REF: virgin birth, what about Cloning ?
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Hello All
I was a bit confused regarding what this discussion is all about, after confirming with brother tanveer, I believe his point is irrefutable that God can do anything at any time, this is what Allah told us about Himself in the Quran, hence we should not really specualte on how Mary became pregnant, Allah told us in the Quran that He will make Isa and his mother a sign to all mankind and indeed they are
Thanks
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Peace all,
Following amazing video is an example of how amazing things are being discovered at a rapid pace. Just when you think you know it all and have discovered all the laws of nature and there is nothing else left to be discovered, something new and incredibly amazing is discovered. It illustrates how "supernatural" can be a relative term. Watch and enjoy
http//video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=3102044726280108434
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Peace Tanveer, all,
We're not discussing what "seems" supernatural. I'm not sure why you keep harping on this with no end in sight. Do you honestly believe that humans will one day create other humans by saying "be"?
Come on, bro.
And the token rejection verses are usually a sign of nothing left in the debate. I'm really looking forward to a time when people can debate without professing monopoly over the right understanding. I've got news for you...no one on this thread is rejecting God's guidance. It's just different interpretations.
May peace be upon you,
Tay -
peace,
Dear AB, this discussion is not on what Allah can do or cannot do.
Allah can do anyhting. This was never disputed or under discussion.
This whole discussion is if Allah breaks His Laws or not and what exactly His Laws are.
It shows we all have a different approach on this. And this must be respected.
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Peace Tay, here is how I view the system.
- Consider the following two observation of the natural phenomenon
Observation 1 Egg and sperm of 20 year old female and male are brought together (input)
Natural law (system) reaction A beautiful creation of a human
Observation 2 Egg and sperm of another 20 year old female and male are brought together (input)
Natural law (system) reaction No creation of a human no matter how may time tried
These natural phenomenons are unquestionable
Takeaway An apparent contradiction. How do we resolve this? The solution to this problem may resolve the other phenomenon such as virgin birth, fire not burning Ibrahim, opening the sea for Moses etc.
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To resolve this contradiction we have to bring another input to the system that decides (given the human inputs) weather a human is to be created or not. This is what I call God?s input (intervention). This is logical. The God made the system and he is in total control of the system at all time. There nothing that prevents Him from interacting with His system
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The God will issue the self destruct command of the Universe via this input mechanism. This idea is valid if you believe that the time of Day of Judgment is known to The God only. If this event is programmed into the system then there is a potential that human can extract it out from the system
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Now the so called supernatural phenomenon of virgin birth of Isa. The system creates Isa from God?s command ?be? and Mary?s egg. Just like the system created Adam from dust and God?s command ?be?. The same way an angle take the form of a human (does not actually become a human) and the reverse. This is why Ibrahim did not burn in the fire (God?s input). And The God does not do this haphazardly, this is done in accordance with certain attributes of God and His promise
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The author of The Quran claims that He is the creator of all that we see and that which we do not see. That is the absolute truth. Science can not make such claim and hence it becomes irrelevant in the discussion of creation and our relationship with The God. Science is man made just like hadith is. Scientific evidence may be used to confirm the working of certain laws of the system but it is in no position validate the system. Otherwise we will have to give human the infallible attribute
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The author of The Quran claims that He is the creator of all that we see and that which we do not see. That is the absolute truth. Science can not make such claim and hence it becomes irrelevant in the discussion of creation and our relationship with The God. Science is man made just like hadith is. Scientific evidence may be used to confirm the working of certain laws of the system but it is in no position validate the system. Otherwise we will have to give human the infallible attribute
Interesting way of looking at it. I look at it like say, game design, and how particular triggers are already programmed into the scripting to occur at specific times in specific occurences. If, then and all that, which execute like clockwork and are hidden from the gamers eyes. Thus all we can see is the end result and occasionally work out certain events. These are always limited to our knowledge of how we think the complete system works/is programmed and thus subject to change. There are no changing of laws in my opinion, just lack of knowledge of the entire picture.
We can argue till we're blue in the face, the basic underlying thing is, we think we're right
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peace
I recognize the fact that we don't know EVERYTHING, and that things we think are impossible now might not be in the future, but, why would the quran talk about things that we don't understand? isn't it a book we are supposed to learn from and be guided by? how can we do that when we don't understand anything from it? The quran needs to be understood to be followed, and that's why it cannot contain any scientific miracles or codes or prophecies (at least not ones that contribute to the message). People look at the quran as proof that the quran is from god. Well, that's not what the quran is.
