More problems than solutions
-
abrar wrote
They shall carry the burdens of their burdens does not mean the sins of others but the responsibility of spreading fabricated information.and would that not be a massive burden? -)
as for those who simply follow falsehood, without spreading it, they will simply carry their own burden, without the added blame. and why should they not carry their own burden, when they did follow falsehood? -)
ofcourse, god is the best aware of what the heart holds, so...... -)
-
Peace and greetings to fellow truth seekers,
I carried out more extensive research on alleged abrogations caused by cosmetic/harmless variation of text within qurans circulating around the world. What i found is that people interested in harmless things more than they should be have mathematical doubts about quran and they pass it through digital testbed which only poses mathematical juglary and no further benefit at all. No breakthrough and certainly no new information. But further aggravation, furustrations and hopelessness that they inevitably achieve. Just visit those two links to satisfy your curiosity. According to first link different variations are in accordance with different recitation styles of prophet muhammad that has no effect on any information except cosmetically (saying of same thing in harmlessly different styles). And according to second link it is a proof that Quran is no more superior than bible.http//www.answers.com/topic/qur-an
http//www.answering-islam.org/Green/seven.htmBy carefully studying these two links you would realise that the devil's intention is to create discord and drive different interpretation of harmless variation in quranic text.
I acknowlege with my heart that the Almighty has successfully protected the Quran or the verse that muhammad is the last apostle of the God would prove to be absolutely false. So please do not fall into the trap of endless conjectures harmful to not only one's own soul but also for others. Just stick with hafs version and do not try to force mathematical formula of evaluation which only makes matters worse. Even if you stick with warsh there is no visible harm but do not mathematically conjecture about producing the best cream of every quran and producing a progressive quran placing the Almighty as endlessly using humans to correct the lost quran. What if christians start doing same with bible? resolve all diffrences and agree to final version? -
Dear Alen,
I do not doubt the intentions of those translating the quran but their method of approach is highlighting area full of doubts which most people have difficulty in understanding. I pose a question What significant breakthrough has progressive translation achieved by ten qurans other than raising doubts on quran's authenticity?
As for the code 19 just consider a simple question How can you measure the quality of your faith mathematically? If you have ever read about atheist scientists you would note that they mathematically try to prove the universe as probability and conclude that there is no god. Can we counterattack them mathematically? How do you exactly define infinity in mathematics? Can you ever determine the largest number even if you make a supercomputer count forever. Code 19 is just an endless persuit without any goal other than the science of somehow linking eveything that happens with 19. Just read 19.org edip uksel is busy in speculating about the knowledge of the Hour which according to quran only the God knows. He is also encouraging a cartoon competetion on muhammad which is childish understanding of the quran. I firmly believe that those intersted to find out how quran increases faith quality through nineteen have a disease in their hearts while believers ignore it because faith is much more than the lucky/unlucky 19. This 19 is having magic effect on people depriving them of the greatest faculty of mind the reasoning power.
We must try to come back to the real world which is much better than playing with 19. Please wake up from this dream. -
Peace Abrar
I agree with you that the difference between hafs and warsh make no significance in the meaning of the quran and is therefore a very minute detail that is not worth discussing in the context of whether the quran has been altered
It does indeed lead to doubt to those who don't understand that the difference between hafs and warsh has no bearing on the essence of quran which is it's message .. and not aya #s.
I don't think that it shouldn't be discussed... but the conclusion must indefinitely be that there really is no change to the quran. The quran is a message and its message is intact. The numbers are manmade anyway and they really add no significance to any verse or sura meanings.
However, I respectfully disagree with you on the whole 19 miracle. It does not measure my faith but it is another miracle found in the quran... just like the mentioning of the fetus or the difference in saltwater and fresh water found in the Amazon River... they don't measure my faith in any way. We have millions of wonders of God all around us and in the quran. There is nothing wrong in recognizing them and Praising the God as He should be Praised.
handshake -
peace all
u never know who is behind that website,faithfreedom.com,what u have to know its that,people who want to have more power than what they have,make propaganda to sell their product...ignorance.so they will have all kinds of resources to deceive the truth. these people follow an agenda,they are determine to not go away from it,they want all religions out and a one government system in the world,their plan its to exterminate 80% of people,and thats why we have so many wars,their process have started.do something,spread 911 truth,because thats the foundation to theunderstanding of everything and it will cancel all the madness that goes on.people need to stop being locked up in the minds and realize that something must be done!untill when we going to keep on debating?
