly

Proof The verse immediately following it, ( 4102 - the one you have quoted ), talks about performing the physical aspect of "salat" in SHIFTS, at times of danger, and assumes that the Prophet is among the faithful. One group would prostrate themselves, while another would guard them, then they would switch roles. The verse also talks about hardships due to extreme weather conditions ( Note here how God ALWAYS uses the word "" in a negative way - this was subject of a debate on an older thread which I cannot seem to find).

Mate, the Rain mentioned is just an example of bad things that may to happen to us, another example was mentioned which is diseases, Allah also mentioned the Matar in a negative manner in the story of Noah where the heavy rain caused his people to drown, so I don?s see any discrepancy in using the Matar in the verse, possibly a heavy rain destroyed their houses and mosques, I don?t know and it seems not of an important issue to me really, I take it that they have any sort of harm that caused them not to be able to carry their weapons.

Is this really applicable today?

I guess it can be in some areas, once I worked in Broklyn with a few jews, in my lunch break I used to read the Quran, one of the jew women working there advised me not to do it because the owner of the shop ?a jew? will be pissed off and sure I didn?t listen and sure they fired me, so If I kept a low profile in these kaifroon land I might have kept my job that was feeding me in the Kafiroon land

I believe Allah also advised us in general not to show ourselves while performing Salat in another verse, it makes great sense to me because the kafiroon can take it as a joke and try to make fun of us then

Can you think of an instance now, in the 21 Century, when we can travel vast distances in air-conditionned / heated cars, of such hardships in travel??

Well bro, if you travel to Australia, I?m sure you will know how hard travel can be, to be in the air for at least 19 hours is one hell of hardship that will weaken most tough ones, the point is, shortening the salat is not due to feeling tired during travel rather due to avoiding to become a fitnah in a land full of Kafiroon

According to the Mullah, if I travel a distance of 18 Kilometers then I MUST "shorten" my prayers ?? How ridiculous is this ? Is driving 18 Kilometers in an air-conditioned car, on an asphalt road, with your cruise control on, and listening to music, the same as riding on a camel's back with the hot desert winds blowing in your face continuously??

Total non sense by the mullah

The only instance I can think of is a case of a civil-religious war, where a person would be travelling in his car in enemy territory, and decides to stop her / his car, get out, and perform a physical prayer in the open.

Quite possible, but for that believer to do it in the open air in the land of Kafiroon will be a great mistake that can put his life in danger

Furthermore, does the verse really say "SHORTEN" your prayer??

I believe so according to the literal meaning of the Arabic word ?Tuqsiro?

If this is true, then the verse is not making sense, since there is no other verse in the Reading ( that I'm aware of ) which states exactly how long the prayer should be - wether in terms of unit "raka3ats" or time in minutes.

Well, while the word mean shorten, I believe the context of the whole verse means to make it unnoticeable, and this can be achieved by doing it quick, also it can be achieved by locking yourself in a room where no one can see you praying and in this case shortening should not be required

The sectarians claim that the verse is giving them a license to shorten their prayers from 4 unit "raka3as" to 2.
This is absurd for 2 reasons

1- Why does travelling 18 kilometers or more give you this license? What's the point?
2- If there is a danger of enemies seeing you, then "shortening" from 4 to 2 will not get you anywhere, because as soon as you are prostrating and not paying attention to your surroundings, you will be killed. So, wether you do 4 "raka3a" or 2, the result is the same DEATH.

Exactly hence I take it as hiding our salat in the land of Kafiroon, and if we can hide it then we need to do it quickly so they don?t see us hence we can shorten it, how we shorten it?, I believe it is up to the indviduals

The sectarians don't seem to understand the second point, because they are interpreting the verse as mentioning travel for the sake of travel. The truth is, that it's not ANY kind of travel which gives you this license, but only when there is DANGER ( enemies ) or extreme weather conditions.

I agree

So I have come to the conclusion that the verse is not saying "SHORTEN" your prayers, but rather it is saying "DO NOT PERFORM PHYSICAL "SALAT" AT ALL ". ( or, more precisley " do not perform the full physical form of salat - the one that calls for prostarting yourself" ).

I believe the verse means to hide it and if we can?t hide it and had to do it in the open then we should do it quick even if we have to shorten it, so the kafiroon may not ridicule us in their land

The word being used is "" . This word can have 2 meanings

If we stress the letter "" It will mean "shorten"
If we do not stress it, it will mean something else entirely... ;D
Do you see what I'm trying to get at?

Actually with or without stressing it means to shorten as far as I understand the language, and btw the shaddah will be on the Qaf not the Sad

My understanding is therefore as follows

1- The verse is talking about changing / simplifying the FORM of the physical "salat" in such a way that it will not include physical prostration, and NOt shortening the unit "raka3as" as the sectarians claim.

I don?t think so bro, the verse for me simply means to do the Salat quick and not extend its time as many humble ones always do, i.e. we should do it quick including prostration, for me Salat has to include prostration, and shortening the Salat as far as I believe has nothing to do with how many Rakaa, I guess the same number stays but we just need to do it quick.

2- This license is to be done only when there is a danger to one's life ( enemies around ) or extreme weather conditions.

I agree only with the hostility of the enemy as a reason to shorten the Salat, weather condition has nothing to do with shortening the salat

3- Having understood the above 2 points, I really fail to see how these verses are applicable in our time.

Your feedback is welcome.

Under my understanding, the verse clearly apply now days

Take care

unknownuser

Peace be upon you AB,

Peace Kyle

Welcome back, lets get to it )

Sure, I hope you don?t get upset as you always do, well, my intention is always clean btw

(4102) And if you were in them, so you started for them the salaat (programming of the spirit at prescribed times),

LOL bro, I guess Mohammad was a programmer, hmmm, I mean like Dr Phil

Hold on bro, Mohammad for you didn?t exit, so please explain to me in hayman terms how a metaphor can program others?

You got me here bro, who is the programmer?, is it Mohammad (the metaphor) or us (the real)?, can you please give me an example of how I can program my spirit, that is if I bloody know what the spirit is from the first place, so please be kind and explain what is the Ruh first, cheers but hayman terms if you don?t mind mate

so a group from them should maintain (...the salaat) with you,

sorry bro, you got this bit wrong, the group mentioned is a group that won?t pray first, even though the verse said ?Stand with you?, it never meant to pray with the prophet, only they needed to stand up to take guard and protect those who will pray with the prophet first

and they should take their weapons/arms,

see, they stood up to take their weapons/arms and protect those who will pray with the prophet first

bro, where is the peaceful Islam here that orders us to pray with weapons, can you please explain to me why ity sounds weird under your interpretation of the peaceful Islam?

so if they prostrated (heared and obeyed as instructed),

mate, do you think I will take what you add to the Quarn in brackets seriously?, well think not bro, because I don?t take any addition to Allah words being from you or any other person on this bloody earth including myself, so for you to say prostrating means hear and obey is baseless and is nothing but a desperate case of wishful thinking by you

so they be from behind you,

that is right, and a child will know it that it means to protect their backs, it does not have to be physically behind them

and another group should come (that) they did not salaat(program the spirit),

here we go, those who didn?t do the physical Salat first need to do it and they will swap

what is in the brackets is simply ignored because it makes no sense from the first place because I challenge you Kyle to explain to me what is the Ruh beyond any doubt and if you do I may believe you that you can program it, which language bro will you use to program it, may I ask?

so they salaat (program the spirit) with you,

again, program the spirit?? Hmmm, it seems every one on earth knows what Ruh is except me,a dumb bum I?m I guess

and they should take their caution, and their weapons/arms;

sounds like a weird prayer to me, how it sounds to you bro?, so I will program my ruh while I?m carrying a gun?

those who disbelieved, wished if you ignore/neglect your weapons/arms, and your belongings/effects/goods, so they lean on you one bend, and no offense/guilt (is) on you if mild harm was with you from rain or you were sick/diseased, that you lay your weapons/arms, and take your caution, that God prepared to the disbelievers a degrading/humiliating torture.

