There is a major difference between men and women afterall
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Peace Elke,
What i want to convey is that each situation is different, each time it's the usual stupid game between men and women, to one's, the other or both detriment. we should all grow up and see the real issues and not throw stones on the opposite side...we all live in glasshouses
Well put sis. Like you, I don't agree to broad generalistions as you noted in your earlier post.
i say that in many cases feminism has brought a much harder life to women many women i know (don't forget, i live in morocco), work outside their home and have to manage the home, the kids aso as well, double and triple work but hubby just comes home after work and expects to be served...before at least women used to have only two jobs - home and kids (don't get me wrong, i personnally don't want to go back there, but its a personal choice...)
Agreed. Ups and downs depending on situations and circumstances. I would say we should all do our part depending on factors and that's what matters. These role games in RL are irritating (not rpgs, they rock).
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Hey, I'm a nice feminist but I can cook a savage carrot D There was this ad on Mtv from the 80's...where the tag line was 'a woman who can bring home the bacon' or something, really laugh out loud, you should d/l it. It was showing a woman who could do everything, work and then come back home, cook the food etc...that post about the moroccan women reminded me.
Rpg's are role playing games where you build your own character and take them through a story or just hack and slash monsters in a dungeon crawl. You would like them lots.
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Peace Elke,
Peace esimsek
may be you talk about america ? Things about alimony aso have changed in Europe. Nowadays things are much more balanced, and if the woman is the bigger bread earner it's sometimes her that has to pay...
anyway, alimony is a normal thing if one partner stopped working to take care of kids aso...whatever that partner is.
in my personal case i left my ex with no alimony at all and i didn't ask for any. but we're in such good terms that i know that he would help me in case of financial difficulty
That's great that you're on a friend/friend basis with your ex, but I was using the not so friendly examples. For the divorce cases, it's not so much America I have to go on, but here in australia.
Was listening to a radio programme a while ago, and they had fathers who'd lost custody of their kids. These grown men were crying on live radio because they couldn't see their kids. And frankly this is all too common in first world nations.
no what about being emotionnally abused ? don't you think that happens to women as well ? what about our ego ?
http//cyberparent.com/abuse/maleabuse.htm
http//www.sheridanhill.com/batteredmen.html
And there are plenty of more pages which suggest that in 1st world western nations, men are more abused by women than vice versa. In all this feministic movement, a man's right has completely been stomped on, men are 'apparently' always the pigs.
and about being sex object to men, yes we are, but sorry, men are also sex objects to women...do you object ? (i have some guy in mind wow, but... i'm fasting and should control my thoughts )
I agree that we are sxual objects for women, but I don't believe I've ever heard a man complain about being a sxual object. Whereas women, sorry but it really gets to me that cetain women are aggravated that we see them as s*xual objects. If anything, it isn't a reflection on females, but more a reflection of the male psyche. Who am I to argue with what I've been programmed (natural instict) to do???????
i say that in many cases feminism has brought a much harder life to women many women i know (don't forget, i live in morocco), work outside their home and have to manage the home, the kids aso as well, double and triple work but hubby just comes home after work and expects to be served...before at least women used to have only two jobs - home and kids (don't get me wrong, i personnally don't want to go back there, but its a personal choice...)
Well do you suggest that men grow a uterus, and large breasts?????? Now you may think I'm sounding ridiculous, but what other option is there??? We were bred to be hunters, not carers. It's only been in the past 20-40 yrs were there was an expectation for men to help around the house and with the kids. We've been evolving for thousands of yrs and now all of a sudden, men are expected to change???? I hardly think that's fair. We must be given understanding and TIME. but no we are labelled as lazy, no gooders.
What i want to convey is that each situation is different, each time it's the usual stupid game between men and women, to one's, the other or both detriment. we should all grow up and see the real issues and not throw stones on the opposite side...we all live in glasshouses
elke
Elke in a relationship, or picking up situation, it's never the guy who plays the games, we chase, that's all we do (in that game). We've, most likely, only got one thought on our mind. Whereas on the other side of the table, there is a certain s*x who get's men to jump through numerous hoops, before he's accepted.
