So many humans are going to go to hell
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Arent they?
The price humanity had to pay for wanting free will. How stupid we were to want such a thing. Mainstream media considers free will a good thing, heroes are portrayed as fighting against their destiny and making their own choices, which is fine in the context of the story they're trying to tell, but in reality having free will gives you the opportunity to go against God, to stray off the straight path.
Think of humanity, how long humans have existed and how many of them have sinned horribly. I just read (yet another) article about Pakistan's method of punishing rape victims, I was so furious (again) that such barbaric customs are tied to Islam and that many countries do the same, and it made me think of the thread title.
So much of humanity is going to hell.
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peace,
i also have the same thoughts about hell, we each have our own unique personalities and decision making instincts, so it really makes me think;
did i (personally) have the choice to take the "free will" test aforetime and i don't remember?
or
did a "reprisentitive" spirit sign the covenent for us.
or
did the Almighty God give us a second chance for redemption.maybe it's a mixture, after all the knowledge of the "spirit" that we are givin is very little (as we are tolled in the Quran)
also we are tolled "remember" many times in the quran, of some times in which it deals with the remembrance of events prior to us dwelling on earth.
maybe we had a deep knowledge of the spirit and a alter ego(of our same identity) that God made us forget as a part of the test and our former selves knew full well that we would forget what we once knew but just had to listen to the messengers.
also becuase we cannot mentally remember certain events (that we are tolled to remember) those who are guided and walking the straight path inderectly do "remember" by having a deeper understanding of how critical this trial really is.God Almighty Knows best and everything.
peace,
** also i forgot to mention what ever happens God is the most incredible Judge between us, not even the dwellers of hell say this is unfair, but they do ask for extra punishment for those (leaders) whom they say led them to hell, but God Labels them as weak. but as for the "leaders " they know full well they got what they deserved.
if has anything extra i'd love to hear it, as this is one of the most intresting topics for me.
peace,
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God gave us a free will, but if we use it for other than his will, were doomed for a long period of time. Thus, we have no free will. It is like giving someone a computer, and telling the person that he can use it for anything that he wants, but if he use it for other than playing Diablo2 hes doomed. It doesnt compute. Our concept of hell, as proposed here, must be wrong, or God is an ***hole. However i suspect that is not the case, so we should look over the concept again. Personally, and this is but a pet thought, by all means prove me wrong, i belive that the limit where you get into serious trouble is when you take away other peoples free will one way or another. Because as it is a gift adminstered by God, what do you make yourself by doing it?
Peace
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i belive that the limit where you get into serious trouble is when you take away other peoples free will one way or another. Because as it is a gift adminstered by God, what do you make yourself by doing it?
Peace
that sounds to me an aggressive form of transgressing ones limits, almost a malicious act if you may.
also one is trying to play God when one tries to take away one of his God givin gifts (ie. free will)
thats why i believe oppression comes in many forms.
all praise is due to the One Almighty God.
peace,
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Good thoughts xthug, I also have interest in the fact that we're meant to 'remember' constantly, its a key theme. We have individual memories and a collective memory, very interesting indeed.
To address Magi's comments on free will, I'll explain what I think is the best explanation I've ever read on how free will and God's omnipotence co-exist
Imagine time like a scroll thats been unrolled, (perhaps the unrolling of it was kind of like the big bang). God exists within ("Closer to us than our jugular vein" and outside time as we perceive it (omnipresent). On the scroll there are many timelines of our existence on earth, a line for each individual, a line snaking, spiralling and linking from birth to death, going from left to right. God can see past, present and future from His position. But just like we can tell where the moon will be exactly 5 years from now, we dont make the moon go where we think it will go, and so in the same way God can know where we will end up but all the choices we make are our own. God can see all the possible future timelines that will be created when we're about to make a choice but doesnt force us down one path or another. Its like chaos theory, so many possibilities and variations, and God can see all possibilites and variations. This way God is omnipresent and we get to keep our free will.