No brackets in the above part?, I guess that part is complete and what preceeded it was not, so you elaborated on it, right?

This verse is no different from the others that mention "sujood". Sujood DOES mean prostration,

I thought you said Sujood means hear and obey?

but as the God is not a physical object to be kneeled to,

any evidence? But please not from the book of the Matrix

we understand prostration to be a metaphor for "hearing and obeying/following instructions".

ok so you stated the following in the shown order

Sujood means hear an obey
Sujood DOES mean prostration
Then you went back to Sujood means hear an obey

Please bro can you choose ONLY one from the above, no cheating man, this is a multiple choice question

The problem for those who think that Salat is nothing but remembering Allah in the mind then 4103 should be a huge problem for them, it clearly tells us that after we finish the physical Salat we should remember Allah while standing, sitting and reclining, i.e. remembering Allah can happen all day long with no physical action required, just in the mind, this is a clear differentiation between the physical Salat and the remembrance of Allah that only happens in the mind ?Then when you have finished the prayer, remember Allah standing and sitting and reclining; but when you are secure (from danger) keep up prayer;", this is because Salat is "surely prayer is a timed ordinance for the believers." i.e. has to happen at specific times.

Salaat, the process of programming the spirit(nafs), deals with MEMORY.

Absoluete non sense, because you don?t know what Nafs is from the first place and no one on earth know what it is so to tell me that everyone on earth has the knowledge on how to program it is nothing but rubbish that carry no logic but a confused wishful thinking, now you are trying to be a bit clever by linking it to the MEMORY, as if this is what we need to work on as a sort of meditation, let me explain why what you said does not stand a grain of logic, in the Quran we read that when we age, Allah will make our memory to fade away, how fair is that if what we suppose to do in our meditations through all our life is to increase our memories?

If we dont REMEMBER what we are suppossed to do, then we will fail when the tests of life come to us.

Like what?, let me make it clearer

Einstein was aware of what he suppose to do even his mistakes, now will he be a winner on the JD or not assuming he never believed in the Quran?

Is our existence means ?this life only? to you or this life and another one after it?

If we dont REMEMBER how to respond,

Then we are doomed when we age because Allah made us to loose our memory as we grow older, how fair is that from our God?

then our emotions will take over and lead us down the wrong path.

I careless about emotions, I only talk logic and practiclaity

However, salaat is not REMEMBERING itself.

Actually it is covering the remembrance of Allah as well

Remembering is the EFFECT of salaat(programming).

The remembrance of Allah is another thing to Salat, however Salat include the remembrance of Allah but the remembrance of Allah does not include Salat.

Therefore, there is no problem with 4103 which says "when you finish the programming,

It is you who just created a problem, because 4103 never said finish your programming, I don?t even thing that the word program was known 1400 years ago

REMEMBER the God standing, siting or reclining".

Yeh but that is not Salat

So the only issue here is the understanding of "sujood", here is an explanation from an article by Ayman

Thanks bro, but bas I stated earlier I don?t take human articles as evidences, I will read it later though

To understand what "sujud" is, let's look at some of the other verses where it is mentioned. For example, similar to 17107, verse 3215 talks about "falling sujudan"

The only people who have faith in Our revelations are those who when they are reminded by them, they "fall sujadan", and they glorify and praise their Lord, and they are not arrogant.

Those who have faith and are reminded of The God's revelations are also mentioned in verse 2573

And those who when they are reminded of their Lord?s verses, they do not fall on them deaf and blind.

When we link 3215 and 2573 together, we can clearly understand that "not falling deaf and blind" is equivalent to "falling 'sujadan'".

Now contrast the reaction of "not falling deaf and blind/falling 'sujadan'" of those who have faith with the reaction of those who do not have faith

And when Our signs are recited to him, he turns away arrogantly as if he did not hear them, as if there is a deafness in his ears. So announce to him a painful retribution.
And who is more wicked than one who is reminded of his Lord's revelations but he turned away from them, and he forgot what his hands had done. We have made veils upon their hearts from understanding it, and a deafness in their ears. And if you invite them to the guidance, they will never then be guided.

Allegorical deafness (not hearing) seems to be a common trait of those who do not fall "sujadan".

The example of the descendants of Israel illustrates that "sujud" is non-physical and clarifies what it really means

258-59. And We said "Enter this town, and eat from it as plentifully as you wish; and enter the door 'sujadan', and say "Our load is removed", We will then forgive your mistakes, and We will increase for the good doers." But the wicked altered what was said to them for a different saying, thus We sent down upon the wicked a punishment from the heaven for what they had transgressed.

7161-162. And they were told "Reside in this town and eat from it as you please, and say "Our load is removed", and enter the gate 'sujadan', We will forgive for you your wrong doings, and We will increase for the good doers." Those who were wicked amongst them altered what was said to them with something different; so We sent to them a plague from the sky because they were wicked.

Notice how the descendents of Israel did the opposite of "sujud" by altering what was said to them instead of hearing it and actually doing it (i.e., obeying it).

Another example of people who alter what is being said is given again in verse 446

From amongst the Jews there are those who take the words out of context, and they say "We hear and disobey, and listen but not let any listen, and look after us", in a twisting of their tongues and as a mockery of the obligation! And had they said "We hear and obey, and listen, and watch over us," it would have been better for them and more upright; but The God Has cursed them for their rejection, they do not have faith except very little.

We can see from linking 446 with 258-59 and 7161-162 that "sujud" is equivalent to "hearing and obeying".

Verses 4101-103 describe ending the /("salat&quot with the "sujud". Verses 56-7 also describe the "salat" and its components and end with "hearing and obeying". Once again, we see that "hearing and obeying" seems to be the equivalent to "sujud".

Youssef's dream and its realization confirm that "sujud" is non-physical and indicate that it means "hearing and obeying". The sun, moon and planets cannot do physical prostration or even show humbleness. However, they could in Youssef's dream hear him and obey him, perhaps by altering their course according to his command. When he raised his parents on the throne, they and his siblings fell "sujadan". How can his parents be "raised" on the throne and at the same time "fall" in physical prostration? Again, the meaning is confirmed to be "hearing and obeying" Youssef and not physically falling to the ground in prostration. Verse 12100 can now be better understood

And he raised his parents on the throne, and they became in a state of hearing and obeying him. And he said "My father, this is the interpretation of my vision from before. My Lord has made it true, and He Has been good to me that he took me out of prison and brought you out of the wilderness after the devil had placed a rift between me and my brothers. My Lord is kind to whom He wills. He is the Knowledgeable, the Wise."

Cheers

unknownuser

peace AB,

Peace Wakas

In addition to Kyle's comments above, I want to highlight problems in your method of drawing conclusions.

