So many humans are going to go to hell
-
Peace brothers,
thanks zenje for that reply,
right before i read it i thought i had to reply to those posts as well.to add a little to your post, and another response to magi, lets say the car can go anywhere not just aspen, BUT you can't go over 60 miles per hour,
so your driving but even though you percieve not theres a hitchhiker in the car with you constantly whispering "come on lets see what this baby (the car) can do" so you listen to those whispers (evern though you KNOW it's wrong) and go 70 miles per hour, so you transgressed your limits, later on you realized and "remember" your mistake and you repent to the Almighty, the Oft-Forgiving, the Most-Merciful.people also need to remember that we are givin MANY tools to help us along the way, and that God IS The MOST MERCIFUL, so no one will be judged wrong or uncompassionatly, God is also the MOST COMPASSIONATE and ALL KNOWER, and like I said in my original post no one in hell will claim there innocent or wrongly judged, the weak will want extra punishment for the bad leaders among them, and those leaders will claim they didn't have to listen to them.
ones who are walking a wrong path
--- they are like cattle --- NAY!!! even worse---
they are out of touch with God so some leader and or devil is leading that cattle to a terrible destination. (far worse then a hamburger patty lol)and in God's system we shouldnt forget that a jew, a christian or a gentile can all go to heaven ------ think very deeply on that.
peace,
-
God didn't force it on you, you decided to take it. So here you are.
Peace
This doesnt fly. Not that i disagree, but for the sake for argument. This is a claim noone can confirm, because we apprently loose memory of it, which makes it sorta moot.
This and the PC/Diablo example is anything but resembling the situation. But let's go with the example for humor's sake - You're given a car to go to aspen to ski and stay at a resort for the winter, but instead you choose to drive to roswell, new mexico and stay in a run down shack without water... and then wonder why the person who gave you the car did this to you!
If thats what i chose, thats what i chose, but the owner of the car now force me to stay there for a long period of time becasue i didnt chose aspen, pr. his wishes.
peace
-
Here have a candy bar, you can have any one you want as long as you chose the red one. Because if you dont chose the red one, all you can have is raw liver. Doesnt make it hard to choice does it? In fact, is it a choice at all, or merely an illusion thereof?
Altso zenje i dont get this part. Why would i want to chose to be in a place with this much pain and suffering, with the possability of having to go somewhere even worse and stay there for very long? What is the motivation? Heaven? If God knows who will and who wont, he could save the suffering part and just hand it to those he knows will, and spare those who wont the anguish.
Can i enjoy heaven, while i know that most didnt make it? Or will i forget about this and what happened in the same way that i dont remember asking to be here? because if not. Heaven would be a pretty lame place. I would feel as eating a sanwich in front of a hungry homeless guy. Suddenly the taste just isnt that good anymore. What im getting at is not the concepts, but our understanding, knowin that God is all merciful which is my own center of thinking about God always. If something doesnt fly with this, whatever it was, is wrong, and i need to think harder )
Peace
-
I dont understand your resistence Magi. The fact that you choose to resist is proof enough isnt it? Isnt the ultimate evidence of free will the example of a person rebelling against or disbelieving in God who created him? The two destinations of heaven and hell is not the point of the discussion, the fact that we can do anything we please is the point. Every thing in creation is submitted to God's will, working like machinery, from the cells in your body to stars in space, the only creation acting as erratically as it pleases is us. Our bodies follow the laws of nature but our minds are free to explore every avenue possible. If every other thing in the universe had free will then we wouldnt have laws of physics and such, everything would be out of whack and doing whatever it pleased. One minute the moon is round and going round the Earth, the next its square and crashing into Mars.
Remember, in Islam, life is a test. In a test there is only two possible outcomes, pass or fail. We can choose to pass or fail or not even take the test seriously at all. If someone decides to ignore the test (not believe in God) and ends up in hell, that doesnt mean he didnt have free will. Its the biggest example of free will there is.
-
God didn't force it on you, you decided to take it. So here you are.
Peace
This doesnt fly. Not that i disagree, but for the sake for argument. This is a claim noone can confirm, because we apprently loose memory of it, which makes it sorta moot.
