Previous Revelations also in Arabic Language
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peace Fahad,
sorry, but it is relevant.Lets see.
Because from what you are saying, it seems that you think that God chose arabic as a special language in which God would reveal it's message.
The book is revealed in arabic, yes.
And I'm saying that maybe God didn't choose. Maybe the people who wrote those books chose. Or maybe they didn't choose at all, maybe that's the only language they knew. The fact is that how we view the quran affects our understanding of it. So it's important, and relevant to pretty much everything. We need to make sure that we view the quran in the manner it should be viewed in.
If you wanna tell us that we should view the Quran as a man-made book, restrict yourself to the "Quranic Divinity" section. The entire section has been created to debate that. So don't spew it all over the forum.
About learning arabic. It is said that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. You can't memorize the meanings of 2000 words (or even 200000) and expect to make sense out of them. There are the words, then there is the grammar (to put together the words).
Even some parrots can learn about 1000 thousand words and can make sense of them. You are human! Humans can be efficient in many languages. But you? You can't make sense of just 2000 words?! The parrots beat you to it!
Unless you have a good basis in grammer, knowing the meanings of words is useless. You can't just learn a little bit and expect to understand a whole book with it. Hope you understand my point, Fahad.
What if the whole book is based on a little bit. Do you understand it now?
And if you've analyzed arabic of the quran based on memorization of it's words' meanings, then I don't know if I can trust your translations that much.
You have no choice except to trust translations. Because you live outside arabia. You just cannot ever understand Arabic, according to yourself. So why make claims about something you ?don?t know squat about??
Which language is clear according to the quran?
well, I think the whole debate on this thread is whether the quran singles out one language or not. You are saying it does, and Samia is saying it doesn't. If we disregard the quran for a moment, every language can be clear.But we do not disregard the Quran. You are on the wrong forum.
What is God's plan?
I don't know what God's plan is. But I'm not too sure that it involves the arabic language.God's plan does involve arabic, as well as the language of the people. The book in arabic, and the messenger in the language of the people to clarify for them.
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Hi brother Fahad,
Ok. Then how do you understand the concept of 'Jahannam'? It was originally used to refer to the valley of Hinnom which was used to burn garbage. -wikipedia.
The concept of living in hell in afterlife, supposedly developed after a while. The original meaning was thus perverted.
In which meaning does the quran use the word 'Jahannam'? If it is used in its secondary meaning then it's differs from the language of the earliest people using the term. The contemporary arabs of Muhammeds time, did not understand the word 'Jahannam' like the Hebrews some thousand years before them. Thus, we have good reason to believe that the two languages were different.
Hope I'm not speaking gibberish )
Nadeem
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Hello bro .
Ok. Then how do you understand the concept of 'Jahannam'? It was originally used to refer to the valley of Hinnom which was used to burn garbage. -wikipedia.
Why should I believe that the concept of 'jahannam' was originally used to refer to that valley?
The concept of living in hell in afterlife, supposedly developed after a while. The original meaning was thus perverted.
Again, why should I believe that?
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peace Fahad,
Again, why should I believe that?
umm...because it's fact?
You can't ignore outside knowledge and follow whatever you interpret in the quran.Anyway,
If you wanna tell us that we should view the Quran as a man-made book, restrict yourself to the "Quranic Divinity" section. The entire section has been created to debate that. So don't spew it all over the forum.
I'm not debating that. I just said if you look at the quran in a different manner, your interpretations of it can change, so how we percieve the Quran is important. And we need to make sure we are percieving it correctly. So if the quran was written by man (inspired by god) in reality, then we have to recognize that and accept that. I'm not arguing that that is the case. That's not what this thread is for, and I understand that.
Even some parrots can learn about 1000 thousand words and can make sense of them. You are human! Humans can be efficient in many languages. But you? You can't make sense of just 2000 words?! The parrots beat you to it!
You can't really do much with 2000 words. There is also something called grammar. And unless we have FULL knowledge of it, we won't be able to understand the minute details that are so important in a language.
If I know the words "I" and "bird." I can't really make a sentence out of it. Maybe that's good enough for a parrot, but it's not good in most cases for us, especially not when studying a book that is giving us a way of life.What if the whole book is based on a little bit. Do you understand it now?
Little bit of what? the quran uses the arabic language (spoken in arabia at the time). It doesn't follow any special rules. It doesn't restrict itself to a certain words, and more importantly, certain grammatical rules.
But again, I don't see why God would make me waste my time learning a whole different language when I certainly don't need to. The Quran contains the same message as many other spiritual philosophies, and those texts are not in arabic. I have read books that agree with the quran, but they are not in arabic.But we do not disregard the Quran. You are on the wrong forum.