Of course there's only two possible destinations. We can choose which one we want to end up in, or we can choose not to believe in the fact that there are two destinations at all. This is free will. If we never had free will we'd all end up in heaven, but our arrogance, or maybe just naive curiosity, led us to wanting free will and now we have to struggle to enter heaven, because its so easy to stray off the straight path.
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Peace
On the same note I like to add the story of Moses traveling with this person (known to us as a servant of Allah) and the Quran says this person kills a young man in verse 1874 and the reason he gives to Moses in verse18 80-81. Do you think this sums up the long story.
Did anyone see the movie Minority Report?
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Good thoughts xthug, I also have interest in the fact that we're meant to 'remember' constantly, its a key theme. We have individual memories and a collective memory, very interesting indeed.
To address Magi's comments on free will, I'll explain what I think is the best explanation I've ever read on how free will and God's omnipotence co-exist
Imagine time like a scroll thats been unrolled, (perhaps the unrolling of it was kind of like the big bang). God exists within ("Closer to us than our jugular vein" and outside time as we perceive it (omnipresent). On the scroll there are many timelines of our existence on earth, a line for each individual, a line snaking, spiralling and linking from birth to death, going from left to right. God can see past, present and future from His position. But just like we can tell where the moon will be exactly 5 years from now, we dont make the moon go where we think it will go, and so in the same way God can know where we will end up but all the choices we make are our own. God can see all the possible future timelines that will be created when we're about to make a choice but doesnt force us down one path or another. Its like chaos theory, so many possibilities and variations, and God can see all possibilites and variations. This way God is omnipresent and we get to keep our free will.
Of course there's only two possible destinations. We can choose which one we want to end up in, or we can choose not to believe in the fact that there are two destinations at all. This is free will. If we never had free will we'd all end up in heaven, but our arrogance, or maybe just naive curiosity, led us to wanting free will and now we have to struggle to enter heaven, because its so easy to stray off the straight path.
Peace
thats good, however it does not address the fact that God gives a gift, calls it free will, and tells you that you are damned if you dont use it as God wants. As in, If i give you a car and tell you that now its yours, and you can go anywhere you like, as long as youre going to aspen. Because if youre going anywhere in it but aspen, youre in deep trouble FOREVER!
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And why create so many people only to throw them in hell? If god knows so many people will fail the test and end up as toast then why not help them out or just forget the free-will business and let them be like 'angels'?
Finally didnt god say in the quran that he created everthing good? If so,then iblis and all the denizens of hell should use the excuse they were created good. -
Peace all,
If god knows so many people will fail the test and end up as toast then why not help them out or just forget the free-will business and let them be like 'angels'?
Because we chose to take the "free-will business". I see that for many, it's hard to understand this. Whether God knows is besides the point. Just like we choose to fail the test and we choose to 'end up as toast'.This may come as a surprise to many, but it's harder/tougher for a human to 'go to hell' than not. Humans choose to go on the wrong path, even though it goes against everything, the body, the mind, the soul, nature, the universe tells you.
thats good, however it does not address the fact that God gives a gift, calls it free will
God didn't force it on you, you decided to take it. So here you are.and tells you that you are damned if you dont use it as God wants
God doesn't "want" anything. He only gave you the instructions to go with the free-will, what you choose to do or not to do with it, is entirely up to you.As in, If i give you a car and tell you that now its yours, and you can go anywhere you like, as long as youre going to aspen. Because if youre going anywhere in it but aspen, youre in deep trouble FOREVER!
