What would you do?

zenje

I believe eventually Iran may take over with a strong long-term barbaric fight against al-Qaida, Taliban and other sunni extremists.
Do you really see that happening? I don't know, I guess I haven't thought of Iran's interest in taking over Iraq.
It's interesting, just this morning there was a warning from Saudi Arabia about that. Not that I trust anything they have to say to the American public.

http//news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061213/ap_on_re_mi_ea/saudi_warning_12
NEW YORK - Saudi Arabia has warned Washington it might provide financial aid to Iraqi Sunnis in any fighting against Shiites if the U.S. pulls its troops out of Iraq, The New York Times reported Wednesday.

Saudi Arabia, a majority Sunni country, has promised U.S. officials that it would not intervene to assist Iraq's Sunni insurgency, according to the report, which cited anonymous American and Arab diplomatic sources.

But that promise might not hold if U.S. troops leave Iraq, the newspaper said. The Bush administration has repeatedly said there are no plans for the immediate pullout of U.S. troops.
Kind of convenient, don't you think?

Please note the excuses for this war from the beginning -

We're attacking Iraq because; WMDs/Saddam/Al-keyda (911)/tyranny and oppression/etc...
We're going to stay in Iraq because ; Al-keyda/Sectarian violence/restore the peace/stabilize the region/avoid massacres/protect Iraqis from Iranians/train Iraqi forces/build infrastructure...

Peace

unknownuser

Hello Zein,

Danish Iraq, as it now stands, I think the US and other Nations should deploy all the might and force to bring the entire country's situation under control strategically and then LEAVE. Few hundred/thousand military personnel can't do the job.

Zein That would be difficult from the US standpoint, since the current military has already surpassed its tour of duty. Unless you're suggesting the Draft.

True and besides it carries a large burden of treasury deficit and may further become economically unstable. I was suggesting along the lines of International cohesion by draft.

Danish If foreign troops walked out at this juncture, the devastation and massacre will continue among power hungry sectarian groups...

Zein You may be right, but IMO this devastation and massacre was brought on by the by the foreign presence to begin with. I don't think their force and might will help alleviate the problem. It will only 'force' the people to fight and rebel some more.

Yes, foreign vengenence, especially that of US, was the cause and initial devastation by air was thronged but ground invasion was not enough to begin with, some forces left early while others were not strategically employed.

Danish I believe eventually Iran may take over with a strong long-term barbaric fight against al-Qaida, Taliban and other sunni extremists.

Zein Do you really see that happening? I don't know, I guess I haven't thought of Iran's interest in taking over Iraq.

Perhaps not. My predictions are that Iran, being a force in vicinity and seeing the opportunity to capitalize, may have a keen interest on its neighboring Iraq for several strategic reasons and could very well be in collaboration with its allies, but Saudi Arabia (a Western ally) may be a hinderance. According to the news, Iran is already playing its role.

Zein I just keep thinking of the vietnam situation, the US left, and somehow they (vietnamese) managed without them, just as they did before the invasion. Again, I could be wrong.

In Vietnam war, the natives were more or less united and a stronghold that took the battle to its limits and ultimately forced its enemy out. But in Iraq, as the situation stands, there are a few extreme factions battling among themselves which makes the case bloodier with or without minimal foreign intervention, don't you think?

zenje

First, thank you for all for your replies (keep em coming! ), they are definitely enlightening. Secondly, the reason I came up with this question, was to see what we (on this board) can come up with as a viable solution. I think this Iraq panel that was created to come up with solutions, is a dog and pony show. Pretty much like the 9/11 comission. Nothing good will come out of it, atleast not for the Iraqi people. I don't know that anything good can happen after all the atrocities and horror that have taken place. Even the people who vehemetly speak out against this war, in the U.S., still say things like - We need a new course in every dimension. We need to start talking directly and continually to our enemies without pre-conditions Iran, Syria, North Korea and many others; even the disgusting and vile must be engaged. Disgusting and vile?... ???