Firstly Kyle explained nothing, what he said is compliant with what he always says, total non sense, contradictory, confusing philosophy, words manipulations, and most importantly it has nothing to do with the proper Islam as stated in the Quran, so I have to dismiss all his comment, sorry

Let?s just make it easier and you talk for yourself and explain to me my problems in my method that if I have any method from the first place, cheers

You CANNOT prove something by quoting a verse and if it uses "sujud" in it for example, say that this proves its a physical prostration. The most you could say is that is has a physical dimension in this sign.

Well, what 4103 proved that salat includes sujood, I never stated that sujood is explicit to the salat, what I said that sujood has to be part of the physical salat as the verse showed us, now if people want to perform sujood outside the salat, fine, but that is a different thing that I was not talking about

Here is what I proved again

salat is physical according to 4102 and it includes sujood according to 4102

You sound like one of those who found it really hard to perform the Salat, well, I guess the Quran is talking about you

You CANNOT conclude "Therefore Salat is a physical action and includes Sijood" by referencing 2945. For example one could easily say this sign shows "salat" has a real-world impact in how we behave, it doesn't have to be physical.

I can?t see any relation in what you say, both actions the salat and remembrance of allah should have impact on how we behave, so the physical and mental part exit in both actions hence what is your point?

I guess you are trying hard to create an ideology to drop the physical salat because it is hard for you to do, again, the quran is talking about you, what puzzles me is this

Allah gives full maturity at age 40, and you are half that age, why you are so confident in knowing what Allah means bro? did Allah give you the wisdom so early mate?, I?m not being sarcastic or disrespectful, it is a serious question bro that you need to explain to us before we take you seriously

Also, I dont understand why you capitalise words such as "sujud" when this is a general word in 'al quran' and not a proper name as far as I'm aware.

There is no such thing in Arabic called proper and common names, it is called nouns, and I though any noun in English should be captilised, but no worry, I will do it small letters, it makes no difference to me

Please note, I am not saying their is no physical element to "salat" by what I have said above. I am simply pointing out the flaws in the conclusions drawn.

Then you confused me totally because the verses I brought was talking about salat and one of the physical parts of it which is sujood and we were advised to not to pray all at once so we don?t drop our guards in a hostile environment

Unless you are saying that this verse is non literally sensible then I will look into what you say

Btw again, I?m not discussing sujood in general in here, I?m saying that 4103 clearly indicates that sujood is part of the physical salat

And great that you agree that there a physical salat, so what you are arguing exactly?

Also don?t make it as I?m making up evidences, the verses I brought were the literal meaning of it by others not by me, this is weird man to try to incline as such, I hardly add anything to the quran literal words, in fact if we talk Arabic then I will only talk the exact words of the verses and then you will be able to get it with ease

To read my view of "salat", see here.

Wakas

Thanks, I will later on

Salam

noble

Peace
Welcome back dear Ahmed,
You were sorely missed...
Salam

noble

Peace
idolfree1, why is it that I feel I need to have a PhD in Philosophy and English Literature to understand what you are writing, or is it complete gibberish, or am I a complete ignorantus?... -\

unknownuser

Peace
Welcome back dear Ahmed,
You were sorely missed...
Salam

Thanks dear brother

I hope Idol and Wakas are open minded like ya and don't get offended with my comments to them, there was no hard feelings on my side, I wonder why others take my comments as sort of hard feelings, let's go back to the subject mate, the subject is simple, is salat physical or not, we saw how 4102-103 clealy indicate that it is a physical action, and because we are talking physical action then physical effort is required, and because there will be physical effort required then some may be lazy to do it, and that is exactly what the Quran told us

And nothing hinders their spendings being accepted from them, except that they disbelieve in Allah and in His Messenger and they do not come to prayer but while they are lazy, and they do not spend but while they are unwilling.

(54)

-> See, because of the physical action required to perform salat, some will be Lazy to do it"they do not come to prayer but while they are lazy", " ", i wonder how you become lazy to think about Allah and His signs?

Salam

noble

Peace Bro Ahmed
You know I am not always that open minded, I also tend to be very stubborn, especially if I think to be right... But the fear of Allah reminds me, through signs, and sometimes small punishments not to be arrogant.
I think Believers should cultivate the ability to read the little signs that Allah provides for them in their daily routines, and even in their sleep...
I hope you do not think I have gone crazy, that being said I told you about what you know in a PM.
Enough about me...
Salat is physical and that's the end of it, you have clearly also given two pieces of evidence that makes it impossiible that it is not physical.
When I read what the metaphorists write to explain their stories, I find it that it is more diffciult to prove their claim, than just accept the simpler course. It will be impossible to go and talk to an average arab speaking person and convince him/her of these weird explanations because they go against fitra / common sense. Why would Allah bother to explain into details certain matters if they did not even exist (metaphors), ie, blatant lies.
Really, it is much easier to submit in peace so as to be saved in peace...
Sorry metaphorists, I am a practical man (albeit with the attention span of a mosquito), your metaphors are for books of fiction...
Salam
Noble

unknownuser

Peace be upon you AB,

Sure, I hope you don?t get upset as you always do, well, my intention is always clean btw

My responding with Peace does not mean I am upset

Quote from idolfree1
(4102) And if you were in them, so you started for them the salaat (programming of the spirit at prescribed times),

LOL bro, I guess Mohammad was a programmer, hmmm, I mean like Dr Phil

I dont see the word "muhammadun" anywhere near this verse. But all human beings should be programmers of thier spirit(nafs).

Hold on bro, Mohammad for you didn?t exit, so please explain to me in hayman terms how a metaphor can program others?

Again, I dont see the word "muhammadun" anywhere near this verse. These verses speak to me and all who read them for guidance for thier own spirit(nafs), not as history of someone elses guidance. It is the same "YOU" as in 4101.

You got me here bro, who is the programmer?, is it Mohammad (the metaphor) or us (the real)?

It is us, who all have the potential to be "muhammadun".

can you please give me an example of how I can program my spirit, that is if I bloody know what the spirit is from the first place, so please be kind and explain what is the Ruh first, cheers but hayman terms if you don?t mind mate

Ruh is not what I am talking about. I am talking about NAFS(spirit). In Laymans terms we are talking about your SUBCONCIOUS. Your subconsious holds your conditionings, your emotions, etc. It is always whispering to you what you should be doing, thinking, etc. thats why people sturggle with what they call "thier selves". This is the JIHAD we are talking about. Its that struggle to win the throne back from your subconscious. To take the reins of the chariot and direct your horses(emotions) instead of being dragged around by them wherever they want to go. Do you have things about your behavior that you want to change? Of course you do. How will you change them? By bowing on the ground to some object high in the skies, or will you use the scientfic method of reprogramming the subconscious?

Quote from idolfree1
so a group from them should maintain (...the salaat) with you,

sorry bro, you got this bit wrong, the group mentioned is a group that won?t pray first, even though the verse said ?Stand with you?, it never meant to pray with the prophet, only they needed to stand up to take guard and protect those who will pray with the prophet first

Whatever the case, there is a group maintaining salaat, and a group protecting. In order to program your spirit, you must get into a receptive state. It is the state of merging the conscious with the subconcious, thats why it is at dawn and dusk, the times when day and night merge. As we are told elsewhere, we must GUARD our salaat, we must guard what comes to us in a receptive state. The reason we have bad habits in life now that we need to overcome is because we "sowed a seed" while in a receptive state of mind. TV and RAdio are good instruments at putting you in a receptive state.

