Criticism of Mecca and Kaaba
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asperin wrote
for me it seems obvious,that facing Kaaba on salat is not an innovation.i was kept from generation to generation.
2149 And from where you got out so turn your face towards the Mosque the Forbidden/Sacred , and that it is the truth (E) from your Lord, and that God (is) not with ignoring/disregarding about what you are making/doing .
in quran says,that some non believers started to make fun of muslims because they changed the qibla the opposite way...jerusalem and makkah are in both opposite sides of medina.so they changed from one to another.the first had to be the dome of rock,because makkah was a temple full of many idols at the beginning.
have the disbelievers ever acted different? -)
that believers dont follow phony ahadith doesnt mean we have do the total opposite of those who believe in them...just a thought,but its always nice to recheck din stuff for ourselves.
right on...v believe in the quran and what it says..
...wa-innahu lalhaqqu min rabbika wama Allahu bighafilin AAamma taAAmaloona! -)
peace! -)
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Kaba was build and made pilgrimage place during Abraham time.
Now, non of the scriptures or hadiths have any record of God's Messengers (Moses, David, Jesus, Solomon...) ever done the pilgrimage to Mecca.If God's messengers weren't obliged by the "holy city" and Kaaba why should we be??? And they are best example for us.
Any lawyer will get you of the hook from this aligation of criticising Mecca and Kaaba.
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Peace and greetings,
Dear Phoenix,
Yes I agree with you that salat is a state of mind in which we glorify and praise and thank the God in submission and humbleness. When we demand something from God it becomes Dua or prayer but when we glorify, praise and thank the God it becomes salat. Dua/prayer according to Quran is calling on God for some need. Salat according to Quran is praising God by Glorification and thanking. However the arabic word "Masjid" which means a place of prostration or temple is a physical structure. It is not mental imagination of somekind of feeling or else the word "Masjid" would be a mythical and imaginary place of praising God which has nothing to do with the spiritual satisfaction one gets while praising God. Such imagery has no meaning to define the overall state of mind while performing salat which is independent of any imaginary place of prostration. Place of prostration is where you devote your words of praise for the God according to Quranic words for praising the God. The physical place has to be in public for universality of the message of the God for believers so it is a physical place where you praise the God in any civilized position(not by physical bowing and kneeling) by repeating any words for praise according to Quranic words. salat can be performed at home as well. But "Masjid" or place of prostration or temple is a public sanctuary devoted for praising the God in public. All entrances of the temples/Mosques has to be in accordance with a central temple called the sacred temple/Mosque to symbolise God's House which is for the common family of believers around the world. So it is world publicity. Physical structure is just made up of stones and in no way the stones play any role in symbolising or signifying the Praise of the God, they are just physical places where people gather to collectively praise the God as a society. Do not tell me that the ink with which the Quran is written is somehow sacred. It is in fact human act of writing the Quran for convenience. The meaning displayed by the ink used in writing the Quran is sacred.
The God is the Lord of the two easts and the Lord of the two wests, so His presence is everywhere. However You cannot reject the God's command of Qibla towards Sacred mosque by saying that it is not piety to turn your face towards the east or west but it is piety to believe In the God, so Qibla is from Quran and it is the word of the God. You do not choose a Qibla by imagination but by the commands of the God given in Quran. Would it not have been simple for the God to illustrate that Qibla and mosques are imaginary. We live in a 3D world and have 360 degrees angle around us so how can you escape directions by imagination of your mind and pretend that you are facing every direction of 360 degrees. Remember the God says that no vision can grasp/sorround/comprehend Him but He surrounds every vision from all sides and directions. You cannot pinpoint the God's direction either by physical or mental means.
Chapter 17 verse 60
?Your Lord has encompassed the people.?
Chapter 6 verse 103
"The eyesight cannot reach Him, yet He can reach all eyesight; and He is the Subtle, the Expert.'
Chapter 2 verse 115
"And to God belongs the east and the west, so wherever you turn, there is God?s presence. God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable."
Chapter 2 verse 114.
