Research on the Arabic meanings of Jinn and the Quranic contexts

[maxq]

Like I said... you're free to choose to believe in fairytales. Goodbye!

[thegod]

maxq wrote
you're going on a tanjent ntg

if u can provide anything from quran...feel free to do so! -)

Like I said... you're free to choose to believe in fairytales. Goodbye!

i will take that as ur inability to substantiate ur assumptions...

but i appreciate that u attempted to do so! -)

and yes...the verification part still remains...do u verify when u quote somebody...as per ur understanding of 1736? -)

[maxq]

One simple quiz for anyone reading this thread

114004
YUSUFALI (Say I seek refuge) from the mischief of the Whisperer (of Evil), who withdraws (after his whisper),- ok so far
PICKTHAL (Say I seek refuge) from the evil of the sneaking whisperer, ok so far
SHAKIR (Say I seek refuge) from the evil of the whisperings of the slinking (Shaitan), ok so far

114005
YUSUFALI (The same) who whispers into the hearts of Mankind,- ok so far
PICKTHAL Who whispereth in the hearts of mankind, ok so far
SHAKIR Who whispers into the hearts of men, ok so far

114006
YUSUFALI Among Jinns and among men. (so jinns are from mankind??)
PICKTHAL Of the jinn and of mankind. (again!)
SHAKIR From among the jinn and the men. (so men/women can whisper into the hearts/chests of other men/women too.. ok!? Well who whispers in the hearts of jinns??)

6100 Yet, they set up beside GOD idols from among the jinns, though He is the One who created them. They attribute to Him sons and daughters, without any knowledge. Be He glorified. He is the Most High, far above their claims. (Jesus Christ was a man whereas Uzza is nothing but Venus, a celestial object, and was venerated as such!! Refer to 4137, 184 and 5319 ... Were Jesus and Uzza created from fire??)

6128 The day will come when He summons all of them (and says) "O you jinns, you have claimed multitudes of humans." Their human companions will say, "Our Lord, we enjoyed each others' company until we wasted the life span You had set for us." He will say, "The Fire be your dwelling-place." They abide therein forever, in accordance with GOD's will. Your Lord is Wise, Omniscient. (So jinns will live in fire eh? They should feel right at home if they are made of fire. Is Allah trying to make jinns comfortable? And if fire is used symbolically for hell, then why do people take it literally for "jinns made from fire"?)

(On a sidenote, I asked this question from a mullah, and he said "The fire of hell is hotter!" with such surity as if he'd been there lolz)

What I believe are correct renditions

1144 "From the evil of the whisperings of the blinding desire.
1145 That whispers in peoples' conscious. (5016) (notice sudoor, not quloob, signifies active thought process)
1146 From the hidden (psyche that rationalizes the evil,) as well as (through temptations that come from) people."

6100 Yet, there are people who falsely attribute Divinity to the unseen/intangible (products of their psyche Eg. Christ, Allat/Venus etc.). But He has created them (referring to the immortalized/venerated people or celestial objects), and people assign sons and daughters to Him out of sheer ignorance. Glorified, Exalted is He, infinitely Above what they ascribe to Him.

6128 The day will come when He gathers all of them and says, O you (gypsies, nomads, witch-doctors and shamans that spend their lives in wilderness/solitude and) who revealed themselves seldom (to city/village dwellers)! You have seduced many of the urban (with your superstitious beliefs and covert tactics). Their urbanite copmpanions/friends will say, Our Lord! We enjoyed each others company (the jinn in misleading and the ins in following, while both are mislead by their respective desires) until we wasted a life span You had given us." He will say, Fire is your home. Abide therein forever according to Allah's Design." Verily, (O Messenger) your Lord is Wise, Knowing. (He has designed His Laws in all Wisdom and Knowledge).
OR
6128 The day will come when He gathers all of them and says, O you who remained hidden (in your objectives to those you mislead)! You have seduced many among mankind (with your superstitious beliefs and covert tactics). Those among the people who supported them will say, Our Lord! We enjoyed each others company until we wasted a life span You had given us." He will say, Fire is your home. Abide therein forever according to Allah's Design." Verily, (O Messenger) your Lord is Wise, Knowing. (He has designed His Laws in all Wisdom and Knowledge).

Unless jinns are not a separate species, but an attribute that makes that group different from the INS within the same species, and points to some inside force that is native to us, and to intangibles we falsely venerate, the jinn-being theory creates numerous contradictions in the Quran.

I am reiterating that we must be pragmatic! The Quran is not a fairytale!

[maxq]

I have nothing more to say to you ntg... you have to find your own way. Best of luck and God bless.

