Are you a Scientologist? pay a small fee to find out!
-
That's a good way of putting it Arnold!
Peace
-
Peace
Thank you Tay. That was why I was connecting Scientology to the Quran.
This is what Khalil said
That does not imply that the stories have not happened, just that we presently have no way of verifying them. For example, if time travel were presently possible then the stories could be verified as having taken place or not having taken place.
But are supposed to wait? wait until there is a way to verify them? Why would anyone (including God) give us a book that we can't understand here and now?
If we can't verify them now, how do we know we'll be able to in the future?Al Quraishi,
You see, it ain't impossible, therefore the belief should not rely on your own mental prejudices about what can and can't happen (which we all have to some extent) but whether it's true or not, who are you to scoff at the events that could have happened millions of years ago?
I can make up a story too.
"there was an evil Italian man called Mario who lived inside a video game 100,0000,0000000,000000000000 x 10^143425324324 years ago on a planet called Dnalreven. There, he aimed to destroy every Italian jew on the planet. But God's nephew, Susej, rose up against him and killed Mario. Ending his evil reign of terror."
Since that is what happened, and I am the 145th incarnation of Susej, you have to do everything I say or go to hell.
And you can't possibly prove me wrong (you don't know what happend bajillion of years ago) it's better if you just take my word for it. -
But you aren't God dear Pheonix, you're just an imperfect person.
(No offense intended -[)
Explain further specific issues you have with the Qur'an and things contained within. Perhaps if we use specific exaples within the Qur'an instead of a General Islam-Scientology comparison we could get down to the root of things further and hopefully learn alot from each other in the process.
It's either the truth or a fabrication that didn't happen, I'm inclined to believe the former, Muhammad either existed or he was a story made up by God, Moses either existed or he was another story, such thoughts that you have have much greater implications toward your overall belief in Islam and the way you think the whole system works.
Don't you believe God sent messengers to mankind?
-
Peace
Of course I'm God. What are you talking about. I am the 145th reincarnation of Susej. Stop uttering blasphemy or i'll drag you to hell my self.
Sorry.Anyway...my point is that the stories in the quran, if there is no way we can verify them (and we should verify everything according to 1736), then they could (or should ) be allegories. Examples used to explain the quran's message. That means we can verify them here and now. We can see if the quran truly is true or not.
I don't know if God SENDS messengers, or people BECOME messengers. It's probably the latter.
As a specific example, how about the story of Adam? how do we verify if that ever happened, if we take Adam to be the first prophet, and angels and iblees to be physical beings?
-
Sorry.Anyway...my point is that the stories in the quran, if there is no way we can verify them (and we should verify everything according to 1736), then they could (or should ) be allegories. Examples used to explain the quran's message. That means we can verify them here and now. We can see if the quran truly is true or not.
I can see your angle regarding verification, but from what I see it, the Qur'an has many proofs showing it's from God, thus, I believe it's from God and hence I beleive the things that God tells us. So for me, such things as the miracles of the Qur'an (many single miracles occur throughout the Qur'an) verfiy its devine authorship thus, the Qur'an is a book from God, unchanged by man transmitting his criterion and guiding us to the best path.
We all know about the stories in the Qur'an and God tells us what they're there for, yes, I agree with many people like you who perhaps think that people concentrate too much on history rather than the messge so, if we think of this issue as pale in comparison compared to the more important dicussions regarding the actual message of the Qur'an then, for the sake of our salvation it doesn't matter whether they were real but it certainly does matter that we as individuals benefit from the message of what happened to these people.
That said, I have explained to you why I believe these people were real
Another question coming from this dear brother How do you think the Qur'an itself was transmitted?
-
peace
The truth is from God. So if something is true (we have verified it), it is from God.
So I believe we can only say that the Koran is from God if we have verified everything it says.
Anyway,to answer your question...
I think the Koran was written by a person who followed the right path and under deep meditation was "inspired" by God to the truths that he (or she?) later preached to others. The person used the stories that were already known to people (like the story of Jesus and Moses and Adam) to explain what was inspired to him. Thus we have what we have this book. We all have the ability to reach those truths like the messenger did.O You unto whom the Scripture was given! Reflect and believe in what We have revealed, that confirms the truth that you already possess, lest We efface your hopes and bring them to an end. Just as We rejected those people who broke the Sabbath. (You will lose your identity by getting scattered in the earth). Allah's Command is always done.