peace handshake -
Dear Boost,
I was also once under the spell of 19 but only with the Almighty's help I woke up and came to my senses. Your example of fetus and bodies of salt/fresh water are observable physical meaningful phenomena. Observing some number patterns by mixing diffrent versions of quran by 19 multiples is just wastage of time with no meaningful observable physical result to prove that The Almighty has been guarding Quran by this method. The guarding of Quran is much more complex than 19 number puzzle game, which has termed last two ayats of chapter 9 as false insertions. You can expect just about anything from 19 pseudo mathematicians. Go to the link below to satisfy the curiosity of passing the concept of God through a mathematical testbed.http//www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa006&colID=13&articleID=000E350F-2F66-10CF-AD3D83414B7F0000
If we start doing such great intellectual mathematical tricks then where has our faith gone ?
Keep away from mixing God in mathematical puzzles because you would only confuse yourself further without knowledge that mathematics is just human faculty and it cannot comprehend God's vision in any way as justified by the God in Quran.I previously said in my first post I can assure you that anyone expert in classical arabic poetry and literature can jumble up and start composing his own style jumbled up version of the quran very easily just by substituting his intended words and then expertly exploiting quranic style. Go to the link below and find out.
http//www.islam-exposed.org/
It is an attempt by arab christians to produce their own quran in order to convert muslims to christianity.
The Almighty has been guarding Quran in much more complex ways than our human minds could ever comprehend. Code 19 mathematicians want to do anything that proves them right. For example they say the word "yawm" is mentioned 365 times in quran so it is a solar year and word "days" is mentioned 30 times so a lunar month. Go to the link below and you will have a better overview of the scientific concept of solar year.http//simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year
Year is 365 1/4 days long giving rise to a leap year. Is not the Almighty more knowledgable in digital accuracy than todays scientists. Without leap year concept we would be miscalculating one day every four years. These concepts are an accepted astronomical phenomena of today's world and anyone denying is not more knowledgable than astronomers.
Other things that 19 coders claim to be amazing are 1974 discovery referring 19 to 19 and 74 to chapter 74 of quran and they also claim that word "rashd" similar to the founder of code occurs 19 times in quran. These things seem to convince a person who is not well aware of scientific history. Go to the link below and you will find out that the calender itself is an arbitrary concept.http//simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorian_calendar
That is why i think in my opinion that The Almighty uses no dates describing historical events in Quran. Who could be better at keeping date records than the Almighty.
Do not take my following discovery seriously
I just figured out the meaning of seven skies mentioned in quran in just 5 minutes! If you study earth's atmospheric layers in meteorological science then you will get along with what i am saying. The first atmospheric layer from ground level of earth till about 10 km is called biosphere so it is the first sky layer, the second layer is called troposhere so it is the second sky layer, the third layer called is stratosphere so it is the third sky layer, the fourth layer is the ozone layer so it is the fourth sky layer, the fifth layer is the mesosphere so it is the fifth sky layer, the sixth layer is the thermosphere so it is the sixth sky layer and the rest of the dark space and beyond is the final seventh layer.
Chapter 67 ayat no.3 supports this seemingly amazing discovery "He created seven skies in layers. You do not see any imperfection in the creation by the Almighty. Keep looking; do you see any flaw? "
If we have such kind of approach towards quran then we can obviously generate miracles at a miraculous rate. I tell you it just took 5 minutes of my time! Now if i force myself under the spell of this type of thinking for the rest of my life then i might be called code 7er. if I will keep on bending every type of possible thinking under this approach just like code 19ers then i would be just a jugler like them.I advise all truth seekers to be vigilant about such miracles spinning out of control these days on the internet. sun
-
Peace all,
I agree with brother abrar's posts. The minor insignificant and harmless variations in the 10 different versions of al-qur'aan do not make ANY difference in the message whatsoever. Also the so called "code 19" is NOTHING BUT A FITNA/TRIAL for the rejecters and ONLY those who have a sickness in their hearts and the rejecters are the ones who pursue it. How can one deny The God's clear revelations when one is confronted by them ?
7431 And We have made the guardians of the Fire to be Angels; and We did not make their number except as a trial for those who have rejected, so that those who were given the Scripture would understand, and those who have faith would be increased in faith, and so that those who have been given the Scripture and the believers do not have doubt, and so that those who have a sickness in their hearts and the rejecters would Say "What did God mean with an example such as this?" It is such that God misguides whom He wishes, and He guides whom He wishes. And none know your Lord's soldiers except Him; and it is but a reminder for human beings.
