Research on the Arabic meanings of Jinn and the Quranic contexts

[maxq]

I apologize for sounding rude ntg. I kind of realized after I posted. Sorry about that

What I am saying is that the existance of Djin cannot be verified, so until someone shows me a real living kicking Djin, I will not believe they exist as such. Moreso, I stated examples of verses where Djin taken in traditional sense would create contradictions in the Quran. Putting 2 and 2 together, and considering the context of the verses, I have no choice but to conclude that Djin does not refer to a species, but to the attribute of being hidden.

Once again, I apologize for sounding rude. I should not have done that.

[thegod]

maxq wrote
I apologize for sounding rude ntg. I kind of realized after I posted. Sorry about that

What I am saying is that the existance of Djin cannot be verified, so until someone shows me a real living kicking Djin, I will not believe they exist as such. Moreso, I stated examples of verses where Djin taken in traditional sense would create contradictions in the Quran. Putting 2 and 2 together, and considering the context of the verses, I have no choice but to conclude that Djin does not refer to a species, but to the attribute of being hidden.

Once again, I apologize for sounding rude. I should not have done that.

u edited ur post before i could get a chance to read it grr ...

...so i dunno what it is that u should not have done! -((

but in anycase...whatever it was...doesnt matter now! handshake

anyway...i dont agree with any of the following interpretations

...that they are nomads/travellers/hermits
...that they are leaders
...that they are figurative for negative thoughts/emotions
...that they are figurative for fantasies
...that they are the rebellious part within humans

handshake

[unknownuser]

Salam,

I think it may be helpful to point out that the word jinn itself is translated differently into english through out the Quran even if the word is spelled exactly the same.

For instance in 2370 jannah (jeem nun ta) is most commonly translated as "madness" or "crazy" by translaters

2370 (free-minds)
Or do they say that there is a madness in him? No, he has come to them with the truth, but most of them are hateful of the truth.

but in most other places including 1791 and 235, the word (jeem-nun-ta) is translated as "garden" or paradise

1791 (free-minds)
Or that you have a garden of palm trees and grapes, and you cause gushing rivers to burst through it."

235 (free-minds)
And We said "O Adam, reside you and your mate in the paradise, and eat from it bountifully as you both wish, and do not approach this tree, else you will be of those who did wrong."

In 676 jinn (jeem nun) is translated most commonly as "covered"

676 (free-minds)
When the night covered him, he saw a planet, and he said "This is my Lord." But when it disappeared he said "I do not like those that disappear."

but in most other places jinn (jeem-nun) is left un-translated as "jinn" (example 5533)

5533 (free-minds)
O tribes of Jinn and humans, if you can penetrate the outer limits of the heavens and the Earth, then go ahead and penetrate. You will not penetrate without authority

both Jannah (jeem-nun-ta) and Jinn (jeem-nun) share the same root. And sometimes translaters translate the word differently even when the word uses the same exact letters.

The word Jinn in classical arabic is defined as to cover, hide, conceal (in Hans Wehr and Lane's Lexicon)

Another problem here is that we are only re-translating "jinn" and not the rest of the verse.

For instance, when we look at 5533 above we see the word anass (alif nun seen). Anass in classical arabic is defined as to be companionable, sociable or nice and most translators translate it into "mankind" or some variation thereof.
IF we try to translate only the word "jinn" and not re-translate "anass" properly we are left with a verse that does not make much sense. We also have to re-translate "company" in arabic maashara (meem-ayn-sheen-ra), ashara (ayn-sheen-ra) in classical arabic means to collect one tenth of annual produce or earnings. Maashara might be "one tenth of the annual produce"...etc..etc..

Then in some cases even when we do re-translate the entire verse we have to re-translate a verse or two before it or after it to really understand what is being said.

so we will really have to re-translate the entire verses to get a good picture of what is being said.

Once the entire verse or verses are re-translated using the proper arabic definitions, it really does make sense.

I cannot stress this issue enough. Too often we make the mistake of only re-translating one word in a verse.

What we really really need to do is re-translate the entire Quran using classical arabic and only then will we truly come to understand what we are being told.

To sum it up, I support Arnold's claim that the word "jinn" does not refer to another species.
I think that if anyone looks at this scientifically, and looks at the evidence and the facts, one just might come closer to accepting the logical conclusion that jinn cannot possibly be another species.

