About Nazarenes (to AY)
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Peace AY,
This post is about your article about the translation of the word nasara.
cf http//19.org/index.php?id=91,416,0,0,1,0In this article, you explain that the word nasara of the Quran do not refer to trinitarian Christians, but to a jewish group called Nazarene.
My first comment would be that, though this article is very well documented, it lacks notes, so that we could refer to the books where you have found your information, to verify it.
My second comment is that you have used QXP as the translation, whereas, IMHO, a literal translation would have been more appropriate.
Now, about your point...
According to you, the Nazarenes are not the same as the Trinitarian Christians. Both are mentioned in the quran.
The Nazarenes are those who are called nasara.
And the Trinitarian Christians are not given a label, but are alluded to in the verses and .You wrote about the nazarenes
They had disputes about Jesus's nature and role, but almost none accepted the trinity and the Egyptian Sun worship rituals of the Greek-Roman Catholics.
I am very sceptic about this theory because of these 2 verses.
Indeed, the truth deny they who say, "Behold, God is the Christ, son of Mary"
the nasara say, "The Christ is God's son."
Put together, these 2 verses clearly show the the ones alluded to in could very well the same ones as in , i.e., nasara.
Second, the nasara are mentioned in , i.e., just before .
Third, every religious sect are given a label. This assumption of a sect alluded to, but not given a label is very hard to accept for me.
I may agree with you to translate the word nasara by ?nazarene? (provided we are able to provide reliable historic knowledge about the Nazarenes).
But I disagree with you when you claim that the verses and are not about Nazarenes.
However, I may agree with you on the fact there could have been different kind of creeds among the Nazarenes.The remaining question is who are the Nazarenes mentioned in and said to be mumin ? What are their characteristics ?
?Those who believe, and those who are Jewish, and the Sabiens, and the Nazarenes; whoever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good works, then they will have nothing to fear nor will they grieve.?
Can the Trinitarians be among the Nazarenes mentioned in this verse ?
The verse seems to make it clear that they can?t. However, in this verse, the Trinitarians are not said to be kuffar. They are said to kafara, i.e, to do an act of kufr. See my above transaltion, which is from Asad.
Nonetheless, I don?t know whether this distinction is relevant or not. Any comment will be appreciated.So, who can they be ?
I don?t know, but maybe a clue is to be found in .you will find the closest in affection to those who believe are those who said ?We are Nazarenes;? that is because amongst them are Priests and Monks, and they are not arrogant.
The best among them are those who are not arrogant...
Maybe the best way to judge among the Nazarenes would not be to look at their creed, but rather to look at their behaviour ?
Looking forward for feedbacks,
Peace
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The verse is interesting too.
And if they hear what was sent down to the messenger you see their eyes flooding with tears, for what they have known as the truth, they Say ?Our Lord, we believe, so record us with the witnesses.?
This verse gives us a litmus test to know who are the believers among the people of the book.
When the Quran is conveyed to them, they accept it as the truth. They do not answer ?wrong, Isa is the son of God?, or something like that?
One condition however the Quran should be conveyed to them without corruption of its meaning.
Any disagreement ?
Peace
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Peace JM,
That article is more a collection of different posts i gave as answers to persons on the ourbeacon.com-forum, so this explains why i used QXP. After that people asked me the same questions over and over, so i just put all the posts together and tried to make it one simple article, later on Edip asked me to post it. So it indeed lacks some things. It is still a bit messy, and it needs a revision. As for sources, there are to many books to mention but here are a few
Laurence Gardner The Magdelane Heritage
Barbara Thiering Jesus the Man
Geza Vermes The Religion of Jesus the Jew; The Dead Sea scrolls english translation
Robert Feather Jesus at Qumran
B.Ehrman Lost Christianity's
Jacob Slavenburg The Logical Jesus; Opus Posthuum; Secret Words; The Nag Hammadi Scriptures
Robert Eisenman The Dead Sea Scrolls and the first Christians
Micheal Baigant The Messanic Heritage
Martin McNamara Apocalyptic and Eschatological Heritage
Franz Cumont The Mysteries of Mithra
Albert Pike Irano-Aryan Faith and Doctrine
These are only a few but very important books on these subjects.
