"Quraysh" - A Proper Noun?
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pazuzu wrote
It's interesting that this word appears only once in the Reading chapter 106.According to tradition, "Quraysh" was the name of the prophet's clan. (A clan is made up of various families, among them the Banu Hashim ).
Is there any historical evidence that the word is indeed a proper noun? Does it appear in the classical Arabic lexicons as a proper noun? Or could it be a common noun? If so, what is its root?
what do u mean by "historical" "evidence"? -)
..if u mean recorded in history...then yes....the arabs have "quraysh" as a tribe! -)
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There is no such thing in arabic called proper noun
it is called a noun and yes Quraysh is a noun
Salam
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Peace,
Although i do believe it is meant as a tribe name, as all names have an original meaning. The word Quraishin comes from Qarasha, meaning to cut off, curtail, earn, big fish, victorious.
The term victorious is where probably the tribe got its name from.
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There is no such thing in arabic called proper noun
it is called a noun and yes Quraysh is a noun
Salam
Peace Brother,
Brother Ahmad, both the books which I have of Classical arabic clearly mention there being something as "proper noun" and "common noun". To give one example, both books claim that if a word is a proper noun, then it doesn't need the 'Al-' prefix as opposed to a common noun. For example, it's "Makkatu al-muqarramatu", and not "Al-Makkatu al-muqarramatu", because makka is a proper noun and thus automatically definite. However, Kitab, which is a common noun, would be "Al-Kitabu al-karimu" not "Kitabu al-karimu".
Please correct me if I'm wrong and reply in this thread
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12841.0... so that this one doesn't go off-topic.
I'm sincerely interested in learning the nuances, unless there are none.
Nadeem
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Peace Brother,
Brother Ahmad, both the books which I have of Classical arabic clearly mention there being something as "proper noun" and "common noun". To give one example, both books claim that if a word is a proper noun, then it doesn't need the 'Al-' prefix as opposed to a common noun. For example, it's "Makkatu al-muqarramatu", and not "Al-Makkatu al-muqarramatu", because makka is a proper noun and thus automatically definite. However, Kitab, which is a common noun, would be "Al-Kitabu al-karimu" not "Kitabu al-karimu".
Please correct me if I'm wrong and reply in this thread
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12841.0... so that this one doesn't go off-topic.
I'm sincerely interested in learning the nuances, unless there are none.
Nadeem
Hello bro
can I ask, are they arabic books, or english explaining arbic books?
Salam
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Also bro
the Al has nothing to do with different types of nouns as you define them
if the noun has Al in front then it is called Ism Muaraaf, i.e. Known Noun
if there is no Al, then the Ism is called Ism Nakirah, i.e. Unknown Noun
Salam
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Peace brother,
I see where you're getting at.
The professors who wrote the books, are english, share between them 70 years of experience teaching arabic at cambridge and oxford. I don't think that they can be dismissed 'just like that', simply because they're english. Indeed, sometimes a foreigner might know the language better than a native.
Here are the books, I've mentioned one to you before
An Introduction to Koranic and Classical Arabic An Elementary Grammar of the Language by Wheeler M. Thackston
http//www.amazon.com/Introduction-Koranic-Classical-Arabic-Elementary/dp/0936347406/sr=1-1/qid=1166624899/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-8333234-8704022?ie=UTF8&s=booksArabic Through the Qur'an (Islamic Texts Society) by Alan Jones
http//www.amazon.com/Arabic-Through-Quran-Islamic-Society/dp/0946621683/sr=8-2/qid=1166624422/ref=pd_bbs_2/002-8333234-8704022?ie=UTF8&s=booksThanks for the details on grammar though -)
From what I understand, the known-unknown noun applies only to 'common nouns', as there are none unknown 'proper nouns'.
Nadeem
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Peace brother,
Salam bro
I see where you're getting at.
No, I don't think you see it
The professors who wrote the books, are english, share between them 70 years of experience teaching arabic at cambridge and oxford.
sorry bro, that does not mean anything to me, at the end of the day they tried to make the Arabic simple for the english people to understand it hence they tried to make it look like english for them
I don't think that they can be dismissed 'just like that',
for you yes, but for me I donlt even need to read their books, hence I will dismiss them like that
simply because they're english.
no, it is simply because I'm an Arab
Indeed, sometimes a foreigner might know the language better than a native.
I have not seen a foreigner yet who knows it better than me, but In have see arabs who know it far better than me
Here are the books, I've mentioned one to you before
Thank you bro, but I'm not interested because I'm an arab
Thanks for the details on grammar though -)
No worries
From what I understand, the known-unknown noun applies only to 'common nouns', as there are none unknown 'proper nouns'.
Nadeem
wrong because my name "Ahmed" is known and it does not have the AL, there are far more to the Arabic grammar than what you think mate, please donlt try and make it english because it is not
cheers
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Peace Brother,
I apologize if I misunderstood peace
I certainly agree upon, and advocate myself the notion that any superior language cannot be translated into an inferior language, without the use of simplification that ultimately results in some loss. Yet, I'm not convinced that such is the case with nouns.
What you call 'known' and 'unknown' are usually called 'definite' and 'indefinite', respectively.
A common noun might be either of the two, whilst a proper noun is semantically always definite/known.
You gave your own name as an example "Ahmad", and if you re-read my previous post, you'll see that I wasn't contradicting you but instead indicating that 'Ahmad' in fact had to be known/definite because it's a proper noun. 'Ahmad' is not a 'common noun', it is not the name of a thing, but a name of a person and thus a 'proper noun'.
Please read this definition and confirm to me that our understanding of the concepts are the same, or are we simply taking past eachother
A noun, or noun substantive, is a word or phrase that refers to a person, place, thing, event, substance or quality. Nouns are parts of speech and can be classified in different ways such as proper nouns (e.g. "Janet" versus common nouns (e.g. "girl", or collective nouns (e.g. "bunch", "herd". Nouns can be substituted by pronouns (e.g. "she" and "which". The word noun derives from Latin nomen meaning "name" (as a noun can be considered an object, person, or concept's name).
Do you still think that the arabic language does not, by means of grammar, differenciate between names for people and persons, and names for objects and things?
Consider the phrase 'Al-kitabu al-kabiru'. If I want to say "Ahmad the great", can I simply change Kitabu with Ahmadu, making it 'Al-Ahmadu al-kabiru'. No, I'll be having to drop the definite particle Al as well since Ahmadu, as a proper noun, is already definite. I'm supposed to keep the Al when saying Kitabu, because kitabu, as a common noun, is not already definite and needs, at least in this sentence, an Al to be so.
As it seems, and as I've demonstrated, the arabic language and its grammar does in fact differenciate between a persons name and an objects name.
Since I'm write in a "This is so, and that is so"-manner, I must admit that I know very little of the language, I'm simply writing like this to be clear not cocky.
Speaking of cocky, don't you think it's a bit wrong of you to dismiss someone based on their ethnicity? Isn't it racism?
There are many foreigners in norway who beat natives in languages tests. I don't see why that doesn't apply to arabic as well.
Nadeem
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nadeem wrote
'Ahmad' is not a 'common noun', it is not the name of a thing, but a name of a person and thus a 'proper noun'.ok...a proper noun does not have to be the name of a person...it can be the name of a thing as well! -)
kaaba, almasjid alharam...these are appellations and not mere common nouns (and yes they are not persons either) -)
