@ Crossroads

phoenix1

For the life of me I cannot see the justification for 100 lashes for fornication. Two people who are in love and intend to get married, two people who've made an oath to each other, a commitment to each other, why are they punished

I don't see the justification either. But I do think that marriage (legal contract) has a purpose in giving women financial protection.
I think it's important for us to look at the quran (no matter how highly we regard it) with as much skepticism as possible. We can't take it's word for it.
The important thing is to follow the truth, not the quran. So as long as we follow what is true and just, it doesn't matter what the quran does say or doesn't say.
And you also need to take a hard look at what is meant by "one god."

Tay

Peace Esimsek,

I agree that it is promiscuity that's being addressed. If 2 people are in love and have committed to each other, then the bond is already witnessed by God, for God knows what we whisper to ourselves. Paperwork only makes it "official". So, in my understanding, there's nothing wrong with true love and true commitment being expressed physically.

Peace,
Tay

zenje

Peace esimsek n all,
And isn't there the issue of 4 witnesses, for the 'lashes' to even happen? I mean unless these 2 people were into some weird (public place) stuff or somehow ended up on Youtube... I don't see this happening.

More importantly though, as mentioned by Damon earlier, God knows what we do not know. This may be said a lot of times, and may even be a cliche, but how arrogant must we be, to think everything must be 100% clear to us, for us to accept it?

In the same chapter...
2418. And God clarifies for you the revelations; and God is Knower, Wise.
2419. As for those who enjoy that immorality spreads amongst those who have believed, they will have a painful retribution in the world and the Hereafter. And God knows while you do not know.

Esimsek, I respect your questioning and your stance, and all I can say is don't give up. I have a cousin of mine give up quran and later on God because one question that bothered him and couldn't get answered. I believe you can either give up or grow stronger from this experience, I hope and pray it's the latter.

Peace

unknownuser

Esimsek, I respect your questioning and your stance, and all I can say is don't give up. I have a cousin of mine give up quran and later on God because one question that bothered him and couldn't get answered. I believe you can either give up or grow stronger from this experience, I hope and pray it's the latter.

Hey Zein, have you "wrestled" with your cousin about quran and God and is he still a 'disbeliever' (no pun intended)? If appropriate, could you please shed some of his concerns?

I'm sure by now, you and some other older members of 19.org and this forum know my background in part. Now that I totally believe in an intelligent "entity", live my life dictated by Nature and Circumstance and strongly disbelief in man-made gods, makes me a "humanist" (a Naturalist).

zenje

Hey Zein, have you "wrestled" with your cousin about quran and God and is he still a 'disbeliever' (no pun intended)? If appropriate, could you please shed some of his concerns?
This happened about eight years ago. At that point, in my sunni days, I did tried to 'show him the light', but didn't succeed. And now he's too 'far gone' to see this point of view. If I were to compare, I'd say you two are almost the same in some ways. He doesn't call himself "humanist", but it's pretty close, I think. ) His concern was - Why would the all Merciful, all Knowing God create a human knowing that that same human would end up in hell? I think we've had several threads on this, so let's not go into it.

peace

unknownuser

This happened about eight years ago. At that point, in my sunni days, I did tried to 'show him the light', but didn't succeed. And now he's too 'far gone' to see this point of view. If I were to compare, I'd say you two are almost the same in some ways. He doesn't call himself "humanist", but it's pretty close, I think. ) His concern was - Why would the all Merciful, all Knowing God create a human knowing that that same human would end up in hell? I think we've had several threads on this, so let's not go into it.

Thanks Zein. At least we evolved from sunni days and I went a step further. peace

anonymous

Salamun alaikum.

The quran IS from God. I'm not going to debate its divinity. What i want to point out is that, denying Quran is denying God's sign(s), God's commands, the truth,etc etc. How can you say you believe in God but do not believe in God's signs, commands, message and not trust in God?? Those who disbelieve the scripture(s) from God, they are unjust/ oppressive. (1039) Be really careful in your decision and your speech.

1035-44

jankren

Salamun alaikum.

The quran IS from God. I'm not going to debate its divinity. What i want to point out is that, denying Quran is denying God's sign(s), God's commands, the truth,etc etc. How can you say you believe in God but do not believe in God's signs, commands, message and not trust in God?? Those who disbelieve the scripture(s) from God, they are unjust/ oppressive. (1039) Be really careful in your decision and your speech.

