Research on the Arabic meanings of Jinn and the Quranic contexts
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Salam nerspi,
That depends how you translate the words... Shayaateen does not necessarily mean supernatural devilish beings, but rather those who are unruley and defiant, including men themselves - refer to the last three verses of chapter 114. And winds made subserviant does not mean David was given supernatural powers. Mankind has harnessed the power of wind and water in the last two centuries... foremost example is electric power. These verses mean that Soloman may have been the first king in this region to realize the use of science and reason as a means of progress in Southern Arabia (not unlike Kurosh/Cyrus, which makes for an interesting parallel.)
Now let us look at the translation
3835 Solomon prayed, "O My Lord! Absolve my imperfections and bestow upon me the gift an unprecedented (leadership of a) kingdom. Verily, You are the Giver of Gifts.?
3836 So We gave him the knowledge (which you, mankind, will eventually call science,) of making the wind serve him It took (his ships) where (he) intended.
3837 And (for building and driving his ships, We) made subservient to him (even) the ravenous/defiant (men) ? every kind of builder and navigator.
Regards,
Max -
maxq wrote
yes precisely, Djin refers not to just a part of our conscious,whether it (djinn) refers to a part of our conscious is what v are discussing! -)
but rather an attribute of being concealed...from that perspective, if there is extraterristrial life in the universe, whose existance is hidden from us, can also be considered "Djin".
v are trying to determine whether the quran rules out usage of the word "djinn" to denote a certain creation...the way it uses the word "insan" to denote another creation! -)
And they need not be made of energy...
?
nafs is not the same kind of attribute bro.
nafs...zanna...hawa...all of these are related to humans...
and have been used in a way that denotes that they belong to/are part of humans
...nafsaka
...hawahu
...zannakum
...bagyihimbut v find no such usage of the word "djinn"! -)
all there is, is an assumption that "djinn" in some verses means "part of our conscious"! -)
and yeah bro...what about the verification thing? -)
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nerspi wrote
what about
3837 And the devils, building and diving.
YUSUFALI As also the evil ones, (including) every kind of builder and diver,-
PICKTHAL And the unruly, every builder and diver (made We subservient),
SHAKIR And the shaitans, every builder and diver,it implies here that devils (evil ones or unruly or shaitans) worked for solomon, so are these things mentined humans who let their desperate side take over or beings made of actual fire?
can anyone please tell me who are the ones in control.
and where is our good side? if the desperate side refused to serve, who did serve? the ones in control, who are they?
are they our good side or are they beings made of actual light?the word "shaytan" is used for both humans and djinns...solomon's armies also consisted of djinns, and i feel these djinns were the shayatin from amongst them! -)
peace! -)
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maxq wrote
you're going on a tanjent ntgif u can provide anything from quran...feel free to do so! -)
Like I said... you're free to choose to believe in fairytales. Goodbye!
i will take that as ur inability to substantiate ur assumptions...
but i appreciate that u attempted to do so! -)
and yes...the verification part still remains...do u verify when u quote somebody...as per ur understanding of 1736? -)
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One simple quiz for anyone reading this thread
114004
YUSUFALI (Say I seek refuge) from the mischief of the Whisperer (of Evil), who withdraws (after his whisper),- ok so far
PICKTHAL (Say I seek refuge) from the evil of the sneaking whisperer, ok so far
SHAKIR (Say I seek refuge) from the evil of the whisperings of the slinking (Shaitan), ok so far114005
YUSUFALI (The same) who whispers into the hearts of Mankind,- ok so far
PICKTHAL Who whispereth in the hearts of mankind, ok so far
SHAKIR Who whispers into the hearts of men, ok so far114006
YUSUFALI Among Jinns and among men. (so jinns are from mankind??)
PICKTHAL Of the jinn and of mankind. (again!)
SHAKIR From among the jinn and the men. (so men/women can whisper into the hearts/chests of other men/women too.. ok!? Well who whispers in the hearts of jinns??)6100 Yet, they set up beside GOD idols from among the jinns, though He is the One who created them. They attribute to Him sons and daughters, without any knowledge. Be He glorified. He is the Most High, far above their claims. (Jesus Christ was a man whereas Uzza is nothing but Venus, a celestial object, and was venerated as such!! Refer to 4137, 184 and 5319 ... Were Jesus and Uzza created from fire??)