This and the PC/Diablo example is anything but resembling the situation. But let's go with the example for humor's sake - You're given a car to go to aspen to ski and stay at a resort for the winter, but instead you choose to drive to roswell, new mexico and stay in a run down shack without water... and then wonder why the person who gave you the car did this to you! confusedPeace
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Well said brother )
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Peace brothers,
thanks zenje for that reply,
right before i read it i thought i had to reply to those posts as well.to add a little to your post, and another response to magi, lets say the car can go anywhere not just aspen, BUT you can't go over 60 miles per hour,
so your driving but even though you percieve not theres a hitchhiker in the car with you constantly whispering "come on lets see what this baby (the car) can do" so you listen to those whispers (evern though you KNOW it's wrong) and go 70 miles per hour, so you transgressed your limits, later on you realized and "remember" your mistake and you repent to the Almighty, the Oft-Forgiving, the Most-Merciful.people also need to remember that we are givin MANY tools to help us along the way, and that God IS The MOST MERCIFUL, so no one will be judged wrong or uncompassionatly, God is also the MOST COMPASSIONATE and ALL KNOWER, and like I said in my original post no one in hell will claim there innocent or wrongly judged, the weak will want extra punishment for the bad leaders among them, and those leaders will claim they didn't have to listen to them.
ones who are walking a wrong path
--- they are like cattle --- NAY!!! even worse---
they are out of touch with God so some leader and or devil is leading that cattle to a terrible destination. (far worse then a hamburger patty lol)and in God's system we shouldnt forget that a jew, a christian or a gentile can all go to heaven ------ think very deeply on that.
peace,
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God didn't force it on you, you decided to take it. So here you are.
Peace
This doesnt fly. Not that i disagree, but for the sake for argument. This is a claim noone can confirm, because we apprently loose memory of it, which makes it sorta moot.
This and the PC/Diablo example is anything but resembling the situation. But let's go with the example for humor's sake - You're given a car to go to aspen to ski and stay at a resort for the winter, but instead you choose to drive to roswell, new mexico and stay in a run down shack without water... and then wonder why the person who gave you the car did this to you!
If thats what i chose, thats what i chose, but the owner of the car now force me to stay there for a long period of time becasue i didnt chose aspen, pr. his wishes.
peace
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Here have a candy bar, you can have any one you want as long as you chose the red one. Because if you dont chose the red one, all you can have is raw liver. Doesnt make it hard to choice does it? In fact, is it a choice at all, or merely an illusion thereof?
Altso zenje i dont get this part. Why would i want to chose to be in a place with this much pain and suffering, with the possability of having to go somewhere even worse and stay there for very long? What is the motivation? Heaven? If God knows who will and who wont, he could save the suffering part and just hand it to those he knows will, and spare those who wont the anguish.
Can i enjoy heaven, while i know that most didnt make it? Or will i forget about this and what happened in the same way that i dont remember asking to be here? because if not. Heaven would be a pretty lame place. I would feel as eating a sanwich in front of a hungry homeless guy. Suddenly the taste just isnt that good anymore. What im getting at is not the concepts, but our understanding, knowin that God is all merciful which is my own center of thinking about God always. If something doesnt fly with this, whatever it was, is wrong, and i need to think harder )
Peace
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I dont understand your resistence Magi. The fact that you choose to resist is proof enough isnt it? Isnt the ultimate evidence of free will the example of a person rebelling against or disbelieving in God who created him? The two destinations of heaven and hell is not the point of the discussion, the fact that we can do anything we please is the point. Every thing in creation is submitted to God's will, working like machinery, from the cells in your body to stars in space, the only creation acting as erratically as it pleases is us. Our bodies follow the laws of nature but our minds are free to explore every avenue possible. If every other thing in the universe had free will then we wouldnt have laws of physics and such, everything would be out of whack and doing whatever it pleased. One minute the moon is round and going round the Earth, the next its square and crashing into Mars.
Remember, in Islam, life is a test. In a test there is only two possible outcomes, pass or fail. We can choose to pass or fail or not even take the test seriously at all. If someone decides to ignore the test (not believe in God) and ends up in hell, that doesnt mean he didnt have free will. Its the biggest example of free will there is.
