There is a major difference between men and women afterall
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Peace esimsek
yes all hamdullelah men and women different - vive la diff?rence but this article above sounds wrong to me personnally and in any way to generalizing i never liked playing with dolls and also i left my husband when he got rich - married him when he was not though... also i love martial arts, cars and many things women are not supposed to like - on he other hand i agree to being more emotional than most guys i know but well, that's me...
so i wonder just as amuslim - what's your issue ? we all are different. when you talk about men being victims of the feminist mouvement it makes me laugh...look around the world and inform yourself about the women suffering in tradtionnal societies where violence is usually exerced on the women - by men an women alike yes true, but in this case we all are victims
anyway, just to inform you before you attack me for feminism, which seems to be an major sin in your eyes i'm for equality, i accept the fact that we are different but complementary, man and woman need each other if not he world would just come to an end, and i just do not like generalisation.
lk
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Peace Elke,
Feminism started off as a great movement, a movement that had justice and cause behind it, but in today's world it's a great big joke.
You argue that in certain 2nd, 3rd world nations women suffer under the iron rule of men. I accept, nor do I condone what those 'men' do.
But however, do you ever consider, in 1st world nations, how men suffer under the iron rule of women?????
We are not physically abused, but emotionally abused. We are not good enough, from the get go we have to work, work and work, with the (false) belief that the richer we are the easier it will be to find a partner. We have no say in our professional lives (another false belief). Men are expected to work like a dog and support the woman. Should a divorce eventuate, it's the woman who takes the majority of finances and assets, it's the woman (generally) who gets a say in how often the ex-husband get's to see their kids, etc, etc, etc. And yes believe you me, there are some vindictive b***hes out there.
I can go on and on and on about the abuse of men.
Men are likened to being big boys, why because in our society, we concentrate on the development of women (during puberscent years), while boys are 'expected' to grow up, without viable role models, nor with the knowledge of what it is to be a man. A girl can rely on her Cleo, etc magazine, what does a boy have to rely on??? A father who works, god knows how many hours, and is too tired and stressed to spend time with the family (I am speaking generally here).
Let there be a billboard with a half naked woman on it, feminists go up in arms!!!!!!!!! We are not sx symbols they say, newsflash, attraction plays a MAJOR part in human reproduction, (I'm being very, very honest here), yes women are sxual objects to men and there is NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT! Men have NEVER said that women are ONLY sx objects, but we do state that they are Sxual objects (until that became s*xual discrimination).
Let there be a billboard ordering men to work 20hrs 7 days a week, you know what todays man would do?????? He'd accept it and trudge along.
In today's society our lives are not what they are cracked up to be, because no one has taken the time to differentiate between a woman and man. It has been assumed that we are the same creatures, when CLEARLY this has never been the case. So much advancement has been made towards the understanding of the female psyche, but what about the man???? Has it ever occured to feminists, that they are stepping on the toes of the male psyche????
How many times on this board have I said that a man's ego is very vital to him, it's very vital to the survival of the fittest concept??? But women refuse to understand this. Once this has been taken away, we are no longer men with a purpose, we are lost little boys.
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Peace esimsek
may be you talk about america ? Things about alimony aso have changed in Europe. Nowadays things are much more balanced, and if the woman is the bigger bread earner it's sometimes her that has to pay...
anyway, alimony is a normal thing if one partner stopped working to take care of kids aso...whatever that partner is.
in my personal case i left my ex with no alimony at all and i didn't ask for any. but we're in such good terms that i know that he would help me in case of financial difficulty
no what about being emotionnally abused ? don't you think that happens to women as well ? what about our ego ?
and about being sex object to men, yes we are, but sorry, men are also sex objects to women...do you object ? (i have some guy in mind wow, but... i'm fasting and should control my thoughts )
i say that in many cases feminism has brought a much harder life to women many women i know (don't forget, i live in morocco), work outside their home and have to manage the home, the kids aso as well, double and triple work but hubby just comes home after work and expects to be served...before at least women used to have only two jobs - home and kids (don't get me wrong, i personnally don't want to go back there, but its a personal choice...)
What i want to convey is that each situation is different, each time it's the usual stupid game between men and women, to one's, the other or both detriment. we should all grow up and see the real issues and not throw stones on the opposite side...we all live in glasshouses
elke
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I agree with this article, one or two sentences may have a little female-bashing leanings but apart from that it makes not only perfect but obvious sense.
Again, not knowing about the situation in America, I would believe it's a little more PC than the UK; over here people have talked about such things openly rather than have been shouted down.
So what, men are more prone sexual failings of lust and adultery and women are more prone to being overly nasty to others due to their emotions, we're all different to a certain extent. We all have our demons, whether they're rooted in our past or in our very selves, just like Jinn we must overcome these to become good people.