6128 The day will come when He summons all of them (and says) "O you jinns, you have claimed multitudes of humans." Their human companions will say, "Our Lord, we enjoyed each others' company until we wasted the life span You had set for us." He will say, "The Fire be your dwelling-place." They abide therein forever, in accordance with GOD's will. Your Lord is Wise, Omniscient. (So jinns will live in fire eh? They should feel right at home if they are made of fire. Is Allah trying to make jinns comfortable? And if fire is used symbolically for hell, then why do people take it literally for "jinns made from fire"?)
(On a sidenote, I asked this question from a mullah, and he said "The fire of hell is hotter!" with such surity as if he'd been there lolz)
What I believe are correct renditions
1144 "From the evil of the whisperings of the blinding desire.
1145 That whispers in peoples' conscious. (5016) (notice sudoor, not quloob, signifies active thought process)
1146 From the hidden (psyche that rationalizes the evil,) as well as (through temptations that come from) people."6100 Yet, there are people who falsely attribute Divinity to the unseen/intangible (products of their psyche Eg. Christ, Allat/Venus etc.). But He has created them (referring to the immortalized/venerated people or celestial objects), and people assign sons and daughters to Him out of sheer ignorance. Glorified, Exalted is He, infinitely Above what they ascribe to Him.
6128 The day will come when He gathers all of them and says, O you (gypsies, nomads, witch-doctors and shamans that spend their lives in wilderness/solitude and) who revealed themselves seldom (to city/village dwellers)! You have seduced many of the urban (with your superstitious beliefs and covert tactics). Their urbanite copmpanions/friends will say, Our Lord! We enjoyed each others company (the jinn in misleading and the ins in following, while both are mislead by their respective desires) until we wasted a life span You had given us." He will say, Fire is your home. Abide therein forever according to Allah's Design." Verily, (O Messenger) your Lord is Wise, Knowing. (He has designed His Laws in all Wisdom and Knowledge).
OR
6128 The day will come when He gathers all of them and says, O you who remained hidden (in your objectives to those you mislead)! You have seduced many among mankind (with your superstitious beliefs and covert tactics). Those among the people who supported them will say, Our Lord! We enjoyed each others company until we wasted a life span You had given us." He will say, Fire is your home. Abide therein forever according to Allah's Design." Verily, (O Messenger) your Lord is Wise, Knowing. (He has designed His Laws in all Wisdom and Knowledge).Unless jinns are not a separate species, but an attribute that makes that group different from the INS within the same species, and points to some inside force that is native to us, and to intangibles we falsely venerate, the jinn-being theory creates numerous contradictions in the Quran.
I am reiterating that we must be pragmatic! The Quran is not a fairytale!
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maxq wrote
I have nothing more to say to you ntg... you have to find your own way. Best of luck and God bless.that's ok...had somebody asked me to show instances of djinnakum or djinnahu....
...or that djinn is part of our conscious...
...i dont think i would have anything to say either! -)
but what does surprise me is that u asked me to refer to 1736...but u are not explaining to me how u apply it!
-)
best of luck! -)
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First try to ponder on my post below (I've quoted it here)... find me a Djin and PROVE ME WRONG!
One simple quiz for anyone reading this thread
114004
YUSUFALI (Say I seek refuge) from the mischief of the Whisperer (of Evil), who withdraws (after his whisper),- ok so far
PICKTHAL (Say I seek refuge) from the evil of the sneaking whisperer, ok so far
SHAKIR (Say I seek refuge) from the evil of the whisperings of the slinking (Shaitan), ok so far114005
YUSUFALI (The same) who whispers into the hearts of Mankind,- ok so far
PICKTHAL Who whispereth in the hearts of mankind, ok so far
SHAKIR Who whispers into the hearts of men, ok so far114006
YUSUFALI Among Jinns and among men. (so jinns are from mankind??)
PICKTHAL Of the jinn and of mankind. (again!)
SHAKIR From among the jinn and the men. (so men/women can whisper into the hearts/chests of other men/women too.. ok!? Well who whispers in the hearts of jinns??)6100 Yet, they set up beside GOD idols from among the jinns, though He is the One who created them. They attribute to Him sons and daughters, without any knowledge. Be He glorified. He is the Most High, far above their claims. (Jesus Christ was a man whereas Uzza is nothing but Venus, a celestial object, and was venerated as such!! Refer to 4137, 184 and 5319 ... Were Jesus and Uzza created from fire??)