I said "let's disregard the quran for a moment," because you are ignoring logic and facts based on your interpretation of the quran. Why don't you stop trying to understand the quran, and first try to find out what reality is. If your interpretation has no basis in reality, it won't help you much.
God's plan does involve arabic, as well as the language of the people. The book in arabic, and the messenger in the language of the people to clarify for them.
There are two places where I think your argument falls apart logically.
- The messengers and the message are not different. They are one and the same. The message comes from the messenger. The quran is in arabic because the messenger was in arabia. If he was in Europe, it would've been in Latin or German or Italian.
God didn't create a special language and then send special messengers to explain it to them. That seems quite ridiculous. And if that were true, you shouldn't be trying to understand the Quran since only a messenger has that ability. And so you have to follow the hadith because that's where you'll find the messenger's explanations. See how you are arguing for the sectarians here? - Doesn't the Quran say that it is a confirmation of the truths we already possess?
So, I'm no longer going to argue about whether the quran actually supports your position or not, since I know nothing about arabic. I'll let you and Samia solve that one. But hopefully you understand what I'm saying. You can't just believe anything because you believe it is divine. You need to look at what fits reality first.
T - The messengers and the message are not different. They are one and the same. The message comes from the messenger. The quran is in arabic because the messenger was in arabia. If he was in Europe, it would've been in Latin or German or Italian.
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Hi brother Fahad,
Good questioning bro. Perhaps it boils down to whom you take as an authority in history?
But nevertheless, would you agree that the languages were different IF the mutation of the word 'Jahannam' was proven?
And brother, can you provide us with say 4000 year old inscriptions with the same language as the quran? That would end this debate on the spot.
Nadeem
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Hi brother Fahad,
Good questioning bro. Perhaps it boils down to whom you take as an authority in history?
Yeah.
But nevertheless, would you agree that the languages were different IF the mutation of the word 'Jahannam' was proven?
No. I would say that people twisted their language with al-kitaab to confuse others (37.
And brother, can you provide us with say 4000 year old inscriptions with the same language as the quran? That would end this debate on the spot.
No. What should end the debate on the spot are verses of the Quran. But some people on this forum just don't accept the Quran as the authority.
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Again, why should I believe that?
peace Fahad,umm...because it's fact?
Like I told you before, you are on the wrong forum. The Quran is the fact.
You can't ignore outside knowledge and follow whatever you interpret in the quran.
Yes we can. If you have never heard the term "Quran alone" before on this forum, this is what it means.
If you wanna tell us that we should view the Quran as a man-made book, restrict yourself to the "Quranic Divinity" section. The entire section has been created to debate that. So don't spew it all over the forum.
Anyway,I'm not debating that. I just said if you look at the quran in a different manner, your interpretations of it can change, so how we percieve the Quran is important. And we need to make sure we are percieving it correctly.
If my understanding is not contradicting any parts of the Quran, then I am perceiving it correctly.
So if the quran was written by man (inspired by god) in reality, then we have to recognize that and accept that. I'm not arguing that that is the case. That's not what this thread is for, and I understand that.
Good.
Even some parrots can learn about 1000 thousand words and can make sense of them. You are human! Humans can be efficient in many languages. But you? You can't make sense of just 2000 words?! The parrots beat you to it!
You can't really do much with 2000 words. There is also something called grammar. And unless we have FULL knowledge of it, we won't be able to understand the minute details that are so important in a language.
If I know the words "I" and "bird." I can't really make a sentence out of it. Maybe that's good enough for a parrot, but it's not good in most cases for us, especially not when studying a book that is giving us a way of life.You don't know what you are talking about.
What if the whole book is based on a little bit. Do you understand it now?
Little bit of what? the quran uses the arabic language (spoken in arabia at the time). It doesn't follow any special rules. It doesn't restrict itself to a certain words, and more importantly, certain grammatical rules.
But again, I don't see why God would make me waste my time learning a whole different language when I certainly don't need to. The Quran contains the same message as many other spiritual philosophies, and those texts are not in arabic. I have read books that agree with the quran, but they are not in arabic.Good for you, if you can learn portions of the same message from other books as well. But the advantage with the Quran is that you can find everything in one place.
But we do not disregard the Quran. You are on the wrong forum.
I said "let's disregard the quran for a moment," because you are ignoring logic and facts based on your interpretation of the quran. Why don't you stop trying to understand the quran, and first try to find out what reality is. If your interpretation has no basis in reality, it won't help you much.
