a challenge to quran aloners!!!

ade_cool

Salam Abu Zahrah,

But please answer my initial question before you start attacking Imam Bukhari.

I have no intention to attack Bukhari. But I would like to state clearly that I have BIG BIG problem to believe that Shahih Bukhari is authentic from Bukhari and at the same time believe that Bukhari is muslim. The reasoning will follow ...

Regarding your questions

On what premise do you accept the Qur'an?

I believe quran is divine revelations from God.

Do you fully believe in the Qur'an and everything it states or partially or what?

Fully.

Do you believe in fulfilling the injunctions of the Qur'an or is it just a nice reading?

I believe quran is applicable and not just a nice reading.

How do you see the Prophet Muhammad (S) in relation to the Qur'an

Prophet Muhammad received the revelations which is quran. I believe the prophet himself did not understand all the meanings of quran. He did explain quran to the best of his knowledge and this is why he prohibited the writing of anything from him except quran.

Do you see the Prophet Muhammad (S) as essential as Muslim or not?

I respect prophet Muhammad. However, unlike sunnis and shias who love him to the extent of associating him as God's partner, I don't. Brother, please keep in mind that Muhammad is ONLY a messenger. If he passed away or was killed, do you turn back?

Shahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 82, Number 816

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas

'Umar said, "I am afraid that after a long time has passed, people may say, "We do not find the Verses of the Rajam (stoning to death) in the Holy Book," and consequently they may go astray by leaving an obligation that Allah has revealed. Lo! I confirm that the penalty of Rajam be inflicted on him who commits illegal sexual intercourse, if he is already married and the crime is proved by witnesses or pregnancy or confession." Sufyan added, "I have memorized this narration in this way." 'Umar added, "Surely Allah's Apostle carried out the penalty of Rajam, and so did we after him."

I believe in quran so if I were Bukhari, I would surely throw away that hadith when I collected hearsays from the people in my time. Only if I have doubt regarding the authenticity of quran then I will consider that hadith to be true. Now explain to me why Bukhari did include this hadith in his Shahih Bukhari?

Katara

Salaam Katara;

That is basically correct, and let me ask you a question to make it more clear to you. DO you pray? Do you intend to make hajj? do you fast? Do you wish to pay zakah? All of these are commands from ALLAH in the Qur'an, right? That is correct? Now, how would you know how to act out these commands, since none of them are explained in detail in the Qur'an? The Qur'an in these matters gives us the command of what we must do, but not how. While the Sunnah shows us how to fulfill the injunctions of the Qur'an. They go together. The Sunnah complements the Qur'an. And if we want to fully obey ALLAH by doing what HE has required of us, we must look into the life of the Messenger (S), which is found in the authentic Sunnah. That is all I am saying, and this is not from me, this is what the Deen is, despite what is posted in these threads on this site. I hope I helped in this matter, and may ALLAH continue to guide you and bless you.

Ma Salaam

salam abu,

ah, i see. So the premises that supports your main points aresorry, it is a habit of my to paraphrase and summarize stuff--it is my way of learning, no offend p)

we have no adequate knowledge on such topics (hajj, fast, zakah etc)
(the italic part-- i wish to know, is that a fact or an assumption based on limited knowledge of yours?)
The ayat that says, obey God and obey messenger.

Is there more that i should know? thanks! Ouhhh, and just wanna tell you i appreciate the clear and short reply of yours.

with respect,
aimi

edited because i misunderstood sumthing.

Abu_Zahrah

As Salaamu Alaikum

Katara, thank you for the response.

Now, to your post, no I am not saying that we have no adequate knowledge, the Qur'an does provide us with such, however, the finer details of these matters ALLAH leaves out of the Qur'an and guides the Messenger (S) in Sunnah to complete it. There are literally tens of places where ALLAH commands us to pray, and places where ALLAH mentions certain positions of the prayer, however, the details of the prayer, the rules of the prayer is covered by ALLAH through the Sunnah of the Messenger (S). Here Katara, understand this. The Sunnah of the Messenger is part of the guidance from ALLAH! No, it is not part of the Qur'an, but it is part of the complete guidance. For ALLAH raised up the Messenger (S) to guide the people through Him (S). And this entails Him (S) reciting to us the Qur'an and teaching the Qur'an and His (S) Sunnah. Because His (S) Sunnah is a further clarification of the Qur'an. And I already gave you examples before like praying and hajj etc.