Quote from idolfree1
and they should take their weapons/arms,

see, they stood up to take their weapons/arms and protect those who will pray with the prophet first

OK, this does not change anything about what I am saying.

bro, where is the peaceful Islam here that orders us to pray with weapons, can you please explain to me why ity sounds weird under your interpretation of the peaceful Islam?

All this talk about WAR and WEAPONS is METAPHOR. Its the WAR against your lower nature, your emotions, etc. These context in particular is about when you are on a journey, not out in some battlefield where most of mankind wont experience. You see, normally you should be in a nice quiet place, just as Zakariah was in his private chamber maintaining his salaat. But when you are out in the open, you dont want anyone walking up on you while you are in this receptive state. Your NAFS(spirit) is your biggest responsibility in life. How you manage it determines your success or failure in life. (917-10). So you must protect your receptibility from corruption.

Quote from idolfree1
so if they prostrated (heared and obeyed as instructed),

mate, do you think I will take what you add to the Quarn in brackets seriously?, well think not bro, because I don?t take any addition to Allah words being from you or any other person on this bloody earth including myself, so for you to say prostrating means hear and obey is baseless and is nothing but a desperate case of wishful thinking by you

My understanding is solidly supported in this reading(quran) and in life experience. You can continue to get down on your face if you want.

Quote from idolfree1
and another group should come (that) they did not salaat(program the spirit),

here we go, those who didn?t do the physical Salat first need to do it and they will swap

what is in the brackets is simply ignored because it makes no sense from the first place because I challenge you Kyle to explain to me what is the Ruh beyond any doubt and if you do I may believe you that you can program it, which language bro will you use to program it, may I ask?

The Nafs is what I am talking about and it is your subconsious. It is metaphorized as a garden, so you must be the gardner who plants seeds(programs) and protects the garden from weeds. This is easily verified in life, beyond doubt.

Quote from idolfree1
so they salaat (program the spirit) with you,

again, program the spirit?? Hmmm, it seems every one on earth knows what Ruh is except me,a dumb bum I?m I guess

Who said anything about you being dumb? I guess you are setting up the stage so that later on if you lose control of your behavior you will scream that you were called dumb. Well lets be clear that I said no such thing. But what I do say is that you are very stuck on what you have been taught and it is keeping you from even entertaining what might be a better understanding. But I respect your right to your own understanding, without calling you dumb or saying you are crazy.

Quote from idolfree1
and they should take their caution, and their weapons/arms;

sounds like a weird prayer to me, how it sounds to you bro?, so I will program my ruh while I?m carrying a gun?

No, you will just be very protective of your ability to be progranmmed just as you would protect someone in real battle. This is not a War manual. Thats the problem with Al Queida and Hamas and those type of groups, they think this is a war manual, when it is the farthest thing from physical war. We can only defend ourselves. The real battle is with your own shayteen(emotions).

Quote from idolfree1
This verse is no different from the others that mention "sujood". Sujood DOES mean prostration,

I thought you said Sujood means hear and obey?

The word "sujood" means prostrate. It implies "hearing and obeying", it is a metaphor for "hearing and obeying".

Quote from idolfree1
but as the God is not a physical object to be kneeled to,

any evidence? But please not from the book of the Matrix

The God is omnipresent, right? Do you see God? No. Therefore the God is not a physical object.

Quote from idolfree1
Salaat, the process of programming the spirit(nafs), deals with MEMORY.

Absoluete non sense, because you don?t know what Nafs is from the first place and no one on earth know what it is

Thats bad for you if you dont know what the Nafs is. Ho won earth will you be able to purify it and be successful in life as we are told in 917-10?

so to tell me that everyone on earth has the knowledge on how to program it is nothing but rubbish

I didnt tell you that everyone on earth knows what the Nafs is and how it works, very few do actually. And Woe to them, because wether they know they have an "inner garden" or not, wees wil still grow and seeds will still get planted. Its better to take control of your garden then to let it be maintained by TV and Radio and all kinds of foolishness.

now you are trying to be a bit clever by linking it to the MEMORY, as if this is what we need to work on as a sort of meditation, let me explain why what you said does not stand a grain of logic, in the Quran we read that when we age, Allah will make our memory to fade away, how fair is that if what we suppose to do in our meditations through all our life is to increase our memories?

From the moment you are born until the moment you leave this earth, you are constantly being programmed. The God says teh human is created weak, do you know why that is? because you are WIDE OPEN to all kinds of programming. That is why you end up "following what your father followed" because you were programmed by your parents and culture thatyou were raised in. When you mature you should be taking control of thatprogramming, not contiuing to give that control to parents and TV and Radio and your priest and pastor. Yes, and when you get old, and you have not kept your health up, you will lose control of that ability to program youself again. But hopefully by that time you will have worked enough on the proper behavior that even as you lose control of your memory and such, you will still be righteous.

Quote from idolfree1
If we dont REMEMBER what we are suppossed to do, then we will fail when the tests of life come to us.

Like what?, let me make it clearer

Einstein was aware of what he suppose to do even his mistakes, now will he be a winner on the JD or not assuming he never believed in the Quran?

You have to believe in the book called "quran" to be a winner?

Is our existence means ?this life only? to you or this life and another one after it?

I believe in reincarnation, but I am talking right now about this life.

Quote from idolfree1
If we dont REMEMBER how to respond,

Then we are doomed when we age because Allah made us to loose our memory as we grow older, how fair is that from our God?

Let me ask you a question about MEMORY, because you are blowing it so far out of proportion that you dont even realize you are talking about your position as well. If your memory fades like you are talking about, how can you remember to get on the ground and do what you say salaat is doing? How fair is that?

Quote from idolfree1
then our emotions will take over and lead us down the wrong path.

I careless about emotions, I only talk logic and practiclaity

I know you dont care, thats why they continually control you can cause you to get banned and constantly complained about. Why cant you see that?

Quote from idolfree1
However, salaat is not REMEMBERING itself.

Actually it is covering the remembrance of Allah as well

It says clearly that remembering is an effect of salaat.

Quote from idolfree1
Remembering is the EFFECT of salaat(programming).

The remembrance of Allah is another thing to Salat

I did not understand that response, please communicate clearly.

however Salat include the remembrance of Allah but the remembrance of Allah does not include Salat.

Salaat brings rememberance, it is an effect.

Quote from idolfree1
Therefore, there is no problem with 4103 which says "when you finish the programming,

It is you who just created a problem, because 4103 never said finish your programming, I don?t even thing that the word program was known 1400 years ago

Salaat refers to programming. It is "folowing closely" which is IMITATION. If you like how Tiger Woods plays golf, then you practice and practice and practice to imitate his swing, in other words you PROGRAM your spirit to imitate Tiger Woods.

Quote from idolfree1
REMEMBER the God standing, siting or reclining".

Yeh but that is not Salat

Exactly, remembering is the EFFECT of salaat, just like remembering how to swing like Tiger Woods after you have practiced. The effect is done after the proceedure, so it is standing , sitting, or reclining.