Let me tell you what your reality is
'that people living outside arabia cannot understand a book based on 2000 words. That people outside arabia can go to schools, colleges, universities, they can master subjects and many languages at once, but they cannot understand the Quran, a small,resembling and repeating book. God is unfair to the non-arabic people that He revealed an arabic book which contains double the size of a parrot's vocabulary!'
This your reality, your logic and your facts.
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'that people living outside arabia cannot understand a book based on 2000 words. That people outside arabia can go to schools, colleges, universities, they can master subjects and many languages at once, but they cannot understand the Quran, a small,resembling and repeating book. God is unfair to the non-arabic people that He revealed an arabic book which contains double the size of a parrot's vocabulary!'
Exactly. Thank you.
But just one thing I would fix in that. Not all people can afford to go to colleges and universities just to learn a foreign language. Not only that, not all colleges and universities teach arabic.
How many members, out of the 1500, actually have a good understanding of arabic? good enough that they don't have to rely on others to understand it? You are delusional if you think memorizing 2000 words will instantly make you a scholar in classical arabic. Sorry, but it's not that simple.Like I told you before, you are on the wrong forum. The Quran is the fact.
No, the Quran is not the fact. We are studying, examining, and criticizing the quran. We are not blindly believing everything we think it says. The Quran might be fact, but what you think it says doesn't have to be.
Also, you can't deny proven FACTS just because you think the quran says something else. Maybe something we havn't proven yet you can deny. But to ignore the truth just because it doesn't go along with your understanding is, well, ignorant.
If your interpretation goes along with facts and logic, then fine. But so far, you've been avoiding those questions.You don't know what you are talking about.
computer I post forum quran debate because like I enjoy it internet logic good smilie fact and.
This your reality, your logic and your facts.
Yes, that's my reality since I have verified it. What is your reality? that God created a special language, then created special people who understand that message, then spread the same book in seperate places in different times. If that is reality, where is your evidence? Why aren't there more arabic scriptures? Why didn't God just preserve the first one? If only messengers could understand the language, why are you even trying? Why can't God just give the people His message in their language? is that too hard for him? Why do we have the same message as in the quran in different books in different languages if God's message can only be explained in one pure language?
Why does the quran contain stories from other scriptures that were in different languages? why does the quran have words from other languages like jahannum and the messenger's names?
Unless you can answer those questions, your theory isn't even a theory. -
peace
No. What should end the debate on the spot are verses of the Quran. But some people on this forum just don't accept the Quran as the authority.
I'm not actually debating the Quran (not on this thread at least). I'm debating your understanding of it. The verses of the Quran are not a good starting point for learning or understanding something, because they are open to debate. What the verses say to you, they might not say to someone else.
Samia doesn't agree with your understanding of arabic.
And to make sure that we are following a good understanding of the verses is to make sure our understanding goes along with facts and logic. -
God's plan does involve arabic, as well as the language of the people. The book in arabic, and the messenger in the language of the people to clarify for them.
There are two places where I think your argument falls apart logically.
- The messengers and the message are not different. They are one and the same. The message comes from the messenger.
The rasool/messenger and the kitab/book are not the same.
The quran is in arabic because the messenger was in arabia. If he was in Europe, it would've been in Latin or German or Italian.
Why don't you address the verses in my original article and show me how the book would have been in any other language.
God didn't create a special language and then send special messengers to explain it to them. That seems quite ridiculous.
Now you are calling the Quran ridiculous. If you want to prove that you are only calling my understanding ridiculous, then address my original article point by point, and show me that my understanding is different than what the Quran is saying.
And if that were true, you shouldn't be trying to understand the Quran since only a messenger has that ability.
Where does the Quran say that? The messenger is sent to clarify for those who speak a different language. Not for those who can already understand it.
And so you have to follow the hadith because that's where you'll find the messenger's explanations...
LOL! THIS is what you've learned on this forum so far?! Parrots are better learners than phoenixes, no doubt, hehe. But phoenixes don't exist right? Maybe you don't exist either! Maybe you're a spam bot!
I think the forum moderators should take notice.
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'that people living outside arabia cannot understand a book based on 2000 words. That people outside arabia can go to schools, colleges, universities, they can master subjects and many languages at once, but they cannot understand the Quran, a small,resembling and repeating book. God is unfair to the non-arabic people that He revealed an arabic book which contains double the size of a parrot's vocabulary!'
Exactly. Thank you.
