Criticism of Mecca and Kaaba
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And you shall not follow blindly any information of which you have no direct knowledge. (Using your faculties of perception and conception) you must verify it for yourself. In the Court of your Lord, you will be held accountable for your hearing, sight, and the faculty of reasoning.
And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the hearing, eyesight, and mind, all these you are responsible for
Or have they taken gods besides Him? Say "Bring your proof. This is a reminder of those with me and a reminder of those before me." But, most of them do not know the truth, so they turn away.
The One who initiates the creation then He returns it, and He provides for you from the sky and the land. Is there a god with God? Say "Bring your proof if you are being truthful."
proof
noun- evidence sufficient to establish a thing as true, or to produce belief in its truth.
- anything serving as such evidence What proof do you have?
- the act of testing or making trial of anything; test; trial to put a thing to the proof.
- the establishment of the truth of anything; demonstration.
truth
noun
Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation.- the true or actual state of a matter He tried to find out the truth.
- conformity with fact or reality; verity the truth of a statement.
- a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, principle, or the like mathematical truths.
verify
-verb- to prove the truth of, as by evidence or testimony; confirm; substantiate Events verified his prediction.
- to ascertain the truth or correctness of, as by examination, research, or comparison to verify a spelling.
- to act as ultimate proof or evidence of; serve to confirm.
noun
- the science that investigates the principles governing correct or reliable inference.
- a particular method of reasoning or argumentation We were unable to follow his logic.
- the system or principles of reasoning applicable to any branch of knowledge or study.
- reason or sound judgment, as in utterances or actions There wasn't much logic in her move.
- convincing forcefulness; inexorable truth or persuasiveness the irresistible logic of the facts.
reason
noun- a basis or cause, as for some belief, action, fact, event, etc. the reason for declaring war.
- a statement presented in justification or explanation of a belief or action.
- the mental powers concerned with forming conclusions, judgments, or inferences.
- sound judgment; good sense.
- normal or sound powers of mind; sanity.
- Logic. a premise of an argument.
- Philosophy.
a. the faculty or power of acquiring intellectual knowledge, either by direct understanding of first principles or by argument.
b. the power of intelligent and dispassionate thought, or of conduct influenced by such thought.
knowledge
noun- acquaintance with facts, truths, or principles, as from study or investigation; general erudition knowledge of many things.
- familiarity or conversance, as with a particular subject or branch of learning A knowledge of accounting was necessary for the job.
- acquaintance or familiarity gained by sight, experience, or report a knowledge of human nature.
- the fact or state of knowing; the perception of fact or truth; clear and certain mental apprehension.
- awareness, as of a fact or circumstance He had knowledge of her good fortune.
- something that is or may be known; information He sought knowledge of her activities.
- the body of truths or facts accumulated in the course of time.
- the sum of what is known Knowledge of the true situation is limited.
- Archaic. sexual intercourse.
know
verb (used with object)- to perceive or understand as fact or truth; to apprehend clearly and with certainty I know the situation fully.
- to have established or fixed in the mind or memory to know a poem by heart; Do you know the way to the park from here?
- to be cognizant or aware of I know it.
- be acquainted with (a thing, place, person, etc.), as by sight, experience, or report to know the mayor.
- to understand from experience or attainment (usually fol. by how before an infinitive) to know how to make gingerbread.
- to be able to distinguish, as one from another to know right from wrong.
- Archaic. to have sexual intercourse with.
verb (used without object) - to have knowledge or clear and certain perception, as of fact or truth.
- to be cognizant or aware, as of some fact, circumstance, or occurrence; have information, as about something.
noun - the fact or state of knowing; knowledge.
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Peace and greetings,
The simplest logic that come to my mind is illustarted by the following points.
- Chapter 50 verse 16
"And We have created man and We know what his soul whispers to him, and We are closer to him than his jugular vein."
Chapter 2 verse 142
"The foolish from amongst the people will Say ?What has turned them away from the focal point that they were on?? Say ?To God is the east and the west, He guides whomsoever He wishes to a straight path.?