Maybe looking at the arabic dictionaries and looking at the disreprencies in the translations by utilizing openburhan.com might help anyone who wants to debate this.

I mean, its okay if one doesn't agree but they should know what they don't agree with.

So far, in this thread, I have not seen an educated argument that would make one conclude that a "jinn" is a seprate being or species.

Which leads me to think that unfortunately some people are more interested in arguing than learning.

Salam,
Arnab

[thegod]

arnab wrote
Which leads me to think that unfortunately some people are more interested in arguing than learning.

reading ur post...i couldnt agree more with u! -)

salam! -)

[maxq]

Salam Arnab,
Excellent reply! I might add that Falamma Janna 'Alaih-il Lail may be taken figuratively. It can either translate to "When all that (around him) was covered in darkness" or "When his (understanding of the marvels of the heavens and earth) was veiled by ignorance". Notice that marvels of heavens and earth have been mentioned in the preceding verse. Let's try to translate it this way then

And it is such that We showed Abraham the kingdom of heavens and Earth, so that he would be of those who have certainty.

(And this is how We brought him to the light) When his (understanding of the universe) was veiled/covered by the darkness (of ignorance), he saw a planet, and said "This is my Lord." But when it disappeared he said "I do not adore those that fade away."

An interesting word that comes from the root is which means "ignorant", or he/she who hides from knowledge/truth... another is which means he or she for whom reality is hidden... go figure )

Regards,
maxq

[thegod]

u still have not replied bro...when u quote a historian or a lexicologist...do u verify the information s/he provides?

...somehow u always seem to miss this question! -)

[maxq]

You have to start somewhere ntg... you have to put pieces together and see what makes sense (and that is what Abraham did too). By your token, the whole world is an illusion and that is something N2Is believe in.

[thegod]

maxq wrote
You have to start somewhere ntg...you have to put pieces together and see what makes sense.

u urself brought up 1736...so wonder why u are having so much trouble answering with a yes/no! -)

..do u verify what u quote?

..or do u blindly believe what they say? -)

By your token, the whole world is an illusion and that is something N2Is believe in.

dont ascribe words to me...u have failed to back up ur assumptions...

...the least u can do is not resort to what u have done for the length of this post! -)

again...do u verify when u quote somebody?

...or do u blindly quote them...against ur own advice regarding 1736! -)

[thegod]

abraham did not persist in his assumptions... grin

let us know what u edit...helps when replying! -)

[maxq]

ntg, perhaps I was not clear, sorry,

u urself brought up 1736...so wonder why u are having so much trouble answering with a yes/no! -)

..do u verify what u quote?

..or do u blindly believe what they say? -)
I verify by putting 2 and 2 together (please do not take this in the literal sense lol). This is exactly what Abraham did too according to 676-80, and that is what, according to 1736, God asks us to do at least.

dont ascribe words to me...u have failed to back up ur assumptions...

...the least u can do is not resort to what u have done for the length of this post! -)
I have not, or at least I think I have not.

again...do u verify when u quote somebody?

...or do u blindly quote them...against ur own advice regarding 1736! -)
I already answered this question.

And speaking of questions, what's with the "#" sign?

[maxq]

abraham did not persist in his assumptions... grin

let us know what u edit...helps when replying! -)

??? please read what you just wrote... it sounds strange... I can edit my reply if I like and do not have to let you know. I am not editing your posts buddy. If you have problems with me editing my posts, please talk to the administrator.

[thegod]

maxq wrote
ntg, perhaps I was not clear, sorry,

that's okay...there's always room to clarify! -)

I verify by putting 2 and 2 together (please do not take this in the literal sense lol). This is exactly what Abraham did too according to 676-80,

abraham saw with his own eyes and then corrected himself...

...he did not read what lexicologists and historians say and based his hypotheses on them! -)

...do u agree with that?

and that is what, according to 1736, God asks us to do at least.

...as part of ur research i have seen u quote historians...

so do u verify the information they provide? (the way abraham did...seeing with his own eyes)...

..or do u just quote and believe them? -)

I have not, or at least I think I have not.

cool ...i dint get these words

By your token, the whole world is an illusion and that is something N2Is believe in.

my token? do clarify! -)

If you choose to believe in folklore, that's your choice.

what are my beliefs? -)

I already answered this question.

cool! -)

And speaking of questions, what's with the "#" sign?

number sign! -)

[thegod]

maxq wrote
please read what you just wrote... it sounds strange... I can edit my reply if I like and do not have to let you know. I am not editing your posts buddy. If you have problems with me editing my posts, please talk to the administrator.

ofcourse...u can...but ur edited post gave the impression that u go abraham's way...