All in all, I still believe that there will be no chance at peace without the withdrawal of foreign troops.

Peace

zenje

I just keep thinking of the vietnam situation, the US left, and somehow they (vietnamese) managed without them, just as they did before the invasion. Again, I could be wrong.

In Vietnam war, the natives were more or less united and a stronghold that took the battle to its limits and ultimately forced its enemy out. But in Iraq, as the situation stands, there are a few extreme factions battling among themselves which makes the case bloodier with or without minimal foreign intervention, don't you think?
If I'm not mistaken, (and I dont know much about that war) there was a conflict going on between the north(non-communist) and the south (communist) before the U.S. got involved. But you're also right that while these 2 conflicts may have similarities, they also have huge differences.

Peace

AspeRin

peace

mmmm if i was bush,wow,i could change the world
he is nothing but a puppet,one man cant just have a vision and make it come true himself.
people need to understand he is not alone,and he is not the one with most power.dont buy that republican-democrat stuff,the usa its a dictator ship now,they have voting machines to vote,u dont know who u voted,the people that make the machines have relationships with the bloodlines of evil(families).

i transform into bush...abracadabra PISHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!(smoke everywhere....im dubya!)
one day i wake up and decide to change,i cant do it so easily,all over people is watching me,they are going to kill me if i change my mind,this war isnt just about me,other men will lose money and power.so ill prepare a speech to say it when its national tv and all the cameras are on in the open people is also filming and i confess,confess all the evil that lyes behind me,how 911 was an inside job and the war in iraq its for power and illimination of people who do not buy our nazi mentality,ill confess everything.until they get a sniper and kill me,i could have changed the world,i hope God forbids my evil...

peace handshake

Alen

Salam.

If i was the president of the USA right now ..... i'd fix Mexico's infrastructure, so immigrants wouldn't be running to LA.
I'd also pull out all US troops from Iraq and resign, i'd give Hilary a chance.

Of course, these are just ideas, we can do something, if we just apply .....

Peace.

savage_carrot

i'd fix Mexico's infrastructure, so immigrants wouldn't be running to LA.

I don't think LA would be safe from immigrants solely by 'fixing Mexico's infrastructure'

get the troups out of iraq for sure but that wouldn't stop the massacre anyway - would be like lighting a fire and then just leave the people to burn in it - thank god i'm not in his place !

I know what you mean. I suppose it would depend on whether I could even do what I wanted to since personally I think there are levels of approval to go through, different groups to consider before anything can actually take place, if it ever got approved in the first place.

guest

Why not transform earth into haven like environment? This will take care of all problems including Iraq. We already have the resources, guidance and means. It has been shown to work in the past on vast portion of the earth.

Alen

Why not transform earth into haven like environment? This will take care of all problems including Iraq. We already have the resources, guidance and means. It has been shown to work in the past on vast portion of the earth.

Salam.

Heaven and Earth are different in 1 thing Time.
That's why Heaven is better the Earth, there's no Time in Heaven.

Peace.

guest

Peace Alen, I did not say Earth=Heaven. I was talking about heavenly attributes such as peace, no fighting, no forced professions , no slavery, not forcing your will on to someone else, ??And we have all that is necessary to accomplish it.

unknownuser

use my powerfull ally freinds to create total chaos, preferbly by ignoring the boarders to mexico and create smokescreens in my own backyard and then weasel out on a technicality if it fails. However it wont, because i made sure to have patriot act 1 and 2 in place before i did anything drastic. that way i could just call in the UN under guise of martial law if the people became troublesome.
Oh wait...thats what he did allready. I guess i would do the same thing that he did. THey won
Iraq. It is THEIR boys sitting in government, make no mistake about this FACT!

mission accomplished, we just need to find a way to pull out that doesnt make it all too obvious.

