Criticism of Mecca and Kaaba
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Peace andd greetings,
I have read a verse in Quran which says that You shall find the face of the God in every direction because to Him belogs easts and wests. Qibla towards sacred temple has been prescribed by the God so there should be no argument about it. However it has become controversial in the light of archaeological evidence whether Kaaba in Mecca or Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem is the real Qibla.
Please read the following article by brother Layth which illustrates the controversy.
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/quranic/hajj.htm
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peace Abrar, you should read Ayman's article "How did it come to this."
Anyway, I don't think the qibla is toward any physical structure, but a mental state. Don't you think it is contradictory if the quran says that God is everywhere and then says "face this direction!"
I also recommend reading Ayman's article "what's in a name." good read.Anyway, I'm not as concerned about what the quran says as much I want to see what logic says about a holy city and structure. Whether the "house of god" is in mecca, jeruselum, or ulan bator, the idea of a central city doesn't hold much water, IMO.
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peace everyone
for me it seems obvious,that facing Kaaba on salat is not an innovation.
i was kept from generation to generation.
in quran says,that some non believers started to make fun of muslims because they changed the qibla the opposite way...jerusalem and makkah are in both opposite sides of medina.so they changed from one to another.the first had to be the dome of rock,because makkah was a temple full of many idols at the beginning.
that believers dont follow phony ahadith doesnt mean we have do the total opposite of those who believe in them...just a thought,but its always nice to recheck din stuff for ourselves.peace handshake
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peace
anyone who are symbol litterate will tell you that the whole area around the kaba and the kaba itself is a hodgepodge of sexual symbolism and astro theological ideas and concepts. There aint nothing holy about Mecca, there aint nothing holy in Rome, and there sure as hell is nothing holy about Jerusalem. Yeah the stories...they are full of holes. So it would be the holey Mecca.
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asperin wrote
for me it seems obvious,that facing Kaaba on salat is not an innovation.i was kept from generation to generation.
2149 And from where you got out so turn your face towards the Mosque the Forbidden/Sacred , and that it is the truth (E) from your Lord, and that God (is) not with ignoring/disregarding about what you are making/doing .
in quran says,that some non believers started to make fun of muslims because they changed the qibla the opposite way...jerusalem and makkah are in both opposite sides of medina.so they changed from one to another.the first had to be the dome of rock,because makkah was a temple full of many idols at the beginning.
have the disbelievers ever acted different? -)
that believers dont follow phony ahadith doesnt mean we have do the total opposite of those who believe in them...just a thought,but its always nice to recheck din stuff for ourselves.
right on...v believe in the quran and what it says..
...wa-innahu lalhaqqu min rabbika wama Allahu bighafilin AAamma taAAmaloona! -)
peace! -)
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Kaba was build and made pilgrimage place during Abraham time.
Now, non of the scriptures or hadiths have any record of God's Messengers (Moses, David, Jesus, Solomon...) ever done the pilgrimage to Mecca.If God's messengers weren't obliged by the "holy city" and Kaaba why should we be??? And they are best example for us.
Any lawyer will get you of the hook from this aligation of criticising Mecca and Kaaba.
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Peace and greetings,
Dear Phoenix,
Yes I agree with you that salat is a state of mind in which we glorify and praise and thank the God in submission and humbleness. When we demand something from God it becomes Dua or prayer but when we glorify, praise and thank the God it becomes salat. Dua/prayer according to Quran is calling on God for some need. Salat according to Quran is praising God by Glorification and thanking. However the arabic word "Masjid" which means a place of prostration or temple is a physical structure. It is not mental imagination of somekind of feeling or else the word "Masjid" would be a mythical and imaginary place of praising God which has nothing to do with the spiritual satisfaction one gets while praising God. Such imagery has no meaning to define the overall state of mind while performing salat which is independent of any imaginary place of prostration. Place of prostration is where you devote your words of praise for the God according to Quranic words for praising the God. The physical place has to be in public for universality of the message of the God for believers so it is a physical place where you praise the God in any civilized position(not by physical bowing and kneeling) by repeating any words for praise according to Quranic words. salat can be performed at home as well. But "Masjid" or place of prostration or temple is a public sanctuary devoted for praising the God in public. All entrances of the temples/Mosques has to be in accordance with a central temple called the sacred temple/Mosque to symbolise God's House which is for the common family of believers around the world. So it is world publicity. Physical structure is just made up of stones and in no way the stones play any role in symbolising or signifying the Praise of the God, they are just physical places where people gather to collectively praise the God as a society. Do not tell me that the ink with which the Quran is written is somehow sacred. It is in fact human act of writing the Quran for convenience. The meaning displayed by the ink used in writing the Quran is sacred.