But just one thing I would fix in that. Not all people can afford to go to colleges and universities just to learn a foreign language. Not only that, not all colleges and universities teach arabic.One does not need colleges and universities to understand the Quranic Arabic. The time people spend daily to recite the Quran without understanding a word of it and other useless stuff, if they spend a small part of that time to understand the Quran, they can.
Unless they are parrots. Parrots haven't exceeded 1000 words yet, i think? But they will overtake you if you don't keep up with them. So watch your back.
How many members, out of the 1500, actually have a good understanding of arabic? good enough that they don't have to rely on others to understand it? You are delusional if you think memorizing 2000 words will instantly make you a scholar in classical arabic. Sorry, but it's not that simple.
You don't have to sit down and memorize every word. The Quran has been made easy to remember because it is a book that resembles and repeats itself. Like I said, it does not get easier than that.
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Like I told you before, you are on the wrong forum. The Quran is the fact.
No, the Quran is not the fact. We are studying, examining, and criticizing the quran. We are not blindly believing everything we think it says.
I have already done my examining. If you want to examine and criticize the Quran, restrict yourself to the 'Quran Divinity' section.
The Quran might be fact, but what you think it says doesn't have to be.
You have to show me why the Quran is not saying what I think it says.
Also, you can't deny proven FACTS just because you think the quran says something else. Maybe something we havn't proven yet you can deny. But to ignore the truth just because it doesn't go along with your understanding is, well, ignorant. If your interpretation goes along with facts and logic, then fine. But so far, you've been avoiding those questions.
I have already shown you your twisted logic and facts.
This your reality, your logic and your facts.
Yes, that's my reality since I have verified it. What is your reality? that God created a special language, then created special people who understand that message, then spread the same book in seperate places in different times.
No special people. Just normal people who will feel ashamed if the parrots beat them to it.
If that is reality, where is your evidence? Why aren't there more arabic scriptures?
The Quran is the evidence. If you do not accept the Quran is the evidence, that is your problem.
Why didn't God just preserve the first one?
He does as He wills.
If only messengers could understand the language, why are you even trying?
Who said that only messengers could understand the language?
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Why can't God just give the people His message in their language? is that too hard for him?
The message IS given in their own language through the messenger, I have told you before too. Can't you even understand simple english(not Simple english) too?!
Why do we have the same message as in the quran in different books in different languages if God's message can only be explained in one pure language?
God's message CAN be explained in different languages! That is what the messengers do!
I think the rumors are true. You ARE a spam bot.
Why does the quran contain stories from other scriptures that were in different languages? why does the quran have words from other languages like jahannum and the messenger's names?
Unless you can answer those questions, your theory isn't even a theory.
)It does not contain stories from other scriptures! Or are you saying that the Quran has been copied from other scriptures?!
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No. What should end the debate on the spot are verses of the Quran. But some people on this forum just don't accept the Quran as the authority.
peace
I'm not actually debating the Quran (not on this thread at least). I'm debating your understanding of it.Here is my understanding http//thequran.wordpress.com/2006/11/01/previous-revelations-were-also-in-arabic-language/ .
Debate the verses I have quoted in my article. Show me how my understanding of those verses is incorrect.
The verses of the Quran are not a good starting point for learning or understanding something, because they are open to debate. What the verses say to you, they might not say to someone else.
Tell me what these verses say to you http//thequran.wordpress.com/2006/11/01/previous-revelations-were-also-in-arabic-language/
Samia doesn't agree with your understanding of arabic.
I have replied to sister Samia. She has not replied yet about whether she disagrees or not.
And to make sure that we are following a good understanding of the verses is to make sure our understanding goes along with facts and logic.
Your "facts" and "logic"!
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peace Fahad.
No, I am not a spam bot. Although that would be an interesting profession (I still wouldn't be a "bot" though).
Anyway, I won't get into debating the verses too much, because as I said, my arabic knowledge is very limited.
I think that Al-kitab is the universe. It is the source of every kind of knowledge and scripture. The universe contains all of God's signs (ayahs). That's how I see it. All the scriptures, written in whatever language, have knowledge already contained in this universe.
I never really thought much about the Quran being in arabic. I'm not saying it's not in arabic. I think that it's logical that the quran is in arabic because it was written in an area where arabic was spoken. If it was in any other language, people wouldn't understand it.
I will wait for Samia (or someone else) to respond and give their thoughts before I reach an understanding.But the main argument I have against what you are saying is that your understanding doesn't go along well with logic. And niether do we have any evidence that there were previous scriptures in the arabic language.
It does not contain stories from other scriptures! Or are you saying that the Quran has been copied from other scriptures?!