Unless ofcourse, and this is my personal pet belief, he is being sacrificed. The showpony has done its thing, now we eat it for supper, and take over the nation and later the entire continent, and when that has happened. where is left to go but the rest of the world. Africa is no problem, we have made sure of that, china is our freinds, and lodge brothers working under the system we came up with, europe...dont make me laugh, those fat assed morons have no idea they have been had for some 1600 years, atleast the Americans was smart at some point!

zenje

Peace all,

Here is what I would do

Applogize to the Iraqi people and the world for the crimes commited against them since 1991.
Well, Bush being Bush, he decided to send 21000 more troops instead.

This was an interview on CBS 60 minutes that I saw clips of. Something Bush said (among many) that had me - )
http//www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/01/14/60minutes/main2359119.shtml

PELLEY Do you think you owe the Iraqi people an apology for not doing a better job?

BUSH That we didn't do a better job or they didn't do a better job?

PELLEY Well, that the United States did not do a better job in providing security after the invasion.

BUSH Not at all. I am proud of the efforts we did. We liberated that country from a tyrant. I think the Iraqi people owe the American people a huge debt of gratitude, and I believe most Iraqis express that. I mean, the people understand that we've endured great sacrifice to help them. That's the problem here in America. They wonder whether or not there is a gratitude level that's significant enough in Iraq.

On Saddam's Hanging...

PELLEY I wonder if there was also some sense of satisfaction. You've had this guy (Saddam) in your sights for a long time.

BUSH Not really. Not really. I was satisfied when we captured him. I'm just not . . .revenge isn't necessarily something that causes me to react. In other words, I'm not a revengeful person. I'm glad he received the justice that was due.

PELLEY I'm curious. How did you see the video?

BUSH Internet.

PELLEY You called it up on the internet and watched it?

BUSH Somebody showed me parts of it. Yeah. I didn't wanna watch the whole thing.

PELLEY Well, you keep saying "parts of it." What do you mean you didn't wanna watch the whole thing?

BUSH I wasn't sure what to anticipate beyond the yelling and stuff like that. And I didn't . . .

PELLEY You didn't wanna see him go through the trapdoor.

BUSH Yeah. Yes. I didn't.

Alen

Salam.

If i was Gorge W. Bush, i'd make a complete U-Turn and i'm talking really big U-Turn

Pull all soldiers back home.
Start rebuilding Mexican infrastructure so that they don't cross the borders illegally at least.
Education and medical help/medicine - totally free of charge.
No more death penalty.
Robbers would do community work instead of lying in jail, watching tv all day, reading paper and eating without working for food.
Rapists would be hit 100 times with a whip in some public place.
Remove the $25.000.000 USD on Usama bin Laden's head.
Release all prisoners from Guantanamo Bay.
Focus on growing healthy food.
Ban tobacco, alcohol, prostituition, pornographic material. Also make sure there are no porn sites on the net.
Same salaries for all 300.000.000 people in USA.
Invest in NASA, try to build a peace base on Mars.
Build a space ship in Earth's orbit and later investigate space.

Peace.

mr__humble

peace, all,

Salam.

If i was Gorge W. Bush, i'd make a complete U-Turn and i'm talking really big U-Turn

Pull all soldiers back home.
Start rebuilding Mexican infrastructure so that they don't cross the borders illegally at least.
Education and medical help/medicine - totally free of charge.
No more death penalty.
Robbers would do community work instead of lying in jail, watching tv all day, reading paper and eating without working for food.
Rapists would be hit 100 times with a whip in some public place.
Remove the $25.000.000 USD on Usama bin Laden's head.
Release all prisoners from Guantanamo Bay.
Focus on growing healthy food.
Ban tobacco, alcohol, prostituition, pornographic material. Also make sure there are no porn sites on the net.
Same salaries for all 300.000.000 people in USA.
Invest in NASA, try to build a peace base on Mars.
Build a space ship in Earth's orbit and later investigate space.