Chapter 26 verse 28
"He said ?The Lord of the east and the west, and what is between them, if you understand.?
What I understand is that the God is everywhere and is the Lord of all directions within 360 degrees angle. But we humans can face only a single direction at a given time, so the direction does not matter. But for the convenience of all the believers around the world, they have to show that they are together and united so in order to show unity evreryone has to face a uinified directiuon. A single direction is humanly possible, which does not mean that the direction becomes holy due to its position because all directions are for the God. Someone had to decide the matter and it was the God himself who ordered direction of Qibla towards the sacred Mosque/sanctuary/temple. Why argue about it because the God is also the Lord of the direction towards the Sacred mosque. He is also the Lord of other directions as well.
- Chapter 24 verse 35-37
"God is the Light of the heavens and the Earth. The example of His light is like a concave mirror within a lamp, the lamp is within a glass, the glass is like a radiant planet, which is lit from a blessed olive tree that is neither of the east nor of the west, its oil nearly gives off light even if not touched by fire. Light upon light, God guides to His light whom He pleases. And God sets forth parables for the people, and God is aware of all things."
"36.In sanctuaries/temples/mosques/places of prostration that God has allowed to be raised and His name mentioned in them. He is glorified therein day and night.
"37.Men who are not distracted by trade or sale from the remembrance of God and holding the affirmation, and contributing towards betterment. They fear a Day when the hearts and sight will be overturned."Chapter 62 verse 9-10
"9.O you who believe, when the affirmation/salat is called to on a day of gathering, then you shall hasten towards the remembrance of God, and cease all selling. This is better for you, if you only knew."
"10.Then, once the affirmation/salat is complete, you shall disperse through the land and seek God's provisions, and remember God frequently, that you may succeed.'Chapter 4 verse 103
"103.So when you are done making the affirmation, then remember God while standing, or sitting, or on your sides; then, when you are relieved, you shall honour the affirmation. Indeed, the affirmation for the believers is a timed decree. "
The rememberance of the God is our main goal and it can be done in our hearts frequently at any time throughout the day. You know that everyone is busy earning his livelihood so there is a feeling of isolation from other human beings. Every believer is devoted to the God, but there are times when they come together as a community to collectively remember the God which not only affirms their service to the God but also gives a sense of unity. Salat is no ritual or a physical exercise for showing off the act of remembering the God but a civilized way of gathering collectively to affirm serving the God by way of rememberance. The common place reserved for such a collective gathering is the place of prostration/temple/santuary/mosque which should be free of anything that attempts to idolise the remeberance of the God in any way. I do not consider kaaba's shape, position or location to be holy. Dome of the Rock is also not holy because of its location, position, shape or stones. But there is a common ground of designing the entrance of mosques in accordance to the direction of the Sacred mosque because it is an order of the God to face Qibla. You cannot challenge why the God created satan or human. The God could have made us born in paradise and could have never asked satan to yield to adam, which made satan arrogant and an enemy to mankind. Everything is easy for the God as it is only a matter of His "be" command. The God does whatever He pleases. No one could ever Question Him as He is answerable to no one.
Chapter 85 verse 16
"Doer of what He wills.'
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Peace and greetings,
Controversy of jerusalem and mecca is best illustrated by the part 5 of layth's article of which i am pasting a section.
Mecca appears to have been a pagan center where the religion of the Nabataens (worship of Allat, Uzzah, and Manaat) flourished like other Nabataen towns. The Kaba (cube) which was used as the center of pagan rituals, is an emulation of the Kaba of Abraham which the Nabataens may have certainly come to know through the call of Abraham to the pilgrimage many centuries ago.
Points that are worth reflecting when studying the subject of Mecca include
- The mosque in Medina with 2 qiblas has been demolished and rebuilt.
The physical evidence which shows that the turning of the qibla away from Jerusalem was simply in the ?opposite? direction and not towards Mecca has been conveniently destroyed by the Saudis and a new mosque has been rebuilt with two qiblas, but with the second qibla aligned towards Mecca.
The Mosque in Medina with the two focal points (Qiblas) seen above has been re-built by the Saudi Royal Family during the last 30 or so years.