[thegod]

maxq wrote
I have nothing more to say to you ntg... you have to find your own way. Best of luck and God bless.

that's ok...had somebody asked me to show instances of djinnakum or djinnahu....

...or that djinn is part of our conscious...

...i dont think i would have anything to say either! -)

but what does surprise me is that u asked me to refer to 1736...but u are not explaining to me how u apply it!

-)

best of luck! -)

[maxq]

First try to ponder on my post below (I've quoted it here)... find me a Djin and PROVE ME WRONG!

One simple quiz for anyone reading this thread

114004
YUSUFALI (Say I seek refuge) from the mischief of the Whisperer (of Evil), who withdraws (after his whisper),- ok so far
PICKTHAL (Say I seek refuge) from the evil of the sneaking whisperer, ok so far
SHAKIR (Say I seek refuge) from the evil of the whisperings of the slinking (Shaitan), ok so far

114005
YUSUFALI (The same) who whispers into the hearts of Mankind,- ok so far
PICKTHAL Who whispereth in the hearts of mankind, ok so far
SHAKIR Who whispers into the hearts of men, ok so far

114006
YUSUFALI Among Jinns and among men. (so jinns are from mankind??)
PICKTHAL Of the jinn and of mankind. (again!)
SHAKIR From among the jinn and the men. (so men/women can whisper into the hearts/chests of other men/women too.. ok!? Well who whispers in the hearts of jinns??)

6100 Yet, they set up beside GOD idols from among the jinns, though He is the One who created them. They attribute to Him sons and daughters, without any knowledge. Be He glorified. He is the Most High, far above their claims. (Jesus Christ was a man whereas Uzza is nothing but Venus, a celestial object, and was venerated as such!! Refer to 4137, 184 and 5319 ... Were Jesus and Uzza created from fire??)

6128 The day will come when He summons all of them (and says) "O you jinns, you have claimed multitudes of humans." Their human companions will say, "Our Lord, we enjoyed each others' company until we wasted the life span You had set for us." He will say, "The Fire be your dwelling-place." They abide therein forever, in accordance with GOD's will. Your Lord is Wise, Omniscient. (So jinns will live in fire eh? They should feel right at home if they are made of fire. Is Allah trying to make jinns comfortable? And if fire is used symbolically for hell, then why do people take it literally for "jinns made from fire"?)

(On a sidenote, I asked this question from a mullah, and he said "The fire of hell is hotter!" with such surity as if he'd been there lolz)

What I believe are correct renditions

1144 "From the evil of the whisperings of the blinding desire.
1145 That whispers in peoples' conscious. (5016) (notice sudoor, not quloob, signifies active thought process)
1146 From the hidden (psyche that rationalizes the evil,) as well as (through temptations that come from) people."

6100 Yet, there are people who falsely attribute Divinity to the unseen/intangible (products of their psyche Eg. Christ, Allat/Venus etc.). But He has created them (referring to the immortalized/venerated people or celestial objects), and people assign sons and daughters to Him out of sheer ignorance. Glorified, Exalted is He, infinitely Above what they ascribe to Him.

6128 The day will come when He gathers all of them and says, ?O you (gypsies, nomads, witch-doctors and shamans that spend their lives in wilderness/solitude and) who revealed themselves seldom (to city/village dwellers)! You have seduced many of the urban (with your superstitious beliefs and covert tactics).? Their urbanite copmpanions/friends will say, ?Our Lord! We enjoyed each other?s company (the jinn in misleading and the ins in following, while both are mislead by their respective desires) until we wasted a life span You had given us." He will say, ?Fire is your home. Abide therein forever according to Allah's Design." Verily, (O Messenger) your Lord is Wise, Knowing. (He has designed His Laws in all Wisdom and Knowledge).
OR
6128 The day will come when He gathers all of them and says, ?O you who remained hidden (in your objectives to those you mislead)! You have seduced many among mankind (with your superstitious beliefs and covert tactics).? Those among the people who supported them will say, ?Our Lord! We enjoyed each other?s company until we wasted a life span You had given us." He will say, ?Fire is your home. Abide therein forever according to Allah's Design." Verily, (O Messenger) your Lord is Wise, Knowing. (He has designed His Laws in all Wisdom and Knowledge).

Unless jinns are not a separate species, but an attribute that makes that group different from the INS within the same species, and points to some inside force that is native to us, and to intangibles we falsely venerate, the jinn-being theory creates numerous contradictions in the Quran.

I am reiterating that we must be pragmatic! The Quran is not a fairytale!

[thegod]

maxq wrote
First try to ponder on my post below (I've quoted it here)...

is that post ur response to my asking u to provide proof for ur claim? -)

... find me a Djin and PROVE ME WRONG!