-
Peace,
May I first say I'm finding our dialogue pleasant and interesting brother.
I think the Koran was written by a person who followed the right path and under deep meditation was "inspired" by God to the truths that he (or she?) later preached to others. The person used the stories that were already known to people (like the story of Jesus and Moses and Adam) to explain what was inspired to him. Thus we have what we have this book. We all have the ability to reach those truths like the messenger did.
More specifically
"The person used the stories that were already known to people (like the story of Jesus and Moses and Adam) to explain what was inspired to him."
Question 1 Did the person relate these stories from the divine will or they get ones already written from the scripture and add them in?
Question 2 Do you think this he (or she?) was Muhammad?
Apologies for the bombardment of questions brother, I merely wish to know more of your views.
Peace
-
But are supposed to wait? wait until there is a way to verify them?
Why wait to find out something that has little to no relevance in your life? To make a change thats of benefit do you really need to know that someone else did the same thing thus many years ago, why wait for someelse to do something when you yourself can just do it?
Why would anyone (including God) give us a book that we can't understand here and now?
If we can't verify them now, how do we know we'll be able to in the future?How does that hamper our understanding of a book; there are books based not on actual events that still carry a message.
Point being, what does it matter whether these stories took place or not, thats not of importance. If you really want to see these stories, then look around, look for the potrayl of these aspects in others and in your self.
peace,
Khalil -
Point being, what does it matter whether these stories took place or not, thats not of importance. If you really want to see these stories, then look around, look for the potrayl of these aspects in others and in your self.
peace khalil
Good point. I was arguing that these stories probably didn't actually happen, but are just "lies" to explain what goes on in our daily lives ("artists use lies to tell the truth".
But you're right, it's not important whether they happened or not. But we have to verify them by relating them directly to our lives. -
humans did evolve from clams.
that's why we like to wear pearls DUH
-
My goodness! It's so obvious! Why didn't we realise that earlier???
-
Yes, but is that any better than other stories? particularly the ones in the Quran?
My point is that if we have no way of verifying the stories in the quran, then aren't we just like Scientologist?
How do we know we are right if we do not verify but blindly believe?
So...
the stories in the quran cannot have literally happened. Because then we would be no better than scientologists and the quran would be contradicting itself (1736).Salam Aleykom,
I believe I understand the jist of your post.From what I understand is that you are posing a questions "If we cant prove the stories that happened in the Quran then we are just as the scientologists".
Well, we do have proof, clear, detailed proof. It's very simple. Quran is the word of Allah, Allah is our proof. His word is truth and perfect. There is our proof.
Please let me know if I understood what your wrong or gruesomely misunderstood it.
-
peace Reza,
No you did not gruesomely misunderstand me (although that does happen sometimes). But what you offered is not proof.
I can say that the earth doesn't move because the bible says it doesn't move. And since the bible is God's words (it clearly says it is God's words), it is true. If it's true, then earth must not move.My point was that these stories might not have actually happened. Maybe there wasn't an actual person called "jesus" or "moses" (where are their last names anyway?) or "adam" but instead they are characters in allegorical stories told to us to help us understand the Quran's message.
We cannot verify these stories as historical accounts, which means we cannot believe in them as historical accounts. But we can verify them in our daily lives, thus we must use them as guidance to live by.
) -
My point was that these stories might not have actually happened. Maybe there wasn't an actual person called "jesus" or "moses" (where are their last names anyway?) or "adam" but instead they are characters in allegorical stories told to us to help us understand the Quran's message.
We cannot verify these stories as historical accounts, which means we cannot believe in them as historical accounts. But we can verify them in our daily lives, thus we must use them as guidance to live by.
)Wa Salam
If they are not real people then why does Allah refer to them as messangers and people who came before? Did Allah send a "not human" or "un-person" (I know, its not a word, but two words used to describe an idea) for people of old to follow?
Allah says in the Quran that when messangers came to them (people, sinners, etc) they saids "Stories of the old". As in, those are mythes, it never happened. Then Allah sent upon them a chastisment.
