a challenge to quran aloners!!!
-
Greetings Samia,
how are you? Your response seems full of logic, on the surface, and this seems to be the dominant trait of you all. You think that your logic is above the guidance and its aspects. Now to deal with your logic and actually show you how fallacious it actually is.
I stated "One cannot separate the Messenger from the Message!!! He is part and parcel to the Message! Without him, we have no message!!! So how can we have the Message without Him?"
In your attempted rebuttal;You stated"The postman delivers our mail. Without him we can't have the mail. He is part and parcel to the mail. Would I go around collecting information about his life from, not a third but a tenth plus party, and believe those stories? Why for? Why would I search his life story in the first place? I have my mail to read, and it's much more important."
Now, had you been receiving mail from GOD, and contained in that mail was the order to obey and follow the mail man, that would change the whole affair, now wouldn't it. You see, you all fail to realize that this is a divine injunction!!! This is not a worldly recommendation. And I am glad that you used that example of the mailman, because that is a pretty CLEAR example! So, since you are not receiving any Divine Mail from GOD, yes continue to read your mail, and carry on. However, for those who want to follow the Qur'an, then it commands us to obey and follow the Messenger (S), so that being the case, I will search His life story, because GOD has made His life story ABSOLUTELY relevant to the Message the GOD revealed. BOTTOM LINE!!!
And think a bit more deeper before you employ sarcasm, because the worst thing is when your own sarcasm is the means of you being the fool.
-
Salaam Abu zahra
I am fine, thank you, still reading "my mail"
(Yes, of course, we received "the mail" from God, via this messenger. The messenger told us that he was sent from God, so we took the "mail" and read it and realized it could only be from God. We believed the messenger. Anytime we had a question, the messenger would answer, but we were not sure. Another patch of mail arrives, in it are our questions and the answers given by the messenger. We trusted him more and we had to obey the messenger on what he taught us, until "the mail" was complete and in it all our questions and all that the messenger said. As the end of all creation, the messenger died, but the message he delivered tells volumes of his honesty and good manners told by God. He did not hide any information and did not lie to us. God bless him).
That's how our fathers should have told the story of their obedience to the messenger.
Time passed and some imposters disguised as good people started to add to what the messenger said. I was not there when the messenger gave the replies, but I have a record of them in the "mail". Should I believe those people? Has God asked me to follow/believe/ obey the messenger through some people (I do not even know if they existed or not), just because they said that their father told them that his friend had a neighbour who happened to have travelled with the cousin of the friend of a friend of the prophet who told this friend who told his other friend who told his cousin who was travelling with the neighbour who was the friend of their father....where was I?
It doesn't even sound true! How would someone remember what his dead father said, let alone what was told to his father? Be realistic!
Obey the messenger means obey him first hand. No intermediaries.
And this is no sarcasm. Want real sarcasm? Read hadith.
-
I share completely Samia's view on the Messenger. Plus, obeying him was probably a temporal command, one that couldn't be applied litterally but when he was alive and the leader of Muslims. His orders, had they made it to our time, were for his time and place.
re Adam and Eden, I always understood the Adam's sin and his departure from Eden as two different stories. He was forgiven for the first, the second was an honor to mankind who, made at the image of God (or to be more accurate, contains something of His spirit), was to be the Regent of this world.
In the same thread of things different from Christianity, I like the moral ambiguity of the Quranic story of Satan. Satan was cursed because he refused to bow down unto Man, an imperfect being who does mischief, and he took it upon himself to prove it.
-
Greetings Samia;
you want to hear some irony, that will that will shatter your story, IT IS, THAT THE QUR'AN WAS PASSED DOWN THE SAME EXACT WAY. THE REASON THAT WE HAVE THE QUR'AN IN TACT TODAY IS BECAUSE PEOPLE TOOK IT TO MEMORY, THE ENTIRETY OF IT. LEARNED IT RULES OF RECITATION, AND SAT DOWN WITH A SCHOLAR, WITH PASSED ON TO HIM THE EXACT RECITATION OF THE QUR'AN THAT HE RECEIVED FROM A SCHOLAR, WHO TOOK IT FROM ANOTHER SCHOLAR, WHO TOOK IT FROM YET ANOTHER SCHOLAR WHO TOOK IT FROM THE LIKES OF PEOPLE WHO LIVE DURING THE TIME OF BUKHARI AND OTHERS WHO TOOK IT FROM THE STUDENTS OF THOSE WHO LEARNT FROM THE STUDENTS OF THE COMPANIONS WHO TOOK IT FROM THE STUDENTS OF THE COMPANIONS THEMSELVES, WHO TOOK IT DIRECTLY FROM THE COMPANIONS, WHO TOOK IT FROM MESSENGER OF ALLAH (S), WHO RECEIVED IT FROM THE ANGEL JIBRIL, WHO WAS ENTRUSTED WITH IT BY ALLAH. ALLAHU-AKBAR!!!