As for the Ayat that commands us to obey the Messenger (S), this is in all matters! But all of the matters that the Messenger (S) dealt with and taught us in not contained in the Qur'an. Why? Because, and follow this point closely. The Qur'an is emphatically the words of ALLAH Alone!!! And there is no equivalent word with HIS!!! While in the Sunnah, we not only find the words of ALLAH, we also find the words and actions of the Messenger (S) as it related to the affairs of the Muslims. But this is from the guidance ALLAH also, and this is where we apply the injunction to obey and follow the Messenger (S). Do you understand.

It is important to understand that the Messenger (S) had many roles to assume and guide the people in. He was a judge, He was General, He was a teacher and on like that, so much was coming from Him (S), and in all these aspects ALLAH was guiding Him!!! So take from His (S) Sunnah, because in doing so, you will truly be following the Qur'an, and if you leave off His (S), you can never truly follow the Qur'an!!!

Ma Salaam

ILisa

There are literally tens of places where ALLAH commands us to pray, and places where ALLAH mentions certain positions of the prayer,

Greetings Abu Zahrah,

Please tell me, how is it that the birds and the mountains 'pray'? And God 'prays' to the messenger?......

Also, lots of fruits are mentioned in the Qur'an, if I put them all in one bowl, I can have fruit salad. But making and eating fruit salad was never required of me by God.

Just some more 'food' for thought......

hlatif

Salaam Ilisa,

The Qur'an came to people. It asks people to pray. It tells us that all creation prays. How they pray is not our business. How we pray, is our business.

God does not say that He "prays to" the messenger. The terms are "Salla Ala" and literally means

He makes Salat happen upon the messenger
.

It can be understood in many ways but NEVER as praying to the messenger.

The Qur'an does not mention fruit salad, but you eat it. Then why not read hadeeth as well? Or you do not do anything that is not mentioned in the Qur'an?

Take care and have a great day.

Hussein

ILisa

Greetings Hussain,

How they pray is not our business. How we pray, is our business.

With you 100%. How I pray is my business. How you and the birds, etc. pray is not mine.

God does not say that He "prays to" the messenger. The terms are "Salla Ala" and literally means.

It can be understood in many ways but NEVER as praying to the messenger.

My understanding exactly.

The Qur'an does not mention fruit salad, but you eat it. Then why not read hadeeth as well? Or you do not do anything that is not mentioned in the Qur'an?

I do and have read hadith extensively. Why makes you suppose that I don't or haven't?? I do a LOT of things not mentioned in Qur'an, but I know of some people who strive to not do anything not mentioned in the hadith.

Good day to you!

hlatif

Salaam Ilisa,

With you 100%. How I pray is my business. How you and the birds, etc. pray is not mine.

The implication of the Ayat is that birds who are alike, pray like each other. So, if you and I are humans, then we are expected to pray alike, especially when there is something called congregational prayer on Fridays. You do not expect people to come friday and pray in a thousand different directions using the clause "How I pray is my business". Islam is about improving the individual as he or she lives in a society of people who accept the same system and within the wider human society. Islam is not a religion of an individual who lives only alone.

I do and have read hadith extensively. Why makes you suppose that I don't or haven't?? I do a LOT of things not mentioned in Qur'an, but I know of some people who strive to not do anything not mentioned in the hadith.

I do apologize if my post suggested that you have not read the hadeeth, then I am sorry. That definitely was not my intention. I will also not defend a person who lives by hadeeth alone. However, you cannot deny the fact that some people here will limit themselves out of the hadeeth, or who may read anything but hadeeth.

The other thing is that reading hadeeth and understanding it is not the same. Hadeeth is the most misunderstood part of Islamic literature, by Sunnis and non Sunnis alike. In fact, the problem is often that some people, under Sunni banner, push things they do not understand on others as rules, and the others will reactively push back and throw the hadeeth away. Both are unfortunate extremes.

Take care and have a great day.

Hussein

ILisa

Greetings hlatif,

... So, if you and I are humans, then we are expected to pray alike, especially when there is something called congregational prayer on Fridays. You do not expect people to come friday and pray in a thousand different directions using the clause "How I pray is my business".