- A number of mosques built in the early days after the prophet?s death have their qiblas aligned away from Mecca and further north, closer to Jerusalem.
"According to archaeological research carried out by Creswell and Fehervari on ancient mosques in the Middle East, two floor-plans from two Umayyad mosques in Iraq, one built at the beginning of the 8th century by the governor Hajjaj in Wasit (noted by Creswell as, "the oldest mosque in Islam of which remains have come down to us" - Creswell 198941), and the other attributed to roughly the same period near Baghdad, have Qiblas (the direction which these mosques are facing) which do not face Mecca, but are oriented too far north (Creswell 1969137ff & 198940; Fehervari 196189; Crone-Cook 197723,173). The Wasit mosque is off by 33 degrees, and the Baghdad mosque is off by 30 degrees (Creswell 1969137ff; Fehervari 196189)." - http//debate.org.uk/topics/history/bib-qur/qurarch.htm
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Peace all,
Thank you Phoenix for starting this topic.
I would like to address one issue with respect to trying to justify Mecca based on the great reading. Nun de plume quoted the following passages to support Mecca. However, a closer look will reveal that the passages actually undermine the legitimacy of Mecca.
- Qad nara taqalluba wajhika fee alssama-i falanuwalliyannaka qiblatan tardaha fawalli wajhaka shatra almasjidi alharami wahaythu ma kuntum fawalloo wujoohakum shatrahu wa-inna allatheena ootoo alkitaba layaAAlamoona annahu alhaqqu min rabbihim wama Allahu bighafilin AAamma yaAAmaloona
2144 We see the shifting of your face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you "You shall set yourself towards the Restricted Temple; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it." Those who have been given the Scripture know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do.
There are several issues above that people need to pay attention to
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The word "taqalub" that is translated as "shifting" is better translated as "turning". It is an indisputable fact that trying to face something below the horizon, you are in fact facing outer space. Also, because of the turning of the earth, your direction would also be turning. This is true for ANY physical object that one tries to face. The prophet was not satisfied with such.
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The passage clearly says "wherever you may be". This is completely ignored by those who advocate Mecca or any physical "temple" to face. Can someone tell us how to face a physical place wherever we are? The passage doesn't say "face only in the mosque" or "face only on the prayer rug". It clearly says "wherever you are". Of course this is a physical impossibility.
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Another crucial part that is ignored completely by those who advocate Mecca is "Those who have been given the Scripture know it is the truth from their Lord". Can someone please tell us who are the people of the book who know anything about Mecca to be the truth? I am sure that nobody can. So is the god exaggerating? Of course not. The passage tells us exactly what "al-masjid al-7aram" (the institution of obedience) is. It is telling us in no uncertain terms that that people who were given the book know that the institution of obedience is the truth from our lord. In other words, they know that we should obey the truth from our lord. Everyone who is given the book knows this and will agree on it. They know this as they know their own children.
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Waoqtuloohum haythu thaqiftumoohum waakhrijoohum min haythu akhrajookum waalfitnatu ashaddu mina alqatli wala tuqatiloohum AAinda almasjidi alharami hatta yuqatilookum feehi fa-in qatalookum faoqtuloohum kathalika jazao alkafireena
2191 And kill them wherever you find them, and expel them from where they expelled you, and know that persecution is worse than being killed. And do not fight them at the Restricted Temple unless they fight you in it; if they fight you then kill them, thus is the reward of the disbelievers.
A physical place!
We hear similar language used in 2217 about fighting in the "deen" (obligation) and in 1101-2 about entering the "deen" (obligation). Does this mean that the "deen" (obligation) is a physical place? Of course not.
When you go to a court, you don't go there to visit the physical building of the court but you go there to get justice. It is immaterial where the court is located or if there is even a physical building. So it is the FUNCTION of the court as an INSTITUTION of justice that is important NOT the superficial physical building or its particular location. The same exact thing can be said about other institutions such as schools, government, hospitals, etc. In fact most people here are not superficial and are fairly intelligent so they regularly use such deep meanings that are not concerned primarily with the superficial physical aspect. I find it puzzling that some people think that unlike themselves, the god is not concerned with the deeper function, and is primarily concerned with the superficial physical building. Why do such people deny that the god is capable of using equally deep meaning as they use in their everyday affairs?
