Shabbir's findings on Ramadan
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Below is what I have posted on dr Shabbir's forum 3 or 4 times. This post has not been allowed to be displayed.
Dr Shabbir is refusing to see the logical conclusion of the verse . I am sad to say that, but he reminds me the sunnis when they discover the hadith have no place in the deen.
He is more and more disappointing.
Peace
Respected JMFR, we must keep in mind that the Solar and the Lunar calendars are not mutually exclusive. As you know, both calendars have been in place for centuries without causing any problems.
Yes, but the problem is that the sunni calendar is by no way solar, since in this calendar, a year lasts only 345 days.
A good example of a solar/lunar calendar is the calendar you presented in your above post
Since these months fell short by eleven days compared to the solar year (354 days vs 365), Adnan and his followers used to add eleven "days of no account" (ghair ma'dood) every year in a kind of 'no man's land'.
IMHO, such a calendar would be more in line with the teachings of the Quran (and especially the verse ) that the current sunni calendar.
In such a calendar system, we count the years according to the solar cycle (in line with and , and we count the months according to the moon cycle (in line with ).
Peace
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So you're Jim Franck ;D,
Yes, i also have the same problem sometimes with him, but i also talk and mail with him personally, and when he can't research it properly because he has no time, he will not post it as he can't answer it yet. But i believe he did answer you by showing that for the Ramadan and Hajj the Lunar is used. So i believe, he thinks he has discussed it enough.
And of course, Shabbir is not perfect, but still one of the best out there. We must take up and research ourselves with the things he neglects.....
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Peace Arnold, all,
I consulted 29 most ancient Arabic and Persian books to bring to you as authentic an information as humanly possible.
Dr. Shabir consulted post-quranic sources so it is a waste of time to use those sources to figure out pre-quranic calendars. It would have been better if he consulted pre-quranic manuscripts and inscriptions and many of those naturally contain dates.
Kedar was the second son of Hazrat Ismael. In his
progeny, the 37th generation, was born the most influential of the early Arabs. His name was Adnan-1.
I could trace back the history up to him. Pratically the ruler of today's Hijaz, Adnan-1 devised some ground-breaking social changes. He was the one to name the lunar months according to the climate, crops and seasons. The names are the same as we find today.Of course, Kedar, Adnan and this whole geneology is nothing more than fiction.
Muharram
Safar
Rabiul-Awwal
Rabi-uthani
Jumadi-ul-Awwal
Jumadi-uthani
Rajab
Sha'ban
Ramadhan
Shawwal
Dhil-Q'ada
Dhil-HijjaFirstly, in northern Arabia they divided the year into 6 divisions and Rabiul-Awwal (the first grazing) was in the spring while Rabi-uthani (the second grazing) was in the fall. They didn't follow one another as in the so-called Islamic calendar.
Secondly, in central and southern Arabia, we have many inscriptions that show the names of the months that the Arabs in this region used. Here they are
http//www.encislam.brill.nl/Data/EncIslam/imgInline/V10P260.jpg
Since these months fell short by eleven days compared to the solar year (354 days vs 365), Adnan and his followers used to add eleven "days of no account" (ghair ma'dood) every year in a kind of 'no man's land'.
In 207 CE, the tribe of Banu Jurham took over the rule of Hijaz and made a significant change. They started "a month of no account" (ghair ma'dood = 33 days of 'Lawnd' like the 'no man's land' every three years.
Like Adnan they wanted to keep the months commensurate with the climate, seasons and crops.440 CE Then came the powerful Qussayi in the generation of Adnan. As the chief of Hijaz he instituted some reforms of his own. One of those reforms was to keep the names of the months unchanged but detach them from the seasons. Therefore, every month started coming in different seasons, regardless of what it meant to the crops.
Qussayi's decisions became effective in 440 CE, that is, 130 years before the blessed birth of the exhalted Prophet and so it is to this day.This is all fiction and there is no shred of evidence to support it.
The Quraish dialect maintains SHAHR as MONTH (not the full moon) and RAMADHAN as the 9th month (and not the month of extreme heat).