...while ur un-edited post did not! -)

it can be a bit misleading to the reader if somebody replies...and the poster edits his/her post later! -)

still...if u are more comfortabe thatway..cool! -)

[unknownuser]

Salam maxq and everyone,

I'm also wondering if maybe jannah being translated as garden or paradise is incorrect and a more accurate translation might be a form of "hidden" or "concealed" which would be more consistant with the root. Your thoughts on this would be appreciated.

Salam,
Arnab

[maxq]

You have a point as far as following lexicons, archeaological finds, and history... I agree with you but if I had certain knowledge of everything, I would not put a disclaimer header in my papers, would I? I verify within the confines of my capabilities.

ofcourse...u can...but ur edited post gave the impression that u go abraham's way...

...while ur un-edited post did not! -)

it can be a bit misleading to the reader if somebody replies...and the poster edits his/her post later! -)

I did not change the content of my posts... only corrected grammatical errors and typos. I had apologized for my earlier posts that in my view were imposing and in my view, scornful.

You mean I do not have the right to correct my typos?

And lolz on the "#" sign reply.

[maxq]

I agree with you. The "hidden gardens" are "Jannaat-i Adn-in" ... Same thing with "Jannaat-in Tajree min Tahtih al-Anhaar" and "Those Hidden (Gardens) Beneath which Streams Flow".

Salam maxq and everyone,

I'm also wondering if maybe jannah being translated as garden or paradise is incorrect and a more accurate translation might be a form of "hidden" or "concealed" which would be more consistant with the root. Your thoughts on this would be appreciated.

Salam,
Arnab

[thegod]

arnab wrote
I'm also wondering if maybe jannah being translated as garden or paradise is incorrect and a more accurate translation might be a form of "hidden" or "concealed" which would be more consistant with the root. Your thoughts on this would be appreciated.

that's a thought...what is the root of the word "hajar"? -)

..might help in getting at roots! -)

[thegod]

maxq wrote
You have a point as far as following lexicons, archeaological finds, and history... I agree with you but if I had certain knowledge of everything, I would not put a disclaimer header in my papers, would I? I verify within the confines of my capabilities.

so it basically is an assumption...and i hope u now understand a part of what i meant by being based on assumptions! -)

I did not change the content of my posts... only corrected grammatical errors and typos. I had apologized for my earlier posts that in my view were imposing and in my view, scornful.

while replying, i did not see the part where u mentioned it was the way of abraham...i saw it after i posted a reply! -)

...if u did not edit to add that (part)...and that it already was there...i guess i l offer u apologies and get my eyes examind! -S

You mean I do not have the right to correct my typos?

noooo...u have...werent talking about typos! -)

And lolz on the "#" sign reply.

grin

what about "my token" part? -?

[maxq]

so it basically is an assumption...and i hope u now understand a part of what i meant by being based on assumptions! -)

I am sorry but it is not the same as assuming. Using different sources to put together a collage is not an assumption. The pieces fit for a reason!

while replying, i did not see the part where u mentioned it was the way of abraham...i saw it after i posted a reply! -)

I corrected my typographical mistakes, speaking of which, everyone makes mistakes. Your ID does not imply you are not prone to error. No need to apologize for being mistaken.

Many thanks buddy; you have raised some very good questions!

Have a happy new year )

[thegod]

maxq wrote
I am sorry but it is not the same as assuming. Using different sources to put together a collage is not an assumption. The pieces fit for a reason!

cool...if thats what u think! -)

..but if i were to collect stuff from different "sources"...the only way i could believe they have any pedagogical significance conerning quran would be to assume that they are worthy of making the quran's text dependent on them! -)

...the assumption ofcourse is that the different sources are accurate! -)

I corrected my typographical mistakes, speaking of which, everyone makes mistakes.

yes! -)

Your ID does not imply you are not prone to error.

lolz to that bro! lolz

No need to apologize for being mistaken.

that's very kind of u! -)

Many thanks buddy;

anytime! -)

you have raised some very good questions!

is 'what about "my token" part?' 1 of them? grin

Have a happy new year

u too chum! -)