6128 The day will come when He summons all of them (and says) "O you jinns, you have claimed multitudes of humans." Their human companions will say, "Our Lord, we enjoyed each others' company until we wasted the life span You had set for us." He will say, "The Fire be your dwelling-place." They abide therein forever, in accordance with GOD's will. Your Lord is Wise, Omniscient. (So jinns will live in fire eh? They should feel right at home if they are made of fire. Is Allah trying to make jinns comfortable? And if fire is used symbolically for hell, then why do people take it literally for "jinns made from fire"?)
(On a sidenote, I asked this question from a mullah, and he said "The fire of hell is hotter!" with such surity as if he'd been there lolz)
What I believe are correct renditions
1144 "From the evil of the whisperings of the blinding desire.
1145 That whispers in peoples' conscious. (5016) (notice sudoor, not quloob, signifies active thought process)
1146 From the hidden (psyche that rationalizes the evil,) as well as (through temptations that come from) people."6100 Yet, there are people who falsely attribute Divinity to the unseen/intangible (products of their psyche Eg. Christ, Allat/Venus etc.). But He has created them (referring to the immortalized/venerated people or celestial objects), and people assign sons and daughters to Him out of sheer ignorance. Glorified, Exalted is He, infinitely Above what they ascribe to Him.
6128 The day will come when He gathers all of them and says, ?O you (gypsies, nomads, witch-doctors and shamans that spend their lives in wilderness/solitude and) who revealed themselves seldom (to city/village dwellers)! You have seduced many of the urban (with your superstitious beliefs and covert tactics).? Their urbanite copmpanions/friends will say, ?Our Lord! We enjoyed each other?s company (the jinn in misleading and the ins in following, while both are mislead by their respective desires) until we wasted a life span You had given us." He will say, ?Fire is your home. Abide therein forever according to Allah's Design." Verily, (O Messenger) your Lord is Wise, Knowing. (He has designed His Laws in all Wisdom and Knowledge).
OR
6128 The day will come when He gathers all of them and says, ?O you who remained hidden (in your objectives to those you mislead)! You have seduced many among mankind (with your superstitious beliefs and covert tactics).? Those among the people who supported them will say, ?Our Lord! We enjoyed each other?s company until we wasted a life span You had given us." He will say, ?Fire is your home. Abide therein forever according to Allah's Design." Verily, (O Messenger) your Lord is Wise, Knowing. (He has designed His Laws in all Wisdom and Knowledge).Unless jinns are not a separate species, but an attribute that makes that group different from the INS within the same species, and points to some inside force that is native to us, and to intangibles we falsely venerate, the jinn-being theory creates numerous contradictions in the Quran.
I am reiterating that we must be pragmatic! The Quran is not a fairytale!
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I apologize for sounding rude ntg. I kind of realized after I posted. Sorry about that
What I am saying is that the existance of Djin cannot be verified, so until someone shows me a real living kicking Djin, I will not believe they exist as such. Moreso, I stated examples of verses where Djin taken in traditional sense would create contradictions in the Quran. Putting 2 and 2 together, and considering the context of the verses, I have no choice but to conclude that Djin does not refer to a species, but to the attribute of being hidden.
Once again, I apologize for sounding rude. I should not have done that.
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maxq wrote
I apologize for sounding rude ntg. I kind of realized after I posted. Sorry about thatWhat I am saying is that the existance of Djin cannot be verified, so until someone shows me a real living kicking Djin, I will not believe they exist as such. Moreso, I stated examples of verses where Djin taken in traditional sense would create contradictions in the Quran. Putting 2 and 2 together, and considering the context of the verses, I have no choice but to conclude that Djin does not refer to a species, but to the attribute of being hidden.
Once again, I apologize for sounding rude. I should not have done that.
u edited ur post before i could get a chance to read it grr ...
...so i dunno what it is that u should not have done! -((
but in anycase...whatever it was...doesnt matter now! handshake
anyway...i dont agree with any of the following interpretations
...that they are nomads/travellers/hermits
...that they are leaders
...that they are figurative for negative thoughts/emotions
...that they are figurative for fantasies
...that they are the rebellious part within humanshandshake
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Salam,
I think it may be helpful to point out that the word jinn itself is translated differently into english through out the Quran even if the word is spelled exactly the same.