This and the PC/Diablo example is anything but resembling the situation. But let's go with the example for humor's sake - You're given a car to go to aspen to ski and stay at a resort for the winter, but instead you choose to drive to roswell, new mexico and stay in a run down shack without water... and then wonder why the person who gave you the car did this to you!
If thats what i chose, thats what i chose, but the owner of the car now force me to stay there for a long period of time becasue i didnt chose aspen, pr. his wishes.
peace
intresting article i read on the human brain that it is more than powerfull enough to store every thing you have done in your life but recalling it from the stored files if you may is like a millionth of whats actually there.
i know it doesnt add anything really just an interesting fact to ponder.
about the car and aspen and roswell and instructions from the owner of the car and so on and so on, look at it this way your given a vessel your given a warranty manual to take care of the vessel, the warrenty manual is constant and in fact you already know most of the info in the manual with out reading it (your conscience sp?)
there are places that the manual tells you not to go, but you don't go there becuase something within you tells you not too.peace,
-
I dont understand your resistence Magi. The fact that you choose to resist is proof enough isnt it? Isnt the ultimate evidence of free will the example of a person rebelling against or disbelieving in God who created him?
im rebelling and disbelieving, what the hell, who are you to say such a thing?
The two destinations of heaven and hell is not the point of the discussion, the fact that we can do anything we please is the point.
but thats the thing, we cant.
If someone decides to ignore the test (not believe in God) and ends up in hell, that doesnt mean he didnt have free will. Its the biggest example of free will there is.
He had free will to chose what he was told to chose, that is correct. Logical problem with our understanding here, and a bad one.
-
God didn't force it on you, you decided to take it. So here you are.
Peace
This doesnt fly. Not that i disagree, but for the sake for argument. This is a claim noone can confirm, because we apprently loose memory of it, which makes it sorta moot.
This and the PC/Diablo example is anything but resembling the situation. But let's go with the example for humor's sake - You're given a car to go to aspen to ski and stay at a resort for the winter, but instead you choose to drive to roswell, new mexico and stay in a run down shack without water... and then wonder why the person who gave you the car did this to you!
If thats what i chose, thats what i chose, but the owner of the car now force me to stay there for a long period of time becasue i didnt chose aspen, pr. his wishes.
peace
intresting article i read on the human brain that it is more than powerfull enough to store every thing you have done in your life but recalling it from the stored files if you may is like a millionth of whats actually there.
i know it doesnt add anything really just an interesting fact to ponder.
about the car and aspen and roswell and instructions from the owner of the car and so on and so on, look at it this way your given a vessel your given a warranty manual to take care of the vessel, the warrenty manual is constant and in fact you already know most of the info in the manual with out reading it (your conscience sp?)
there are places that the manual tells you not to go, but you don't go there becuase something within you tells you not too.peace,
If im given something its mine, and its mine to trash too without consequence. If i havent got that right, without consequence, what i have is something borrowed. And then its not free, now is it.
Peace
-
I dont understand your resistence Magi. The fact that you choose to resist is proof enough isnt it? Isnt the ultimate evidence of free will the example of a person rebelling against or disbelieving in God who created him?
im rebelling and disbelieving, what the hell, who are you to say such a thing?
Notice I said 'person' and not 'Magi' in the same sentence as 'rebelling' and 'disbelieving', please chill. Perhaps if I say that you choose to 'question' is a better example.
He had free will to chose what he was told to chose, that is correct. Logical problem with our understanding here, and a bad one.
Well I dont think we're going to agree on this topic pal. What I'm basically saying is the fact that we have the chance to end up in hell is proof of free will. What we want is not the point, its what we choose to do. Wanting and choosing are two very different things.
-
no its free will only for a term appointed after that you belong to your creator, who might be angry with you for trashing your "free will"
peace,
so it was not a free will as i would be punished for administering it against the will of God. So are we saying its something borrowed? In that case, its not free.
Peace
-
Well I dont think we're going to agree on this topic pal. What I'm basically saying is the fact that we have the chance to end up in hell is proof of free will. What we want is not the point, its what we choose to do. Wanting and choosing are two very different things.
peace brother,
this field is something i would like to talk with you more on.
its critical if you may .peace
-
no its free will only for a term appointed after that you belong to your creator, who might be angry with you for trashing your "free will"
peace,
so it was not a free will as i would be punished for administering it against the will of God. So are we saying its something borrowed? In that case, its not free.