From 2233
"No soul shall have a burden laid on it greater than it can bear"
Whether, Male or Female, we must all try our hardest to be good people, and that means not being adulterous or to overreact and treat others unfairly.
Both humans and animals have instinct and urges, the only difference between us is not necessarily our intellect but moreso our ability to control and moderate these animalistic properties to become something more. If we use certain features of ourselves to justify why we had no choice in doing so, then we certainly aren't sane but also how can we consider ourselves something better than an animal?
Peace Sisters and Brothers
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Peace Elke,
What i want to convey is that each situation is different, each time it's the usual stupid game between men and women, to one's, the other or both detriment. we should all grow up and see the real issues and not throw stones on the opposite side...we all live in glasshouses
Well put sis. Like you, I don't agree to broad generalistions as you noted in your earlier post.
i say that in many cases feminism has brought a much harder life to women many women i know (don't forget, i live in morocco), work outside their home and have to manage the home, the kids aso as well, double and triple work but hubby just comes home after work and expects to be served...before at least women used to have only two jobs - home and kids (don't get me wrong, i personnally don't want to go back there, but its a personal choice...)
Agreed. Ups and downs depending on situations and circumstances. I would say we should all do our part depending on factors and that's what matters. These role games in RL are irritating (not rpgs, they rock).
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Hey, I'm a nice feminist but I can cook a savage carrot D There was this ad on Mtv from the 80's...where the tag line was 'a woman who can bring home the bacon' or something, really laugh out loud, you should d/l it. It was showing a woman who could do everything, work and then come back home, cook the food etc...that post about the moroccan women reminded me.
Rpg's are role playing games where you build your own character and take them through a story or just hack and slash monsters in a dungeon crawl. You would like them lots.
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Peace Elke,
Peace esimsek
may be you talk about america ? Things about alimony aso have changed in Europe. Nowadays things are much more balanced, and if the woman is the bigger bread earner it's sometimes her that has to pay...
anyway, alimony is a normal thing if one partner stopped working to take care of kids aso...whatever that partner is.
in my personal case i left my ex with no alimony at all and i didn't ask for any. but we're in such good terms that i know that he would help me in case of financial difficulty
That's great that you're on a friend/friend basis with your ex, but I was using the not so friendly examples. For the divorce cases, it's not so much America I have to go on, but here in australia.
Was listening to a radio programme a while ago, and they had fathers who'd lost custody of their kids. These grown men were crying on live radio because they couldn't see their kids. And frankly this is all too common in first world nations.
no what about being emotionnally abused ? don't you think that happens to women as well ? what about our ego ?
http//cyberparent.com/abuse/maleabuse.htm
http//www.sheridanhill.com/batteredmen.html
And there are plenty of more pages which suggest that in 1st world western nations, men are more abused by women than vice versa. In all this feministic movement, a man's right has completely been stomped on, men are 'apparently' always the pigs.
and about being sex object to men, yes we are, but sorry, men are also sex objects to women...do you object ? (i have some guy in mind wow, but... i'm fasting and should control my thoughts )
I agree that we are sxual objects for women, but I don't believe I've ever heard a man complain about being a sxual object. Whereas women, sorry but it really gets to me that cetain women are aggravated that we see them as s*xual objects. If anything, it isn't a reflection on females, but more a reflection of the male psyche. Who am I to argue with what I've been programmed (natural instict) to do???????
i say that in many cases feminism has brought a much harder life to women many women i know (don't forget, i live in morocco), work outside their home and have to manage the home, the kids aso as well, double and triple work but hubby just comes home after work and expects to be served...before at least women used to have only two jobs - home and kids (don't get me wrong, i personnally don't want to go back there, but its a personal choice...)
Well do you suggest that men grow a uterus, and large breasts?????? Now you may think I'm sounding ridiculous, but what other option is there??? We were bred to be hunters, not carers. It's only been in the past 20-40 yrs were there was an expectation for men to help around the house and with the kids. We've been evolving for thousands of yrs and now all of a sudden, men are expected to change???? I hardly think that's fair. We must be given understanding and TIME. but no we are labelled as lazy, no gooders.
What i want to convey is that each situation is different, each time it's the usual stupid game between men and women, to one's, the other or both detriment. we should all grow up and see the real issues and not throw stones on the opposite side...we all live in glasshouses
elke
Elke in a relationship, or picking up situation, it's never the guy who plays the games, we chase, that's all we do (in that game). We've, most likely, only got one thought on our mind. Whereas on the other side of the table, there is a certain s*x who get's men to jump through numerous hoops, before he's accepted.