Peace,
Ayman
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phoenix1 wrote
God created us to serve It. That is our purpose. It is for our own good to serve God. So we do it. That is the logic behind it.to "serve" it? why? is god in need of service? would be some god who needs us to serve it...
and if its simply whimsical...then maybe it was being whimsical when it told us to face the restricted mosque! frown
and how do u "serve" god?
...and to top it...it made our "good" conditional upon serving it...hmmm...dont see the logic in it! -(
...are u gonna ask god why it created us to serve it? and why it has placed our good in serving it?
...or are u simply going to obey god...blindly?
I have given you a good argument against facing a black pagan cube while praying,
first according to the quran, the kaaba has immense significance! -)
834 What (plea) have they that Allah should not punish them, when they debar (His servants) from the Inviolable Place of Worship, though they are not its fitting guardians. Its fitting guardians are those only who keep their duty to Allah. But most of them know not.
835 And their worship at the (holy) House is naught but whistling and hand-clapping. Therefore (it is said unto them) Taste of the doom because ye disbelieve.
rather than the restricted temple being a pagan object...the quran makes it clear that they (the pagans) had misappropriated it!
that it is a pagan cube is ur own opinion...and that of some anti-islamic websites...
..if u can provide verses from the quran or "prove" that the kaaba is a pagan creation..do so by all means! -)
second ur argument is based on ur own experience..if somebody states a different experience..will u accept that it (facing the almasjidalharam) is "logical"?
but all you can do is give me the above which has nothing to do with what we are talking about.
if u can get an answer from god why (logic behind it) u should obey it and serve it...and find the logic behind making our good conditional upon serving it....i will do some re-thinking! -)
(speaking of nothing to do with what v are talking about...v both have problem understanding god's intentions behind something...the logic behind it! -) )
And just because we don't know some answers doesn't mean we just believe whatever someone tells us.
...however...if u simply obey god and serve it (without questioning it)...then i dont see why make an exception when god tells u to face in a particular direction...
the logic would be ur good is in it (obeying god)! -)
besides..for u it might be "someone"...for us it is god!
...and like u said...serve god! -)
You don't what the logic behind our creation is, so why don't you just believe that there's a blue cat sitting on your head.
huh? huh?
I can't believe how people can show such blalant disregard for 1736 to support their "faith."
practise...that's the key! grin
1736...what does the verse imply? -)
God has given you your head for a reason. Use it (not literally).
lolz!
2123 He cannot be questioned concerning what He does and they shall be questioned.
logic? decide for urself! -)
peace phoenix1! -)
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ironsky wrote
The god, even if you dont have all the answers and you dont understand why God created us and cant see the logic of it, you cant deny that he created you can you, do you deny that you are even here on earth, if you cant deny your creation then maybe you should just accept that you are here for something, maybe we will never know why God created us but he did, and in the end only he knows, not even the angels knew why remember, God says to them I know something you dont know, so if even the angels who were witness to creation doesnt know why then I dont think we can know why, maybe you dont see whats logical about it but your trying to figure out why God created everything but your using your creted brain to figure it out..hmmm...nice advice there!
right now the something i seem to be here for is being tongue-lashed by u! -((
but honestly...though i dont deny god...i HATE it...i think!!!!!!!
...n at times it takes me to call upon every last bleddy bit of effort to keep faith in god and it's book! damn -(
As far as turning towards mecca or the kabba, I do it as best I can, i dont think its clearly figured out what and where we are to turn but until it is I see nothing wrong with doing it, i would rather err on the side of caution.
cool! -)
peace! -)
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peace thegod -)
Say "O mankind, if you are in doubt of my system, then I do not serve those that you serve besides God. But I serve God who takes me, and I have been commanded to be of the believers."
the quran tells us that we should serve God. Why? because it is in our best interest. We will live a better life if we "serve god."and how do u "serve" god?