Well, if you see what we're to do on Friday as 'congregational' robotic prayer movements that we all do in exact unison, then this is where our understanding of the ayat differs.

Islam is about improving the individual as he or she lives in a society of people who accept the same system and within the wider human society. Islam is not a religion of an individual who lives only alone.

On this point, we do not differ in our understanding.

I do apologize if my post suggested that you have not read the hadeeth, then I am sorry. That definitely was not my intention.

No problem. Don't worry about it.

The other thing is that reading hadeeth and understanding it is not the same.

Maybe understanding it in the 'proper' way is a different thing, but everyone WILL understand something when they read hadith, unless they try to read them in a language they don't understand.

Take care and have a great day.

Thanks, you too and thanks for the dialogue. It's good to 'branch out' a bit and converse with people who look at things from a different point of view. It all adds to a person's understanding.

Katara

Salam Abu,

I have listened and considered your argument. And i believe you are a fair man to listen what i have wrote here... peace

...from your premises 1)ayat obey God obey rasool, and
2) the quran does not provide finer details on these matters= quran needs hadith to supplement its msg= quran not enough= quran is not complete.

leads to this conclusion

You're saying All records of (assumed) prophet's sayings passed from one person to another person or generations -- are validated, protected by God and essential to understand the messages in the quran? ...with, and only with the hadiths, we are guided to practice the messages in quran?

is unjustified, not supported, extreme, and, as you will see (insha allah), your second premise contradicts the quran>> 6114, 1689

6114
So is other than God I ask/desire (as) a judge/ruler, and He is who descended to you The Book detailed/explained ? And those who We brought (gave) to them The Book , they know that it (is) descended from your Lord with the truth , so do not be (E) from the doubting/arguing.

1689
And a day/time, We send/resurrect/revive in every nation/generation a witness/testifier on them from themselves, and We came with you (as) a witness/testifier on those, and We descended on you The Book (a) clarification/explanation to every thing, and guidance, and mercy, and a good news to the Moslems/submitters/surrenderers.

Trust me, Abu, i have heard that kind of argument many times. I am not as ignorant as you think i am. P
alright, i'm not going to argue anymore about this, it is already clear to me. It is between you and Allah now.
I'm giving you the benefit of doubt that the both of us are doing this for truth, justice and for Lord's approval.. not for our ego and self-interest.

peace.

Abu_Zahrah

Salaam Katara;

Again , thank you for a response.

As for your conclusions;...from your premises 1)ayat obey God obey rasool, and
2) the quran does not provide finer details on these matters= quran needs hadith to supplement its msg= quran not enough= quran is not complete.

This is not what I am saying. I am not saying at all that the Qur'an is not complete. ALLAH tells us clearly that HE has perfected this Deen, but what you all fail to accept on very weak premises, is that the life of the Messenger and His interaction with his companions and others, through the guidance of the Qur'an and inspired revelation to Him (S) IS PART OF THIS DEEN!!! Our proof is mentioned so many time in the Qur'an, where ALLAH commands us to obey and follow the Messenger. Now, the Hadith are compilations of those statements and actions of the Messenger (S) that will give us access to a more detailed look at His life. This is not an aspect of the Qur'an. ALLAH does not state much about the particulars of the life of the Messenger (S), because the companions were there to witness that aspect. So there is no need. However, these particulars of the life of the Messenger (S) and how he encountered the people as it relates to fulfilling His role as a Messenger, was narrated by those who were with Him (S) to a people that was not. For the reason of educating them about what they were not blessed with, i.e the presence of the Messenger of ALLAH (S) and how to follow Him (S) as commanded by ALLAH. These teachings of the Sahaba was going on during the life of the Messenger (S) and after. Later, due to unfounded statements about the Messenger (S), the need arose to put stipulations and criteria on who can be relied upon to take narrations from while establishing that each narration (Hadith) a a traceable chain of transmitters all the way back to the Messenger (S), thereby ascertaining and authenticating the veracity of the narration. This process is called the science of Isnad (i.e. chain {of transmitters}) This is a very thorough science and one which can be relied upon, for it is proven!

Katara this is my point as it relates to your question about the Qur'an and Hadith. I hope I was able to help.