'And who are more wicked than those who boycott God?s temples; so that His name not be mentioned in them; and they seek their destruction? They will not be able to enter them except in fear; they will have humiliation in this world and in the Hereafter a painful retribution. "
Chapter 22 verse 40
"The ones who were driven out of their homes without justice, except that they said ?Our Lord is God!? And if it were not for God defending the people against themselves, then many places of gathering, and markets, and affirmations, and temples where the name of God is frequently mentioned, would have been destroyed. God will give victory to those who support Him. God is Powerful, Noble."
After reading the meanings of Mosque according to context of verses It does not seem to be mere state of mind. State of mind is obviously spiritual satisfaction whenever a believer is praising the God with humbleness so too many metaphorical explanations for everything is counterproductive.
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Yes I agree with you that salat is a state of mind in which we glorify and praise and thank the God in submission and humbleness. When we demand something from God it becomes Dua or prayer but when we glorify, praise and thank the God it becomes salat. Dua/prayer according to Quran is calling on God for some need. Salat according to Quran is praising God by Glorification and thanking.
peace Abrar,
I don't believe that the salat is a mental state of mind. I believe it is a rather physical action to bring us closer to God.
And salat never means glorifying or praising or thanking God (I don't think there is any verse that says it is). salat is a way to make us better servants of God. We do that by changing our suconscious.However the arabic word "Masjid" which means a place of prostration or temple is a physical structure. It is not mental imagination of somekind of feeling or else the word "Masjid" would be a mythical and imaginary place of praising God which has nothing to do with the spiritual satisfaction one gets while praising God.
Spiritual satisfaction? you mean we observe salat and dua to feel good? I disagree.
Masjid being a physical place makes no sense. I know that I can perform salat wherever I am.
And masjid being a non physical place doesn't make it meaningless. In fact, a physical place is what is meaningless. Because we can perform our actions anywhere and anytime. We don't need a special place (with magical powers?) to do it. We don't need temples. And we certainly don't need to face those temples at any time in our lives.
Salat is done not for spiritual satisfaction, but for improving our behavior and getting closer to God.he God is the Lord of the two easts and the Lord of the two wests, so His presence is everywhere. However You cannot reject the God's command of Qibla towards Sacred mosque by saying that it is not piety to turn your face towards the east or west but it is piety to believe In the God, so Qibla is from Quran and it is the word of the God.
that is a contradiction. And you know it. God cannot say "I'm everywhere," and "piiety is not to turn to the east or west" and then say "turn that way or go to hell!". That is a contradcition and you can't escape that fact. The only way it is not a contradiction is if the qibla is not a physical direction, but a mental direction for ourselves.
Just think about it, when you want to do something, you focus on that. You keep your eye on the prize. You concentrate on your goals. That is your target. Your qibla. Facing a certain place in saudi arabia will not help you achieve your goals if your focus is not on achieving those goals.
Do you understand where I'm coming from?
If I want to type this post, I don't focus on Mecca, I focus on what I'm going to say.There is nothing "metaphorical" about this. It's just simple logic. I have found that turning toward mecca doesn't help me at all. But turning toward what I'm about to do and focus on my goals is what helps me. That is what I have verified.
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- Qad nara taqalluba wajhika fee alssama-i falanuwalliyannaka qiblatan tardaha fawalli wajhaka shatra almasjidi alharami wahaythu ma kuntum fawalloo wujoohakum shatrahu wa-inna allatheena ootoo alkitaba layaAAlamoona annahu alhaqqu min rabbihim wama Allahu bighafilin AAamma yaAAmaloona
2144 We see the shifting of your face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you "You shall set yourself towards the Restricted Temple; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it." Those who have been given the Scripture know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do.
- Waoqtuloohum haythu thaqiftumoohum waakhrijoohum min haythu akhrajookum waalfitnatu ashaddu mina alqatli wala tuqatiloohum AAinda almasjidi alharami hatta yuqatilookum feehi fa-in qatalookum faoqtuloohum kathalika jazao alkafireena
2191 And kill them wherever you find them, and expel them from where they expelled you, and know that persecution is worse than being killed. And do not fight them at the Restricted Temple unless they fight you in it; if they fight you then kill them, thus is the reward of the disbelievers.
A physical place!