Peace.

it sounds like Alen if you are president, your country would be called I.S.A., Islamic State of America, which is a good thing!

before i would do anything else, i would do about all of what you said Alen, with emphasis more on foreign affairs and reducing the national debt, if the national debt crisis isn't solved within the next 20/30 years from now, America will be in serious trouble, no matter how much bravado comes out of the republicans and democrats. majority of the world emerging powers have a huge advantage over America, Americans buy more foreign products than they would buy Domestic products... and foreign investors have majority control of Debt, there should be a compromising solution between labor and its value when the U.S. is trading, otherwise, they will never get out of debt which just keeps building on like an exponential growth.

peace, Rifat

unknownuser

oh man you have my vote bro Alen !!!!!

peace

unknownuser

Salam.

Heaven and Earth are different in 1 thing Time.
That's why Heaven is better the Earth, there's no Time in Heaven.

Peace.

Hello

Actually, I believe that there will be time in the heaven according to the Quran, it is just not 24 hours a day as we know it, it can be anything Allah can make

Salam

Lost_Philosopher

Salam.

If i was Gorge W. Bush, i'd make a complete U-Turn and i'm talking really big U-Turn

Pull all soldiers back home.
Start rebuilding Mexican infrastructure so that they don't cross the borders illegally at least.
Education and medical help/medicine - totally free of charge.
No more death penalty.
Robbers would do community work instead of lying in jail, watching tv all day, reading paper and eating without working for food.
Rapists would be hit 100 times with a whip in some public place.
Remove the $25.000.000 USD on Usama bin Laden's head.
Release all prisoners from Guantanamo Bay.
Focus on growing healthy food.
Ban tobacco, alcohol, prostituition, pornographic material.
Same salaries for all 300.000.000 people in USA.
Invest in NASA, try to build a peace base on Mars.
Build a space ship in Earth's orbit and later investigate space.

Peace.

I think Alen got it, the only problem is that your Bush, radical muslims still hate you. Without militant Islam you would go unoposed. Except that you might have some oposition with alcohol and porno knowing that they're only legal beacuse of freedom of expression, which is in the constitution.

peace, all,

it sounds like Alen if you are president, your country would be called I.S.A., Islamic State of America, which is a good thing! D

peace, Rifat

Theres a problem with that, its a constitutional amendment that the govermnet can't sponsor a religion. You can get the cross, 6 star, and yin-yang on a cemetery, but that about as far as your gonna get before the "Seperation between church and state" people get on you.

unknownuser

PEace Bro Lost

I don't really believe there is separation of church and state though. We wouldn't keep having the same issues pop up every four years - expanding/narrowing abortion rights, gay rights, and more recently stem cell research. If there really is a separation, there wouldn't be a whole controversy for a Congressman to get sworn in with a quran instead of a bible, etc etc etc. I remember a couple years ago there was a big deal about taking down the ten commandments from a federal building.

Do you believe a separation of church and state is even beneficial? My opinion is that it isn't. I think with the right "church" that is tolerant and all inclusive of other's freedoms to enjoy their own religions it probably would be more efficient than this two-step shuffle you see going on every once in awhile on Capitol Hill.

Lost_Philosopher

PEace Bro Lost

I don't really believe there is separation of church and state though. We wouldn't keep having the same issues pop up every four years - expanding/narrowing abortion rights, gay rights, and more recently stem cell research. If there really is a separation, there wouldn't be a whole controversy for a Congressman to get sworn in with a quran instead of a bible, etc etc etc. I remember a couple years ago there was a big deal about taking down the ten commandments from a federal building.

Do you believe a separation of church and state is even beneficial? My opinion is that it isn't. I think with the right "church" that is tolerant and all inclusive of other's freedoms to enjoy their own religions it probably would be more efficient than this two-step shuffle you see going on every once in awhile on Capitol Hill.

I dont know of any church that fully meets those requirements, so untill that happens , Im for seperation of church and state.

jankren

Religious country is a big no-no because tolerance and equality are harder to achieve in such a country. I believe people who do not belong to the religion which is set as their state's official religion would most likely face a condition in which they are at the mercy of those who do. Moreover, the majority would also feel they are more rightful citizens of the country than the minorities who belong to different faith. We must remember that people are people. Therefore, Islamic state or Christian state or whatever should never exist.

Peace,