And I have a problem with people saying that the "word of the quran" is enough for them. Well, that's blind belief. We can't know if something is true unless we verify it. We never start reading a book assuming that it the absolute truth, we can reach that conclusion after we've read and understood all of it. -
Yes. Exactly. But we have to use reason. We have to trust our intelligence, and not assume that the quran is the word of God. I think that most people on this forum (who do believe that) have reached that conclusion prematurely because they don't yet understand the quran fully. It's possible that most of it is true and some of it is not.
And there are people who don't see any "values" in the quran, because they treat the quran as God's list of miracles and prophecies which prove that the quran is from God. I mean, what is the message of virgin birth? what do we learn from Moses parting the sea? please don't tell me it's the same lesson over and over again - god can do anything. Well, anyone who believes in a god already knows that. -
The message, regarding things we need for spiritual success, are clear. The rest are, as they say, mere details. There are so many things to do in this lifetime, things that involve action, things that involve actually getting out there and doing good works, that arguments like did moses really part the sea? Huh? Fie on those that think so, they'll never get anywhere with that kind of reasoning, kinda loses it's importance. Stick with the basic message if the rest can't be understood or take it in a different way if that makes sense. If it works, well and good. If it doesn't, okay then. We lose track of the big picture and what we really should be focusing on. The doing and the putting into action part. Believe in God and do good works. I don't think He's going to be pushed then if we believed that jesus was from a virgin birth or that moses really parted the sea or that the malaika are thoughts floating around in our head.
And there are people who don't see any "values" in the quran, because they treat the quran as God's list of miracles and prophecies which prove that the quran is from God. I mean, what is the message of virgin birth? what do we learn from Moses parting the sea?
On the other hand, there are those that like talking and arguing about things, might even have everything figured out regarding jesus and iblis and the malaika but when the time for actual action comes, they choke. Whatever the message is, it's going to be something personal that is relevant to that person and this will differ from person to person. As long as they believe in God and do good works, I don't think anyone is in a position to tell someone else what some verse should mean to them.
As long as someone is sharing their opinion regarding their understanding fine. I really don't understand this need to be condescending towards others beliefs because someone thinks they have a better understanding. Share your thoughts, move on. There is no need to keep harping on about something as Tay eloquently put it. I dislike these symbolic vs. literal debates because every single time I've participated in one of them, it always comes down to a battle of who's more right, more rational etc etc. Who cares. It means something to me, God will guide me if I'm sincere, thats all I care about, the rest can go jump in a lake in sub-zero conditions ;D
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peace SC, well said (mostly). But surely you aren't implying that we should stop debating? that wouldn't be any fun at all, would it? I think it's good that we criticize each other's views, and it leads to more clarity in our understanding.
This forum's here for discussing the quran, mainly. And if we just take the "basic message" and ignore the rest, then we havn't gotten much out of this book, have we? And it's not as simple as "everyone's understanding is different." There are people who are more enlightened (or endarkened as black nationalists would say) than others. And if it's about being sincere, then there are definately people who aren't sincere with themselves and God.
so, everyone, resume telling everyone else what verses should mean to them. -
But surely you aren't implying that we should stop debating? that wouldn't be any fun at all, would it? I think it's good that we criticize each other's views, and it leads to more clarity in our understanding.
There is a thin line where the debate ends and where a useless argument begins. One can usually tell such from the circles in the sand when people keep at it.
This forum's here for discussing the quran, mainly. And if we just take the "basic message" and ignore the rest, then we havn't gotten much out of this book, have we? And it's not as simple as "everyone's understanding is different." There are people who are more enlightened (or endarkened as black nationalists would say) than others. And if it's about being sincere, then there are definately people who aren't sincere with themselves and God.
Who's asking you to ignore the rest? The problem with these 'debates' are, that the topic very often is not really discussed as much as their own way of looking at things. It often comes down to that, thus one starts with the verses regarding maryam and end up somewhere completely different because they have issues that supercede the topic itself. It's like one of those posting guidelines, "If debaters have approaches which are diametrically opposed to each other, it would most times result in a clash with no outcome except frustration." The real issue here is once again symbolic vs. literal, not cloning apparently as it says in the heading. Debate is fine but one needs to understand their own problems in communicating and where their beef really lies, discuss that as opposed to turning many threads into something else just because of basic underlying issues. This goes for everyone.
so, everyone, resume telling everyone else what verses should mean to them.
Please do so, keeping to the topic at hand.
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peace SC,
I don't think this thread is about symbolic vs literal. It was about whether a virgin birth is scientifically possible, which it is not. Tay brought up the symbolic vs literal thing, and I think that is what it comes down to, I guess.