The God is the Lord of the two easts and the Lord of the two wests, so His presence is everywhere. However You cannot reject the God's command of Qibla towards Sacred mosque by saying that it is not piety to turn your face towards the east or west but it is piety to believe In the God, so Qibla is from Quran and it is the word of the God. You do not choose a Qibla by imagination but by the commands of the God given in Quran. Would it not have been simple for the God to illustrate that Qibla and mosques are imaginary. We live in a 3D world and have 360 degrees angle around us so how can you escape directions by imagination of your mind and pretend that you are facing every direction of 360 degrees. Remember the God says that no vision can grasp/sorround/comprehend Him but He surrounds every vision from all sides and directions. You cannot pinpoint the God's direction either by physical or mental means.
Chapter 17 verse 60
?Your Lord has encompassed the people.?
Chapter 6 verse 103
"The eyesight cannot reach Him, yet He can reach all eyesight; and He is the Subtle, the Expert.'
Chapter 2 verse 115
"And to God belongs the east and the west, so wherever you turn, there is God?s presence. God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable."
Chapter 2 verse 114.
'And who are more wicked than those who boycott God?s temples; so that His name not be mentioned in them; and they seek their destruction? They will not be able to enter them except in fear; they will have humiliation in this world and in the Hereafter a painful retribution. "
Chapter 22 verse 40
"The ones who were driven out of their homes without justice, except that they said ?Our Lord is God!? And if it were not for God defending the people against themselves, then many places of gathering, and markets, and affirmations, and temples where the name of God is frequently mentioned, would have been destroyed. God will give victory to those who support Him. God is Powerful, Noble."
After reading the meanings of Mosque according to context of verses It does not seem to be mere state of mind. State of mind is obviously spiritual satisfaction whenever a believer is praising the God with humbleness so too many metaphorical explanations for everything is counterproductive.
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Yes I agree with you that salat is a state of mind in which we glorify and praise and thank the God in submission and humbleness. When we demand something from God it becomes Dua or prayer but when we glorify, praise and thank the God it becomes salat. Dua/prayer according to Quran is calling on God for some need. Salat according to Quran is praising God by Glorification and thanking.
peace Abrar,
I don't believe that the salat is a mental state of mind. I believe it is a rather physical action to bring us closer to God.
And salat never means glorifying or praising or thanking God (I don't think there is any verse that says it is). salat is a way to make us better servants of God. We do that by changing our suconscious.However the arabic word "Masjid" which means a place of prostration or temple is a physical structure. It is not mental imagination of somekind of feeling or else the word "Masjid" would be a mythical and imaginary place of praising God which has nothing to do with the spiritual satisfaction one gets while praising God.
Spiritual satisfaction? you mean we observe salat and dua to feel good? I disagree.
Masjid being a physical place makes no sense. I know that I can perform salat wherever I am.
And masjid being a non physical place doesn't make it meaningless. In fact, a physical place is what is meaningless. Because we can perform our actions anywhere and anytime. We don't need a special place (with magical powers?) to do it. We don't need temples. And we certainly don't need to face those temples at any time in our lives.
Salat is done not for spiritual satisfaction, but for improving our behavior and getting closer to God.he God is the Lord of the two easts and the Lord of the two wests, so His presence is everywhere. However You cannot reject the God's command of Qibla towards Sacred mosque by saying that it is not piety to turn your face towards the east or west but it is piety to believe In the God, so Qibla is from Quran and it is the word of the God.
that is a contradiction. And you know it. God cannot say "I'm everywhere," and "piiety is not to turn to the east or west" and then say "turn that way or go to hell!". That is a contradcition and you can't escape that fact. The only way it is not a contradiction is if the qibla is not a physical direction, but a mental direction for ourselves.
Just think about it, when you want to do something, you focus on that. You keep your eye on the prize. You concentrate on your goals. That is your target. Your qibla. Facing a certain place in saudi arabia will not help you achieve your goals if your focus is not on achieving those goals.
Do you understand where I'm coming from?
If I want to type this post, I don't focus on Mecca, I focus on what I'm going to say.There is nothing "metaphorical" about this. It's just simple logic. I have found that turning toward mecca doesn't help me at all. But turning toward what I'm about to do and focus on my goals is what helps me. That is what I have verified.
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- Qad nara taqalluba wajhika fee alssama-i falanuwalliyannaka qiblatan tardaha fawalli wajhaka shatra almasjidi alharami wahaythu ma kuntum fawalloo wujoohakum shatrahu wa-inna allatheena ootoo alkitaba layaAAlamoona annahu alhaqqu min rabbihim wama Allahu bighafilin AAamma yaAAmaloona
2144 We see the shifting of your face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you "You shall set yourself towards the Restricted Temple; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it." Those who have been given the Scripture know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do.