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nun de plume wrote
2144. Qad nara taqalluba wajhika fee alssama-i falanuwalliyannaka qiblatan tardaha fawalli wajhaka shatra almasjidi alharami wahaythu ma kuntum fawalloo wujoohakum shatrahu wa-inna allatheena ootoo alkitaba layaAAlamoona annahu alhaqqu min rabbihim wama Allahu bighafilin AAamma yaAAmaloona2144 We see the shifting of your face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you "You shall set yourself towards the Restricted Temple; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it." Those who have been given the Scripture know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do.
- Waoqtuloohum haythu thaqiftumoohum waakhrijoohum min haythu akhrajookum waalfitnatu ashaddu mina alqatli wala tuqatiloohum AAinda almasjidi alharami hatta yuqatilookum feehi fa-in qatalookum faoqtuloohum kathalika jazao alkafireena
2191 And kill them wherever you find them, and expel them from where they expelled you, and know that persecution is worse than being killed. And do not fight them at the Restricted Temple unless they fight you in it; if they fight you then kill them, thus is the reward of the disbelievers.
A physical place!
nice work...pure and pristine...from the book of god! -)
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Salaam all,
Something else to read concerning this topic is Mekka is NOT Bakka by Muhammad Ahmed ( he also translated the quran with his daughter Samira).
I think it is well worth the read.
Salaam,
Damon. -
damon wrote
Something else to read concerning this topic is Mekka is NOT Bakka by Muhammad Ahmed ( he also translated the quran with his daughter Samira).i think phoenix1 is more concerned about the logic behind facing in a particular direction, rather than mecca/bakka issue! -)
however...i read it...a few years back!
...there is another 1 on the web...some site by some gaznavi...dont remember the exact name...but dont think he is a muslim! -)
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http//free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/name.htm
http//free-minds.org/articles/history/ayman1.htm
these are Ayman's articles I was referring to. But, as thegod said, I'm more interested in the logical aspect of it.
the fact is, and I have verified this, that turning toward an object 1000s of miles away does not help me do anything. And my attitude or personality don't change when I move from home to some temple. It's always the same. So the conclusion is that directions or locations don't matter.
This is the logical and scientific conclusion. If the quran conforms to logic and science, then the quran should agree with it.
anyone have an argument against this? -
nun de plume wrote
2144. Qad nara taqalluba wajhika fee alssama-i falanuwalliyannaka qiblatan tardaha fawalli wajhaka shatra almasjidi alharami wahaythu ma kuntum fawalloo wujoohakum shatrahu wa-inna allatheena ootoo alkitaba layaAAlamoona annahu alhaqqu min rabbihim wama Allahu bighafilin AAamma yaAAmaloona...
2191 And kill them wherever you find them, and expel them from where they expelled you, and know that persecution is worse than being killed. And do not fight them at the Restricted Temple unless they fight you in it; if they fight you then kill them, thus is the reward of the disbelievers.
A physical place!
the usage of the word in the verses does establish that it is a physical place...
...and "almasjidalharam" is an appelation given to the specific mosque, in the direction of which, v are required to face! -)
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phoenix1 wrote
the fact is, and I have verified this, that turning toward an object 1000s of miles away does not help me do anything. And my attitude or personality don't change when I move from home to some temple. It's always the same. So the conclusion is that directions or locations don't matter.
This is the logical and scientific conclusion. If the quran conforms to logic and science, then the quran should agree with it.
anyone have an argument against this?to be honest i myself dont understand much! -)
...i mean i dont see why god created us...and i am being honest..i dont see the logic behind it! -)
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Peace to all,
The god, even if you dont have all the answers and you dont understand why God created us and cant see the logic of it, you cant deny that he created you can you, do you deny that you are even here on earth, if you cant deny your creation then maybe you should just accept that you are here for something, maybe we will never know why God created us but he did, and in the end only he knows, not even the angels knew why remember, God says to them I know something you dont know, so if even the angels who were witness to creation doesnt know why then I dont think we can know why, maybe you dont see whats logical about it but your trying to figure out why God created everything but your using your creted brain to figure it out..
As far as turning towards mecca or the kabba, I do it as best I can, i dont think its clearly figured out what and where we are to turn but until it is I see nothing wrong with doing it, i would rather err on the side of caution.