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God didn't force it on you, you decided to take it. So here you are.
Peace
This doesnt fly. Not that i disagree, but for the sake for argument. This is a claim noone can confirm, because we apprently loose memory of it, which makes it sorta moot.
This and the PC/Diablo example is anything but resembling the situation. But let's go with the example for humor's sake - You're given a car to go to aspen to ski and stay at a resort for the winter, but instead you choose to drive to roswell, new mexico and stay in a run down shack without water... and then wonder why the person who gave you the car did this to you!
If thats what i chose, thats what i chose, but the owner of the car now force me to stay there for a long period of time becasue i didnt chose aspen, pr. his wishes.
peace
intresting article i read on the human brain that it is more than powerfull enough to store every thing you have done in your life but recalling it from the stored files if you may is like a millionth of whats actually there.
i know it doesnt add anything really just an interesting fact to ponder.
about the car and aspen and roswell and instructions from the owner of the car and so on and so on, look at it this way your given a vessel your given a warranty manual to take care of the vessel, the warrenty manual is constant and in fact you already know most of the info in the manual with out reading it (your conscience sp?)
there are places that the manual tells you not to go, but you don't go there becuase something within you tells you not too.peace,
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I dont understand your resistence Magi. The fact that you choose to resist is proof enough isnt it? Isnt the ultimate evidence of free will the example of a person rebelling against or disbelieving in God who created him?
im rebelling and disbelieving, what the hell, who are you to say such a thing?
The two destinations of heaven and hell is not the point of the discussion, the fact that we can do anything we please is the point.
but thats the thing, we cant.
If someone decides to ignore the test (not believe in God) and ends up in hell, that doesnt mean he didnt have free will. Its the biggest example of free will there is.
He had free will to chose what he was told to chose, that is correct. Logical problem with our understanding here, and a bad one.
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God didn't force it on you, you decided to take it. So here you are.
Peace
This doesnt fly. Not that i disagree, but for the sake for argument. This is a claim noone can confirm, because we apprently loose memory of it, which makes it sorta moot.
This and the PC/Diablo example is anything but resembling the situation. But let's go with the example for humor's sake - You're given a car to go to aspen to ski and stay at a resort for the winter, but instead you choose to drive to roswell, new mexico and stay in a run down shack without water... and then wonder why the person who gave you the car did this to you!
If thats what i chose, thats what i chose, but the owner of the car now force me to stay there for a long period of time becasue i didnt chose aspen, pr. his wishes.
peace
intresting article i read on the human brain that it is more than powerfull enough to store every thing you have done in your life but recalling it from the stored files if you may is like a millionth of whats actually there.
i know it doesnt add anything really just an interesting fact to ponder.
about the car and aspen and roswell and instructions from the owner of the car and so on and so on, look at it this way your given a vessel your given a warranty manual to take care of the vessel, the warrenty manual is constant and in fact you already know most of the info in the manual with out reading it (your conscience sp?)
there are places that the manual tells you not to go, but you don't go there becuase something within you tells you not too.peace,
If im given something its mine, and its mine to trash too without consequence. If i havent got that right, without consequence, what i have is something borrowed. And then its not free, now is it.
Peace
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I dont understand your resistence Magi. The fact that you choose to resist is proof enough isnt it? Isnt the ultimate evidence of free will the example of a person rebelling against or disbelieving in God who created him?
im rebelling and disbelieving, what the hell, who are you to say such a thing?
Notice I said 'person' and not 'Magi' in the same sentence as 'rebelling' and 'disbelieving', please chill. Perhaps if I say that you choose to 'question' is a better example.
He had free will to chose what he was told to chose, that is correct. Logical problem with our understanding here, and a bad one.
Well I dont think we're going to agree on this topic pal. What I'm basically saying is the fact that we have the chance to end up in hell is proof of free will. What we want is not the point, its what we choose to do. Wanting and choosing are two very different things.