1035-44

Im sorry if I get this wrong but are you promoting blind faith brother?

RiseUpMyPpl

Peace All,

Most here know me, most don't. I'm a fairly quiet one, who prefers to reflect. I'd say I'm a very philosophical and open minded person. That I try to judge using my own experiences as some kind of barometer.

The past few months, I wouldn't say that I'm lacking faith in God, but rather lacking faith in the Quran.

I for one, don't believe that I will ever cease to believe in one God. But recently I have had doubts over the authenticity of the Quran. When I say authenticity, by that I mean, that in my mind, I believe that it is very likely that today's Quran isn't the original.

Why do I say this????

Well I'd count myself as a rational, logical person, and for rulings on law I'd like to see some justification, some reason behind those rulings.

For the life of me I cannot see the justification for 100 lashes for fornication. Two people who are in love and intend to get married, two people who've made an oath to each other, a commitment to each other, why are they punished?????

Forget even being married, what if they both agree on sleeping with each other??? It doesn't concern anyone but them, it's no one else's business.

I cannot see any valid reason for 100 lashes for fornication, not adultery (not saying that I agree with the 100 lashes either), but fornication.

And there are some other verses in the Quran which raise my suspicions.

first of all, i would like to commend you on being a rational, logical person. this is very important when it comes to understanding the qur'an.
pondeing the qur'an is an amazing experience...it's like basically trying to decode the book. the most important thing is that you have grasped the main concept of the qur'an and that is belief in the God alone, this is the most solid branch.

free-minds has an excellent article http//free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/koran.htm as to why i believe the qur'an is exactly the same today as it was revealed to the prophet. had the qur'an been altered, this structre miracle wouldn't exist.

so you have come across something in the qur'an that doesn't sound right at all to you...well you know what, it probably isn't right. i am not saying that the text of the qur'an is wrong..it's probably just how we perceive it that is. maybe it's not your time to understand those verses..but when it's your time to understand you will. the qur'an stresses exercising patience for a reason. i have reached a point of realization now that whenever i have a question about the qur'an..the answer eventually comes to me. when an answer is inspired to me..i feel this natural high, like i am on cloud 9.

let me give you an example...i used to ponder the story of moses, i thought to myself, did God really expect people to become believers after a man casts a staff and it appears to come "alive"? surely if this happened today, i would think this is some kind of optical illusion. i really didn't think God would play these kinds of mind games with people....then i thought is it possible for a man to part the sea? this doesn't sound very realistic to me at all.
so after some time of questioning and even losing a little faith...after doing a little reading and thinking... that's when the inspiration hit me!!! what was this staff of moses? the staff of moses was the TRUTH and GUIDANCE he brought! when pharaoh and his people had a showdown with moses they cast something and it appeared real to the people...this was the FASLEHOOD pharaoh and his peole lived by. moses then threw and it swollowed up all that pharaoh had invented..this equaled the truth moses brought prevailing over the falsehood and lies of pharaoh!!!
moses parting the sea = parting the sea of LIES, DECEPTION and FALSEHOOD (not a literal water body). this made more sense to me and this is what i believe of the story of moses.
i didn't like the wife beating verse that i thought was in the qur'an, i said this can't be from God...God would never order this. later on i found the article right here on free-minds...God didn't order wife beating but it was they lying sectarians that did.

so you think the 100 lashes doesn't sound very Godly? well maybe it isn't, maybe we just haven't the correct understanding of the context of the verse yet. exercise patience and keep an open mind..the answer will come to you. concerning the sex thing...i believe the qur'an allows sex outside of marriage..but only in a SERIOUS committed relationship.

esimsek100

Peace Brothers and Sisters,

Thanks for your kind words and support.

The Quran does indeed have some amazing insights, but as phoenix pointed out-

I think it's important for us to look at the quran (no matter how highly we regard it) with as much skepticism as possible. We can't take it's word for it.
The important thing is to follow the truth, not the quran. So as long as we follow what is true and just, it doesn't matter what the quran does say or doesn't say.