Quote from idolfree1
So the only issue here is the understanding of "sujood", here is an explanation from an article by Ayman

Thanks bro, but bas I stated earlier I don?t take human articles as evidences, I will read it later though

OK.

Wakas

peace AB,

Thanks for clarifying.

I can?t see any relation in what you say, both actions the salat and remembrance of allah should have impact on how we behave, so the physical and mental part exit in both actions hence what is your point?

If they were exactly the same thing, they would not be differentiated. Strictly speaking "remembrance" would be done in the mind but it would have a real-world impact, as the sign points out.

Perhaps I can clarify what I meant with an analogy

Lets say a person reads a book about healthy eating, and then actually puts that into practice and this results in being more healthy, more energy, stronger, fitter etc. (i.e. real world changes). So in this example, reading of the book (a physical & mental act) had a real-world impact.

I think the connotation of "physical salat" (as you use it) doesn't imply the above. Thats what I intended to highlight.

There are very few things that dont have a physical dimension considering our body is the vehicle that we use to do stuff. For example, in that case I could say "physical ibadah", "physical zakat", "physical sadaqat"... it just doesn't sound right, or at least not to me. It implies that the act is primarily a physical act, which is not the case because a physical act cannot accomplish 2945 for example. This is an important point to reflect on. In many places in 'al quran' the purpose behind an act is emphasised to be more important than the act itself, hence 2945.

I guess you are trying hard to create an ideology to drop the physical salat because it is hard for you to do, again, the quran is talking about you, what puzzles me is this

Allah gives full maturity at age 40, and you are half that age, why you are so confident in knowing what Allah means bro? did Allah give you the wisdom so early mate?, I?m not being sarcastic or disrespectful, it is a serious question bro that you need to explain to us before we take you seriously

Please see 3030, or the story of Jesus/Joseph etc.

As for your confusion about my view, it may be resolved once you read my article.

And lastly, please try not to make personal comments/accusations about me that are simply unevidenced and irrelevant to our discussion. Lets stick to the topic.

Wakas

unknownuser

Peace be upon you AB,
My responding with Peace does not mean I am upset )

Great Kyle, now I?m feeling more comfortable

I dont see the word "muhammadun" anywhere near this verse.

Come on bro, Allah is clearly talking to Mohammad in the verses, it is not like Allah has to call him by name everytime He talks to him, there are hundreds of verses where Allah is talking to Mohammad and He never mentioned his real name

But all human beings should be programmers of thier spirit(nafs).

What is the spirit firstly bro?

Again, I dont see the word "muhammadun" anywhere near this verse.

According to the Arabic context, the verses are directed to Mohammad as many other verses in the Quran.

These verses speak to me and all who read them for guidance for thier own spirit(nafs),

Actually there is no guidance in the verse whatsoever, the is nothing but a warnoing to those who are already guided

not as history of someone elses guidance. It is the same "YOU" as in 4101.

No guidance in the verses, it is a mere warning for a group that are already guided

It is us, who all have the potential to be "muhammadun".

Haha bro, stop using this weak argument about the Maqam Mohamodan, this is a joke man, please be serious, there is no one in 1400 years reached the level of Mohammad, why is that bro?

Ruh is not what I am talking about.

Excuse me, Ruh = spirit = Nafs = soul , please don?t play with words

I am talking about NAFS(spirit).

Haha

In Laymans terms we are talking about your SUBCONCIOUS.

Thanks for teaching me something, now I know it is called layman not heyman, LOL

Your subconsious holds your conditionings, your emotions, etc.

Well, I donlt know what is the subconscious mind from the first place neither anyone on earth can explain it clearly in layman terms, possibly they can add to the confusion by trying to explain it using some philosophy which is not my interest really, for me most philosophers if not all are atheists bound to hell

It is always whispering to you what you should be doing, thinking, etc.

Oh come on bro, please don?t tell me that you hear some voices as many do, I never heard of such whispering, it is me who is trying to convince myself to do whatever, no whispering no voices

thats why people sturggle with what they call "thier selves".

yeh that?s right, because they can?t get their own mind working properly, possibly they hear voices?, I don?t know, I have no such problem indeed, a good deed is a good deed and a bad deed is a bad deed and it is easy to differentiate between the two ?this is how I see it?, but when I do the bad deed, I?m sure I?m doing it because there is some sort of fun, enjoyment in it, yet I know in advance that it is a bad deed, no struggle here, I chose to commit the sin with full awareness

This is the JIHAD we are talking about.

I agree that is called Jihad Al Nafs, and it can only be successful when humans don?t look forward to the fun and enjoyments associated with a sin

Its that struggle to win the throne back from your subconscious.

Not sure about the throne bro, well, let?s just say it, it is a win because you do what Allah told you to do

To take the reins of the chariot and direct your horses(emotions) instead of being dragged around by them wherever they want to go.

I believe we agree to a degree here

Do you have things about your behavior that you want to change?

Of course

Of course you do.

Lol, honestly I reply as I read your comment, I don?t read it in advance then respond

How will you change them?

Well, the Quran told us that Salat will do just that but it also told us that the remembrance of Allah is bigger in achieving that

By bowing on the ground to some object high in the skies,

Well, I?m not bowing to some objects in the sky, I?m showing respect to the mighty God and yet was not a choice rather obeying what the mighty God told me to do, He ordered me to Asjud Lahu and that is exactly what I?m doing, you on the other hand showing arrogance and I tell you bro Allah hates the arrogant and He is promising them with severe penalty, according to the Quran you are falling fair and square under this doomed category, may Allah save you

or will you use the scientfic method of reprogramming the subconscious?

Haha, which language please?

Can I use VB?

Whatever the case, there is a group maintaining salaat, and a group protecting.

Yes

In order to program your spirit, you must get into a receptive state. It is the state of merging the conscious with the subconcious,

Fine if you insist, but what that has to do with the physical salat mentioned in the Quran?

thats why it is at dawn and dusk,

sorry?, you mean they are two salat?

the times when day and night merge.

sounds like a role playing game to me, did you play Zeldah before bro?

As we are told elsewhere, we must GUARD our salaat,

The verse please

we must guard what comes to us in a receptive state.

The verses please

The reason we have bad habits in life now that we need to overcome is because we "sowed a seed" while in a receptive state of mind. TV and RAdio are good instruments at putting you in a receptive state.

Wow, who discovered that bro?

Dr Phil?

OK, this does not change anything about what I am saying.

But it seems you are talking about something else like meditation I guess but you are not talking about Salat at all, why is that bro?, or let me say it this way, why you are mixing apple with mangos?

All this talk about WAR and WEAPONS is METAPHOR. Its the WAR against your lower nature, your emotions, etc.

Did the verse say that?

These context in particular is about when you are on a journey, not out in some battlefield where most of mankind wont experience.

Yeh sounds like a journey to the unknowns

You see, normally you should be in a nice quiet place, just as Zakariah was in his private chamber maintaining his salaat.

Unfortunately, Zakeriah was not in a state of war with blood thirsty enemy after his head also that proves that salat must be done in specific times, please don?t mix apple with mangos

But when you are out in the open, you dont want anyone walking up on you while you are in this receptive state. Your NAFS(spirit) is your biggest responsibility in life. How you manage it determines your success or failure in life. (917-10). So you must protect your receptibility from corruption.

Great, but what that has to do with the physical Salat

My understanding is solidly supported in this reading(quran) and in life experience. You can continue to get down on your face if you want.

