Is the Free-mind Islamic Constitution just?
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are you refering to the islamic constitution department? i dont think its balanced simply because that society still upholds islam (by using the quran as source of law) above any other religion which means that non-muslims would still eventually become dominated secand rate citizens. in such a theocratic society you cannot prevent rampant discriminations against the non-believers.
So if we make laws based on a mix of ideas from Plato, Machiavelli, Marx and others that would make it a balanced constitution? Please Doctor...I expected much better from you. You cannot question the 'balance' nature of a law because it comes from the wrong source! You tell me whats wrong with the law...how does it mistreat people? discriminate against people? ignore them? with-hold their rights? deny them freedoms?
The following laws were taken from common sense rather than from any specific religion.
- American constitution
- Canadian constitution
- Japanese constitution
- Australian constitution
- Philippine constitution
And does any of these law mistreat people or discriminate against people? I dont think so. Like my home, Canada. Such a lovely state of multiculturalism. Everybody is happy. Christians, Muslims, Jews, Pagans, Athiests, Black, White, Asian, Male, Female, Gay. Dude, I LOVE IT HERE!!! When it comes to politics common sense is more valuable than religious ideas.
Come forward and question the laws, not the source of the law. And with sound reasoning...real-world reasoning and see if we still don't make sense to you. Relax. Cool down. We are humans like you; not just submitters to God.
Of course. I am merely against attributing common sense laws to a specific religious text. Like ?thou shalt not steal?. This is plain common sense that even isolated pagan tribes implement and it would be very wrong to credit this to.. lets say... the bible. Because by doing so the state would be patronizing one religion over the others which guarantees discrimination among its citizens by which the non-adherents of this state-patronized-religion automatically becomes 2nd or 3rd class citizens. It would not be fair. Agree?
in such a theocratic society you cannot prevent rampant discriminations against the non-believers.
A society that allows complete freedom of belief is a theocratic society?
A society that promotes one religion over the rest is a theocratic society. Right?
i dont know about that yet. i kept asking Layth what he meant by "israeli occupation" but he just ignores me so i cant help thinking that he wants to drive the jews to the sea unless they give in to Layth's proposed solution.
Forget the word 'Israel'. There is a government in Jerusalem that uses copters to kill humans. According to rights granted to every human in our society, which you find theocratic & unacceptable, this government violates their fundamental right to live.
these copters kill terrorist commanders who hide behind women and children. although the killing of civilians were unintentional the colateral casualties had to be risked because the choice was ?them or us?. The palestinians are just pawns here. The power and mover behind them are the arabs manipulators. But hey everyone of them are to blame for this crisis. I just think the arabs are the greater sinners.
If only. Unfortunately its not realistic to the current events.
So you think we are idealists. Well yes we are. We believe that a just, pluralistic, tolerant, peaceful, prosperous world society is possible. Are you going to loathe us for being idealists? twisted
Not me, buddy.
Dear Doctor...you place us in a very difficult position. You criticize the same people we criticize and then you want us to defend them. roll Please wake up. You said before we are 'liberal muslims'. We are not liberal. We are muslims. Muslims to God. Period. And the majority that you call muslims are worshippers of dogma; believing they are doing the right thing by beating up women, murdering apostates, cutting off hands, and so on.
See...we agree with you. They are wrong. Is that difficult to comprehend?
Hmmm this is a bit complicated. You criticize them for using the sunnahs and hadiths. You think that is the problem. I think the problem goes all the way to the quran. A not so ?clear? message which is why you have a problem with this too because your radical translation is quite...questionable. The root of many islamic problems lie with the verses i posted above. The beatings and unjust treatment of women. Even Rashad Khalifa understands the quran the way it was translated above. So what I see is that you guys are unwittingly or unconsciously sugarcoating Islam, thus prolonging a very wrong religion.
But we put a condition the fundamental rights guaranteed by the Quran cannot be abrogated even by a majority vote. Even you should agree that no matter how advanced the society, and no matter what its demands, there are some fundamental rights which are eternal in their essense.
And that is why you are heading for another theocratic state. I wonder whos translation you would be using because according to the ones i posted above it is a fundamental right to do scourge disloyal wives. It is a fundamental right for sons to have double the inheritance given to daughters (which is probably ok in the dark age scenario, but not today when both parents are required to work to make ends meet).
When it comes to morality I adhere to the christian teaching of love and "non-violent resistance".
It is comforting to know that you believe in God.
Err I dont actually believe in God. I am just an agnostic who holds to some christianic values.
Can I explain one thing although you should have noticed it in your study of religions already most religions profess belief in God in some way, and they talk about every person being judged for his works in life.
I believe in the old saying...?IF THERE IS NO GOD THERE WOULD BE A NEED TO INVENT HIM?.
It is an error to say ?most religions profess belief in God in some way?. No they dont believe in God, each believes in A GOD. And each religion?s ?God? is unique from each other. You think by becoming a muslim you are following the God of judaism and christianity? no. Your god is different and their god is different.
Well...surprise surprise...what we are trying to practise is NOT a new religion with NECESSARILY the Quran as guide and Muhammad as prophet. It is the 'original' moral code given to Adam, the same was given to Moses, to Christ, to Muhammad. I believe that Hinduism also emerges from the same 'original' belief in one God, the day of judgement and doing good deeds. And probably Buddha and Confuscious too were Prophets of God preaching this same message.
It is only by faith that you can say that the quran was the ?original moral code? given to adam & moses. You cannot prove otherwise. Joseph Smith prophet of the Mormons also made such a claim and they also cannot prove it. So factually Islam was only born in the 7th century.
So yes...if you too believe in God, if you believe you will one day be judged and you do good deeds (do unto others what you would like to be done to you); you have a very good chance of successfully surviving the shock of death and entering jannah. P
It is fruitful for ME in striving to live a just and compassionate life. If there is a god I hope he credits me for these.
What I would really want to know is what values are there in the quran that are not already being taught in schools and other religions?
You are right. You can learn them from outside the Quran too. Go ahead. We are not stopping you.
uh you wont give any examples of uniquely quranic values?
If you really want to know the 'straight path' to God...the Quran gives you a shortcut. But if you like the longcut and want the uncertainty of life to be your guide...its your choice.
And why the quran, not the bible, or the book of mormons, or the talmud, or the book of dianetics? Where is the evidence for the authority of this book?
I can say for myself...I like this shortcut. It suits me.
what if your ?shortcut? is just an illusion? an illusion that is dark from angles you refuse to see.