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Peace esimsek,
sorry but you kind of give me the rope i can strangle you with
it's never the guy who plays the games, we chase, that's all we do (in that game). We've, most likely, only got one thought on our mind.
If that's really the case the guys don't deserve better. >D
No but joking aside, i reiter my standpoint. Grow up and work on it.
I don't deny the possibility of women playing games, i see it around me, but i also believe that they do it du to conditionning, being for centuries in the weaker position they often resort to indirect approaches in order to resolve problems, conturn obstacles instead of facing them and being more into manipulating than the other sex, used to simply impose things as of male authority...but these are commonplaces as well. Not evry woman / man is like that.
Sorry gotta go !
LK
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As salamu alaykum wr wb.
Respectfully.Who cares about the differences between men and women, it's important that we get along and that this "difference" will not cause another war between the sexes.
I mean, yes, i see the difference but i don't concern myself with such minor detailes.
I mean, i don't have the time, i write scripts, i work, ..... there are so many importantr things i got in my life so far ..... it's insane.As salamu alaykum wr wb.
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Peace
Warning this might irritate some-Biology shows that the pressure for a foetus in a womb is to become female.
-The male to be has to fight every step of the way to retain its male (hormonal) characteristics.
-That being said, I look at the male/female divide as being a spectrum.
-There are two aspects physical and emotional/mental.
-The physical is the overwhelming factor taken into consideration to catalog a male or a female, but you can have a male with emotional/mental characteristics usually associated to a female(such as nurturing, verbal abilities, artistic creativity, empathy, etc) or a female with emotional/mental characteristics usually associated to a male (such as competitiveness, hunting, leadership, logical, etc)
-However it gets more complicated with education, upbringing and environment, especially in the formative years.
-If that were not enough, there is also the extra factors, such as genetics, irrespective of the sexes certain genetic markups, such as blood types, will determine one's propensity towards certain character traits as opposed to others (I direct you here to the excellent work of PJ D'Adamo who made some good research on the relationship between character and blood type).
To sum up, no simple answer, but as always, the environment plays a very important role, and this is what we can control...
Bless you all
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Peace all,
I think I'm being misunderstood here. I have no issues with justifiable women's rights and indeed I have no issues with justifiable men's rights.
My pain is, that at the moment, the feminist movement is stepping on the toes of WHO/WHAT men are.
We are being asked, NOT to be men. Actually we're being ordered not to be men. And this in no way sits right with me.
No but joking aside, i reiter my standpoint. Grow up and work on it.
I don't deny the possibility of women playing games, i see it around me, but i also believe that they do it du to conditionning, being for centuries in the weaker position they often resort to indirect approaches in order to resolve problems, conturn obstacles instead of facing them and being more into manipulating than the other sex, used to simply impose things as of male authority...but these are commonplaces as well. Not evry woman / man is like that.
Elke, I have seen women dangle a piece of meat in front of men, and then drag it away and call out 's*xual harrassment'.
I have seen men get up and offer their seat (on a train or bus) and then have a nasty comment or a death stare directed towards those same men, by the woman who was offered the seat.
I have seen men say to a woman, how beautiful she looks that day, and the woman cries s*xual harrassment.
And guess what the ruling in the western world is, the man is at fault!!!!!
We're damned if we do, we're damned if we don't.
You said it yourself, that women manipulate because they are the phsyically weaker s*x. What are we to do?? Learn how to manipulate the way certain women do?? But what if we don't feel morally content (should we attempt to manipulate)??
You are joking right? That's the funniest statement I have ever heard in my life!
See this Elke?? This is the kind of stereotype abused men have to get past. A man can't be abused by a woman, never, it's not possible. But it clearly does happen, and in the western world it is more prevalent than a man abusing a woman. Men have no one to turn to, if revealed it is a massive blow to our ego, and a loss of face (Please remember that I said a man's ego is vital to him).
You talk about the ego, that's one of the biggest problems that are the problem with men.
See another example of a lack of will to be understanding. It's a 'problem' with men. Every man has an ego, some are lacking in confidence, some are medium confidence, some are glowing in confidence. Remember ladies, it's confidence that makes a man attractive. It is our ego which is vital to many aspects of our life. It is confidence which enables us to work out and raise our testosterone levels. It is confidence that aids us in getting a promotion and successfully competing with the rest of the workforce. It is confidence that makes us more attractive to females. It is confidence that makes us socially pleasing creatures. Do you get the drift?? And no don't tell me confidence is one thing and ego is another. They are directly related.
I'm not asking for a complete halt in the feminist movement. I'm asking that feminism consider the impact it may have on men. I'm asking that there be a better understanding of who and what men are. I'm asking that men are not left behind and treated like second class citizens.