This is how this knowledge was carried from one generation to the next with careful preservation of transmission. So, suit yourself not to believe it, but it is true!!! Just come to the real word and open up your eyes.
And in due time, I am going to post, some Ayat from the Qur'an that if you are not grounded in knowledge and faith, they would make one think that what you say about the Hadith. Again, truth is not based on your inadequate reason!!! It is based on truth, no matter how absurd it may sound to you.
-
Greetings Abu Zahrah,
you want to hear some irony, that will that will shatter your story, IT IS, THAT THE QUR'AN WAS PASSED DOWN THE SAME EXACT WAY.
Did you forget one important difference? hmm
The Qur'an was written/compiled under the Prophet's careful scrutiny. This is many of our point of contention with the hadith.
-
Greetings Samia;
you want to hear some irony, that will that will shatter your story, IT IS, THAT THE QUR'AN WAS PASSED DOWN THE SAME EXACT WAY. THE REASON THAT WE HAVE THE QUR'AN IN TACT TODAY IS BECAUSE PEOPLE TOOK IT TO MEMORY, THE ENTIRETY OF IT. LEARNED IT RULES OF RECITATION, AND SAT DOWN WITH A SCHOLAR, WITH PASSED ON TO HIM THE EXACT RECITATION OF THE QUR'AN THAT HE RECEIVED FROM A SCHOLAR, WHO TOOK IT FROM ANOTHER SCHOLAR, WHO TOOK IT FROM YET ANOTHER SCHOLAR WHO TOOK IT FROM THE LIKES OF PEOPLE WHO LIVE DURING THE TIME OF BUKHARI AND OTHERS WHO TOOK IT FROM THE STUDENTS OF THOSE WHO LEARNT FROM THE STUDENTS OF THE COMPANIONS WHO TOOK IT FROM THE STUDENTS OF THE COMPANIONS THEMSELVES, WHO TOOK IT DIRECTLY FROM THE COMPANIONS, WHO TOOK IT FROM MESSENGER OF ALLAH (S), WHO RECEIVED IT FROM THE ANGEL JIBRIL, WHO WAS ENTRUSTED WITH IT BY ALLAH. ALLAHU-AKBAR!!!
Salaam Abu zahra
So, this is your last straw, to tell me that the quraan was written more than a century after the death of the prophet? It is a straw that breaks the back of the faith in the quraan of whever believes in it, not my faith in it, because I don't believe in this nonesense.
If I ever believed that the quraan was transmitted the way hadith was, and that its fallibility/infalibility is equal to that of the hadith, I would believe that the prophet was not doing his job, and that God was not telling the truth when He described him as of great manners. It wont make me believe in the hadith, but would make me reject the quraan as well. Isn't this what the hadith is aiming at?
This is how this knowledge was carried from one generation to the next with careful preservation of transmission. So, suit yourself not to believe it, but it is true!!!
True?!!! Because you say so? Or is it the invention of the same group of criminals who want to smear the quraan to advance the hadith?
-
Peace
THAT THE QUR'AN WAS PASSED DOWN THE SAME EXACT WAY
First of all you are greatly mistaken, you should study your own history. But let's ASSUME you are right.....
i don't think you understand the difference that the quran passes the tests for us, while the hadith doesn't. The hadith makes muhammad look like a bloody terrorist, that's why people like me don't believe in that utter nonsense. It doesn't matter how the information was contrived so much, but WHAT the information is... if the Quran contained uttered nonse, stupid sciences, etc.... it would also fail the test.... After all any book can say it's from God and call itself the Quran, it has to be verified, Quran passes the test while the hadeeth books fail it with flying colors.
-
Peace
First of all you are greatly mistaken, you should study your own history. But let's ASSUME you are right.....
i don't think you understand the difference that the quran passes the tests for us, while the hadith doesn't. The hadith makes muhammad look like a bloody terrorist, that's why people like me don't believe in that utter nonsense. It doesn't matter how the information was contrived so much, but WHAT the information is... if the Quran contained uttered nonse, stupid sciences, etc.... it would also fail the test.... After all any book can say it's from God and call itself the Quran, it has to be verified, Quran passes the test while the hadeeth books fail it with flying colors.