Kurt
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to be honest i myself dont understand much! -)
...i mean i dont see why god created us...and i am being honest..i dont see the logic behind it! -)
peace thegod,
God created us to serve It. That is our purpose. It is for our own good to serve God. So we do it. That is the logic behind it.
I have given you a good argument against facing a black pagan cube while praying, but all you can do is give me the above which has nothing to do with what we are talking about.
And just because we don't know some answers doesn't mean we just believe whatever someone tells us.
You don't what the logic behind our creation is, so why don't you just believe that there's a blue cat sitting on your head. I can't believe how people can show such blalant disregard for 1736 to support their "faith."
God has given you your head for a reason. Use it (not literally). -
Dear Phoenix1,
Salat means affirmation. You perform salat for God by praising, thanking and glorifying Him. The God does not need any physical betterment or anything concerned with our improving of service. Purification of our service is an ongoing process throughout life so it is our requirement not the God's. The God has created men and JInn for service so it is the sumtotal of our lifetimes. Salat is a special way of serving God by praising Him alone. The logic i see phoenix1 behind your explantions is that you want to understand everything by logic. Can you explain by logic why the God is the First or what is the logic behind HIm to be the Eternal. You can never expect to win with athiest mathematicians and scientists by verifying the God's attributes by pure logic of whys and reasons alone. The debate would only be answered by satisfaction of our complete view of physical matter and essence of life.
Chapter 3 verse
..."and if they stand to make the affirmation/salat, they do so lazily, only to show the people; they do not remember God except very little."
Chapter 3 verse 39.
"the Angels called to him whilst he was standing making the affirmation/salat in the temple enclosure ?God gives you good tidings of John, authenticating the word from God, and a master, and steadfast, and a prophet from the upright.?'
Chapter 3 verse 101
"And if you are on the offensive in the land, then there is no harm that you shorten from the affirmation/salat, if you fear that the disbelievers will try you. The disbelievers are to you a clear enemy."
Chapter 10 verse 87
"And We inspired to Moses and his brother ?Let your people leave their homes in Egypt, and let these homes be your focal point, and hold the affirmation/salat. And give good news to the believers.?
Chapter 2 verse 125
'And We have made the Sanctuary to be a model for the people and a security. And take the site of Abraham in affirmation/salat. And We had entrusted to Abraham and Ishmael ?You shall purify My Sanctuary for those who visit, those who are devoted, and for those who kneel and prostrate.?
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Salat means affirmation. You perform salat for God by praising, thanking and glorifying Him. The God does not need any physical betterment or anything concerned with our improving of service. Purification of our service is an ongoing process throughout life so it is our requirement not the God's. The God has created men and JInn for service so it is the sumtotal of our lifetimes. Salat is a special way of serving God by praising Him alone. The logic i see phoenix1 behind your explantions is that you want to understand everything by logic. Can you explain by logic why the God is the First or what is the logic behind HIm to be the Eternal. You can never expect to win with athiest mathematicians and scientists by verifying the God's attributes by pure logic of whys and reasons alone. The debate would only be answered by satisfaction of our complete view of physical matter and essence of life.
peace Abrar,
Salat is different from praising God. Salat is a way for us to reach the state where we praise God.
Serving God is to do good deeds (glorify God's attributes like merciful etc). But we don't always do good, because there is bad stuff planted in our nafs (subconscious). To get rid of our bad deeds, we get rid of the bad in our nafs, and for that we need salat. salat leads to zakat (purification of the nafs).
Salat does not mean to praise or glorify God. The quran, at least to my knowledge, never says that.And God gave us our mental tools of logic and reasoning for a reason. So we can use them to find the truth.
Because the only difference between truth and falsehood is proof. There is no evidence supporting falsehood. There are plenty of signs pointing toward the truth.
Logic and reasoning and science (verification) is all we have, if we just believe anything because we want to, then we are lost. Everything can be explained using logic. If it can't be, then there needs to be at least some sort of sign pointing toward it, otherwise it would be stupid to believe in it.