Let me explain, in the Quran we all know of the verse saying that God himself, protects the message, that the message is plain for all to see. Well with all humility, I'd like to say that I don't necessarily need the Quran to see God's system. God's system is all around us, God's system is a progressive path. By progressive path I mean that humankind will EVENTUALLY reach that moral and ethical point.

Like say for example, you see the 'muslim' protests and the bearded men holding banners saying that "Islam will dominate the world", well this is true, but it is clearly not in ANY man/woman's hands. This is the moral state that we (humans) will finally reach. This path, I believe, is ordained by God.

Returning to seeing God's system with our eyes, we learn that if we wipe out a species it has an effect on our ecosystem, that we could in fact be wiping out our food source. We learn that hatred towards each other leads us down a narrow path of violence. etc, etc, etc. Atheists tend to argue that morals and ethics would have EVOLVED without religion anyways, and this is true. This is god's system for humankind. To reach perfection we must go through trial and error.

That is why it is completely justifiable to me that the Quran can indeed be corrupted. Because the message itself is ALWAYS protected. The message is always there in our daily lives.

Peace Jankren,

The AIDS epidimic can be controlled. There are many contraceptives around the world. Abstenence is indeed one path, but that can clearly have an effect on the mental status of humans. The AIDS epidemec is widespread throughout Africa, and I'd hardly believe that they are a western society. But this spreading of AIDS, in Africa, is the resultant of ignorance and lack of education. It is an epidemic that is rampant amongst the poor of Africa, whereas in any western society, clearly it is not rampant.

As for the punishment, brother I have to see a reason behind it. What does 100 lashes teach the individual?? What does confining them until death takes them teach the individual?? What is the purpose behind it. How does 100 lashes equate to fornication?? These are the questions that I cannot answer, in regards to this topic.

Peace Damon,

Thanks Bro.

I'm aware that zeena is not just fornication. For adultery maybe there should be somekind of punishment, but 100 lashes?? But for the moment let's just concentrate on fornication.

One last thing I'd like to add; There are people all over the world who absolutely Refuse to believe in the quran because it doesn't agree with their sensibilities and goes against their vested interests. We should all ask ourselves if we know best or if GOD knows best. Do we disagree with or question the quran based on empirical findings or do we disagree and question because of our lack of discipline (and understanding) to do what it instructs?

Please forgive me for saying this, but questioning the authenticity of the quran based on your sensibilities towards 242 is not rational. One would need to bring forth something which actually proves that it has been tainted/tampered with and that we do not possess what it originally was. Until then, our questioning and disagreeing will be subjective and more than likely emotionally based.

Most definitely my current mindset is that I do not see anything wrong with sex between two consenting adults. That is why I question the Quran's reason behind punishing this act. But where I disagree with you is that we have a different set of morals/ethics (everyone does). And in my mind, just as in yours, to me it appears objective. As I said in my earlier post, I consider myself rational and logical, for me 1+1 has to equal 2, I can see the purpose behind it, I can see the justification of it. And this is why, this particular punishment strikes me as very odd. The Quran is filled with rationality and logic, but this 100 lashes punishment, what is the purpose? Where is the rationality? Where is the logic?

But, at this point, I am of the thinking that it applies to two people who meet each other at a club or bar, get a little tipsy and decide that they wish to have a one night stand. No commitment, no protection, no vowels before GOD, no intentions to marry and start a family morally.

And I don't see the problem here. They've made an agreement. It's just a plain physical action. We're programmed to search for this, to partake in it, to accomplish it. Yes it's true that we're programmed to do it for the continuation of the species, but none-the-less it doesn't really mean that you will impregnate somone. Some people are born with ovarian deficiencies, some people are born with testicular difficiencies, so why do they do it?? There's no purpose in those people, who can't reproduce, having sex. But yet their minds are wired that way, their instinct tells them to do it. I see sex as a completely natural part of life. I don't have a problem with it.

Of course I see problems with abusing it, but that comes back to the Quran warning us of intoxication. Anything in excess is bad for you. Anything too little is also bad for you.

Things like this happen in the U.S. all the time, which is why they have come up with DNA tests and Child Support. We wouldn't need these things, as well as protection and the fear of A.I.D.S. if we all conducted ourselves morally where male-female relations are concerned.