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Peace esimsek,
sorry but you kind of give me the rope i can strangle you with
it's never the guy who plays the games, we chase, that's all we do (in that game). We've, most likely, only got one thought on our mind.
If that's really the case the guys don't deserve better. >D
No but joking aside, i reiter my standpoint. Grow up and work on it.
I don't deny the possibility of women playing games, i see it around me, but i also believe that they do it du to conditionning, being for centuries in the weaker position they often resort to indirect approaches in order to resolve problems, conturn obstacles instead of facing them and being more into manipulating than the other sex, used to simply impose things as of male authority...but these are commonplaces as well. Not evry woman / man is like that.
Sorry gotta go !
LK
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As salamu alaykum wr wb.
Respectfully.Who cares about the differences between men and women, it's important that we get along and that this "difference" will not cause another war between the sexes.
I mean, yes, i see the difference but i don't concern myself with such minor detailes.
I mean, i don't have the time, i write scripts, i work, ..... there are so many importantr things i got in my life so far ..... it's insane.As salamu alaykum wr wb.
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Peace
Warning this might irritate some-Biology shows that the pressure for a foetus in a womb is to become female.
-The male to be has to fight every step of the way to retain its male (hormonal) characteristics.
-That being said, I look at the male/female divide as being a spectrum.
-There are two aspects physical and emotional/mental.
-The physical is the overwhelming factor taken into consideration to catalog a male or a female, but you can have a male with emotional/mental characteristics usually associated to a female(such as nurturing, verbal abilities, artistic creativity, empathy, etc) or a female with emotional/mental characteristics usually associated to a male (such as competitiveness, hunting, leadership, logical, etc)
-However it gets more complicated with education, upbringing and environment, especially in the formative years.
-If that were not enough, there is also the extra factors, such as genetics, irrespective of the sexes certain genetic markups, such as blood types, will determine one's propensity towards certain character traits as opposed to others (I direct you here to the excellent work of PJ D'Adamo who made some good research on the relationship between character and blood type).
To sum up, no simple answer, but as always, the environment plays a very important role, and this is what we can control...
Bless you all
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Peace all,
I think I'm being misunderstood here. I have no issues with justifiable women's rights and indeed I have no issues with justifiable men's rights.
My pain is, that at the moment, the feminist movement is stepping on the toes of WHO/WHAT men are.
We are being asked, NOT to be men. Actually we're being ordered not to be men. And this in no way sits right with me.
No but joking aside, i reiter my standpoint. Grow up and work on it.
I don't deny the possibility of women playing games, i see it around me, but i also believe that they do it du to conditionning, being for centuries in the weaker position they often resort to indirect approaches in order to resolve problems, conturn obstacles instead of facing them and being more into manipulating than the other sex, used to simply impose things as of male authority...but these are commonplaces as well. Not evry woman / man is like that.
Elke, I have seen women dangle a piece of meat in front of men, and then drag it away and call out 's*xual harrassment'.
I have seen men get up and offer their seat (on a train or bus) and then have a nasty comment or a death stare directed towards those same men, by the woman who was offered the seat.
I have seen men say to a woman, how beautiful she looks that day, and the woman cries s*xual harrassment.
And guess what the ruling in the western world is, the man is at fault!!!!!
We're damned if we do, we're damned if we don't.
You said it yourself, that women manipulate because they are the phsyically weaker s*x. What are we to do?? Learn how to manipulate the way certain women do?? But what if we don't feel morally content (should we attempt to manipulate)??
You are joking right? That's the funniest statement I have ever heard in my life!
See this Elke?? This is the kind of stereotype abused men have to get past. A man can't be abused by a woman, never, it's not possible. But it clearly does happen, and in the western world it is more prevalent than a man abusing a woman. Men have no one to turn to, if revealed it is a massive blow to our ego, and a loss of face (Please remember that I said a man's ego is vital to him).
You talk about the ego, that's one of the biggest problems that are the problem with men.