Of course I will continue to do so, because Allah with his ultimate fairness can?t hold this against me or against those who chose to do it if we are wrong, very simple, Allah is not playing games with us , however with you He can hold accountable big times in fact you are doing the exact same as satan did when he refused to bow down, you can continue heading the same way as satan bro, it is your choice and you will be held accountable.

The Nafs is what I am talking about and it is your subconsious.

Nothing to support the aove vague and confusing statement other than some sayings by a few confused philosophers

It is metaphorized as a garden,

Back again to the metaphor thingy

Come on, God must be a metaphor to you then?

so you must be the gardner who plants seeds(programs) and protects the garden from weeds. This is easily verified in life, beyond doubt.

sounds like the fifth sequel of the matrix movies

verified in life, beyond doubt, hmmmmmm, never heard of such verification

Who said anything about you being dumb? I guess you are setting up the stage so that later on if you lose control of your behavior you will scream that you were called dumb.

LOL, I like how you elaborated on it, look bro, I never loose control, I?m always in control indeed, everything I do IS PLANNED in advance

And btw my behaviour is loved by many so why you think I will care about the minority who don?t like it?

Well lets be clear that I said no such thing.

Come on bro, I was kidding, ok I?m not a dumb bum, I?m very smart with very high IQ, how about that?

But what I do say is that you are very stuck on what you have been taught and it is keeping you from even entertaining what might be a better understanding.

Well, it seems you and many like you are stuck in accusing others of being stuck to what we have been taught, please bro, give me a break of such non sense will ya?, it is you who admitted of being a confused sunni before, I never admitted of being one, it is you who is rebelling against what you have been taught after realizing that you have been fooled, this is you own problem bro it was never mine, your anger against what you have been taught made you blind not to see the light within the sunni teaching, for me it is a totally different story, I see the light in all sects and I accept it all, I?m not stuck on something as you and many like you are, what is ironic that most of you are stuck on arrogance against Allah clear words, thinking that because the sunni do as such it has to be wrong, consequently you struggle to find your own interpretation and in the process you come with absolutely laughable ideas that can never be understood nor verified

It is you bro that I can honestly tell you that you suffer from a serious problem that is worse than the sunni problem, on the other hand please take me out of this shucking thingy because I?m no where near that, I was never taught Islam by a sunni, a mullah, a shiae a sheikh or similar, my teacher was my fluency in Arabic only something that you clearly lack btw

But I respect your right to your own understanding, without calling you dumb or saying you are crazy.

While I respect you as a person, I can?t find myself respecting your ideologies that you promote, because you link the Quran to it and in the process you manipulate the clear Arabic words and mislead others who lack Arabic, and it is a duty to oppose and expose the flaws in all your ideologies that you are linking to the Quran, if you leave the Quran out of the picture and just promote your confusing ideas then I have no beaf with you.

No, you will just be very protective of your ability to be progranmmed just as you would protect someone in real battle. This is not a War manual. Thats the problem with Al Queida and Hamas and those type of groups, they think this is a war manual, when it is the farthest thing from physical war. We can only defend ourselves. The real battle is with your own shayteen(emotions).

What Al Qaeda and hams has to do with it bro?, this is total confusion man, we are talking physical salat bro

The God is omnipresent, right? Do you see God? No. Therefore the God is not a physical object.

We can?t see God now because that is part of the test and that is forced on all humans temororily, my child will recognise that bro, therefore if we can?t see Him now, that does not mean He does not exist for real, in fact after the test is finito some winners will be able to see Allah, I hope I will be one of those, on the other hand I don?t see you one of those at all, bad luck mate

22- (Some) faces on that day shall be bright,
23- Looking to their Lord.
24- And (other) faces on that day shall be gloomy,
25- Knowing that there will be made to befall them some great calamity.

(22)
(23)
(24)
(25)

15- Nay! most surely they shall on that day be debarred from their Lord.
16- Then most surely they shall enter the burning fire.
17- Then shall it be said This is what you gave the lie to.

(15)
(16)
(17)

) Thats bad for you if you dont know what the Nafs is. Ho won earth will you be able to purify it and be successful in life as we are told in 917-10?

bro, if you talk quran, you need to walk me through the verses, this is how I will confirm your full understanding to it, don?t be lazy bro, it is great to walk through our God?s words trying to understand it or explain it

Now, Nafs means Soul, in the Arabic language, the word Nafs can be used to refer to the self or the entity of that human or even God, therefore what I don?t know nor any human on this earth know is the real meaning of Nafs = Ruh = Soul = Spirit, that is what I meant

85- And they ask you about the soul. Say The soul is one of the commands of my Lord, and you are not given aught of knowledge but a little.

(85)

I didnt tell you that everyone on earth knows what the Nafs is and how it works, very few do actually.

Hmmm, according to 1785 NO human knows, only Allah knows, so your statement above is wrong

And Woe to them,

Well, I guess the Woe is far more to those who think they know it and the reality is they are living an illusion according to 1785, i.e. they know nothing about it

because wether they know they have an "inner garden" or not, wees wil still grow and seeds will still get planted. Its better to take control of your garden then to let it be maintained by TV and Radio and all kinds of foolishness.

hmmmm, too many variables in your comment that resulted in total confusion on my side, I told you I?m dumb

From the moment you are born until the moment you leave this earth, you are constantly being programmed. The God says teh human is created weak, do you know why that is? because you are WIDE OPEN to all kinds of programming.

Ok, I thought Allah meant by weak like literally weak, it makes more sense to be understood as literally weak for the following reasons

the human are indeed literally weak
the human is weak physically but strong mentally or at least this is how they should be mentally, so if Allah created us weak mentally as you are alleging, how come He holds us accountable?, I think I got you cornered here

That is why you end up "following what your father followed" because you were programmed by your parents and culture thatyou were raised in.

Well, I can?t remember that my parents taught me anything about the religion, I think it was me later on who did that with them, can you please exclude me of your researches?, cheers

Now you may share your inheritance problem with others who suffered from it, I guess you admitted you were an ex sunni, right?

When you mature you should be taking control of thatprogramming,

Good, can you give me an indication of when roughly the age of maturity? thanks

not contiuing to give that control to parents and TV and Radio and your priest and pastor. Yes, and when you get old, and you have not kept your health up, you will lose control of that ability to program youself again. But hopefully by that time you will have worked enough on the proper behavior that even as you lose control of your memory and such, you will still be righteous.

too many variables again bro

You have to believe in the book called "quran" to be a winner?

Are you asking me a question?

Well my answer is yes

How about your answer?

I believe in reincarnation, but I am talking right now about this life.

So how come you clklaime to belive in the God of the Quran?

Bro, you are not an ex sunni, you are an ex Muslim

Now please be aware that when an ex Muslim like you manipulate the Quran you indeed offend those Muslims like me big time so I ask you to refrain yourself from promoting your BS by using the Quran with it, THIS IS A CRIME and unfortunately some Muslims allow it, the day will come when all must give account

Let me ask you a question about MEMORY, because you are blowing it so far out of proportion that you dont even realize you are talking about your position as well.

Me or you who is not realizing what is said on a so called Quran alone forum?