Anyway, you're right. Thanks for the reminder. -
Peace guest,
Guest, you stated
- Consider the following two observation of the natural phenomenon
Observation 1 Egg and sperm of 20 year old female and male are brought together (input)
Natural law (system) reaction A beautiful creation of a human
Observation 2 Egg and sperm of another 20 year old female and male are brought together (input)
Natural law (system) reaction No creation of a human no matter how may time tried
These natural phenomenons are unquestionable
Takeaway An apparent contradiction. How do we resolve this? The solution to this problem may resolve the other phenomenon such as virgin birth, fire not burning Ibrahim, opening the sea for Moses etc.
I disagree. There is no contradiction unless you can provide in detail that all the variables were precisely the same. What we see on the outside is not encompassing and defining of what's going on within the body. I'm sure you're aware of this, and I don't mean to split hairs, but the premise is faulty as I see it.
Overall, I get your point and am happy to understand without agreeing. As I said in my initial reply, I don't see intervention as a contradiction but as an inconsistency. But that's just me.
The author of The Quran claims that He is the creator of all that we see and that which we do not see. That is the absolute truth. Science can not make such claim and hence it becomes irrelevant in the discussion of creation and our relationship with The God. Science is man made just like hadith is. Scientific evidence may be used to confirm the working of certain laws of the system but it is in no position validate the system. Otherwise we will have to give human the infallible attribute.
I agree. Science cannot validate the system.
The way I see it, God gave us signs. All around, within and without, are signs. In the book we call qur'an, we have guidance in understanding these signs and in understanding ourselves and how we can be most efficient in harmonizing ourselves with God. And God gave us the ability to decode these signs by sincere observation of nature(within and without) and sincere reading of the qur'an. Science is but one aspect of this ability.
Putting the tools to use, we get a picture, although ultimately imperfect, but a basic framework of what God wants us to see. So the basic framework is all we have to work with. And this framework is designed by God. So, for me, when I'm trying to understand the guidance provided and more than one interpretation can be taken from the text, I choose the interpretation that fits within the framework. That's really all I can do with what God has provided me. For me to sidestep and alter my own mind and soul in order to make an interpretation fit would be disengenuous and, frankly, cheating myself.
Peace,
Tay - Consider the following two observation of the natural phenomenon
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Peace Nadia, Phoenix, all,
My apologies for sidetracking. My intention was to express why it was becoming futile to continue the debate when the opposing arguments were coming from different perspectives, but of course, that spun off into space. Hopefully, we've all grown thicker skin and can continue peacefully while understanding and respecting each other.
Peace,
Tay -
No problems Tay, Phoenix. peace
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Wow, didnt this come at a good time at the year. Marry christmas yall, its a boy. well ofcourse its a boy.
Behold, the virgin birth (and yes, it's a son)
By Steve Connor, Science EditorPublished 21 December 2006
The world's largest lizard has astonished biologists by being able to produce offspring by an "immaculate" conception without the help of a male.
Two captive female Komodo dragons have had virgin births by a process called parthenogenesis, when an unfertilised egg develops into a normal embryo without being fertilised by a sperm.
The eggs of one of the lizards - a female called Flora at Chester Zoo - are due to hatch early in the new year, said Kevin Buley, one of the zoo's curators.
"Although other lizard species are known to be able to self-fertilise, this is the first time this has ever been reported in Komodo dragons," Mr Buley said.
"Essentially what we have here is an immaculate conception ... and it is a possibility that the incubating eggs could hatch around Christmas time," he said.
"We will be on the look out for shepherds, wise men and an unusually bright star over Chester Zoo."
The other female, called Sungai, lived at London Zoo until she died earlier this year of natural causes. However, DNA fingerprinting has shown that some of her offspring born in 2005 were the result of parthenogenesis.
"The fact that it has happened in two separate Komodo dragons, at two zoos and under different conditions suggests that parthenogenesis in Komodos is a lot more common than we realised," said Richard Gibson, curator of herpetology at London Zoo.
"If it can happen in captivity then the question is can it occur in the wild?" he said.
All the offspring produced by parthenogenesis are male which, unlike mammals, are the result of two identical sex chromosomes - in reptiles it is the females that have two different sex chromosomes. The study is published in Nature magazine.
A clutch of Sungai's eggs hatched in August 2005, two years after she had been kept with a visiting male. The zoo's keepers thought that she must have stored his sperm - a common occurrence among reptiles.
However, Mr Gibson was not convinced and decided to use DNA fingerprinting to resolve the mystery. The male offspring turned out to have the same genetic profile as their mother.
"I am delighted that the mysterious parentage of our Komodo dragon babies has been solved and that we have discovered something new to science at the same time," Mr Gibson said.