See another example of a lack of will to be understanding. It's a 'problem' with men. Every man has an ego, some are lacking in confidence, some are medium confidence, some are glowing in confidence. Remember ladies, it's confidence that makes a man attractive. It is our ego which is vital to many aspects of our life. It is confidence which enables us to work out and raise our testosterone levels. It is confidence that aids us in getting a promotion and successfully competing with the rest of the workforce. It is confidence that makes us more attractive to females. It is confidence that makes us socially pleasing creatures. Do you get the drift?? And no don't tell me confidence is one thing and ego is another. They are directly related.
I'm not asking for a complete halt in the feminist movement. I'm asking that feminism consider the impact it may have on men. I'm asking that there be a better understanding of who and what men are. I'm asking that men are not left behind and treated like second class citizens.
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Peace,
My pain is, that at the moment, the feminist movement is stepping on the toes of WHO/WHAT men are.
We are being asked, NOT to be men. Actually we're being ordered not to be men. And this in no way sits right with me.
I would like you to define what a man is please and what is the criteria that is being used to gauge what a man is. This, if not clear, obviously is different from the physical aspect of the...differences as you noted in your post.
Elke, I have seen women dangle a piece of meat in front of men, and then drag it away and call out 's*xual harrassment'.
If a woman is being a tease, I don't see how that is so awfully different from men doing their own stuff in their own way, which has already been accepted?
I have seen men get up and offer their seat (on a train or bus) and then have a nasty comment or a death stare directed towards those same men, by the woman who was offered the seat.
Um...so, is this like really common? I mean I have never seen this happen in all the years I was staying in a '1st world country'. All the women I've seen on the T (in Boston), thank the man quite sincerely for doing so, inclusive of myself. This seems to be a one off case with a disturbed woman. Infact, I've even seen younger women get up to give up their seat for older people (men AND women) or people with kids, inclusive of myself. It's just good manners and not having to do with gender as such.
I have seen men say to a woman, how beautiful she looks that day, and the woman cries s*xual harrassment.
And guess what the ruling in the western world is, the man is at fault!!!!!
We're damned if we do, we're damned if we don't.
You know Disclosure came out quite a few years back. I don't think the situation is as bad as that. You do need evidence and this way of looking at things has changed to some degree.
You said it yourself, that women manipulate because they are the phsyically weaker s*x. What are we to do?? Learn how to manipulate the way certain women do?? But what if we don't feel morally content (should we attempt to manipulate)??
I would like to add my thoughts to this. Men and women are equally good at manipulation, take court intrigues in any given country and time period or politics. You think the men aren't manipulative? I think what Elke meant was that depending on circumstances, a woman can't openly ask for certain things or even show displeasure in a male dominated society. This holds true in a place like Pakistan as well, where all my life I've heard the older women complain about their husbands getting their way and them not able to talk back as they have a certain 'role' to play. Thus, they turn to indirect methods of achieving what they want as the direct method is most of the times doomed to failure and censure. This is not to say that they can't be direct. One chooses their strategy depending on circumstance and situation is all. Men AND women.
See this Elke?? This is the kind of stereotype abused men have to get past. A man can't be abused by a woman, never, it's not possible. But it clearly does happen, and in the western world it is more prevalent than a man abusing a woman. Men have no one to turn to, if revealed it is a massive blow to our ego, and a loss of face (Please remember that I said a man's ego is vital to him).
Ego should be vital to no man. Read no man as everyone, as that is a proverbial way of saying the same. The more people cling to their ego's, the more chances of problems exponentially.
See another example of a lack of will to be understanding. It's a 'problem' with men. Every man has an ego, some are lacking in confidence, some are medium confidence, some are glowing in confidence. Remember ladies, it's confidence that makes a man attractive. It is our ego which is vital to many aspects of our life. It is confidence which enables us to work out and raise our testosterone levels. It is confidence that aids us in getting a promotion and successfully competing with the rest of the workforce. It is confidence that makes us more attractive to females. It is confidence that makes us socially pleasing creatures. Do you get the drift?? And no don't tell me confidence is one thing and ego is another. They are directly related.