- Waoqtuloohum haythu thaqiftumoohum waakhrijoohum min haythu akhrajookum waalfitnatu ashaddu mina alqatli wala tuqatiloohum AAinda almasjidi alharami hatta yuqatilookum feehi fa-in qatalookum faoqtuloohum kathalika jazao alkafireena
2191 And kill them wherever you find them, and expel them from where they expelled you, and know that persecution is worse than being killed. And do not fight them at the Restricted Temple unless they fight you in it; if they fight you then kill them, thus is the reward of the disbelievers.
A physical place!
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nun de plume wrote
2144. Qad nara taqalluba wajhika fee alssama-i falanuwalliyannaka qiblatan tardaha fawalli wajhaka shatra almasjidi alharami wahaythu ma kuntum fawalloo wujoohakum shatrahu wa-inna allatheena ootoo alkitaba layaAAlamoona annahu alhaqqu min rabbihim wama Allahu bighafilin AAamma yaAAmaloona2144 We see the shifting of your face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you "You shall set yourself towards the Restricted Temple; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it." Those who have been given the Scripture know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do.
- Waoqtuloohum haythu thaqiftumoohum waakhrijoohum min haythu akhrajookum waalfitnatu ashaddu mina alqatli wala tuqatiloohum AAinda almasjidi alharami hatta yuqatilookum feehi fa-in qatalookum faoqtuloohum kathalika jazao alkafireena
2191 And kill them wherever you find them, and expel them from where they expelled you, and know that persecution is worse than being killed. And do not fight them at the Restricted Temple unless they fight you in it; if they fight you then kill them, thus is the reward of the disbelievers.
A physical place!
nice work...pure and pristine...from the book of god! -)
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Salaam all,
Something else to read concerning this topic is Mekka is NOT Bakka by Muhammad Ahmed ( he also translated the quran with his daughter Samira).
I think it is well worth the read.
Salaam,
Damon. -
damon wrote
Something else to read concerning this topic is Mekka is NOT Bakka by Muhammad Ahmed ( he also translated the quran with his daughter Samira).i think phoenix1 is more concerned about the logic behind facing in a particular direction, rather than mecca/bakka issue! -)
however...i read it...a few years back!
...there is another 1 on the web...some site by some gaznavi...dont remember the exact name...but dont think he is a muslim! -)
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http//free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/name.htm
http//free-minds.org/articles/history/ayman1.htm
these are Ayman's articles I was referring to. But, as thegod said, I'm more interested in the logical aspect of it.
the fact is, and I have verified this, that turning toward an object 1000s of miles away does not help me do anything. And my attitude or personality don't change when I move from home to some temple. It's always the same. So the conclusion is that directions or locations don't matter.
This is the logical and scientific conclusion. If the quran conforms to logic and science, then the quran should agree with it.
anyone have an argument against this? -
nun de plume wrote
2144. Qad nara taqalluba wajhika fee alssama-i falanuwalliyannaka qiblatan tardaha fawalli wajhaka shatra almasjidi alharami wahaythu ma kuntum fawalloo wujoohakum shatrahu wa-inna allatheena ootoo alkitaba layaAAlamoona annahu alhaqqu min rabbihim wama Allahu bighafilin AAamma yaAAmaloona...
2191 And kill them wherever you find them, and expel them from where they expelled you, and know that persecution is worse than being killed. And do not fight them at the Restricted Temple unless they fight you in it; if they fight you then kill them, thus is the reward of the disbelievers.
A physical place!
the usage of the word in the verses does establish that it is a physical place...
...and "almasjidalharam" is an appelation given to the specific mosque, in the direction of which, v are required to face! -)
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phoenix1 wrote
the fact is, and I have verified this, that turning toward an object 1000s of miles away does not help me do anything. And my attitude or personality don't change when I move from home to some temple. It's always the same. So the conclusion is that directions or locations don't matter.
This is the logical and scientific conclusion. If the quran conforms to logic and science, then the quran should agree with it.
anyone have an argument against this?to be honest i myself dont understand much! -)
...i mean i dont see why god created us...and i am being honest..i dont see the logic behind it! -)
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Peace to all,
The god, even if you dont have all the answers and you dont understand why God created us and cant see the logic of it, you cant deny that he created you can you, do you deny that you are even here on earth, if you cant deny your creation then maybe you should just accept that you are here for something, maybe we will never know why God created us but he did, and in the end only he knows, not even the angels knew why remember, God says to them I know something you dont know, so if even the angels who were witness to creation doesnt know why then I dont think we can know why, maybe you dont see whats logical about it but your trying to figure out why God created everything but your using your creted brain to figure it out..
