The Quran Does Not Say How Many Rak'ahs There Are For Each Salah
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Peace be upon you Unknown,
Since you will be debating, I hope you will be prepared to show where the "2,4,4,3,4" Rakaat method is listed ANYWHERE in Quran or Hadith...yes even Hadith...I have yet in about 8 or 9 years seen anyone bring this information. I will await your response.
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Peace be upon you,
This thread is also under salaat section, and as stated there please show ANYWHERE in Quran or Hadith where the 2,4,4,3,4 schedule is shown. I have not seen this question addressed in 8 or 9 years of asking it.
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No Christian priests dont have us believe it. Its known when someone reads the letters of Paul or studies history, different groups arose in the early Church.
But the same cannot be said regarding the Muslims and their method of prayer.
The issue of the matter is that I am planning in the near future inshallah to go out public and start debating "Quran Onlys" such as yourselves. But before I do, i want to make sure about all your possible answers to my arguments. If these are the kind of quality arguments that i am to expect then i definately have nothing to worry about inshallah.
This is not intended to offend anyone.
Is there anyone out there with better answers?
It doesn't matter what is known about history. I KNOW that Muhammad didn't perform any supernatural miracles. But you believe he did. We're talking about what people believe. And what people believe is not always right.
You believe that everyone since the writing down of the quran is performing these rituals, but that doesn't it true.
I wouldn't classify myself as a quran only. I wouldn't classify myself as anything.But you have to be openminded when debating. I get a feeling that you aren't. If you know that you already know the truth, you can't learn. You don't progress.
Forget about hadith or quran only for a moment. Just take the quran as a simple book. A book. Now, how do you read and understand this book? do you look for other unrelated historical documents explaining this book, or do you trust yourself and verifiable information (rather than opinions) to understand it?
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Moderator Note This thread was originally two separate threads in two different sections. The threads have been merged into this one thread and placed in "Salat & Zakat (The Contact & Purification)". The posts are ordered chronologically, so the there should be minimal 'chaos' but some is to be expected.
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Peace Unknown,
No Christian priests dont have us believe it. Its known when someone reads the letters of Paul or studies history, different groups arose in the early Church.
But the same cannot be said regarding the Muslims and their method of prayer.
Take a look at a shahih hadith below in Shahih Bukhari
Volume 1, Book 8, Number 346
Narrated 'Aisha
the mother of believers Allah enjoined the prayer when He enjoined it, it was two Rakat only (in every prayer) both when in residence or on journey. Then the prayers offered on journey remained the same, but (the Rakat of) the prayers for non-travellers were increased.
According to the hadith, for non travellers the number of rakaat must be more than two rakaat. How many rakaat do you pray Subuh prayer? If it is two, then your prayer contradicts shahih Bukhari's hadith and hence according to sunni religion your prayer is VOID since it contradicts the sunna of the prophet ;D
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Excellent question Why not bring forward the hadiths which tell us all the rakats we need to do and the other details?
Just because one does not accept hadith as a source of guidance does not mean s/he does not pray in the manner that you pray (bowing, prostration and standing), in fact these are the salat position verified by the Qur'an.
It so happens most Muslims (even those who do their salah 5 times and day) have not read the Qur'an at all (except reciting it in Arabic ritually without understanding).
The authentic hadiths will not show you how to do salah completely the way you do it today (an assuption which you and many make when they ask "how do we pray?". There are some hadith that comment on certain aspects of salah, however, not all the details of salah exist even within the entire hadith compilation. According to the Qur'an, Prophet Ibraham offered salah at the Kabaa. Salah was not something new with the Prophet Muhammad and it would have been a familiar concept to the Arabs who heard the Qur'an back then, which was telling them to perform salah to Allah alone. For example, if I tell you to ride a bicycle, I assume you already know how to ride one.
Historically, even one of the earliest surahs talk about salah in the Qur'an, which suggests that salah was a familiar ritual. Remember, those around the Kaa'baa were Arabs who were trying to follow Prophet Ibraham who had lived at the same place, some of them were even descendants of him.
Then how is salah learnt? If you are like most, you learnt salah through your parents or care takers as you grew up. That is how it is really passed down - through the generations, as a ritual practice. You did not look into hadith books to learn this skill. Salat is better passed down through practice than through hadiths.
People have been performing salah at the sight of Ka'baa from the days of Prophet Ibrahim, and Prophet Muhammad, and continue to do so today in millions. The same thing can be said about hajj too.
The Qur'an however, confirms the compulsory positions of salah that must be there. Which is, standing, bowing (rukuh) and prostration (sujuud). If we deviate from having these primary positions in salah, then we would know we are moving away from the correct salah. But the good thing is that all Muslims who perform their salah today, do it according to these positions. So, if you do your five daily salah, you are doing it correctly. If you take the Qur'anic view, all the different madhab versions of salah, are correct (although interesting that the secterian view means, ones own sect is right and all the other sects are wrong!).
Qur'an gives the wudu sequence that has to be performed before salah, as well as tayammum, including the prayer times and qibla.
Lastly, the Qur'an is complete and fully detailed, it tells us so.
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The Qur'an however, confirms the compulsory positions of salah that must be there. Which is, standing, bowing (rukuh) and prostration (sujuud).
Then, where did the "sitting" after every other sujuud come from? Maybe it is not compulsary?
And according to the above, can we still say that the salaat we learn from "our fathers" is what the quraan explains? -
Salaam brothers and sisters,
Unknown, I was just wondering where are you? You came in threw a stone and seemed quite prepared to fight and defend your position but all of a sudden you disappeared. Did you change your mind now and decided not to go out public and debate this issue with Quran aloners?
Peace
FJ -
Peace be upon you all,
I guess I wil never get to see anyone show me where that (2,4,4,3,4) rakat schedule can be found. And the clock continues to run.
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Then, where did the "sitting" after every other sujuud come from? Maybe it is not compulsary?
And according to the above, can we still say that the salaat we learn from "our fathers" is what the quraan explains?The important aspect of salah is that it is done solely for Allah alone.
Salah was a familiar concept to those who heard the Qur'an back then. It was a matter of devoting worship solely to Allah alone. Salah was also performed by Prophets before the Prophet Muhammad.