Not to mention contradictions and the Quran being completely against the idea of having a separate source for laws regarding the deen
-
I think people who don't believe in bukhari & co they are just jealous of great work of those great scholars. Just imagin if you take out the work of bukhari & co. what religion muslims have to follow? I cannot understand these so called quran aloners why they want to make life difficult for the muslims. Please have mercy on the muslims, you have to understand without bukhari & co. they would have no religion to follow! They are already terrorists and when they have nothing to follow they are free and could be more dangerous. May God give some wisdom to all of you.
SubhanAllah
-
I think people who don't believe in bukhari & co they are just jealous of great work of those great scholars. Just imagin if you take out the work of bukhari & co. what religion muslims have to follow? I cannot understand these so called quran aloners why they want to make life difficult for the muslims. Please have mercy on the muslims, you have to understand without bukhari & co. they would have no religion to follow! They are already terrorists and when they have nothing to follow they are free and could be more dangerous. May God give some wisdom to all of you.
SubhanAllah
I haven't been on in a while, I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. No offense, I really can't tell
-
Ilisa, how are you,
I am sad to inform you that this statement of yours;
"Did you forget one important difference?
The Qur'an was written/compiled under the Prophet's careful scrutiny. This is many of our point of contention with the hadith.
IS NOT ACCURATE!!!
THE QUR'AN IN WRITTEN FORM WAS NOT AT ALL COMPILED INTO A MUSHAF (FOR A LACK OF BETTER WORDS, 'BOOK FORM' DURING THE LIFE OF THE MESSENGER (S). RATHER, THIS OCCURRED DURING THE TIME OF ABU BAKR, THE KHALIFAH OF THE MESSENGER OF ALLAH (S). SO PLEASE READ YOUR HISTORY, OH I FORGOT YOU ONLY READ THE QUR'AN, SO YOU HAVE NO ACCESS TO THE HISTORY THEREOF.
-
Ilisa, how are you,
I am sad to inform you that this statement of yours;
"Did you forget one important difference?
The Qur'an was written/compiled under the Prophet's careful scrutiny. This is many of our point of contention with the hadith.
IS NOT ACCURATE!!!
THE QUR'AN IN WRITTEN FORM WAS NOT AT ALL COMPILED INTO A MUSHAF (FOR A LACK OF BETTER WORDS, 'BOOK FORM' DURING THE LIFE OF THE MESSENGER (S). RATHER, THIS OCCURRED DURING THE TIME OF ABU BAKR, THE KHALIFAH OF THE MESSENGER OF ALLAH (S). SO PLEASE READ YOUR HISTORY, OH I FORGOT YOU ONLY READ THE QUR'AN, SO YOU HAVE NO ACCESS TO THE HISTORY THEREOF.
http//bani.anime.net/o_rly.jpg
075.016
YUSUFALI Move not thy tongue concerning the (Qur'an) to make haste therewith.
PICKTHAL Stir not thy tongue herewith to hasten it.
SHAKIR Do not move your tongue with it to make haste with it,075.017
YUSUFALI It is for Us to collect it and to promulgate it
PICKTHAL Lo! upon Us (resteth) the putting together thereof and the reading thereof.
SHAKIR Surely on Us (devolves) the collecting of it and the reciting of it.075.018
YUSUFALI But when We have promulgated it, follow thou its recital (as promulgated)
PICKTHAL And when We read it, follow thou the reading;
SHAKIR Therefore when We have recited it, follow its recitation.075.019
YUSUFALI Nay more, it is for Us to explain it (and make it clear)
PICKTHAL Then lo! upon Us (resteth) the explanation thereof.
SHAKIR Again on Us (devolves) the explaining of it. -
Greetings Samia;
You stated that;
"If I ever believed that the quraan was transmitted the way hadith was, and that its fallibility/infalibility is equal to that of the hadith, I would believe that the prophet was not doing his job, and that God was not telling the truth when He described him as of great manners. It wont make me believe in the hadith, but would make me reject the quraan as well. Isn't this what the hadith is aiming at?"
Well, believe as you wish but this is the history of the Muslim Ummah and their method of transmitting knowledge. The problem is, that you people don't study history, and this is non-Muslim or Muslim history. And if and when you do, it is more than likely non-Muslim history to attack Muslim history. You people have sadistic mentalities towards the tradition of what you say you believe in. It is all madness. But the truth, is what it is, and you won't be able to ever find it out, because you are all trapped in you own little world apart from the reality.