But then brother if we wouldn't need child support, why is divorce allowed in Islam?? AIDS is a disease, just like many other genetical diseases it can be passed down to offspring. Other genetical diseases are just as deadly as AIDS, e.g. Cancer, Heart Disease, etc...

Peace Zenje

And isn't there the issue of 4 witnesses, for the 'lashes' to even happen? I mean unless these 2 people were into some weird (public place) stuff or somehow ended up on Youtube... I don't see this happening.

See another one of my issues is the 4 people witnessing it. Recently in Pakistan the rape laws were amended so that rapists could be convicted easier. This 4 witnesses business, it doesn't do any justification for the victims.

But anyways back to fornication. Yeah there's the four witnesses stuff. I don't know man, it just makes it very easy to get away with. But my main point being, what's the reason behind the lashes.

It's just one issue I have at the moment. I'm patient, and as mentioned before I spend a lot of time reflecting on stuff, just general stuff. Maybe one day I'll find an answer but at the moment I haven't really got one, I've only got a sorta answer.

Thanks all.

Wakas

peace esimsek,

As for the punishment, brother I have to see a reason behind it. What does 100 lashes teach the individual?? What does confining them until death takes them teach the individual?? What is the purpose behind it. How does 100 lashes equate to fornication?? These are the questions that I cannot answer, in regards to this topic.

Are you implying you see no rationale, benefit, reasoning etc in these laws? Or just not enough to justify them in your mind?

Anything in excess is bad for you. Anything too little is also bad for you.

I disagree with the latter statement here and I dont think it can be evidenced from 'the reading'.

AIDS is a disease, just like many other genetical diseases it can be passed down to offspring. Other genetical diseases are just as deadly as AIDS, e.g. Cancer, Heart Disease, etc...

I think bro Damon was referring to the transmission via sex aspect of AIDS.

See another one of my issues is the 4 people witnessing it. Recently in Pakistan the rape laws were amended so that rapists could be convicted easier. This 4 witnesses business, it doesn't do any justification for the victims.

Are you sure "rape" falls under this category?

I'm patient, and as mentioned before I spend a lot of time reflecting on stuff, just general stuff.

Always a good sign. Tell me, does 1+1 always equal 2 or does it only equal 2 because one wants it to?

Wakas

Elke

Peace esimsek

oh how i understand ur questionnings this time

i'm mostly with tay on this subject

Peace Esimsek,

I agree that it is promiscuity that's being addressed. If 2 people are in love and have committed to each other, then the bond is already witnessed by God, for God knows what we whisper to ourselves. Paperwork only makes it "official". So, in my understanding, there's nothing wrong with true love and true commitment being expressed physically.

Peace,
Tay

all these questionnings brought me to my actual viewpoint on quran yes it was divinely inspired to a prophet 1400 years ago -which means to me no, don't take it in an absolute litteral manner - it's not a book that fell down from the sky as idolfree stated before - but it has been written by humans - even though i believe in the divine inspiration.
Also, as i stated many times before, i do not believe that the punishments applicable long time ago are of actuality now, even though the moral standards underlying these rules should be kept in mind and followed.

peace all, lk

unknownuser

Peace be with you Esimsek,

Most definitely my current mindset is that I do not see anything wrong with sex between two consenting adults. That is why I question the Quran's reason behind punishing this act. But where I disagree with you is that we have a different set of morals/ethics (everyone does). And in my mind, just as in yours, to me it appears objective.

But, at this point, I am of the thinking that it applies to two people who meet each other at a club or bar, get a little tipsy and decide that they wish to have a one night stand. No commitment, no protection, no vowels before GOD, no intentions to marry and start a family morally.

And I don't see the problem here.

I am with you on the note that only those who will follow the quran are those who have the set of morals/ethics that agrees with it.

May Peace and GOD's Blessings be with you,
Damon.

unknownuser

some people take authority as truth, while others take truth as authority. Personally im with the latter. if it doesnt make sense, it doesnt make sense and i dont care who is supposed to have said it, because at the end of the day i cant confirm the claim with other than God given reason.

I too have been wondering about this passage, but im fairly sure it talks about rape. Rape being the only truely illegal kind of sex there is. Sex without permission from the partner is obviously sex without the permission from God as the whole concept of freedom and free will is his. And as it is such a devestating crime the punishment is as mild as our good Lord. I would be a lot tougher being the judge in such a case, so rapist, thank God, that im not the judge becasue 100 lashes would be a gentle stroke compared to what i would do.