You serve god by doing good.
And I don't get what you mean by "made our good conditional."...or are u simply going to obey god...blindly?
Currently, I am not following an invisible all powerful being in the sky who will give me virgins when i die.
I am taking god as the quran describes god. As merciful, gracious, etc. Serving those attributes, those qualities, is serving god. I think there is more to god than that, but I don't know what that is...
So, I'm not following anything blindly. If I never find evidence of god, I will not believe in god. Because if god intended me to believe in it, then it would've given me proof, no?rather than the restricted temple being a pagan object...the quran makes it clear that they (the pagans) had misappropriated it!
that it is a pagan cube is ur own opinion...and that of some anti-islamic websites...
well, those anti islamic websites make some very good points. Do some research. Actually, ask Ayman about his article where he talks about the kaaba.
and where do those verses mention the kaaba? I didn't get it. -
phoenix1 wrote
Say "O mankind, if you are in doubt of my system, then I do not serve those that you serve besides God. But I serve God who takes me, and I have been commanded to be of the believers."that is a wrong trans...methinks...
...it cannot be "takes me"! -)
i will get back to the rest shortly...hopefully...meanwhile let us both verify the trans! -)
peace phoenix1! -)
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phoenix wrote
Say "O mankind, if you are in doubt of my system, then I do not serve those that you serve besides God. But I serve God who takes me, and I have been commanded to be of the believers."i have already commented about the translation u posted without verifying...it is a mistrans! -)
the quran tells us that we should serve God. Why? because it is in our best interest. We will live a better life if we "serve god."
You serve god by doing good.
i dont understand how ur doing good serves god!
...it maybe...as u say, in ur best interest...but how does it serve god?
can u give me an example of ur doing good and how it served god? -)
And I don't get what you mean by "made our good conditional."
u said "It is for our own good to serve God."
...so u mean it is not to our own good to not serve god...
thence conditional upon "serving" it! -)
Currently, I am not following an invisible all powerful being in the sky who will give me virgins when i die.
I am taking god as the quran describes god. As merciful, gracious, etc. Serving those attributes, those qualities, is serving god. I think there is more to god than that, but I don't know what that is......it (god) also seems to be scheming and plotting..
...how many times do v have the quran talking about it allowing those who disbelieve to thrive in their disbelief...only to seize them when they expected not!
...do u still take god as the quran describes it? -)
So, I'm not following anything blindly. If I never find evidence of god, I will not believe in god.
perhaps u have issues with the divinity of quran itself...hmmm...cool! -)
Because if god intended me to believe in it, then it would've given me proof, no?
when god intends it is a mere "be"...
...proof? what kind of proof? -)
well, those anti islamic websites make some very good points.
ofcourse...who ever called his/her own views to be founded on "very bad points"!
Do some research.
lolz!
lemme see what was the research u did...besides reading and believing what u come across at various places...among them anti-islamic sites! -)
Actually, ask Ayman about his article where he talks about the kaaba.
actually...he can speak for himself...
...if u can do the same...do so by all means! -)
and where do those verses mention the kaaba?
v were talking about facing almasjidalharam...
but u somehow started to talk about facing the "black pagan cube"...thereby giving the impression that
...either u saw them as the same thing...or related...
...or that u simply wanted to show that u get ur ideas from assumptions rather than the quran...(u are yet to show a single verse which says it is a pagan structure!) -)
I didn't get it.
52 O you who believe, do not violate the rites instituted by GOD, nor the Sacred Months, nor the animals to be offered, nor the garlands marking them, nor the people who head for the Sacred Bayt seeking blessings from their Lord and approval. Once you complete the pilgrimage, you may hunt. Do not be provoked into aggression by your hatred of people who once prevented you from going to the Sacred Masjid. You shall cooperate in matters of righteousness and piety; do not cooperate in matters that are sinful and evil. You shall observe GOD. GOD is strict in enforcing retribution.