"This discovery also raises important questions about the natural history of dragons in the wild and will therefore help to safeguard the future of the species," he said.
Komodo dragons can grow up to 10ft long and are the only lizards that can eat prey that are bigger than themselves. They live on several islands in Indonesia but the wild population is small, fragmented and endangered by habitat loss.
One theory is that parthenogenesis allows Komodos to establish breeding colonies from sole females that have swum to distant islands. Although the parthenogenic offspring will be all males, they would be still able to mate with their own mother to produce both males and females in subsequent generations.
"Theoretically, a female Komodo dragon in the wild could swim to a new island and then establish an entirely new population of dragons," Mr Buley said.
The saliva of a Komodo dragon contains up to 50 species of bacteria and is virulently toxic - it often kills its prey by injuring the animal first and then guarding over it until septicaemia sets in.
who would have known? Jesus was a comodo dragon and not a frog as first thought.
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http//i5.photobucket.com/albums/y164/noahdk/day.gif
The Sun rises in the East, and sets in the West.
The Sun is a Chariot of Fire. It travels, like a chariot, and it's on fire. The Sun is the Unquenchable Fire. It is the fire which never dies. The Sun is like a burning bush which is not consumed.
During the day the Sun gives us light and warmth. That's good.
http//i5.photobucket.com/albums/y164/noahdk/night.gif
At night the Sun travels under the world back to the East so it can rise again. It travels through the underworld, i.e. under-world, - under the world.
During the day the Sun gives us light and warmth. That's good. At night the Sun no longer gives us that light and warmth. That's bad. Darkness has always been the natural enemy of man.
Evil is dark. For example, we talk about a person's "dark side" when referring to his or her evil tendencies. Evil is black, the color of darkness. The stereotypical villain wears black, whereas the stereotypical good person wears white, a bright color reminiscent of light. Nighttime is an evil time when our world is dark and black. The Devil is the "Prince of Darkness," literally. And we have a black square cube, go figure.
http//i5.photobucket.com/albums/y164/noahdk/heavenhell.gif
Heaven and Hell are not just theologically opposite, they are geometrically opposite. Heaven is up. Hell is down. Heaven is and has always been up above. Hell is and has always been down below, under the earth.
Go outside at night and look up and you are literally looking at heaven. And what do you see? You see all the stars, which make up all the constellations.
Hell is hot and on fire, because the sun is hot and on fire and the sun goes down there every night, setting everything ablaze.
these are some of the basics to understanding why this claim is wrong, wrong, wrong and more wrong.
On August 23rd the sun enters the house of Virgo the virgin. Virgo is the virgin that figuratively gives birth to the sun each year when the sun passes out of Virgo. Even though Virgo gives birth, she remains a virgin, just as Mary is the virgin who gives birth to Jesus and yet remains a virgin.
A star on the shoulder of the Virgin Mary was a traditional symbol in all art prior to the 1600's. The star is derived from the star 'Spica', which is the brightest star in the constellation Virgo.1 'Spica' is Latin for "ear of wheat," which Virgo holds in her hand. The sun's ecliptic path passes very close to this bright star as it moves through Virgo. Hence when the sun reaches Spica, it's time to harvest the wheat. Virgo is also sometimes depicted as holding an ear of corn.
Food and drink are literally the elements which sustain life. Mother earth brings forth food which grows up out of the ground. Because life springs forth from the earth, the earth is given the female role of mother, since it is from the female that life emerges. And if earth is the mother, then the father must be the god above who pours down rain from the sky impregnating the earth. This is why God above is a masculine "He" instead of a feminine "She" or a sexless "it."The sun/son is born or re-born in four different ways
Christmas Day (three days after the Winter Solstice).
By passing out of Virgo the virgin.
The dawn of every new day the sun arises born again.
Solar eclipse.
and now, for some reason some of you are trying to resell me this old mumbo jumbo, but the question is....why?
#get the full story here http//members.cox.net/deleyd/religion/index.htm#solarmyth
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Peace Tay, what is your definition of preciseness. Give me your error bar. Remember the lesson from Physics I lab.
An easier way to take care of your concern would be to show that two couple successfully produced offspring under diffrent environments i.e. diameter of eggs were different, one sperm had a shorter tail than the other, different DNA and many other variables I don?t want to get into.