As far as turning towards mecca or the kabba, I do it as best I can, i dont think its clearly figured out what and where we are to turn but until it is I see nothing wrong with doing it, i would rather err on the side of caution.
Kurt
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to be honest i myself dont understand much! -)
...i mean i dont see why god created us...and i am being honest..i dont see the logic behind it! -)
peace thegod,
God created us to serve It. That is our purpose. It is for our own good to serve God. So we do it. That is the logic behind it.
I have given you a good argument against facing a black pagan cube while praying, but all you can do is give me the above which has nothing to do with what we are talking about.
And just because we don't know some answers doesn't mean we just believe whatever someone tells us.
You don't what the logic behind our creation is, so why don't you just believe that there's a blue cat sitting on your head. I can't believe how people can show such blalant disregard for 1736 to support their "faith."
God has given you your head for a reason. Use it (not literally). -
Dear Phoenix1,
Salat means affirmation. You perform salat for God by praising, thanking and glorifying Him. The God does not need any physical betterment or anything concerned with our improving of service. Purification of our service is an ongoing process throughout life so it is our requirement not the God's. The God has created men and JInn for service so it is the sumtotal of our lifetimes. Salat is a special way of serving God by praising Him alone. The logic i see phoenix1 behind your explantions is that you want to understand everything by logic. Can you explain by logic why the God is the First or what is the logic behind HIm to be the Eternal. You can never expect to win with athiest mathematicians and scientists by verifying the God's attributes by pure logic of whys and reasons alone. The debate would only be answered by satisfaction of our complete view of physical matter and essence of life.
Chapter 3 verse
..."and if they stand to make the affirmation/salat, they do so lazily, only to show the people; they do not remember God except very little."
Chapter 3 verse 39.
"the Angels called to him whilst he was standing making the affirmation/salat in the temple enclosure ?God gives you good tidings of John, authenticating the word from God, and a master, and steadfast, and a prophet from the upright.?'
Chapter 3 verse 101
"And if you are on the offensive in the land, then there is no harm that you shorten from the affirmation/salat, if you fear that the disbelievers will try you. The disbelievers are to you a clear enemy."
Chapter 10 verse 87
"And We inspired to Moses and his brother ?Let your people leave their homes in Egypt, and let these homes be your focal point, and hold the affirmation/salat. And give good news to the believers.?
Chapter 2 verse 125
'And We have made the Sanctuary to be a model for the people and a security. And take the site of Abraham in affirmation/salat. And We had entrusted to Abraham and Ishmael ?You shall purify My Sanctuary for those who visit, those who are devoted, and for those who kneel and prostrate.?
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Salat means affirmation. You perform salat for God by praising, thanking and glorifying Him. The God does not need any physical betterment or anything concerned with our improving of service. Purification of our service is an ongoing process throughout life so it is our requirement not the God's. The God has created men and JInn for service so it is the sumtotal of our lifetimes. Salat is a special way of serving God by praising Him alone. The logic i see phoenix1 behind your explantions is that you want to understand everything by logic. Can you explain by logic why the God is the First or what is the logic behind HIm to be the Eternal. You can never expect to win with athiest mathematicians and scientists by verifying the God's attributes by pure logic of whys and reasons alone. The debate would only be answered by satisfaction of our complete view of physical matter and essence of life.
peace Abrar,
Salat is different from praising God. Salat is a way for us to reach the state where we praise God.
Serving God is to do good deeds (glorify God's attributes like merciful etc). But we don't always do good, because there is bad stuff planted in our nafs (subconscious). To get rid of our bad deeds, we get rid of the bad in our nafs, and for that we need salat. salat leads to zakat (purification of the nafs).
Salat does not mean to praise or glorify God. The quran, at least to my knowledge, never says that.And God gave us our mental tools of logic and reasoning for a reason. So we can use them to find the truth.
Because the only difference between truth and falsehood is proof. There is no evidence supporting falsehood. There are plenty of signs pointing toward the truth.
Logic and reasoning and science (verification) is all we have, if we just believe anything because we want to, then we are lost. Everything can be explained using logic. If it can't be, then there needs to be at least some sort of sign pointing toward it, otherwise it would be stupid to believe in it.
Honestly, I don't know exactly what "god" is. Niether do you. So I'll stay away from trying to explain it.And I don't understand how the verses you provided show us that salat means to praise god and that we have to face mecca during salat. Care to explain?
peace