And imagine 100 of me. Now you have a very dangerous mob, so actually its a good thing that such rules are outlined before its the mob deciding in the heat of anger.

Why do i have this oppinion? Because there are no wedding ritual to be found anywhere in the Quran. What we know as marriage, and what was intended as marriage must be as far apart as oil and water. Someone with crawing for power and money, turned both the whole principle and the idea itself into a freakshow.

God suffice as a witness. Who disagree with me on this?

If that is the case, then all you have to do, to be married, is make it known to the public around you as to avoid problems with people hitting on your love. And make a firm agreement with eachother. thats it.
You dont need no preacher, imam, and you sure as HELL do not need the blessing of the draconian system. Think about it. God suffice as a witness, and here the system says that IT suffice as a witness. Who are those people??? how dare they!!! And the fact is that if the marriage is broken, you dont end up in front of God that you made the wow in front of, you end up in front of a representative of the system, called a judge! And now were talking money and contracts. So in the eyes of the system, a marriage is merely a mutually accepted exchange of services between 2 people, and the system want say on the product thereof like in any other business. Its just business.

Our whole concept of marriage is IMO. skewed to shits becasue of cultist rituals and stupid ideas. They call it romantic, i call it organised idolatry. Thus we cannot undertand the passage in question correctly untill we look at what makes sense and what makes absolutely no real sense.

AIDS? It started spreading in the homosexual communities supposedly. Can someone tell me what the homosexuals are doing differently than they did 5000 years ago when there was no aids. It came from a monkey in Africa, i personally find that VERY insulting, and im not even from Africa. I too used to reason that it protected us against STD's, because it does sound reasonable. but it doesnt fly, unless marriage is made a holy thing, that CANNOT be broken up ever. You do it, and then thats it, never no other partner for you Bob, nomatter what. Same thing with the argument of protection for children. With support for women. There is nothing in the marriage as idea, that protects us against anything. The only thing it does it actually making us liable to the system in another way, as it was back when the system was the church of Rome and they institutionalised it as is. The people who came up with international admiralty law, obviously, came up with this thing (As we know it) aswell. And it comes down to money and product.
Im neither, and im especially noone elses money or product, so who the hell are they to dupe me into unseen contracts!

The Quran is a highly spiritual and inspired book, no doubt. But its not the only one. And no book can be, the be all, end all truth or the WORD of God. It is the word of men who did what we are doing. Debated ethics and society, and had a strong faith in a creator God. The writers of this book was properbly a www.free-minds.org of saudi arabia anno 600. And back in those days, ethics was always related to "the gods". always. there was never an exception that we know of. the code 19 altso suggests kabbalists at work, and it is not a bad thing at all as obviously the writing contains much wisdom that speaks for itself with or without any code. Look at the hebrew numerology system from kaballah, that makes code 19 look like a math fluke from the 4th grade. It is evidence of very clever people, not God. Obviously. Look at the universe and compare it to the Quran. Not much of a comparison actually. The universe is one impressive design, the Quran is a book with impressive ideas. no comparison is possible. I belive God created and designed the universe, so the Quran hardly fit the level of design i usually see him about.

Call me a disbeliever if you may, but i insist truth is the authority, not presumptious ideas, or holding favorites before truth, as authority.

see yalls soon, but im not backing down from what im up to, so i have limited internet access.

phoenix1

great post Magi. And nice to see you back.

Alen

Peace All,
Most here know me, most don't. I'm a fairly quiet one, who prefers to reflect. I'd say I'm a very philosophical and open minded person. That I try to judge using my own experiences as some kind of barometer.
The past few months, I wouldn't say that I'm lacking faith in God, but rather lacking faith in the Quran.
I for one, don't believe that I will ever cease to believe in one God. But recently I have had doubts over the authenticity of the Quran. When I say authenticity, by that I mean, that in my mind, I believe that it is very likely that today's Quran isn't the original.
Why do I say this????
Well I'd count myself as a rational, logical person, and for rulings on law I'd like to see some justification, some reason behind those rulings.
For the life of me I cannot see the justification for 100 lashes for fornication. Two people who are in love and intend to get married, two people who've made an oath to each other, a commitment to each other, why are they punished?????
Forget even being married, what if they both agree on sleeping with each other??? It doesn't concern anyone but them, it's no one else's business.
I cannot see any valid reason for 100 lashes for fornication, not adultery (not saying that I agree with the 100 lashes either), but fornication.
And there are some other verses in the Quran which raise my suspicions.