Brother, I'm not sure if you are moslem or not, but if you are, truely when Allah says they were sent people, then they were.
If you are not moslem, then this is not a good median of communication (seeing how text has no emotion behind it and that it is very plain) to talk about such a subject.
Get back to me on this )
Allahu Akbar.
-
Am I a muslim?
It's not up to me (or you for that matter) to decide, is it?
I prefer not to call myself anything. God will name me what God sees fit. God is the best judge.
I can certainly claim to be muslim, just like billions of others do, but will that make me one?
Will I submit to God just because I say I do? of course not.
I like to avoid meaningless labels.If they are not real people then why does Allah refer to them as messangers and people who came before? Did Allah send a "not human" or "un-person" (I know, its not a word, but two words used to describe an idea) for people of old to follow?
"stories of the old" can also mean history. But basically what that verse means is that the people who say that these stories are "outdated" and have no meaning in their current lives, no relevance, they are the ones who are punished. And when we take these stories literally, when we do take the prophets as historical figures, the relevance to our lives is lost.
If they are not real people then why does Allah refer to them as messangers and people who came before? Did Allah send a "not human" or "un-person" (I know, its not a word, but two words used to describe an idea) for people of old to follow?
They are metaphors. We need to follow the examples of Adam and Moses and Jesus. They represent US in different situations. We need to look at their example so that we can make better decisions and live better lives.
-
Pheonix1, I still fail to see what proof you have of that these people never existed. Prove from the Quran that they are not real people.
You didn't understand the verse brother, maybe you understood it differently.
When Our communications are recited to him, he says Stories of those of yore.
When Our communications are recited to him, he says Stories of those of yore.The communications are the revelations. When it is recited to them "jesus was born" "Moses split the sea" "etc" they say these are just stoies of yore, mere stories of the old, of the anceint.
When Our communications are recited to him, he says Stories of those of yore.
Nay! rather, what they used to do has become like rust . upon their hearts.
Nay! most surely they shall on that day be debarred from their Lord."nay!" They are not stories of yore. They actually happened.
Those who refuse to believe it "rather, what they used to do has become like rust . upon their hearts."
Plus brother, I never said your are not a moslem. I never made a judgement about your label in your belief nor anything. I merely asked you if you were a moslem or not so I could explain more or less. Seeing how if someone is not a moslem and is trying to aquire knoweledge they need more refrences and information as opposed to someone who already knows.
"Brother, I'm not sure if you are moslem or not, but if you are,...". Like I said, I dont know if you are or aren't, dont take it personal, i really dont know who you are.
Again, like I said "(seeing how text has no emotion behind it and that it is very plain)". I dont blame you for not understanding my post. Its hard to convey emotions through text. But for Allah though
-
PEace PHoenix1
You can believe in all that you said in the above post and still believe that they were real people. So the two beliefs don't necessarily cancel each other out.
-
peace Reza,
Pheonix1, I still fail to see what proof you have of that these people never existed. Prove from the Quran that they are not real people.
I fail to see your logic. How do I prove something doesn't exist? You are the one who's saying they exist, so you provide the proof.
All I am saying is that since we have no proof of their existence, and the quran tells us to bring proof and verify, we cannot believe these people actually existed.
But maybe we'll find out later that they did. But whether they existed or not isn't the important thing. What's important is that we learn something from these examples provided in the quran.The communications are the revelations. When it is recited to them "jesus was born" "Moses split the sea" "etc" they say these are just stoies of yore, mere stories of the old, of the anceint.
I don't think this verse has anything to do with whether these things actually happened or not, but whether these stories have any relevance to our lives or not. I'm saying they do. But that relevance is only there when we look for the deeper, metaphorical meaning. That's my position. (at the moment at least...)
Plus brother, I never said your are not a moslem. I never made a judgement about your label in your belief nor anything. I merely asked you if you were a moslem or not so I could explain more or less. Seeing how if someone is not a moslem and is trying to aquire knoweledge they need more refrences and information as opposed to someone who already knows.
I know you didn't. My point was that "Muslim" is just a meaningless label. Anyone can call themselves muslims and not be one. Get my point?
Why call ourselves anything at all?