There has occurred a whole legacy of scholastic, medicinal, scientific, political, military, social sciences, psychology, that stemmed from the history of the early communities. Universities were built, science was developed, literary masterpieces, art and you name it, all coming out of this tradition, and you people have no access to it, because of your ignorance and arrogance. Go and google Islamic art, Islamic science, Islamic calligraphy, Islamic medicine, Islamic, Islamic, Islamic and study the beautiful legacy of the Muslims. Yes there is ugliness there too, when people abuse the power they are entrusted with, but that is the case in almost everything, so there is no need to even bring that indictment against Islam. That indictment is against man!
My point in all this, when you disconnect yourself from the whole tradition of Islam, you have nothing but a bunch of people trying to make sense out of A Divine Revelation, with no historical access. So you get absurd comments, like you get in this forum about the Qur'an and I have listed them in earlier post.
-
Jack;
you stated;
"First of all you are greatly mistaken, you should study your own history. But let's ASSUME you are right....."
Is this you disclaimer; "BUT LETS ASSUME YOU ARE RIGHT".
Bring me the history of the Qur'an after, immediately after the death of the Messenger of ALLAH (S) then? This is a challenge to you and the rest of the chorus here. Please anyone bring it!!! Those of you who had the unfortunate experience of reading history, right? KNOW, that the preservation of Qur'an was through widescale memorization of it and passing it on. This was even the case during the life of the Messenger (S), since many of the sahaba could not read anyway. Nor could the Messenger (S) read, so how was he checking the authenticity of the Qur'an? It sure was not by READING IT!!! It was through recitation. And I know, I just know that one of you great scholars of foolishness, wants to quote the first revelation of Surah 96; where the command was Iqra. Well, although the word Iqra does convey the meaning of reading, it also means to recite. And thats why the name for a person who has learned the Qur'an by heart and maybe leads the prayer or teach Qur'an, is called a Qaari, a reciter, not a reader! Yes, the Qur'an was also written down by those who knew how to write, but this was not the main method of passing it on nor preserving it. And that is just the truth of the matter.
-
Openminded;
Please my friend, open your mind!!!
What part of this don't you understand? Tell me, and I will try to help, stop just sending post trying to refute , while not at all understanding what was posted.
You said;
"Not to mention contradictions and the Quran being completely against the idea of having a separate source for laws regarding the deen"
The commands of the Messenger (S) is not separate from the intent of the Qur'an. Yes it is separate in script, in text, but no in intent. Please listen, or read what ALLAH has stated in the Qur'an
"...And let those who oppose THE MESSENGER'S COMMANDMENTS beware, lest some trials befall them or a painful torment be inflicted upon them"..
Can you see now, ALLAH says, "oppose the Messenger's Commandments". ALLAH didn't say ALLAH's Commandments, but the Messenger's Commandment. Well what are the Messenger's Commandments and where are they, because we know that they are not in the Qur'an, because only the commandments of ALLAH is in the Qur'an. So what and where is the Messenger's commandments? Please answer that, because no-one has yet.
-
Openminded;
Please my friend, open your mind!!!
What part of this don't you understand? Tell me, and I will try to help, stop just sending post trying to refute , while not at all understanding what was posted.
You said;
"Not to mention contradictions and the Quran being completely against the idea of having a separate source for laws regarding the deen"
The commands of the Messenger (S) is not separate from the intent of the Qur'an. Yes it is separate in script, in text, but no in intent. Please listen, or read what ALLAH has stated in the Qur'an
"...And let those who oppose THE MESSENGER'S COMMANDMENTS beware, lest some trials befall them or a painful torment be inflicted upon them"..
Can you see now, ALLAH says, "oppose the Messenger's Commandments". ALLAH didn't say ALLAH's Commandments, but the Messenger's Commandment. Well what are the Messenger's Commandments and where are they, because we know that they are not in the Qur'an, because only the commandments of ALLAH is in the Qur'an. So what and where is the Messenger's commandments? Please answer that, because no-one has yet.