Yes it does! it contains stories from ancient Egypt. The same stories are there in the Bible and Jewish scriptures. I'm not saying the Quran was copied, but I'm saying that these stories can be told in languages other than arabic.
The Quran is the evidence. If you do not accept the Quran is the evidence, that is your problem.
As I said, the Quran says different things to different people. Simple thinks your understanding is wrong. So to make sure we have the right understanding, we need to set it against established facts and truths to verify it.
He does as He wills.
This answer has been used to support a lot very ridiculous claims. So it's not good enough for me.
Who said that only messengers could understand the language?
That's what you're saying, right?
If an arabic book was "revealed" in Denmark, and a messenger was sent with it to explain the book, wouldn't he be the only one (or one of the very few, unless the quran's message is special) to understand that language?I have nothing against you, Fahad. And I applaud your efforts in trying to understand the Quran yourself. But I've found that what you are saying has a few logical fallacies that have to be resolved, and you need at least some archeological evidence to prove your point.
I will take a look at the verses and see if I find anything fishy.
peace. -
Peace Fahad
If your theory is correct any of the people who received previous revelation can not be called "People of the Book". Since the books were not in their language they would have to rely on the Messengers verbal instructions or written down accounts of messengers instructions like Hadeeth. And those people can not be accountable for changing the book they received since the book was in a language they did not understand.
Please clarify.
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Peace Fahad
If your theory is correct any of the people who received previous revelation can not be called "People of the Book".
Ahlal Kitab are not the people of "previous scriptures".
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7069.0
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=6787.0
Since the books were not in their language they would have to rely on the Messengers verbal instructions or written down accounts of messengers instructions like Hadeeth.
The clarifications/explanations that the messenger gives are from the Quran, not additional details.
And those people can not be accountable for changing the book they received since the book was in a language they did not understand.
Please clarify.
They did not change the book they received from Allah. Quran does not support this idea.
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peace Fahad.
No, I am not a spam bot. Although that would be an interesting profession (I still wouldn't be a "bot" though).Got you here! http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7115.msg107324#msg107324
Anyway, I won't get into debating the verses too much, because as I said, my arabic knowledge is very limited.
I have translated them. You can compare it with the translators you trust.
I think that Al-kitab is the universe. It is the source of every kind of knowledge and scripture. The universe contains all of God's signs (ayahs). That's how I see it. All the scriptures, written in whatever language, have knowledge already contained in this universe.
What al-kitab is , can be discussed here http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7069.0
I never really thought much about the Quran being in arabic.
What is there to think about the Quran being in arabic?
I'm not saying it's not in arabic. I think that it's logical that the quran is in arabic because it was written in an area where arabic was spoken. If it was in any other language, people wouldn't understand it.
I live in an area where people speak urdu. It does not mean that I cannot understand any other language.
I will wait for Samia (or someone else) to respond and give their thoughts before I reach an understanding.
Ok.
But the main argument I have against what you are saying is that your understanding doesn't go along well with logic.
Your "logic" does not go well with logic.
And niether do we have any evidence that there were previous scriptures in the arabic language.
My article is not about extra-Quranic evidence. My article is about what the Quran says about the topic. And whether you find external evidence or not, it will not change what the Quran is saying.
It does not contain stories from other scriptures! Or are you saying that the Quran has been copied from other scriptures?!
Yes it does! it contains stories from ancient Egypt. The same stories are there in the Bible and Jewish scriptures. I'm not saying the Quran was copied, but I'm saying that these stories can be told in languages other than arabic.
The stories in the bible and jewish scriptures have been copied from al-kitaab.
The Quran is the evidence. If you do not accept the Quran is the evidence, that is your problem.
As I said, the Quran says different things to different people. Simple thinks your understanding is wrong.
I don't think Simple thinks twice before posting. He is still insisting that the Quran is not in Arabic language! He deletes his post every few days. AND he relies on any ten men picked randomly from any street to decide his understanding for him.
So don't rely on him.
Who said that only messengers could understand the language?
If an arabic book was "revealed" in Denmark, and a messenger was sent with it to explain the book, wouldn't he be the only one (or one of the very few, unless the quran's message is special) to understand that language?
He does not have to be the only one. Can't people understand arabic in Denmark?
I have nothing against you, Fahad. And I applaud your efforts in trying to understand the Quran yourself. But I've found that what you are saying has a few logical fallacies that have to be resolved, and you need at least some archeological evidence to prove your point.
Archaeological evidence will not change what the Quran is saying. What the Quran says, is what my article is about.
I will take a look at the verses and see if I find anything fishy.
peace.I am waiting.
Peace.