I'm not asking for a complete halt in the feminist movement. I'm asking that feminism consider the impact it may have on men. I'm asking that there be a better understanding of who and what men are. I'm asking that men are not left behind and treated like second class citizens.
Confidence makes a woman attractive to men as well. Read some studies on what men find attractive in a woman done in 1st world countries. Ego is not vital. Confidence and belief in oneself is gender neutral. As are many traits thought to be exclusive to a gender. I don't agree with mainstream feminism, I think most are a bunch of whacked bitter women. I would ask again though...what defines a 'man' and what is that 'criteria'? The testosterone levels can vary, does that mean a physical man with less testosterone than another man would be a lesser man? Maybe all men should start taking testosterone to be more manly than the next ;D
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Peace
Interesting discussion here. This is really sociology.
A lot of these things have nothing to do with Islam.
Islam is a general framework or foundation to build on using the Quran.
After that Society can live as it wishes using consensus/consultation.
As for private issues within families, it is also up to the family (as individuals and as a group) to agree on what their inner workings and boundaries are,
ideally with a startup base being the Quran.
The same in the work place or corporation.
It is pretty open, and is supposed to respect individuals' choices (within the remit of the boundaries suggested by Allah in The Quran).
Unfortunately as we know, there are many injustices that are being made in the name of Islam, but they have nothing to do with Islam...
Salam -
I agree with you, noble. That's generally how it is.
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s*xual
? Why the asterisk? Sex isn't a swear...its an a verb, an "activity", something we do.
Im curious why you asterisked it.
-Reza
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Peace
Peace,
If a woman is being a tease, I don't see how that is so awfully different from men doing their own stuff in their own way, which has already been accepted?
Such as? I.e. give me examples of men doing what women do.
Um...so, is this like really common? I mean I have never seen this happen in all the years I was staying in a '1st world country'. All the women I've seen on the T (in Boston), thank the man quite sincerely for doing so, inclusive of myself. This seems to be a one off case with a disturbed woman. Infact, I've even seen younger women get up to give up their seat for older people (men AND women) or people with kids, inclusive of myself. It's just good manners and not having to do with gender as such.
It's common here in Australia. There's this underlying tone that men can't control themselves. )
You know Disclosure came out quite a few years back. I don't think the situation is as bad as that. You do need evidence and this way of looking at things has changed to some degree.
True, but still the courts are more likely to favour the woman's version.
I would like to add my thoughts to this. Men and women are equally good at manipulation, take court intrigues in any given country and time period or politics. You think the men aren't manipulative? I think what Elke meant was that depending on circumstances, a woman can't openly ask for certain things or even show displeasure in a male dominated society. This holds true in a place like Pakistan as well, where all my life I've heard the older women complain about their husbands getting their way and them not able to talk back as they have a certain 'role' to play. Thus, they turn to indirect methods of achieving what they want as the direct method is most of the times doomed to failure and censure. This is not to say that they can't be direct. One chooses their strategy depending on circumstance and situation is all. Men AND women.
Did you ever see me refer to nations like Pakistan??? I'm speaking of western 1st world nations. Where apparently, the people are a lot more civilized and have thought things through.
And on another note, Men hardly manipulate, they are too stupid for that. Well not stupid but it's not our way. We are much more direct and to the point, and if circumstances permit, we exert our physical dominance.
Ego should be vital to no man. Read no man as everyone, as that is a proverbial way of saying the same. The more people cling to their ego's, the more chances of problems exponentially.
Confidence makes a woman attractive to men as well. Read some studies on what men find attractive in a woman done in 1st world countries. Ego is not vital. Confidence and belief in oneself is gender neutral. As are many traits thought to be exclusive to a gender. I don't agree with mainstream feminism, I think most are a bunch of whacked bitter women. I would ask again though...what defines a 'man' and what is that 'criteria'? The testosterone levels can vary, does that mean a physical man with less testosterone than another man would be a lesser man? Maybe all men should start taking testosterone to be more manly than the next ;D
I completely disagree with your notion that ego is not vital to men.