You did not quote the verse so I had to google it myself. What I found was verse 2463, in which the translation you posted is a mistranslation. Here is the real 2463 (If you quoted a different verse tell me please)
Sher Ali
Treat not the calling of the Messenger among you like the calling of one of you to another. ALLAH indeed knows those of you who steal away covertly. So let those who go against HIS command beware lest a trial afflict them or a grievous punishment overtake them.Shakir
Do not hold the Apostle's calling (you) among you to be like your calling one to the other; Allah indeed knows those who steal away from among you, concealing themselves; therefore let those beware who go against his order lest a trial afflict them or there befall them a painful chastisement.Pickthall
Make not the calling of the messenger among you as your calling one of another. Allah knoweth those of you who steal away, hiding themselves. And let those who conspire to evade orders beware lest grief or painful punishment befall them.Sale
Let not the calling of the Apostle be esteemed among you, as your calling the one to the other. God knoweth such of you as privately withdraw themselves from the assembly, taking shelter behind one another. But let those who with-stand his command, take heed; lest some calamity befall them in this world, or a grievous punishment be inflicted on them in the life to come.Palmer
Make not the calling of the Apostle amongst yourselves like your calling one to the other; God knows those of you who withdraw themselves covertly. And let those who disobey his order beware lest there befall them some trial or there befall them grievous woe.Arberry
Make not the calling of the Messenger among yourselves like your calling one of another. God knows those of you who slip away surreptitiously; so let those who go against His command beware, lest a trial befall them, or there befall them a painful chastisement.Khalifa
Do not treat the messenger's requests as you treat each others' requests. GOD is fully aware of those among you who sneak away using flimsy excuses. Let them beware - those who disobey his orders - for a disaster may strike them, or a severe retribution.La tajAAaloo duAAaa alrrasooli baynakum kaduAAa-i baAAdikum baAAdan qad yaAAlamu Allahu allatheena yatasallaloona minkum liwathan falyahthari allatheena yukhalifoona AAan amrihi an tuseebahum fitnatun aw yuseebahum AAathabun aleemun
As you can see, "the messenger" is mentioned once in this verse. "Allah" is mentioned after that. And "his" (NOT "the messenger's" proceeds after "Allah" is mentioned. It is clear that "His" refers to God. Even if we assume it is referring to the messenger, this in no way is objective evidence to prove that we should follow hadith (separate laws regarding the deen). To argue we need to follow hadith is to argue that Muhammad had wahi outside of the Quran and this is absurd.
But you asked for a response and I gladly responded to the unquoted mistranslation.
Peace
-
Greetings Abu Zahrah,
I'm fine, thank you.
Ilisa, how are you,
I am sad to inform you that this statement of yours;
"Did you forget one important difference?
The Qur'an was written/compiled under the Prophet's careful scrutiny. This is many of our point of contention with the hadith.
IS NOT ACCURATE!!!
THE QUR'AN IN WRITTEN FORM WAS NOT AT ALL COMPILED INTO A MUSHAF (FOR A LACK OF BETTER WORDS, 'BOOK FORM' DURING THE LIFE OF THE MESSENGER (S). RATHER, THIS OCCURRED DURING THE TIME OF ABU BAKR, THE KHALIFAH OF THE MESSENGER OF ALLAH (S). SO PLEASE READ YOUR HISTORY, OH I FORGOT YOU ONLY READ THE QUR'AN, SO YOU HAVE NO ACCESS TO THE HISTORY THEREOF.
Ah come on, why resort to all the red text and all? Are you screaming at me?
Anyway...You can say that what I understand is, indeed, not likely to 'be accurate' according to your yardstick. And for your information, I was 'devoutly' following the sunni religion for 18 years. I studied by myself, I was in study groups at our local masjid. I was in charge of a small Islamic weekend school. I gave talks at our university. I did several 'Islam Awareness Week activities over the years, etc. etc.
I came to Islam from a Christian background through reading the Qur'an. Its beauty and its message touched my soul in a very deep way. However, after getting caught in the mire of 'hadith' land I became very depressed. I thought I must not be doing enough, so I later even became a follower of Sheikh Nuh Keller for a while. And I did all that I was 'supposed' to do, but I kept sinking deeper and deeper into the mire, until the depression was so bad, I couldn't even make my own decision of which tomatoes to pick up to buy at the supermarket. I came to not trust my own decision making capabilities. I said tons of dua and surahs at fajr, before I did this or that, and before I went to bed for my protection and the protection of my kids. I did tauba.... you name it. But all of that did not give me peace in my heart. I truly tried the best I could to follow the religion as it is taught by the Arabs and nonetheless I continued to sink deeper and deeper into a state of despair. My once successful life was now just a drudgery of struggling to survive.
So..... I really don't appreciate you assuming that I don't know this or that... Sure, I admit I'm not a 'scholar' and I certainly didn't memorize hadith or history, but I did memorize a pretty fair portion of the Qur'an and I've learned Arabic. Also, I do study and think on a daily basis. What I say now does not come from a stand point of blunt ignorance. It comes from having given the system a good try and seeing that it doesn't work. I had seen the beauty in the Qur'an at first, but I lost that awe and wonder in God's wisdom when I started following mankind and what mankind said I should do.
Thank you for the opportunity to clarify my stance. sun
Have a good day.
-
Peace,
History says the Quran was written on small pieces of stone, leaves and other poor mediums. The Quran says
Fee raqqin manshoorin
523 Written on fine parchment, unrolled, open for everyone to read,
widely published.