Is it you who claim to be a Muslim and absolutely deny every thing Allah told us in the Quran

you deny hell
you dent the garden
you dent the angels
you deny Allah
you deny the prophets
you deny the JD
you deny Quran

far out bro, a child will easily classify you as a Kafir, I?m sorry to tell you the truth, if it hurts then that means it is the truth and I fear no one when it comes to saying truth

who is not knowing what they are talking about bro?

Do you recognise you Kafir position?

Do others recognise it? if they do, why they fear to confront you with the truth?

I know you dont care, thats why they continually control you can cause you to get banned and constantly complained about. Why cant you see that?

Haha, the banning thingy again, ok let me tell you a true story

I was only banned once from here, the way you are saying it clearly shows how playful you are, as if I was banned many times, LOL

The once I was banned it was really planned, because I?m addicted to this web site, and I had a program that I must finish for the call centre I?m setting up with my business partner (my brother in law) in Egypt, I never managed to finish the program and the pressure started to build, so I decided to be exactly who I?m, actually restraining myself with you guys, look how I?m in control, LOL, so I took the chance of the Pharaoh post after reading pure non sense and responded accordingly regardless I will be banned or not, I wanted to be banned so I finish the program and get a new turbo car ?Mazda 3 MPS? as a present, and all went good bro, I worked hard for a week on that program and before I went to Egypt I bought my new car which will be delivered on October Inshallah, I will get the first Red in NSW, see bro everything was planned, LOL

Yet I consider the banning that happened was unfair and has no merit, but I accepted it as a man and have no problem to accept a permanent ban as well, I can establish myself in any forum that misinterpret the Quran with ease if I want to, however it seems that I have to take it one step further and start writing books that will be authored in three languages and expose all who misinterpret Islam, i.e. don?t ever think that I will keep doing this soap opera thingy on boards in fact it started to get boring to me indeed and I gained what I need to gain from it to move forward

If you are a rev head like me then we can talk cars better than talking Quran because it seems you know nothing about the Quran and you always end up crying

It says clearly that remembering is an effect of salaat.

Another manipulation by you, no surprises, the fact remain intact that you lack Arabic, in the Quran in more than one occasion the Zike of Allah was referred to as something else other than Salat, but I really donlt have time to walk you through the verses, you won?t understand it due to you level of arrogance

I did not understand that response, please communicate clearly.

No need bro, whatever I will be clear, it will never be clear to you

Salaat brings rememberance, it is an effect.

So?

But remembrance DOES NOT bring Salat

Salaat refers to programming. It is "folowing closely" which is IMITATION. If you like how Tiger Woods plays golf, then you practice and practice and practice to imitate his swing, in other words you PROGRAM your spirit to imitate Tiger Woods.

Haha, Tiger woods, sorry I?m an Aussie, can we use Greg Norman instead?

So you want remembering Allah to be like a habit that is done Automatically without thinking, that was a nice try on a joke bro, the problem is, it didn?t make me laugh

Exactly, remembering is the EFFECT of salaat, just like remembering how to swing like Tiger Woods after you have practiced. The effect is done after the proceedure, so it is standing , sitting, or reclining.

Greg Norman please

unknownuser

peace AB,

Peace Wakas

Thanks for clarifying.

No worries

If they were exactly the same thing, they would not be differentiated.

Right, then they are two things, I agree that salat can be considered zikr, but zikr can never be considered salat, do you agree on that?

Strictly speaking "remembrance" would be done in the mind but it would have a real-world impact, as the sign points out.

Same as salat, I have no problem with that, I already stated that I agree with that

Perhaps I can clarify what I meant with an analogy

Lets say a person reads a book about healthy eating, and then actually puts that into practice and this results in being more healthy, more energy, stronger, fitter etc. (i.e. real world changes). So in this example, reading of the book (a physical & mental act) had a real-world impact.

Great, but did I deny that?

I think the connotation of "physical salat" (as you use it) doesn't imply the above. Thats what I intended to highlight.

Of course it does imply the above, in fact the Quran told us exactly that ?Istaino Be Al Sabr Wa Al Salat?, ?In Al Salat Tanha Ana Al Fahshaa Wa Al Munkar?

So why you are saying the contrary to what Allah is saying regarding the physical salat?

There are very few things that dont have a physical dimension considering our body is the vehicle that we use to do stuff. For example, in that case I could say "physical ibadah", "physical zakat", "physical sadaqat"... it just doesn't sound right, or at least not to me.

Great, for many it sounds perfect sense according to the Arabic Quran

It implies that the act is primarily a physical act, which is not the case because a physical act cannot accomplish 2945 for example,.

I didn?t use 2945 to prove that salat is physical, I only used it to prove that it is something else to Zikr Allah

This is an important point to reflect on. In many places in 'al quran' the purpose behind an act is emphasised to be more important than the act itself, hence 2945.

That is what you are trying to twist really, how about twisting this verse then

The Shaitan only desires to cause enmity and hatred to spring in your midst by means of intoxicants and games of chance, and to keep you off from the remembrance of Allah and from prayer. Will you then desist?

(91)

Let?s try and twist this one

Men whom neither merchandise nor selling diverts from the remembrance of Allah and the keeping up of prayer and the giving of poor-rate; they fear a day in which the hearts and eyes shall turn about;

(37)

I guess you are trying hard to create an ideology to drop the physical salat because it is hard for you to do, again, the quran is talking about you, what puzzles me is this

Allah gives full maturity at age 40, and you are half that age, why you are so confident in knowing what Allah means bro? did Allah give you the wisdom so early mate?, I?m not being sarcastic or disrespectful, it is a serious question bro that you need to explain to us before we take you seriously

Please see 3030, or the story of Jesus/Joseph etc.

Please bro, be straightforward and explain to me, I know the story well, what is your point?

As for your confusion about my view, it may be resolved once you read my article.

While I?m not a fan of reading anything other than the quran as proofs, I have to be honest with you bro, I will read it when I have time, I have many things to do every day and Allah knows that every day goes I never finish what I suppose to do, how I go on with the accumaltion, God only knows as I really can?t figure it out yet

And lastly, please try not to make personal comments/accusations about me that are simply unevidenced and irrelevant to our discussion. Lets stick to the topic.
Wakas

sorry of that was the case, I based my accusation on what you said here, your stand is very confusing actually

you stated that you agree that salat is physical then all what you try to prove that it is not, very confusing man

let me try to make it simple so no confusion arise

salat is physical action only
salat is mental action only
salat is both physical and mental action at the same time

please select one bro

my choice is 3

Cheers

noble

Peace Bro Ahmed
I want to intrude on a past comment of yours about
85- And they ask you about the Spirit. Say The Spirit is one of the commands of my Lord, and you are not given aught of knowledge but a little.

Plus that Allah breaths of His Spirit in Humankind conception.
Also that Nafs can enjoin evil.
I undestand that Ruh and Nafs are different.
That Ruh=Spirit amd that Nafs=Soul.
Now here is a possible explanation to the mystery about Allah being closer to Man than his jugular vein It might be due to this fact that each Human Being encapsulates a tiny part of Allah in the form of the Spirit He breathed into him/her...
This is why Allah is always with us whatever we do or wherever we are, like this tiny drop from His Spirit in each one of us is like a device that records everything we think/do/are...etc, and it might probably be imprinted in every single cell of our body because each separate part of our body will be a witness against us or for us on JDay.
Also that the heart of the Believer is the Vessel of Allah, and You do not throw a spear when you throw, but Allah is throwing it (Badr Battle), etc...
And Allah knows best

unknownuser

Peace Bro Ahmed
I want to intrude on a past comment of yours about
85- And they ask you about the Spirit. Say The Spirit is one of the commands of my Lord, and you are not given aught of knowledge but a little.