Taken from dictionary.com-
- egotism; conceit; self-importance
- self-esteem or self-image; feelings
n 1 an inflated feeling of pride in your superiority to others
Yes too much pride is a vice, however, it is still needed. Ego is directly linked with confidence in one's self.
At the moment a man is nothing but a money gaining tool. We work to provide, now I certainly don't disagree with that, but there is quite more to us than only that.
As far as your studies of what men find attractive in a women, I don't need to read it, I am a man remember?
Now for your request of what a man is-
A man is a hunter, a protector, a conqueror, an explorer, a leader, a family leader, etc, etc, etc
Many eons ago man used to physically fight for the attention of females, to prove to females that we are the strongest of our species and that we have the best genes to past down. Now this trait hasn't been erased from our DNA, it has transformed.
Some men still do physically fight, while others verbally spar. This is what a man is. Take away our boxing, because it's too violent, and where do you stop???? Take away our other contact sports, and we are basically saying it's bad to be a man.
When a young male child falls and starts crying, the mother tends to him, while the father tells him to shut up and get up. As stated before, men, in this generation in western nations, are no longer brought up by their fathers, hence they don't learn the ability to be independent, and pick themselves up, from a very young age. It's a stutter in our emotional growth.
This is what men are, but today's feminist movement is putting a stop to what we are. We're too violent and supposedly should be more in touch with our softer side, we supposedly should show emotion, we supposedly should be less violent, we supposedly should be less sexually discriminating (to a degree I agree), etc, etc.
What we are is being taken away from us, we cannot help what we are. We perve at girls, we fight with each other (to establish dominance), we take responsibility for our families (and as stated just before, we establish our dominance over, all around us, yes including our wives).
You ask about testosterone, do you know what testosterone does to a body??? It makes us more violent, it makes us seek domination, it provides our mentality with well-being, it increases our libido. And this testosterone is provided naturally by our bodies. So in a way yes, a man producing less testosterone can be considered less of a man.
I repeat what I said earlier, I have no problems with the feminist movement, so long as they don't step on the toes of WHAT men are. We certainly cannot help what our body controls us to do.
? Why the asterisk? Sex isn't a swear...its an a verb, an "activity", something we do.
Im curious why you asterisked it.
I thought this forum might filter out the word sex, apparently it doesn't
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Such as? I.e. give me examples of men doing what women do.
That is not what the sentence meant but since you asked, there are plenty examples where men do what women do and vice versa thus making it gender neutral. I can't believe I have to give examples of this.
It's common here in Australia. There's this underlying tone that men can't control themselves.
There's a big world out there. Speaking of which I read that the anti-feminism movement is quite on the rise there in guardian. Some group of beer drinking cavemen wanting to go back to the days when they used to club women over the head and drag them to their lairs claiming women today are taking that away from them and their beefy 'australian manly nature'
True, but still the courts are more likely to favour the woman's version.
Subjective.
Did you ever see me refer to nations like Pakistan??? I'm speaking of western 1st world nations. Where apparently, the people are a lot more civilized and have thought things through.
And on another note, Men hardly manipulate, they are too stupid for that. Well not stupid but it's not our way. We are much more direct and to the point, and if circumstances permit, we exert our physical dominance.
Notice the 'as well' in my quote. It's a general statement having to do with more than one aspect of the discussion. Speaking of western 1st world nations, ever been to the midwest in the US? You'd be surprised at the similarities of thought prevalent in countries the world over regardless of their numerical ranking. It's not surprising because we are all human.
I disagree with your 'men hardly manipulate' as I've said in my previous post. Men and women equally choose the best method to gain their goals keeping in consideration their situation.
I completely disagree with your notion that ego is not vital to men.
Taken from dictionary.com-
- egotism; conceit; self-importance
- self-esteem or self-image; feelings
n 1 an inflated feeling of pride in your superiority to others
Yes too much pride is a vice, however, it is still needed. Ego is directly linked with confidence in one's self.