595 O you who believe, do not kill any game during pilgrimage. Anyone who kills any game on purpose, his fine shall be a number of livestock animals that is equivalent to the game animals he killed. The judgment shall be set by two equitable people among you. They shall make sure that the offerings reach the Ka`bah. Otherwise, he may expiate by feeding poor people, or by an equivalent fast to atone for his offense. GOD has pardoned past offenses. But if anyone returns to such an offense, GOD will avenge it. GOD is Almighty, Avenger.
596 All fish of the sea are made lawful for you to eat. During pilgrimage, this may provide for you during your journey. You shall not hunt throughout the pilgrimage. You shall reverence GOD, before whom you will be summoned.
597 GOD has appointed the Ka`bah, the Sacred Bayt, to be a sanctuary for the people, and also the Sacred Months, the offerings (to the Sacred Masjid), and the garlands marking them. You should know that GOD knows everything in the heavens and the earth, and that GOD is Omniscient.
...maybe u should start reading the quran! -)
and yes...u havent explained ur understanding of 1736...
...and its relation to the mistranslation u copy-pasted! -)
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the above are khalifa's trans...i ve edited a bit..so think i ll show what i ve edited n make another (edition)
52 O you who believe, do not violate the rites instituted by GOD, nor the Sacred Months, nor the animals to be offered, nor the garlands marking them, nor the people who head for the Sacred Bayt (edit Shrine to Bayt) seeking blessings from their Lord and approval. Once you complete the pilgrimage, you may hunt. Do not be provoked into aggression by your hatred of people who once prevented you from going to the Sacred Masjid. You shall cooperate in matters of righteousness and piety; do not cooperate in matters that are sinful and evil. You shall observe GOD. GOD is strict in enforcing retribution.
595 O you who believe, do not kill any game during pilgrimage. Anyone who kills any game on purpose, his fine shall be a number of livestock animals that is equivalent to the game animals he killed. The judgment shall be set by two equitable people among you. They shall make sure that the offerings reach the Ka`bah. Otherwise, he may expiate by feeding poor people, or by an equivalent fast to atone for his offense. GOD has pardoned past offenses. But if anyone returns to such an offense, GOD will avenge it. GOD is Almighty, Avenger.
596 All fish of the sea are made lawful for you to eat. During pilgrimage, this may provide for you during your journey. You shall not hunt throughout the pilgrimage. You shall reverence GOD, before whom you will be summoned.
597 GOD has appointed the Ka`bah, the Sacred Bayt (edit asjid to Bayt), to be a sanctuary for the people, and also the Sacred Months, the offerings (edit bracket text (to the Sacred Masjid) removed), and the garlands marking them. You should know that GOD knows everything in the heavens and the earth, and that GOD is Omniscient.
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Peace and Greetings
I think that anti islamic websites are more logical than phoenix1. They have proved scientifically that there is no evidence for life after death. Hindus claim that there are seven ressurections. My Question for our logical experts is How do you scientifically prove the resurection described by Quran? What clue or evidence is there from your logical knowledge to justify resurrection by the Quran? Can't there be one 2, 3 or more resurections or possibly no resurection at all?
How do you explain from your humanly logics you feel so proud of ?
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in anycase...to simply show that the kaaba has immense significance..which was my initial design
595 O you who believe, do not kill any game during pilgrimage. Anyone who kills any game on purpose, his fine shall be a number of livestock animals that is equivalent to the game animals he killed. The judgment shall be set by two equitable people among you. They shall make sure that the offerings reach the Ka`bah. Otherwise, he may expiate by feeding poor people, or by an equivalent fast to atone for his offense. GOD has pardoned past offenses. But if anyone returns to such an offense, GOD will avenge it. GOD is Almighty, Avenger.
597 GOD has appointed the Ka`bah, the Sacred Bayt (edit Masjid to Bayt), to be a sanctuary for the people, and also the Sacred Months, the offerings (edit bracket text (to the Sacred Masjid) removed), and the garlands marking them. You should know that GOD knows everything in the heavens and the earth, and that GOD is Omniscient.
now put forth ur verse(s) to show that kaaba is a "black pagan cube"! -)
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Kaba was build and made pilgrimage place during Abraham time.