As for your statement; Trust me, Abu, i have heard that kind of argument many times. I am not as ignorant as you think i am.
alright, i'm not going to argue anymore about this, it is already clear to me. It is between you and Allah now.
I'm giving you the benefit of doubt that the both of us are doing this for truth, justice and for Lord's approval.. not for our ego and self-interest.

I don't know what that was about. I never thought you were ignorant, and I truly apprecited your questions. If you felt like I was disrespecting you of some sort, then please accept my apologies.

Ma Salaam.

PS - I will be posting, Insha-ALLAH, a thorough post about these issues under the "Explain 597" thread in the next couple of days. So hopefully, that will help clarify things more if needed.

Katara

salam abu,

i'm sorry, abu. I guessed it was because of another influenced from some where else in this forum that made me think you're thinking i'm ignorant... ehehe p sorry.

so you agree that the quran is complete, enough, and detailed -- for our deen?

peace.

Abu_Zahrah

Salaam Katara;

I am glad that is clear, and know that I never intend any harm, I am just glad that we can share views and learn from each other, even if we don't agree. Nevertheless, such a tolerance does not mean accept false and erroneous beliefs advocated under the banner of Islam.

Now to answer your question. Yes, I believe that the Qur'an is complete!!! As for being enough and detailed, then that will depend on what it is that is required of me by ALLAH. For in some aspects and duties as a Muslim, ALLAH guided us by way of the Sunnah of the Messenger (S) instead of fully laying it out in the qur'an. Just one example, the Hajj. The hajj has many aspects and rituals, and a lot is mentioned in the Qur'an, but by far not the complete hajj, the remaining detail of it is found in the example of the Messenger when he performed it and explained it, by commanding us to take our means to perform the hajj from him. This way, we won't make big mistakes and absurd statements like OPF in the "597" thread, which i responded to and showed how mistaken he was. Please take a look. So, yes I agree with what you are saying, but there needs to be an explanation when we say 'enough' and 'detail'.

Ma Salaam

Jack

salaam

ALLAH guided us by way of the Sunnah of the Messenger

since you admit the quran is complete, where in the quran is this " sunnah of the messenger "

and what does hajj mean according to the quran?

Quick question

The earth is a sphere as we all know, so being such there will be some place directly under 'makka' how do they face the kaaba during salaat?

Katara

salam abu,

i would understand if you said the quran is not enough for understanding.. because we need experiences to relate to its message.. But since there are verses that say the book/law/decree is detailed and explains all things, then your answer to my question can only be a "yes" or "no"..

since the verses did not state "detailed in some aspects" , rather, it says, provides explanation in "all things"..

--

there are at least two ways of approaching the Reading, we read as to..

finding answers to SUPPORT a theory
finding answers as it INTENDED to be

There are many points of view we can look at a topic..but once a view point is known to be NOT right,
seek other point of views..

peace, abu.

Abu_Zahrah

Salaam Katara,

All answers are not yes and no. Life is not a black and white reality. Its not that cut and dry. I just posted a response about the Ayat that deals with the Messenger (S) and how it is distinct from the Qur'an Under "Explain 597", I hope you can see it and that will be helpful. And your point about point of view is a good one, you said"There are many points of view we can look at a topic..but once a view point is known to be NOT right, seek other point of views..And this is what I am trying to convey to this forum, the pont of view that just following the Qur'an, and Qur'an alone slogans are not correct, and they should be abandoned for what has been taught about the Qur'an and the Messenger since the inception of the message. Remember, there comes with the Qur'an and Sunnah and everything else, a historical reality. And thsoe people who say Qur'an alone, have absolutely no connection with this reality!!! For you all, its like the Qur'an just fell off a mountian to you and not knowing nor caring where it came from and how it is to be applied and understood, you boast, Qur'an alone. In order to truly understand it, you need to know the history behind it. And that does not mean in every Ayat if you don't know the history you can gain benefit and guidance from it, no. But in totality, you need to know these things so that you can have the proper understandings. If I get time, I will llist for you the serious mistakes that people on this forum made in trying to interpret the Qur'an by the Qur'an alone, coupled with their ignorance. One cannot seperate the Messenger from the Message!!! He is part and parcel to the Message! Without him, we have no message!!! So how can we have the Message without Him? And to know Him (S) is in the Authentic Hadith!!! And again, if you read my post in 597, the Ayat I posted there makes this point so clear.