Salam.

I've been there, brother, i've been asking myself why, why is The God Almighty testing me so much and so often especially these last few months.
Last few months, i've been tested more then my friends and i can tell because i see that apparently i pass the test because every next test i get, is the harder one, the toughest, so i assume that i pass those tests in the past.

Allah knows best.

Why should people be, for example, punished so harshly for sexual intercourse between 2 people, who mutually agree on sex outside marriage? Maybe because the human brain will suffer later, after the sex is over .... i know that if i commited fornication now, i know that my body might be satisfied but my soul would be one living Hiroshima.

Just rely on Allah Almighty, rely on God all the time and The God will guide you and protect you.
I can give you this patience. Just be patience and you'll see the results. Trust me. Be patient.

Be patient, brother.

Peace.

esimsek100

Peace All,

Peace Wakas,

Are you implying you see no rationale, benefit, reasoning etc in these laws? Or just not enough to justify them in your mind?

I see no rationale in those laws. Not just justifying in my mind, but just no rationale what-so-ever in the 100 lashes. Say some individual is punished with 100 lashes, then what next?? Either that person is not going to commit again, for fear of the lashes, or that person is going to be more careful when committing that same act.

Where is the moral justification behind the 100 lashes?? How does it teach the individual that it is wrong? What reason are the 100 lashes providing to say to the individual, this is why it's wrong??

I disagree with the latter statement here and I dont think it can be evidenced from 'the reading'.

Yep I think you're right, I'll have to check up on that.

I think bro Damon was referring to the transmission via sex aspect of AIDS.

Yeh I'm aware of that. But genetic diseases are also transferred via sex TO offspring.

Are you sure "rape" falls under this category?

Well where do rape laws fall?? It isn't covered in the Quran. This is probably the closest ruling there is to it.

Always a good sign. Tell me, does 1+1 always equal 2 or does it only equal 2 because one wants it to?

For me 1+1 ALWAYS equals 2. And this is what God is to me, no I'm not saying mathematics is my god. There is rationale, logic, and an unchanging premise behind it. 1+1 can never be anything but 2. The universe is built upon these simple laws, these simple laws give us a small glimpse at God.

Peace Elke,

So are you saying that you believe that the Quran isn't the word of God, but rather the inspiration of God?

Peace Magi,

Why do i have this oppinion? Because there are no wedding ritual to be found anywhere in the Quran. What we know as marriage, and what was intended as marriage must be as far apart as oil and water. Someone with crawing for power and money, turned both the whole principle and the idea itself into a freakshow.

God suffice as a witness.

My point exactly.

So in the eyes of the system, a marriage is merely a mutually accepted exchange of services between 2 people, and the system want say on the product thereof like in any other business. Its just business.

That's right. I personally believe that marriage was set up so that warring tribes could declare peace, or so that tribes could unite and be perceived as larger so that there safety was more guaranteed.

But two people who fall in love, can easily fall out of love. Which is why the Quran allows divorce. The problem, and maybe this is due to my mindset, is that I see such things as the 100 lashes, for fornication, still applying to this wrong concept that a female must be a virgin. If such mindset, to protect honour and family name (and god knows what else), is so important then there is no way the Quran would allow divorce.

Peace Alen,

Why should people be, for example, punished so harshly for sexual intercourse between 2 people, who mutually agree on sex outside marriage? Maybe because the human brain will suffer later, after the sex is over .... i know that if i commited fornication now, i know that my body might be satisfied but my soul would be one living Hiroshima.

See I have to disagree with you here. I'd say the reason your mind would feel like hiroshima is because society has brought you up to feel that way. Some examples-

*Hollywood movies convincing us to find romance, our one true love
*The institute of marriage being all around the world, everyone is expected to get married
*(If you live in a western country) Christianity being the major moral and ethic code, looking downcastly on sex outside of marriage

Being brought up to only be with your married partner
*A guy who sleeps around being called a stud (positive term), while a girl who sleeps around being given a negative term. This once again comes back to macho, insecurities of making sure you have a virgin for a wife.