Honestly, I don't know exactly what "god" is. Niether do you. So I'll stay away from trying to explain it.And I don't understand how the verses you provided show us that salat means to praise god and that we have to face mecca during salat. Care to explain?
peace -
And you shall not follow blindly any information of which you have no direct knowledge. (Using your faculties of perception and conception) you must verify it for yourself. In the Court of your Lord, you will be held accountable for your hearing, sight, and the faculty of reasoning.
And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the hearing, eyesight, and mind, all these you are responsible for
Or have they taken gods besides Him? Say "Bring your proof. This is a reminder of those with me and a reminder of those before me." But, most of them do not know the truth, so they turn away.
The One who initiates the creation then He returns it, and He provides for you from the sky and the land. Is there a god with God? Say "Bring your proof if you are being truthful."
proof
noun- evidence sufficient to establish a thing as true, or to produce belief in its truth.
- anything serving as such evidence What proof do you have?
- the act of testing or making trial of anything; test; trial to put a thing to the proof.
- the establishment of the truth of anything; demonstration.
truth
noun
Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation.- the true or actual state of a matter He tried to find out the truth.
- conformity with fact or reality; verity the truth of a statement.
- a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, principle, or the like mathematical truths.
verify
-verb- to prove the truth of, as by evidence or testimony; confirm; substantiate Events verified his prediction.
- to ascertain the truth or correctness of, as by examination, research, or comparison to verify a spelling.
- to act as ultimate proof or evidence of; serve to confirm.
noun
- the science that investigates the principles governing correct or reliable inference.
- a particular method of reasoning or argumentation We were unable to follow his logic.
- the system or principles of reasoning applicable to any branch of knowledge or study.
- reason or sound judgment, as in utterances or actions There wasn't much logic in her move.
- convincing forcefulness; inexorable truth or persuasiveness the irresistible logic of the facts.
reason
noun- a basis or cause, as for some belief, action, fact, event, etc. the reason for declaring war.
- a statement presented in justification or explanation of a belief or action.
- the mental powers concerned with forming conclusions, judgments, or inferences.
- sound judgment; good sense.
- normal or sound powers of mind; sanity.
- Logic. a premise of an argument.
- Philosophy.
a. the faculty or power of acquiring intellectual knowledge, either by direct understanding of first principles or by argument.
b. the power of intelligent and dispassionate thought, or of conduct influenced by such thought.
knowledge
noun- acquaintance with facts, truths, or principles, as from study or investigation; general erudition knowledge of many things.
- familiarity or conversance, as with a particular subject or branch of learning A knowledge of accounting was necessary for the job.
- acquaintance or familiarity gained by sight, experience, or report a knowledge of human nature.
- the fact or state of knowing; the perception of fact or truth; clear and certain mental apprehension.
- awareness, as of a fact or circumstance He had knowledge of her good fortune.
- something that is or may be known; information He sought knowledge of her activities.
- the body of truths or facts accumulated in the course of time.
- the sum of what is known Knowledge of the true situation is limited.
- Archaic. sexual intercourse.
know
verb (used with object)- to perceive or understand as fact or truth; to apprehend clearly and with certainty I know the situation fully.
- to have established or fixed in the mind or memory to know a poem by heart; Do you know the way to the park from here?
- to be cognizant or aware of I know it.
- be acquainted with (a thing, place, person, etc.), as by sight, experience, or report to know the mayor.
- to understand from experience or attainment (usually fol. by how before an infinitive) to know how to make gingerbread.
- to be able to distinguish, as one from another to know right from wrong.
- Archaic. to have sexual intercourse with.
verb (used without object) - to have knowledge or clear and certain perception, as of fact or truth.
- to be cognizant or aware, as of some fact, circumstance, or occurrence; have information, as about something.
noun - the fact or state of knowing; knowledge.
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Peace and greetings,
The simplest logic that come to my mind is illustarted by the following points.
- Chapter 50 verse 16
"And We have created man and We know what his soul whispers to him, and We are closer to him than his jugular vein."
Chapter 2 verse 142
"The foolish from amongst the people will Say ?What has turned them away from the focal point that they were on?? Say ?To God is the east and the west, He guides whomsoever He wishes to a straight path.?
Chapter 26 verse 28
"He said ?The Lord of the east and the west, and what is between them, if you understand.?