For instance in 2370 jannah (jeem nun ta) is most commonly translated as "madness" or "crazy" by translaters
2370 (free-minds)
Or do they say that there is a madness in him? No, he has come to them with the truth, but most of them are hateful of the truth.but in most other places including 1791 and 235, the word (jeem-nun-ta) is translated as "garden" or paradise
1791 (free-minds)
Or that you have a garden of palm trees and grapes, and you cause gushing rivers to burst through it."235 (free-minds)
And We said "O Adam, reside you and your mate in the paradise, and eat from it bountifully as you both wish, and do not approach this tree, else you will be of those who did wrong."In 676 jinn (jeem nun) is translated most commonly as "covered"
676 (free-minds)
When the night covered him, he saw a planet, and he said "This is my Lord." But when it disappeared he said "I do not like those that disappear."but in most other places jinn (jeem-nun) is left un-translated as "jinn" (example 5533)
5533 (free-minds)
O tribes of Jinn and humans, if you can penetrate the outer limits of the heavens and the Earth, then go ahead and penetrate. You will not penetrate without authorityboth Jannah (jeem-nun-ta) and Jinn (jeem-nun) share the same root. And sometimes translaters translate the word differently even when the word uses the same exact letters.
The word Jinn in classical arabic is defined as to cover, hide, conceal (in Hans Wehr and Lane's Lexicon)
Another problem here is that we are only re-translating "jinn" and not the rest of the verse.
For instance, when we look at 5533 above we see the word anass (alif nun seen). Anass in classical arabic is defined as to be companionable, sociable or nice and most translators translate it into "mankind" or some variation thereof.
IF we try to translate only the word "jinn" and not re-translate "anass" properly we are left with a verse that does not make much sense. We also have to re-translate "company" in arabic maashara (meem-ayn-sheen-ra), ashara (ayn-sheen-ra) in classical arabic means to collect one tenth of annual produce or earnings. Maashara might be "one tenth of the annual produce"...etc..etc..Then in some cases even when we do re-translate the entire verse we have to re-translate a verse or two before it or after it to really understand what is being said.
so we will really have to re-translate the entire verses to get a good picture of what is being said.
Once the entire verse or verses are re-translated using the proper arabic definitions, it really does make sense.
I cannot stress this issue enough. Too often we make the mistake of only re-translating one word in a verse.
What we really really need to do is re-translate the entire Quran using classical arabic and only then will we truly come to understand what we are being told.
To sum it up, I support Arnold's claim that the word "jinn" does not refer to another species.
I think that if anyone looks at this scientifically, and looks at the evidence and the facts, one just might come closer to accepting the logical conclusion that jinn cannot possibly be another species.Maybe looking at the arabic dictionaries and looking at the disreprencies in the translations by utilizing openburhan.com might help anyone who wants to debate this.
I mean, its okay if one doesn't agree but they should know what they don't agree with.
So far, in this thread, I have not seen an educated argument that would make one conclude that a "jinn" is a seprate being or species.
Which leads me to think that unfortunately some people are more interested in arguing than learning.
Salam,
Arnab -
Salam Arnab,
Excellent reply! I might add that Falamma Janna 'Alaih-il Lail may be taken figuratively. It can either translate to "When all that (around him) was covered in darkness" or "When his (understanding of the marvels of the heavens and earth) was veiled by ignorance". Notice that marvels of heavens and earth have been mentioned in the preceding verse. Let's try to translate it this way thenAnd it is such that We showed Abraham the kingdom of heavens and Earth, so that he would be of those who have certainty.
(And this is how We brought him to the light) When his (understanding of the universe) was veiled/covered by the darkness (of ignorance), he saw a planet, and said "This is my Lord." But when it disappeared he said "I do not adore those that fade away."
An interesting word that comes from the root is which means "ignorant", or he/she who hides from knowledge/truth... another is which means he or she for whom reality is hidden... go figure )
Regards,
maxq -
maxq wrote
You have to start somewhere ntg...you have to put pieces together and see what makes sense.u urself brought up 1736...so wonder why u are having so much trouble answering with a yes/no! -)
..do u verify what u quote?
..or do u blindly believe what they say? -)
By your token, the whole world is an illusion and that is something N2Is believe in.
dont ascribe words to me...u have failed to back up ur assumptions...
...the least u can do is not resort to what u have done for the length of this post! -)
again...do u verify when u quote somebody?
...or do u blindly quote them...against ur own advice regarding 1736! -)