It's a self-fulfilling circle you've got going here. "Ego is vital to man because I say so and I'm a man". Notice the confidence in one's self and the keyword you use man. Tbh I can't believe you're arguing ego is vital to men let alone anyone especially since you must have noted it has negative connotations.
At the moment a man is nothing but a money gaining tool. We work to provide, now I certainly don't disagree with that, but there is quite more to us than only that.
As far as your studies of what men find attractive in a women, I don't need to read it, I am a man remember?
Now for your request of what a man is-
A man is a hunter, a protector, a conqueror, an explorer, a leader, a family leader, etc, etc, etc
Many eons ago man used to physically fight for the attention of females, to prove to females that we are the strongest of our species and that we have the best genes to past down. Now this trait hasn't been erased from our DNA, it has transformed.
There is quite more to us humans not just men and women. Yes, I remember you stating you're a man quite emphatically in every post, do you realise that you're not the only man around? What you think a man is, someone else might think differently. Many eons ago, our roles were different because of physical strength, which has changed in a time period where that isn't as important anymore and us being humans we adapt. You are arguing that we shouldn't adapt because eons ago manly hominids used to bash animals and bring home their skins?
Some men still do physically fight, while others verbally spar. This is what a man is. Take away our boxing, because it's too violent, and where do you stop? Take away our other contact sports, and we are basically saying it's bad to be a man.
When a young male child falls and starts crying, the mother tends to him, while the father tells him to shut up and get up. As stated before, men, in this generation in western nations, are no longer brought up by their fathers, hence they don't learn the ability to be independent, and pick themselves up, from a very young age. It's a stutter in our emotional growth.
Talking about physical fighting, some men like it and some don't. Those that don't might because of their preference not because they are confused or less of a man than the one that does. Women like fighting too, if you're talking about verbally sparring it is NOT exclusive to men and hasn't been for 'eons' as you like to put it. As for the parental reference, why are we going into generalisations? My grandmother and mother have quite disciplinarian throughout their lives and it's the fathers that have been more easy going as well as my friends who have noted this while growing up, that mothers in our past generation (since that is what we have to go on in personal experience land) have been quite strict (maybe having to do with the fact that they liked dominating the home scene and the many factors present therein thus making them authoritarian in their circle hence maybe more 'manly' according to you?). This changes in some situations but nowhere is there an underlying theme that a woman will tend to him and a father will tell him to shut up and get up as generalisations that are subjective tend to be unfactual for argument purposes which these impressions all are btw.
Once again adapatation is not a stutter in emotional growth, infact that will prove if men are actually worthy of carrying on being real men and not shadows of their 'eons' ago selves trying desperately to make it in a world that has changed quite a lot since then. The chances of failure if going the eon's route are quite maximised
This is what men are, but today's feminist movement is putting a stop to what we are. We're too violent and supposedly should be more in touch with our softer side, we supposedly should show emotion, we supposedly should be less violent, we supposedly should be less sexually discriminating (to a degree I agree), etc, etc.
What we are is being taken away from us, we cannot help what we are. We perve at girls, we fight with each other (to establish dominance), we take responsibility for our families (and as stated just before, we establish our dominance over, all around us, yes including our wives).
You ask about testosterone, do you know what testosterone does to a body??? It makes us more violent, it makes us seek domination, it provides our mentality with well-being, it increases our libido. And this testosterone is provided naturally by our bodies. So in a way yes, a man producing less testosterone can be considered less of a man.
I repeat what I said earlier, I have no problems with the feminist movement, so long as they don't step on the toes of WHAT men are. We certainly cannot help what our body controls us to do
I really don't agree with you for reasons previously stated as this is just a repeat of the rest. Remember, when times change, we change and adapt accordingly. Being civilised means we rise above what our body dictates whether a man or a woman. Arguing that this is what men are and this is what they should do is a no go because of the constant change in the way the world has evolved and we will evolve accordingly or become failures.
Peace