My article is still a work in progress and it is still a bit messy, so i would be glad to work it out with you, verse by verse. I do believe the Nazarenes are different from the Triniterian-Greeks as their religion is totaly based on different doctrines then the Nazarenes.
There are Nazarenes who believe Jesus is the Son of God without believing in the Trinity. Also when you study the Triniterian-Greek history, you will see that the first 300 years they believed Jesus to be the Son of God without believing in the Trinity. In about 280, the first conferences were held to see if God was a Duality! not a Trinity. First they were only discussing the Son-Father relationship and how this power is divided. Only years after, did they make it a Trinity where the Holy Spirit was taken into the Duality. So believing in a Trinity and believing Jesus is the Son of God are 2 different things. Also from which point of view this was seen, is important
The Greeks were influenced by the Zoraosterian-Mithra cult and the Sun-worship cult of the Egyptians. The Nazarenes were later on influenced by Qabala(which in itself also was influenced by the Mithra-cult and Egypt) and more especially, Gnosis. The Triniterian-Greeks copied directly from the Persians and the Egyptians as the Roman culture was already highly influenced by them. The Nazarenes only picked up these idolatry forms, years after they were banned from Jerusalem.
So the Nazarenes were only influenced after they were dispursed over Arabia, and only after hundreds of years, groups formed inside the Nazarenes who inclined to Persian doctrine of 'Sonship' of Jesus.
The Triniterian-Greeks itself immediatly started with the Persian Mithra-cult doctrine, and based their whole doctrine on this cult, and thus ended up with a Trinity.
So the Nazarenes only deviated from their original beliefs, as mentioned in the Quran. While the Greeks already deviaded from the start and had complete false beliefs from the beginning.
And yes, you are right that the Triniterians do kafara, and are not directly called kufr, this is my mistake. I will correct it when i have made a better version of the article.
One thing is interresting, is that Allah never uses the word 'Christian' in the Quran, but used the original word for the followers of Jesus 'Nazarene'. This was the main clue for me, next to all the hints towards Nazarene forms of worship and ritual.
I don't believe we can look at their behaviour only, it more a whole package. Like i explained that celibacy and monasteries are Nazarene practices, and not Triniterian-Greek practices. The Greeks took these forms over only when they assimilated the original Nazarene monasteries into their doctrine. So the original form of monks and also priests are more linked with the original Nazarenes, then with the Greeks, so even Triniterian monks are performing Nazarene forms of worship and not Triniterian-Greek forms. Also most Nazarenes ended up in Arabia, so i believe it is logical they are mentioned in the Quran. The Triniterian-Greeks are called 'The Romans' and not Nazarene in Sura 30, this is also one of my biggest clues for my conclusions. But it needs more details and explanations, so i will work on it.
Also i agree with you on 583, as i experienced this myself. But this was when i already was more Nazarene then Triniterian, as i rejected the Trinity, but believed in Jesus. This is also what i mostly see with people around me who turn Muslim. They already reject the Trinity, and are more inclined to pure monotheism, although they sometimes see Jesus as more special then normal, so this is comparible with the deviations of the Nazarene as mentioned in the Quran. So for example, Uniterians and Jehova's witnesses are more closely to the Nazarene faith then the Triniterians, and can be even seen maybe as Nazarene. But this needs more research.
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Peace be upon you
Dear Arnold and JM
Truly impressed by the amount of research done by you. Please share your research
with us more often.One of the arguments Christians make against the Quraan is that the Quraan falsely mentions inclusion of Mary in the trinity which the Christians did not.
I am not certain whether they are referring to 5116.
Do you think, the same way, after 280 years they managed to include the Holy Spirit in the trinity they will allow Mary to be part of the club after 2000 years or have they done it already.
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Peace,
No no, The Roman-Catholics worship Mary as an illeh, a divinity. They make this stupid claim that Mary is so-called part of the Trinity, by not knowing the Quran's concept of an illeh. Mary is clearly approached as an illeh by the Catholics and Orthodox church, because they pray to her and ask her things. They have special prayers for her and almost EVERY Catholic church has a special altar for Mary. So their idolatry for Mary is clear for everybody. The Quran doesn't say she is part of the Trinity, Allah says that she and Jesus are approached as illeh's, divinities to pray to.