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Peace,
My pain is, that at the moment, the feminist movement is stepping on the toes of WHO/WHAT men are.
We are being asked, NOT to be men. Actually we're being ordered not to be men. And this in no way sits right with me.
I would like you to define what a man is please and what is the criteria that is being used to gauge what a man is. This, if not clear, obviously is different from the physical aspect of the...differences as you noted in your post.
Elke, I have seen women dangle a piece of meat in front of men, and then drag it away and call out 's*xual harrassment'.
If a woman is being a tease, I don't see how that is so awfully different from men doing their own stuff in their own way, which has already been accepted?
I have seen men get up and offer their seat (on a train or bus) and then have a nasty comment or a death stare directed towards those same men, by the woman who was offered the seat.
Um...so, is this like really common? I mean I have never seen this happen in all the years I was staying in a '1st world country'. All the women I've seen on the T (in Boston), thank the man quite sincerely for doing so, inclusive of myself. This seems to be a one off case with a disturbed woman. Infact, I've even seen younger women get up to give up their seat for older people (men AND women) or people with kids, inclusive of myself. It's just good manners and not having to do with gender as such.
I have seen men say to a woman, how beautiful she looks that day, and the woman cries s*xual harrassment.
And guess what the ruling in the western world is, the man is at fault!!!!!
We're damned if we do, we're damned if we don't.
You know Disclosure came out quite a few years back. I don't think the situation is as bad as that. You do need evidence and this way of looking at things has changed to some degree.
You said it yourself, that women manipulate because they are the phsyically weaker s*x. What are we to do?? Learn how to manipulate the way certain women do?? But what if we don't feel morally content (should we attempt to manipulate)??
I would like to add my thoughts to this. Men and women are equally good at manipulation, take court intrigues in any given country and time period or politics. You think the men aren't manipulative? I think what Elke meant was that depending on circumstances, a woman can't openly ask for certain things or even show displeasure in a male dominated society. This holds true in a place like Pakistan as well, where all my life I've heard the older women complain about their husbands getting their way and them not able to talk back as they have a certain 'role' to play. Thus, they turn to indirect methods of achieving what they want as the direct method is most of the times doomed to failure and censure. This is not to say that they can't be direct. One chooses their strategy depending on circumstance and situation is all. Men AND women.
See this Elke?? This is the kind of stereotype abused men have to get past. A man can't be abused by a woman, never, it's not possible. But it clearly does happen, and in the western world it is more prevalent than a man abusing a woman. Men have no one to turn to, if revealed it is a massive blow to our ego, and a loss of face (Please remember that I said a man's ego is vital to him).
Ego should be vital to no man. Read no man as everyone, as that is a proverbial way of saying the same. The more people cling to their ego's, the more chances of problems exponentially.
See another example of a lack of will to be understanding. It's a 'problem' with men. Every man has an ego, some are lacking in confidence, some are medium confidence, some are glowing in confidence. Remember ladies, it's confidence that makes a man attractive. It is our ego which is vital to many aspects of our life. It is confidence which enables us to work out and raise our testosterone levels. It is confidence that aids us in getting a promotion and successfully competing with the rest of the workforce. It is confidence that makes us more attractive to females. It is confidence that makes us socially pleasing creatures. Do you get the drift?? And no don't tell me confidence is one thing and ego is another. They are directly related.
I'm not asking for a complete halt in the feminist movement. I'm asking that feminism consider the impact it may have on men. I'm asking that there be a better understanding of who and what men are. I'm asking that men are not left behind and treated like second class citizens.
Confidence makes a woman attractive to men as well. Read some studies on what men find attractive in a woman done in 1st world countries. Ego is not vital. Confidence and belief in oneself is gender neutral. As are many traits thought to be exclusive to a gender. I don't agree with mainstream feminism, I think most are a bunch of whacked bitter women. I would ask again though...what defines a 'man' and what is that 'criteria'? The testosterone levels can vary, does that mean a physical man with less testosterone than another man would be a lesser man? Maybe all men should start taking testosterone to be more manly than the next ;D
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Peace
Interesting discussion here. This is really sociology.
A lot of these things have nothing to do with Islam.
Islam is a general framework or foundation to build on using the Quran.
After that Society can live as it wishes using consensus/consultation.
As for private issues within families, it is also up to the family (as individuals and as a group) to agree on what their inner workings and boundaries are,
ideally with a startup base being the Quran.
The same in the work place or corporation.
It is pretty open, and is supposed to respect individuals' choices (within the remit of the boundaries suggested by Allah in The Quran).
Unfortunately as we know, there are many injustices that are being made in the name of Islam, but they have nothing to do with Islam...
Salam -
I agree with you, noble. That's generally how it is.