There is no such thing as the "Quraish" dialect. In central and south Arabia, Arabic inscriptions show strong influence from the Sabaic south Arabian dialect. In north Arabia, the inscriptions show a Nabataean Aramaic influence. However, the dialects were probably mutually understandable and the great reading uses vocabulary from both dialects (though more north Arabian).
As for the meaning of "shahr" as "full moon", this meaning is given by Lisan Al-3arab. The same goes for the meaning of "ramadan" as "scorching".
The best reference out of the 29 books I consulted is TAREEKH DAUL-AL-'ARAB WA QABL-IL ISLAM by Yahaya bin Sehab al-Qahtani (794 CE), much before "Imam" Tabari.
The best reference would have been a pre-quranic inscription or manuscript (physical evidence) NOT pious fiction created some 180 years after the fact.
Now please look at the Qur'an.
2185 The month of Ramadhan has been chosen for this collective training since this is the month in which the Qur?an was revealed - a Guidance for mankind, clearly explaining the ?why? of every Rule. And it is the Criterion of right and wrong. Hence, whoever witnesses this month should participate in the program of Abstinence. But if any of you is sick or on a journey, let him practice Abstinence for the same number of days later. Allah desires for you ease, and He desires for you no hardship. The postponement is for enabling you to complete the period. The objective of this training is to establish the Supremacy of Allah (on earth) for He has shown you a well-lighted road, and for you to express gratitude in practice.
It is precisely by looking at 2185 that we cannot accept Dr. Shabir's translation. If we accept Dr. Shabbir's translation then 2185 becomes meaningless since month is an arbitrary time division and Ramadhan as a proper name is a meaningless label.
I hope this helps.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace,
Yes Ayman, i hoped that you would respond. Thank you for your contribution. Shabbir has really some good points on the Quran's meaning, but he hangs on to blindly on these History books, even though he is really carefull with them. I prefer your 'natural phenomena' timing of the Saum, as it is more scientific and more logical. But i need to do more research myself before accepting it.
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Salam Arnold and Ayman,
As you both point out correctly, to err is human.
Dr. Shabbir's work, though is traditionalist from a geographical setting and pre-Quranic events point of view, much of his philosophy invites you to think, which is the first step...
Dr. Shabbir's interpretation of the Quran, does cling firmly on the traditionalist pre-Quranic setting and location of the prophet, but I do not think that a jump from the N2I (number 2 Islam) state to a "free-mind" is something everyone can do in a single bound. There is a need for an intermediate stage... and this is where Dr. Shabbir's interpretation acts as a transitionary vessel to become a "free mind". If I had stumbled upon Ayman's articles half a year ago, I for sure would have said "La haula wala qoowat" and marched on my google search lol and yet a month ago, I stopped and pondered, which to my surprise I may not have done before.
Here is where Dr. Shabbir is in agreement with Dr. Ayman (this stuff is more important than historic relevance IMO - although I too am researching on historic facts now)
Dr. Shabbir does agree that Salah has nothing to do with the 5-time ritual we have been taught as kids to perform... he agrees that that saum does not mean to starve from dawn to dusk... he agrees that the pagan rituals of the hajj are not to be followed. He firmly believes that people to become true muslims must reflect on the Quran and not blindly follow the priest. He firmly believes that we humans have a choice and nothing is pre-destined. He firmly believes that shaitan and jinn are nothing but our selfish and chaotic desire and fantasy...
Besides, I think his optimistic outlook on the future (This world will become a glimpse of paradise and Allah promisses this IF we establish the divine system) invites muslims to stop waiting for the so-called Mehdi and Maseeh and the Dajjal, and start to act as they are instructed in the light of God's message. That, in my view is the key to becoming a person of action, just as the prophet himself was, and that is how we make the world a better place and inherit paradise as well. This approach is strikingly in contrast with traditionalist approach that the world will become a sesspool before the day of judgement, a proposition that invites people close down their faculties of reasoning and start looking for "signs of al-qiyaamah" based on destructive forces, and even start participating in the destruction (we can see that happening all over the muslim world that is now waiting for the mahdi and maseeh).