Zehra

Quote from Wakas
Are you implying you see no rationale, benefit, reasoning etc in these laws? Or just not enough to justify them in your mind?

I see no rationale in those laws. Not just justifying in my mind, but just no rationale what-so-ever in the 100 lashes. Say some individual is punished with 100 lashes, then what next?? Either that person is not going to commit again, for fear of the lashes, or that person is going to be more careful when committing that same act.

Where is the moral justification behind the 100 lashes?? How does it teach the individual that it is wrong? What reason are the 100 lashes providing to say to the individual, this is why it's wrong??

This doesn't make any sense to me. Are you implying that a crime shouldn't be punished because it may not have the desired result? So, for example, a murderer shouldn't be jailed if imprisoning him is not going to reform him and he may commit another murder when he is free?

Also, sex outside marriage is discouraged in the quran. If two people are so in love and so committed to each other, then why aren't they willing to go the whole way and make their love legally binding (i.e. in marriage) rather than simply giving way to their emotions? Someone who's willing to postpone sex and marry his/her beloved before having sex is a lot nobler (and truly in love) in my book!

Wakas

peace esimsek,

It surprises me that you see no benefit, rationale etc for the rulings. Whilst I cannot say with certainty that these are the best rules (simply because I have not studied these aspects thoroughly nor have they been put into practice in a Quranic manner), I can still see some point to them.

If a couple is genuinely committed to each other then there is no reason to hide it. Hiding it, leaves both open to possible problems, some of whichinclude

pregnancy (which the father could deny after since no-one knew of the couple)
STDs (as sex out with marriage would result in an increase)
accusations of rape
reduction (to a certain degree) of morality for the society

Some possible benefits/rationale of the 100 lashes (please note, no specified severity of lashes is given)

public? naming and shaming
offender(s) become known
preventative to others
severity of punishment fits severity of crime (i.e. act requires 4 witnesses)

Well where do rape laws fall?? It isn't covered in the Quran. This is probably the closest ruling there is to it.

From the above, I am assuming therefore you have studied it and concluded rape does fall into this category. Personally, I have not studied it, hence asking you. My first/natural reaction to it was that it may not fall into this category.

For me 1+1 ALWAYS equals 2. And this is what God is to me, no I'm not saying mathematics is my god. There is rationale, logic, and an unchanging premise behind it. 1+1 can never be anything but 2.

Exactly. This is partly why I asked the question. 1+1=2 is independent of outside influence. Of course, that is only to one who understands the rule. Because you understand the rule (the maths, how it came about, what the result is, experienced it etc) it makes sense to you. Can you apply the same thought process to the 100 lashes rule? At the end of the day, the 100 lashes rule as per Quran is untested (to my knowledge) so none of us can say if it works or not. It remains an unknown. You cannot dismiss something on an unknown.

The universe is built upon these simple laws, these simple laws give us a small glimpse at God.

These laws are different to laws which govern an imperfect/human society.

I hope this helped. My intention was not to answer anything, but just to bring up some points for consideration.

unknownuser

I think it's important for us to look at the quran (no matter how highly we regard it) with as much skepticism as possible. We can't take it's word for it.

Phoenix,

Messengers went to their people and, said "Worship God, not for you from a God other than Him", how did they respond?

Instead of
listen, consider/ think, judge the message, take and practice according to the best message they understand

they (read again the stories of the messengers and their people)
judge outer appereance - social status, and, not doing the above verbs, but, they say

149 Has not the story reached you, (O people!), of those who (went) before you? - of the people of Noah, and 'Ad, and Thamud? - And of those who (came) after them? None knows them but Allah. To them came apostles with Clear (Signs); but they put their hands up to their mouths, and said "We do deny (the mission) on which ye have been sent, and we are really in suspicious (disquieting) doubt as to that to which ye invite us."

Don't judge in haste nor read it beginning with suspicious and scepticism. we should read with our heart and mind, listen to what it has to say, seek the best translation, and trust God.

As for me, i believe the whole of it. The one limited is our knowledge.