What I understand is that the God is everywhere and is the Lord of all directions within 360 degrees angle. But we humans can face only a single direction at a given time, so the direction does not matter. But for the convenience of all the believers around the world, they have to show that they are together and united so in order to show unity evreryone has to face a uinified directiuon. A single direction is humanly possible, which does not mean that the direction becomes holy due to its position because all directions are for the God. Someone had to decide the matter and it was the God himself who ordered direction of Qibla towards the sacred Mosque/sanctuary/temple. Why argue about it because the God is also the Lord of the direction towards the Sacred mosque. He is also the Lord of other directions as well.
- Chapter 24 verse 35-37
"God is the Light of the heavens and the Earth. The example of His light is like a concave mirror within a lamp, the lamp is within a glass, the glass is like a radiant planet, which is lit from a blessed olive tree that is neither of the east nor of the west, its oil nearly gives off light even if not touched by fire. Light upon light, God guides to His light whom He pleases. And God sets forth parables for the people, and God is aware of all things."
"36.In sanctuaries/temples/mosques/places of prostration that God has allowed to be raised and His name mentioned in them. He is glorified therein day and night.
"37.Men who are not distracted by trade or sale from the remembrance of God and holding the affirmation, and contributing towards betterment. They fear a Day when the hearts and sight will be overturned."Chapter 62 verse 9-10
"9.O you who believe, when the affirmation/salat is called to on a day of gathering, then you shall hasten towards the remembrance of God, and cease all selling. This is better for you, if you only knew."
"10.Then, once the affirmation/salat is complete, you shall disperse through the land and seek God's provisions, and remember God frequently, that you may succeed.'Chapter 4 verse 103
"103.So when you are done making the affirmation, then remember God while standing, or sitting, or on your sides; then, when you are relieved, you shall honour the affirmation. Indeed, the affirmation for the believers is a timed decree. "
The rememberance of the God is our main goal and it can be done in our hearts frequently at any time throughout the day. You know that everyone is busy earning his livelihood so there is a feeling of isolation from other human beings. Every believer is devoted to the God, but there are times when they come together as a community to collectively remember the God which not only affirms their service to the God but also gives a sense of unity. Salat is no ritual or a physical exercise for showing off the act of remembering the God but a civilized way of gathering collectively to affirm serving the God by way of rememberance. The common place reserved for such a collective gathering is the place of prostration/temple/santuary/mosque which should be free of anything that attempts to idolise the remeberance of the God in any way. I do not consider kaaba's shape, position or location to be holy. Dome of the Rock is also not holy because of its location, position, shape or stones. But there is a common ground of designing the entrance of mosques in accordance to the direction of the Sacred mosque because it is an order of the God to face Qibla. You cannot challenge why the God created satan or human. The God could have made us born in paradise and could have never asked satan to yield to adam, which made satan arrogant and an enemy to mankind. Everything is easy for the God as it is only a matter of His "be" command. The God does whatever He pleases. No one could ever Question Him as He is answerable to no one.
Chapter 85 verse 16
"Doer of what He wills.'
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Peace and greetings,
Controversy of jerusalem and mecca is best illustrated by the part 5 of layth's article of which i am pasting a section.
Mecca appears to have been a pagan center where the religion of the Nabataens (worship of Allat, Uzzah, and Manaat) flourished like other Nabataen towns. The Kaba (cube) which was used as the center of pagan rituals, is an emulation of the Kaba of Abraham which the Nabataens may have certainly come to know through the call of Abraham to the pilgrimage many centuries ago.
Points that are worth reflecting when studying the subject of Mecca include
- The mosque in Medina with 2 qiblas has been demolished and rebuilt.
The physical evidence which shows that the turning of the qibla away from Jerusalem was simply in the ?opposite? direction and not towards Mecca has been conveniently destroyed by the Saudis and a new mosque has been rebuilt with two qiblas, but with the second qibla aligned towards Mecca.
The Mosque in Medina with the two focal points (Qiblas) seen above has been re-built by the Saudi Royal Family during the last 30 or so years.
- A number of mosques built in the early days after the prophet?s death have their qiblas aligned away from Mecca and further north, closer to Jerusalem.