?

lolz bro!

and what about the verification part? -)

[maxq]

I apologize for sounding rude ntg. I kind of realized after I posted. Sorry about that

What I am saying is that the existance of Djin cannot be verified, so until someone shows me a real living kicking Djin, I will not believe they exist as such. Moreso, I stated examples of verses where Djin taken in traditional sense would create contradictions in the Quran. Putting 2 and 2 together, and considering the context of the verses, I have no choice but to conclude that Djin does not refer to a species, but to the attribute of being hidden.

Once again, I apologize for sounding rude. I should not have done that.

[thegod]

maxq wrote
I apologize for sounding rude ntg. I kind of realized after I posted. Sorry about that

What I am saying is that the existance of Djin cannot be verified, so until someone shows me a real living kicking Djin, I will not believe they exist as such. Moreso, I stated examples of verses where Djin taken in traditional sense would create contradictions in the Quran. Putting 2 and 2 together, and considering the context of the verses, I have no choice but to conclude that Djin does not refer to a species, but to the attribute of being hidden.

Once again, I apologize for sounding rude. I should not have done that.

u edited ur post before i could get a chance to read it grr ...

...so i dunno what it is that u should not have done! -((

but in anycase...whatever it was...doesnt matter now! handshake

anyway...i dont agree with any of the following interpretations

...that they are nomads/travellers/hermits
...that they are leaders
...that they are figurative for negative thoughts/emotions
...that they are figurative for fantasies
...that they are the rebellious part within humans

handshake

[unknownuser]

Salam,

I think it may be helpful to point out that the word jinn itself is translated differently into english through out the Quran even if the word is spelled exactly the same.

For instance in 2370 jannah (jeem nun ta) is most commonly translated as "madness" or "crazy" by translaters

2370 (free-minds)
Or do they say that there is a madness in him? No, he has come to them with the truth, but most of them are hateful of the truth.

but in most other places including 1791 and 235, the word (jeem-nun-ta) is translated as "garden" or paradise

1791 (free-minds)
Or that you have a garden of palm trees and grapes, and you cause gushing rivers to burst through it."

235 (free-minds)
And We said "O Adam, reside you and your mate in the paradise, and eat from it bountifully as you both wish, and do not approach this tree, else you will be of those who did wrong."

In 676 jinn (jeem nun) is translated most commonly as "covered"

676 (free-minds)
When the night covered him, he saw a planet, and he said "This is my Lord." But when it disappeared he said "I do not like those that disappear."

but in most other places jinn (jeem-nun) is left un-translated as "jinn" (example 5533)

5533 (free-minds)
O tribes of Jinn and humans, if you can penetrate the outer limits of the heavens and the Earth, then go ahead and penetrate. You will not penetrate without authority

both Jannah (jeem-nun-ta) and Jinn (jeem-nun) share the same root. And sometimes translaters translate the word differently even when the word uses the same exact letters.

The word Jinn in classical arabic is defined as to cover, hide, conceal (in Hans Wehr and Lane's Lexicon)

Another problem here is that we are only re-translating "jinn" and not the rest of the verse.

For instance, when we look at 5533 above we see the word anass (alif nun seen). Anass in classical arabic is defined as to be companionable, sociable or nice and most translators translate it into "mankind" or some variation thereof.
IF we try to translate only the word "jinn" and not re-translate "anass" properly we are left with a verse that does not make much sense. We also have to re-translate "company" in arabic maashara (meem-ayn-sheen-ra), ashara (ayn-sheen-ra) in classical arabic means to collect one tenth of annual produce or earnings. Maashara might be "one tenth of the annual produce"...etc..etc..

Then in some cases even when we do re-translate the entire verse we have to re-translate a verse or two before it or after it to really understand what is being said.

so we will really have to re-translate the entire verses to get a good picture of what is being said.

Once the entire verse or verses are re-translated using the proper arabic definitions, it really does make sense.

I cannot stress this issue enough. Too often we make the mistake of only re-translating one word in a verse.

What we really really need to do is re-translate the entire Quran using classical arabic and only then will we truly come to understand what we are being told.

To sum it up, I support Arnold's claim that the word "jinn" does not refer to another species.
I think that if anyone looks at this scientifically, and looks at the evidence and the facts, one just might come closer to accepting the logical conclusion that jinn cannot possibly be another species.

Maybe looking at the arabic dictionaries and looking at the disreprencies in the translations by utilizing openburhan.com might help anyone who wants to debate this.

I mean, its okay if one doesn't agree but they should know what they don't agree with.