Plus that Allah breaths of His Spirit in Humankind conception.
Also that Nafs can enjoin evil.
I undestand that Ruh and Nafs are different.

Peace bro

Thanks for your intrusion, I believe my statement regarding the ruh and nafs was not accurate, to be honest I never done perfect researches regarding the two words, but I agree that both words technically are different but virtually can be used to represent each other commonly

That Ruh=Spirit amd that Nafs=Soul.

I?m not going to differentiate between the two Arabic words using a foreign language I agree based on the Arabic language that they must be different words, but believe me both are virtually and commonly used in place of each other, that is why you will see many translators are mixed in how it should be translated

The subject really does not need that much researches because one of them ?Ruh? can never be known and its knowledge is kept within Allah, the other one ?Nafs? can be speculated big times and I believe it some location in the Quran it was used to represent the Ruh as many understood it, so it is simply safer to consider it as the context indicates either ?Ruh? or ?Nafs?, but I?m open to solid ideas

Now here is a possible explanation to the mystery about Allah being closer to Man than his jugular vein It might be due to this fact that each Human Being encapsulates a tiny part of Allah in the form of the Spirit He breathed into him/her...

Possibly, but I just can?t take it firmly due to the fact it will stay a conjecture about Allah, I accept that He is closer to us than the jugular vein without any explanation required, or at least there is a logical explanation for it in the Quran that Allah is able to do anything hence He is closer to us than our jugular vein

This is why Allah is always with us whatever we do or wherever we are, like this tiny drop from His Spirit in each one of us is like a device that records everything we think/do/are...etc, and it might probably be imprinted in every single cell of our body because each separate part of our body will be a witness against us or for us on JDay.
Also that the heart of the Believer is the Vessel of Allah, and You do not throw a spear when you throw, but Allah is throwing it (Badr Battle), etc...
And Allah knows best

While it is a possibility, yet a flaw can be found in it, how come Allah will burn tiny parts of Him in hell?

That is what I found that does not make sense, so I avoid hacking into what I donlt need to know

Salam

noble

Peace again Bro Ahmed
Allah never said that we will know nothing about the Ruh, He said we have been given very little knowledge. This means that we can know a little about it...
Let me give you a parable if you take a drop of water from the Sea, is it the Sea?, still that drop of water retains some aspects of the properties of the Sea, but it is not the Sea, as it has become separate from it...
To Allah the most glorious examples...
When Allah breathed of His Ruh into us, it does not mean that there is a part of Him in us. What it means is that He has touched us with a part of Him, which is completely different. Now that part of Him I believe, which was breathed into us must have to do with The Trust (Amanah). This is why it is so disastrous when people commit abominations, because they are the recipients to such a privilege and responsibility, unlike other creatures who will not be held into account.
Let me give you another better example
Blood donation, somone gives blood to someone else, or better still organ transplant. What was given is no longer part of the owner...
However in the case of the Ruh, I believe the link to Allah also is not severed, but probably gets severed on Jday for those who go to Hell...
For me it makes sense... However I will appreciate if we do some clean and decent research on this...
And Allah knows best as always.
Salam WR WB

unknownuser

Hey bro noble

I'm just about to go out for dinner with the family, I will respond to your comment later on, buit briefly, yes I agree with you that the verse never said that we will never know about it, however no one till now even came close to know about it

Salam

noble

Salam again Bro Ahmed
Well maybe we will be graced by finding a little bit about it...
I am currently reading a scientific book on the purpose of dreams and sleep (using the latest findings in psychiatry, neurology and biochemistry), and it might shed some interesting insights on the Ruh...
The book is pretty hard to read, but if you are interested and when I finish studying it, I can give you a summary of what it found out...

FJ

Peace all,

Welcome back brother Ahmed.

Peace
idolfree1, why is it that I feel I need to have a PhD in Philosophy and English Literature to understand what you are writing, or is it complete gibberish, or am I a complete ignorantus?... -\

... Noble, I guess you already have a PhD in Philosophy and English Literature or at least you are on the way to getting it

May I ask what made you start reading that book? I hope it wasn't Idolfree's gibberish interpretations peace

Salam again Bro Ahmed
Well maybe we will be graced by finding a little bit about it...
I am currently reading a scientific book on the purpose of dreams and sleep (using the latest findings in psychiatry, neurology and biochemistry), and it might shed some interesting insights on the Ruh...
The book is pretty hard to read, but if you are interested and when I finish studying it, I can give you a summary of what it found out...

All the best
FJ

phoenix1

Peace

The problem I see with a ritualistic salat (with the bowing and prostrating to the ground) is that it can't do anything.
We cannot get closer to God by performing a few prostrations. I've seen more than enough people who fall to the ground 5 times a day to praise "Allah" but don't know the difference between right and wrong. So does it really do anything? can we verify that it actually brings us closer to God?
What Kyle (idolfree1) has said makes sense because the purpose of salat is to get closer to/imitate God. And we can only accomplish that by improving our behavior. Programming our subconscious can change the way we do things.

What does programming the subconscious mean, this is what I think
When we walk, we aren't moving all our muscles voluntarily. We aren't thinking about how to balance ourselves, or where to place our arms and legs exactly to move. Our subconscious does that for us. A child learns to walk, and through practice, the "ritual" of walking becomes ingrained in our minds. It becomes so natural that we don't think about it anymore. It's the same when we learn anything. That's why practice is so important. Because you have to go from having to think about doing something (conscious) to not having it come naturally to you (subconscious).
When we watch a movie, or look at a painting, or listen to a piece of music, we may not feel the same as our friends do about it. They may think it's great, but we may think it's a piece of horse shit. Why the difference? it's because of the way we have been Programed and conditioned over the years. We are all programed differently, from the moment we are born. And when we are programed to feel something, we don't have to think about it anymore. When we listen to a piece of music, we don't think about how it makes us feel. It just does it. It's the same thing as learning to walk. Walking just comes to us.
So, you want to learn to talk like Dr. Phil? (I can't think of any reason anyone would want to do that, though) you practice.
But you must be familiar with hallucinations, and hypnotism? Well, the thing is that our brain can't tell the difference between what's real and what not. As long as the brain is receiving signals, it thinks what's happening to us is real. That's why dreams feel real too (until we wake up and realize how stupid they are). This proves that we don't have to practice in real life to achieve results. You just trick your brain into thinking it's real. You basically hypnotize yourself. Like when you are watching a good movie or reading a good book.(you jump up when something sudden, unexpected happens)
Why practice? well, there are things about us that need changing. Maybe we are programed in a way that's not so great. Maybe we are prejudiced against some race. Maybe we get too angry about something. Maybe we don't like Dr. Phil. Whatever it is, we can change it.
We can transform ourselves from what we are now to someone much better. We can find the God who is closer to us than our jugular vein.
Salat is meditation. We use our imaginations to practice. Practice being kind, forgiving, peaceful. Once we have done that, you can say that we have achieved the purpose of salat. We have purified our subconscious. Since there is no bad programming left in us, we can't possibly do anything bad. Since we are now free from evil, we have become servers of God.