"According to archaeological research carried out by Creswell and Fehervari on ancient mosques in the Middle East, two floor-plans from two Umayyad mosques in Iraq, one built at the beginning of the 8th century by the governor Hajjaj in Wasit (noted by Creswell as, "the oldest mosque in Islam of which remains have come down to us" - Creswell 198941), and the other attributed to roughly the same period near Baghdad, have Qiblas (the direction which these mosques are facing) which do not face Mecca, but are oriented too far north (Creswell 1969137ff & 198940; Fehervari 196189; Crone-Cook 197723,173). The Wasit mosque is off by 33 degrees, and the Baghdad mosque is off by 30 degrees (Creswell 1969137ff; Fehervari 196189)." - http//debate.org.uk/topics/history/bib-qur/qurarch.htm
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Peace all,
Thank you Phoenix for starting this topic.
I would like to address one issue with respect to trying to justify Mecca based on the great reading. Nun de plume quoted the following passages to support Mecca. However, a closer look will reveal that the passages actually undermine the legitimacy of Mecca.
- Qad nara taqalluba wajhika fee alssama-i falanuwalliyannaka qiblatan tardaha fawalli wajhaka shatra almasjidi alharami wahaythu ma kuntum fawalloo wujoohakum shatrahu wa-inna allatheena ootoo alkitaba layaAAlamoona annahu alhaqqu min rabbihim wama Allahu bighafilin AAamma yaAAmaloona
2144 We see the shifting of your face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you "You shall set yourself towards the Restricted Temple; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it." Those who have been given the Scripture know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do.
There are several issues above that people need to pay attention to
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The word "taqalub" that is translated as "shifting" is better translated as "turning". It is an indisputable fact that trying to face something below the horizon, you are in fact facing outer space. Also, because of the turning of the earth, your direction would also be turning. This is true for ANY physical object that one tries to face. The prophet was not satisfied with such.
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The passage clearly says "wherever you may be". This is completely ignored by those who advocate Mecca or any physical "temple" to face. Can someone tell us how to face a physical place wherever we are? The passage doesn't say "face only in the mosque" or "face only on the prayer rug". It clearly says "wherever you are". Of course this is a physical impossibility.
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Another crucial part that is ignored completely by those who advocate Mecca is "Those who have been given the Scripture know it is the truth from their Lord". Can someone please tell us who are the people of the book who know anything about Mecca to be the truth? I am sure that nobody can. So is the god exaggerating? Of course not. The passage tells us exactly what "al-masjid al-7aram" (the institution of obedience) is. It is telling us in no uncertain terms that that people who were given the book know that the institution of obedience is the truth from our lord. In other words, they know that we should obey the truth from our lord. Everyone who is given the book knows this and will agree on it. They know this as they know their own children.
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Waoqtuloohum haythu thaqiftumoohum waakhrijoohum min haythu akhrajookum waalfitnatu ashaddu mina alqatli wala tuqatiloohum AAinda almasjidi alharami hatta yuqatilookum feehi fa-in qatalookum faoqtuloohum kathalika jazao alkafireena
2191 And kill them wherever you find them, and expel them from where they expelled you, and know that persecution is worse than being killed. And do not fight them at the Restricted Temple unless they fight you in it; if they fight you then kill them, thus is the reward of the disbelievers.
A physical place!
We hear similar language used in 2217 about fighting in the "deen" (obligation) and in 1101-2 about entering the "deen" (obligation). Does this mean that the "deen" (obligation) is a physical place? Of course not.
When you go to a court, you don't go there to visit the physical building of the court but you go there to get justice. It is immaterial where the court is located or if there is even a physical building. So it is the FUNCTION of the court as an INSTITUTION of justice that is important NOT the superficial physical building or its particular location. The same exact thing can be said about other institutions such as schools, government, hospitals, etc. In fact most people here are not superficial and are fairly intelligent so they regularly use such deep meanings that are not concerned primarily with the superficial physical aspect. I find it puzzling that some people think that unlike themselves, the god is not concerned with the deeper function, and is primarily concerned with the superficial physical building. Why do such people deny that the god is capable of using equally deep meaning as they use in their everyday affairs?
Peace,
Ayman