Peace,
Yes Ayman, i hoped that you would respond. Thank you for your contribution. Shabbir has really some good points on the Quran's meaning, but he hangs on to blindly on these History books, even though he is really carefull with them. I prefer your 'natural phenomena' timing of the Saum, as it is more scientific and more logical. But i need to do more research myself before accepting it.
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This approach is strikingly in contrast with traditionalist approach that the world will become a sesspool before the day of judgement, a proposition that invites people close down their faculties of reasoning and start looking for "signs of al-qiyaamah" based on destructive forces, and even start participating in the destruction (we can see that happening all over the muslim world that is now waiting for the mahdi and maseeh).
Wow! o Fantastic point! This is SO true and so woefully destructive!! Thank you for opening my eyes to this fact.
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Peace Ayman, all,
Bro, you're a walking resource for us all. May God bless your efforts. I sincerely hope you're cataloguing your findings so us lay people can catch up on our own terms. Maybe a book or e-book in the works?? Please let me know, or else I'm gonna have to copy and paste all your posts for my own benefit.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace,
I used to disagree with the extreme heat idea. But now I do agree with it. However, there had to be some reconciliation with grammatical features. The only way it works is if shah-ru ramadaana is read s shahru-rramadaana and understood as shah-run ramadaanan, which would equal shah-run saifan, and the alladhee has to refer to the Quran, and the hi in feehi to God/or the month. Therefor shahruramadaana (A month of during heat (literally heat-wise) alladhee unzila feehi al-quraanu (what was revealed in it, was this reading (the Quran).
So definitely I agree that we should fast for 30 days during our summer (extremely/consistently hot) seasons. And if we have to suffer through this to complete this task then we can make it up by feeding someone in need for each day of fasting we miss.
As for a month being 30 days I've discussed this in other posts and shown how the Quran consistenly relates a month (shahrun) to 30 days.
The one case where it would seem it doesn't is not equalling the daily fasting to it's compensation but mentioning compensation for another act (being when separate from out wives out of enmity and animosity, even violently)Ayman said
As for the meaning of "shahr" as "full moon", this meaning is given by Lisan Al-3arab. The same goes for the meaning of "ramadan" as "scorching".
Ayman this is not true. The meaning of fully moon is not there, this is your interpretation of the meaning of 'moon' and 'famous and prominent.' You combined prominent and moon to get prominent moon which you associated with full moon. Could you translitarate or post the Arabic of the entry in Lisaan al-Arab that says 'full moon.'
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace,
The main issue I see is here
440 CE Then came the powerful Qussayi in the generation of Adnan. As the chief of Hijaz he instituted some reforms of his own. One of those reforms was to keep the names of the months unchanged but detach them from the seasons. Therefore, every month started coming in different seasons, regardless of what it meant to the crops.
Qussayi's decisions became effective in 440 CE, that is, 130 years before the blessed birth of the exhalted Prophet and so it is to this day.If this is true than what was the reason for the outlawing of adding an extra-month (937)? Supposing that they weren't adding an extra-month during the prophet's time goes against the Quran's assumption that they were. So this story seems to contradict the Quran.
Godbless
Anwar -
Peace, we simply CANNOT trust history books. History has been manipulated by Satan. We find therein great many contradictions. Even in today's world, we cannot trust media to report correct information. Each station has its own version. Now imagine history that dates 1600 years or more.
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Physical history doesn't lie, however.
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Peace
Although I see that ramadan can mean intense heat and that the Quran infers that month is also a period of 30 days. The calendar of Adnan's time ( I know it is post-Islamic but there are pre-Islamic histories that predate Islam especially if they are histories pased on by the ruwat/riwat (reciting class of Pre-islamic and Islamci times) is accurate as well if we understand ramadan to just be name of the month. Despite the fac that there is no linguistic inferences with the words that the word ramadan chagned from when it was given to when it became an official name of a month. Despite that adding 11 days a year is still legal. Even 22 is legal to only have to do this twice a year. However there would have to be some backtracking to the year when this and the practice of adding an extra month was stopped to get an accurate calendar.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace,
Let me make this clear again. Adding 11 days would not be illegal or a bad thing. Using the moon phases and adding 11 days would be a valid calendar.