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Good post Magi,
Here is an excerpt from an article about Christian symbolism etc
- The Sun A little difficult to ignore, don't you think. If the sun, which is the
source of all life fails to come up the next morning the ancient people would not have lived long and they knew this. The Sun invigorates you with it's energy and
causes the crops to grow. The Sun gives up it's life force to provide us with
warmth and food and many other things. So it could be said that the Sun of God
gives it's life up for US and it is the TRUE SAVIOR for it has risen-"Risen Savior"
When the ancient people would track the Sun on the "Sun dial", as it still does
today, the Sun traveles South until the Winter Solstice when it cold and harsh,
representing death and the Sun would stop "ON THE SUN DIAL FOR THREE
DAYS and on December 25th, the Sun would be said "To be BORN AGAIN" on
the CROSS OF THE ZODIAC" after having died for three days. This is when the
Sun begins it's annual journey back to the Northern Hemisphere.
The Ancient calender also started at a different time. It began in Virgo and ended
in leo, that is why the Sphynx has the head of a Virgin and the Body of a Lion.
When the Sun of God was re-born, it was in the Constellation of Virgo, so it was
said "Born of a Virgin". The Sun is the "Eye of God" or "Eye of Horus". Ra was
the Sun God in Egypt. His full name was Amen Ra. That is why we say "A-men"
after our prayers. The Egyptians knew this and all of the Egyptian beliefs and
customs are built into our society secretly by the Freemasons. Both symbols
below are the Sun.
aaaaaaaa
The Origin of the Trinity, the father, the sun, and the holy spirit. Horus comes up
at the "Hor-izon". He is born, this is the beginning, 1200 he is the "Most High",
and then the Sun "Sets", hence "Set" or "Satan", the prince of darkness does battle with the light of the world and wins, until the Sun is re-born the next day. This is
a representation of the evolution of life. The birth, or the beginning, mid-life
starting in your teen years, and old age, leading to death, the end of life. This is
also symbolized in other religions going very far back. In India, there is Brahma,
the Father, Vishnu, the Son, and Shiva.In Malachai 42 of the Old Testament, it states "But unto you, fear my name,
shall the Sun of rightiousness arise with healing in his wings." Look at the above
symbol from egypt of the Sun and his wings. Jesus was supposed to have 12
apostles. These were the 12 Houses of the Zodiac.In the book of Job Chapter 3833 "Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven?
3831 "Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Plei-a-des or loose the bands of
Orion?" 3832 "Canst thou bring forth Mazz-a-roth in his season? or canst thou
guide Arc-tu-rus with his sons?" This is all in reference to the zodiac and
astrology. The definition of Mazzaroth in the King James Version of the bible is
"The twelve houses of the zodiac".Jesus is said to have fed his people with two fishes and five loaves. The two
fishes represent "Pisces" and the age of Pisces or that particular House of the
Zodiac. That is why Jesus is referred to as the "great fisherman". It is also why the
Pope's headdress is shaped like a fish. If you turn it sideways you will see this.
Rome ruled the world for 2000 years under the age of Pisces. "Dogon" is the fish
God, which is what is actually represented. The New Testament is Astrology.In Matthew 2820 it states "Surely I am with you always, to the very end of the
age". What is being talked about is the "End of the Age", the age of "Pisces". The
end of the "Age" is often mistaken for the "end of the world", creating the
"Apocalypse fears". Joshua was called the Son of Nun, which in Hebrew means
"fish". The new "Age of Aquarius" is coming. The symbol for the age of Aquarius
is the "Water-bearer", or the man with a water pitcher.In Luke 2210, when jesus is asked by his 12 apostles where he will go to settle
his new kingdom, he responds, "Behold, when ye arew entered into the city, there
shall a man meet you bearing a pitcher of water, follow him into the house where
he entereth in." This is the "House of Aquarius".In Matthew 1232, "The holy spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the
age to come." In Matthew 1339, "The harvest is the end of the age, and the
harvesters are angels". 1340 "As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire,
so it will be at the end of the age". In Matthew 243 "and what will be the sign of
your coming and of the end of the age?" and from Luke 1830 "the kingdom of
God will fail to recieve many times as nmuch in this age and, in the age to come,
eternal life." First Corinthians 36, "We do, however, speak a message of wisdom
among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age who
are coming to nothing". Hebrews 65 "Who have tasted the goodness of the word
of god and the powers of the coming age". and in Revelation 153 "Great and
marvelous are you Lord God Almighty. Just and true are your ways, King of the
Ages."--The Sun, our Lord, is the King of the Ages
and we are in the "End Times" and entering a "New Age". There is nothing to fear
in this regard, of a "New Age" or the "End Times".The "Passover" is the Sun passing over into the Winter Solstice from the Fall
Equinox. This too was borrowed from the Hebrews who borrowed it from the
Egyptians.http//freedomdomain.com/relig.htm
- The Sun A little difficult to ignore, don't you think. If the sun, which is the