So far, in this thread, I have not seen an educated argument that would make one conclude that a "jinn" is a seprate being or species.

Which leads me to think that unfortunately some people are more interested in arguing than learning.

Salam,
Arnab

[thegod]

arnab wrote
Which leads me to think that unfortunately some people are more interested in arguing than learning.

reading ur post...i couldnt agree more with u! -)

salam! -)

[maxq]

Salam Arnab,
Excellent reply! I might add that Falamma Janna 'Alaih-il Lail may be taken figuratively. It can either translate to "When all that (around him) was covered in darkness" or "When his (understanding of the marvels of the heavens and earth) was veiled by ignorance". Notice that marvels of heavens and earth have been mentioned in the preceding verse. Let's try to translate it this way then

And it is such that We showed Abraham the kingdom of heavens and Earth, so that he would be of those who have certainty.

(And this is how We brought him to the light) When his (understanding of the universe) was veiled/covered by the darkness (of ignorance), he saw a planet, and said "This is my Lord." But when it disappeared he said "I do not adore those that fade away."

An interesting word that comes from the root is which means "ignorant", or he/she who hides from knowledge/truth... another is which means he or she for whom reality is hidden... go figure )

Regards,
maxq

[thegod]

u still have not replied bro...when u quote a historian or a lexicologist...do u verify the information s/he provides?

...somehow u always seem to miss this question! -)

[maxq]

You have to start somewhere ntg... you have to put pieces together and see what makes sense (and that is what Abraham did too). By your token, the whole world is an illusion and that is something N2Is believe in.

[thegod]

maxq wrote
You have to start somewhere ntg...you have to put pieces together and see what makes sense.

u urself brought up 1736...so wonder why u are having so much trouble answering with a yes/no! -)

..do u verify what u quote?

..or do u blindly believe what they say? -)

By your token, the whole world is an illusion and that is something N2Is believe in.

dont ascribe words to me...u have failed to back up ur assumptions...

...the least u can do is not resort to what u have done for the length of this post! -)

again...do u verify when u quote somebody?

...or do u blindly quote them...against ur own advice regarding 1736! -)

[thegod]

abraham did not persist in his assumptions... grin

let us know what u edit...helps when replying! -)

[maxq]

ntg, perhaps I was not clear, sorry,

u urself brought up 1736...so wonder why u are having so much trouble answering with a yes/no! -)

..do u verify what u quote?

..or do u blindly believe what they say? -)
I verify by putting 2 and 2 together (please do not take this in the literal sense lol). This is exactly what Abraham did too according to 676-80, and that is what, according to 1736, God asks us to do at least.

dont ascribe words to me...u have failed to back up ur assumptions...

...the least u can do is not resort to what u have done for the length of this post! -)
I have not, or at least I think I have not.

again...do u verify when u quote somebody?

...or do u blindly quote them...against ur own advice regarding 1736! -)
I already answered this question.

And speaking of questions, what's with the "#" sign?

[maxq]

abraham did not persist in his assumptions... grin

let us know what u edit...helps when replying! -)

??? please read what you just wrote... it sounds strange... I can edit my reply if I like and do not have to let you know. I am not editing your posts buddy. If you have problems with me editing my posts, please talk to the administrator.

[thegod]

maxq wrote
ntg, perhaps I was not clear, sorry,

that's okay...there's always room to clarify! -)

I verify by putting 2 and 2 together (please do not take this in the literal sense lol). This is exactly what Abraham did too according to 676-80,

abraham saw with his own eyes and then corrected himself...

...he did not read what lexicologists and historians say and based his hypotheses on them! -)

...do u agree with that?

and that is what, according to 1736, God asks us to do at least.

...as part of ur research i have seen u quote historians...

so do u verify the information they provide? (the way abraham did...seeing with his own eyes)...

..or do u just quote and believe them? -)

I have not, or at least I think I have not.

cool ...i dint get these words

By your token, the whole world is an illusion and that is something N2Is believe in.

my token? do clarify! -)

If you choose to believe in folklore, that's your choice.

what are my beliefs? -)

I already answered this question.

cool! -)

And speaking of questions, what's with the "#" sign?

number sign! -)

[thegod]

maxq wrote
please read what you just wrote... it sounds strange... I can edit my reply if I like and do not have to let you know. I am not editing your posts buddy. If you have problems with me editing my posts, please talk to the administrator.

ofcourse...u can...but ur edited post gave the impression that u go abraham's way...

...while ur un-edited post did not! -)

it can be a bit misleading to the reader if somebody replies...and the poster edits his/her post later! -)

still...if u are more comfortabe thatway..cool! -)