Peace
peace
no actualy it's still "free"
but not forever. -
What I'm basically saying is the fact that we have the chance to end up in hell is proof of free will.
no because had it truely been free, we could chose not to excist at all. no heaven no hell, just nothing. I dont want this gift, here, have it back, and delete me from the mainframe thank you. That would be free will, the other is a choise between 2 things, where were told beforehand that one of the choices are wrong. But we have to agree to disagree then, no problem.
peace
-
If im given something its mine, and its mine to trash too without consequence. If i havent got that right, without consequence, what i have is something borrowed. And then its not free, now is it.
no because had it truely been free, we could chose not to excist at all. no heaven no hell, just nothing. I dont want this gift, here, have it back, and delete me from the mainframe thank you. That would be free will, the other is a choise between 2 things, where were told beforehand that one of the choices are wrong. But we have to agree to disagree then, no problem.
Everything emenates out of God, a Just Being. In order for us to subscribe to your perception of free will, the ability to do whatever we please with no negative consequences, we would have to be independant of God, i.e - the same as God, and thats not possible in our monotheistic belief. Islam does mean submission afterall, so I would say no Magi, we do not have Absolute and Supreme free will of the kind you've been explaining in this thread. That belongs to God alone.
-
So in other words, we do not have a free will?. Then what we have is a choice, where one of the 2 possabilities isnt really much of a choice at all.
-
do you want the candy bar, or do you want a beating. you have a free will its all up to you....hmmmm confused
-
So in other words, we do not have a free will?. Then what we have is a choice, where one of the 2 possabilities isnt really much of a choice at all.
peace,
lol i don't get how you don't have free will if the choice is based on your will.in this dimension(our currant world life) we have free will.
in the next dimension you get marked(judged) by the Creator.
you pass your in the funnest class ever(you can have your candy bar), you fail your in the most boring and painful class ever(beatings galore)now your free will is either going to take you to the candy bar or the beating,
those who remember and understand and ponder and possess knowledge are those who use there free will to take them to the candy bar.peace,
-
what im saying is, that is not a choice. Noone would deliberately chose the beating if they understood the consequences. But if they dont understand the consequences, how can they be punished?
Peace
-
what im saying is, that is not a choice. Noone would deliberately chose the beating if they understood the consequences. But if they dont understand the consequences, how can they be punished?
Peace
i guess i give less credit to humanity becuase i believe even if we know the consequences there will still be quite allot who still steal, murder, lie and commit many more sins.. why ??? becuase sometimes it's just easier or it feels good at the moment,
man is very impatient, and most live for the moment.
Adam was directly Tolled by God not to aproch the tree, but he still did... why ??? becuase he was fooled by satan.
even if we all know the consequences we can still be dupped.
there will be inhabitants of hell claiming if they were sent back to earth for another test they would change... The All Powerfull and All Knowing God Tells us they would still fail.
peace,
-
Peace Magi,
Here have a candy bar, you can have any one you want as long as you chose the red one. Because if you dont chose the red one, all you can have is raw liver. Doesnt make it hard to choice does it? In fact, is it a choice at all, or merely an illusion thereof?
Again the analogy does not compare, not even close to the myriad of choices you have every second of your existence. You can do better than that Magi!Altso zenje i dont get this part. Why would i want to chose to be in a place with this much pain and suffering, with the possability of having to go somewhere even worse and stay there for very long? What is the motivation?
These are the questions you need to deeply ask yourself, and no one else can answer it for you. Why did mother Teresa choose to live in Calcutta, and not in some mansion on an island somewhere? Why does anyone choose anything? Good, bad, bliss, anguish?
If God knows who will and who wont, he could save the suffering part and just hand it to those he knows will, and spare those who wont the anguish.
Because the person chose to suffer, chose to be in pain. Believe it or not, some people choose a beating over a candy bar every moment of their lives, conciously or otherwise.Can i enjoy heaven, while i know that most didnt make it?
You will, knowing that those who are not in 'heaven' chose 'hell', there will be no ambiguity, no questions.What im getting at is not the concepts, but our understanding, knowin that God is all merciful which is my own center of thinking about God always. If something doesnt fly with this, whatever it was, is wrong, and i need to think harder
Good for you, don't give up.