However that still does not take away the fact that a shahr can still be 30 days and it also does not solve the problem of backtracking. We would have to back track the Islamic calender to when the change from the solar/lunar to purely lunar calendar was made and then count back up to now to have an accurate calendar. I would be in agreement with such a calender if it were dated back and then counted out until now. Addign 11 days is not transposing and month and is therefore Quranically legal. The back tracking is needed for us to have the correct pre-Islamic Ramadan. That is fair and would solve the problem for people who see ahillat as only moon phases.Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace
why complex things to consider the lunar in calendar? just use solar or gregorian, we use the Lunar is only for ramadhan and the 4 forbidden month only right (correct me if i'm wrong)? so whenever one witnesses the hottest month just fast for 30 days and be aware of the forbidden month. That's only it from my understanding. And yes The sunni calendar is of the hook. Their Ramadhan changes every year.
For me Islam is simple. Now i'm just waiting anxiously to witness the big moon.
May god bless us handshake
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Peace,
The issues here are
The calendar in the last prophet's time was luni-solar, however using an illegal (not approved by God) sysemt of adding an extra month.
The purely lunar calender (the Islamic one, Sunni and Shiite) does not represent the calendar during the time of the last prophet, because when the Quran was revealed duirng Ramadan that Ramadan was a solar calendar modified to coincide with lunary cylcles for months. So are we following the Ramadan and Holy months of the time of the Quran and that the last prophet knew?
The Quran outlawed the addition of an extra month to make the lunar cycles coincide with months for the lunar year. However, before this extra month was added (many years before) only 11 days were added giving the same effect (I really don't know how as when I think about it doesn't make sense to me).
So what's the main issue? The Islamic calendar, being the lunar one is not the same calendar (and hence not the same Ramadan) in which our last prophet was given the Quran (God bless him). So something should be done about that. We need to go back to that original calendar to know the true Ramadan.
In any case Ramadan can be understood as season of heat (this theory needs to consider tajweed and the doubling of the ra in ramadan after shahru, and the consideration that the fat-hatain can be pronounced with the tanween or just as an alif/fat-hatun. This allows it to mean shahrun ramadaanan which is a month during a season of heat). Also as it concerns the use of ahillat in the Quran, its meanings as haleel corresponding to maa uhilla bihi would have to be considered to allow this aspect of the Quran to be consistent as it concerns the calendar and pilgrimage.
Godbless,
AnwarLet's be careful to not be too obsessed with simplicity that we oversimplify things without fully analyzing them. Is simplicity a Quranic virtue, or the pursuit of truth and using our minds, according to the Quran?
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Peace all,
All history has been trashed since it is a traditional conspiracy. How do you drive the name of months, number of days in a week and a solar calender using Quran alone without referring to the classical arabic dictionaries written by the same corrupt sectarians and finding out a flavour of the root meaning you think is logical again by only subjective judgement. When you say that all history is unreliable so how do you know that the dictionaries you are using are reliable or only what you say is reliable without Quranic evidence. Dictionaries are not protected by God and has been written by the same historians so how can you vaguely connect some root word meaning with your own logics and say it is from God.
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Dictionaries and history books have two separate functions. History books are dedicated to stories and those stories are often too tempting not to touch by people who have some investment in the story; Ethnocentrism, Egocentrism etc etc. But dictionaries only seek to record how people use words. No stories involved. They also tag on well known usages to solidify the research. That's it. Sometimes a story of the origin of the word pops up but that is a back track for how the word was already being used. It is of no importance. There's no ego or ethnocentrism involved in finding out how people use words by getting them to use them. In the end if the only sources we have for the meanings of Arabic words used in the Quran and in other literature is falsified and corrupted you might as well throw your Quran in the fire because it is no more than hieroglyphs on paper. You cannot read unless you have a reliable source for the meanings of the words used. Open up your Quran, look at the Arabic and say to yourself that every meaning of these words before me has been lost and corrupted (unless you choose to be a hypocrite and justify how the words you like or need to further your own agenda were somehow magically saved from this conspiracy). Then ask yourself how you will find out what they mean in order to read the book if all the meanings have been corrupted. Change your name Abrar, because what you are thinking and saying is far from birr and not mubarrar in any way.
Godbless,
Anwar