Abu_Zahrah

D Argento

YOUR QUESTION

"since you admit the quran is complete, where in the quran is this sunnah of the messenger "

MY ANSWER
"ALLAH said "BUT NO, BY YOUR LORD, THEY CANNOT (TRULY) BELIEVE, UNTIL THEY MAKE YOU, ( O MUHAMMAD), JUDGE CONCERNING OVER WHICH THEY DISPUTE AMONGST THEMSELVES AND THEN FIND WITHIN THEMSELVES NO DISCOMFORT FROM WHAT YOU HAVE JUDGED AND SUBMIT IN (FULL, WILLING) SUBMISSION." (465)

ALLAH said ("IT IS NOT FOR FOR A BELIEVING MAN OR BELIEVING WOMAN, WHEN ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER HAVE DECIDED A MATTER, THAT THEY SHOULD (THEREAFTER) HAVE ANY CHOICE ABOUT THEIR AFFAIR. AND WHOEVER DISOBEYS ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER HAS CERTAINLY STRAYED INTO CLEAR ERROR". (3336)

AND ALLAH SAID; "MAKE NOT THE CALLING OF THE MESSENGER AMONG YOU AS YOUR CALLING OF ONE ANOTHER. ALLAH KNOWS OF YOU WHO SLIP AWAY UNDER SHELTER. AND LET THOSE WHO OPPOSE THE MESSENGER'S COMMANDMENTS BEWARE, LEST SOME TRIAL BEFALL THEM OR A PAINFUL TORMENT BE INFLICTED ON THEM". (2463)

AND ALLAH SAID "AND WHEN IT IS SAID TO THEM, COME TO WHAT ALLAH HAS REVEALED AND TO THE MESSENGER, YOU SEE THE HYPOCRITES TURNING AWAY FROM YOU IN AVERSION". (461)

YOUR QUESTION

"and what does hajj mean according to the quran?

MY ANSWER

"Surah 3 Ayat 96-97"

YOUR QUESTION

"The earth is a sphere as we all know, so being such there will be some place directly under 'makka' how do they face the kaaba during salaat?

MY ANSWER

This question is extremely absurd and the most ridiculous one that I have heard so far on this forum but...

Mr D Argento, I live in America, and ABOVE AMERICA IS CANADA, but when I look up, I don't see Canada. No geographical site on the earth will see another if you look directly above, all who look above them will see the sky. I mean I can't even believe I am answering something as silly as this, but it just goes to show where you people are.

ILisa

One cannot seperate the Messenger from the Message!!! He is part and parcel to the Message! Without him, we have no message!!! So how can we have the Message without Him?

Ouch! What are you saying??

Samia

One cannot seperate the Messenger from the Message!!! He is part and parcel to the Message! Without him, we have no message!!! So how can we have the Message without Him?

The postman delivers our mail. Without him we can't have the mail. He is part and parcel to the mail. Would I go around collecting information about his life from, not a third but a tenth plus party, and believe those stories? Why for? Why would I search his life story in the first place? I have my mail to read, and it's much more important.

IronSky

Peace to all,

lol Samia, that was a perfect analogy that was funny at the same time,

great point and well put.

Kurt

phoenix1

peace Abu Zahra

There's a "wisdom quotes" thread on this forum, if you take a look at it, you'll find many wise sayings by many people. And guess what...you don't have to know a single thing about any one of those people to understand those quotes.
The truth is strong enough to stand on its own. When we see it, we recognize it, and we should follow it, regardless of who the speaker/author is.
If satan tells people to do good deeds, doing good doesn't become evil.
The messenger doesn't matter that much. Consulting the messenger might be a good idea if we want to know his/her interpretation. For example a lot of people have been asking JK Rowling about her books to find out about the themes, symbols etc. But the thing is, when so many people read a book, be it harry potter or the quran, some people are sure to hit upon the intended interpretation of the author. Most of what Rowling said about her books had already been guessed by many readers.
So yeah, although I don't look at the prophet's role in relation to the quran the same way Samia does, I do agree that the messenger isn't very important at all. Let's be fair to the messenger and study what he gave us, instead of making guesses about his personal life, and let's trust the messenger, and accept that he put everything he needed for us to know about his message in this volume (assuming it hasn't been altered in anyway since then).