The people of the scripture and the believers understand, have increase in faith, and do not have doubt, not because of the "code 19" but because of the "code 19" being a fitna/trial for the rejecters.
However, I respectfully disagree with you on the whole 19 miracle. It does not measure my faith but it is another miracle found in the quran... just like the mentioning of the fetus or the difference in saltwater and fresh water found in the Amazon River... they don't measure my faith in any way. We have millions of wonders of God all around us and in the quran. There is nothing wrong in recognizing them and Praising the God as He should be Praised.
Firstly the so called "code 19" is not a miracle but a handful of surahs in al-qur'aan having that property is nothing more than what can be expected within the probability of such an occurrence. Just by chance alone, one in 19 surahs of al-qur'aan would have that property and the actual occurrence is within that range, PROVIDED THE DATA SET IS CLEARLY DEFINED AND A CONSISTENT STANDARD METHODOLOGY IS USED. All one has to do is study mathematics and the laws of probability to be aware of this. No wonder this finding has not been published in a single reputable mathematical journal by a scientist or a mathematician.
What some people have done is that they do not clearly define the data set and do not consistently use standard methodology to conjure the so called code 19 in al-qur'aan. Using these tactics, ANY CODE BLAH can be found in ANY book.
For details, please see the following thought provoking article by Ayman on this topic
http//free-minds.org/articles/science/ayman19.htm
and the ensuing debate between him and Edip at the following link
http//free-minds.org/articles/science/debate19.htm
An excerpt from Ayman's article
"In the case of the so-called Code 19, the claim is made by its promoters that it is a "mathematical miracle". However, what is noticeable is that mathematicians who are the subject matter experts have not been flocking in droves to believe in and promote this "mathematical miracle". I personally, haven't heard of any mathematician or statistician who has declared his or her belief in this "mathematical" miracle. On the other hand, it is people who are not subject matter experts in mathematics who have been making such "miraculous mathematical" findings and promoting them. One would have expected the converse." (emphasis is mine)
Secondly, the 19 theory DOES NOT prevent addition or deletion of passages from al-qur'aan in multiples of 19. Think about it.
Thirdly, I don't have the guts to pursue it any further and try to figure out its meaning when The God Himself clearly tells us in 7431 that only those with sickness in their hearts and the rejecters would pursue what The God means by an example such as this. I don't need "code 19" to believe that al-qur'aan is from The God and that its message has been protected.
Peace
-
peace and greetings to all truth seekers,
I have noticed that we truth seekers have a unique 'might be" and "may be" attitude towards facts. This is why we have aquired such respectful knowledge and are always in the process of aquiring it. We do not approach facts blindly. This was the driving force of the renaissance period in the west. It allows rooms for the discussion of diverse ideas and views about facts with each other. A good scientist always approaches science in this manner.
But on the contrary too much 'might be' and 'may be' attitude proves to be extremely harmful not
only for one's ownself but for others as well. A person cannot walk on 10 paths at the same time. He could only correct his direction in the light of wisdom and knowledge that he/she aquires throughout his/her lifetime. If he/she keeps on changing paths then much of his/her effort of knowledge and wisdom may get wasted. One should be very transparent with his/her views, interpretations and judgements or else he/she would not only mislead himself/herself but also others. What if I start applying today's science on the competition between pharo's magicians and prophet moses and on the special abilities of prophet sulaiman mentioned in the quran? What if I term those verses as abrogations of mythology and start producing my own corrected quran? What if i start calling a speaking animal mentioned in quran as a metaphor of man made objects such as computer, radios, telephones and possibly a book?
In this way our unique attitude can be counterproductive and would be sarcastic towards our beliefs. I am strongly opposed to the approach of progressive muslims of blending 10 qurans for the sake of producing an ultimate quran. They not only stress too much on extremely harmless quranic textual variations of nil value but they mislead an average truth seeker totally out of context. Why stress on a matter that achieves no change in information and obviously no significant breakthrough. It frustrates truth seekers into the trap of 19 miracle which has similar approach as the progressive muslims. 19ers not only become a victim of their approach but they also trangress beyond limits into messenger claims, determination of judgement day, removal of the last two verses of chapter 9, and many other amazing claims.
We must be responsible, cautious, and vigilant towards our this unique attitude which is both the greatest weapon of truth and falsehood as well.