Now, non of the scriptures or hadiths have any record of God's Messengers (Moses, David, Jesus, Solomon...) ever done the pilgrimage to Mecca.If God's messengers weren't obliged by the "holy city" and Kaaba why should we be??? And they are best example for us.
Any lawyer will get you of the hook from this aligation of criticising Mecca and Kaaba.
and if Mohammad came to a people who never had a messenger before him, what was abraham doing in mecca? hollidays?
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peace
(this thread has been created because a certain someone said we shouldn't criticize Mecca and the Kaaba)
I only want to give my thoughts on this, and I just want to see the logical defence of Mecca and kaaba.
Ayman presented an argument against the "holyness" of the city of Mecca and I found it very convincing, but that's not what this post is about.
First of all, we don't need face some physical place to serve God. And we don't need to "show" our "love" (how does one love God anyway?) for God by facing Mecca.
And if you think that Mecca is just a symbol for our "unity" then that makes no sense either.
Physical structures mean nothing, piety is not to face ourselves to the east or the west, then why do we need physical places and structures?
I'll say more later. Please offer your thoughts.Salam.
When we are told in The Quran to face Mecca, we are told to be united not to worship the rock there.
Correct me if i'm wrong.
I mean, no where in The Quran are we told to worship the Ka'aba, in fact, idol-worshiping is a ticket to Hellfire, correct?Peace.
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Peace and greetings,
Those opposing central Masjid cannot prove that the God is not present in the direction of the sacred Masjid so then what they want to really prove ? They want to prove that they have a better direction than every direction where the God is present.
The God is the Lord of the great throne that encompasses the earth and the seven heavens. You can never reach the God's direction by any means whether physical or mental. The God guides towards the straight path of those whom He has blessed. The whole physical realm belongs to the God so He is everywhere, why discard Qibla due to the hatred of your logic as He is also present in that direction as well.Chapter 13
"15.And to God prostrate all who are in the heavens and the Earth, willingly and unwillingly, as do their shadows(realm of thoughts, imaginations) in the morning and the evening."
Even the blasphemous thoughts a disbeliever has about the God, their realm is also prostrating to the God the High the Supreme.
Chapter 1
1.In the name of God, the Almighty, the Merciful.
2.Praise be to God, the Lord of the worlds.
3.The Almighty, the Merciful.
4.King of the Day of Judgment.
5.You alone we serve, and You alone we seek for help.
6.Guide us to the straight path.
7.The path of those whom You have blessed, not those who have incurred the wrath, nor the misguided.Chapter 2 verse 142.
"The foolish from amongst the people will Say ?What has turned them away from the focal point that they were on?? Say ?To God is the east and the west, He guides whomsoever He wishes to a straight path.?
The real purpose is the right path which is the actual goal. Whether the God would have chosen the east, west, north or south it would cause no logical fallacy because he is present in every direction so what is so fussy if the God assinged Qibla in direction of sacred mosque. No one in the world could prove that the God is absent from the direction of the sacred mosque. In outer space direction becomes arbitrary because you go out of earth's gravitational field so the Qibla does not apply there. This is a fact that the earth is round so any point on earth could be a focal point. The gravitational effects of earth make it appear flat for those on earth. If the sacred mosque is chosen so you cannot disapprove it by applying allegations of ritualism, holiness and mysticism. You are deliberately trying to attach importance to the physical
particles of the physical structure, which is just criticising for the sake of criticising and not for the sake of logic. If you are not satisfied by explanations for unity gathering or oneness in faith then it is no use trying to explain. Today's world is just isolation, selfishness and ignorance of social interaction. People can visit the whole world through the internet but do they really know about their neighbours or the community in which they are living. Do you have any idea of community gatherings, community centres or you just really know how to think like nerds and loners only. What's the matter with such highly intellectual people. I think a tarditional sunni, shia, christian or a jew can get more love in community than such people who consider such socially isolated logics. -
peace Abrar,
I think that anti islamic websites are more logical than phoenix1. They have proved scientifically that there is no evidence for life after death. Hindus claim that there are seven ressurections. My Question for our logical experts is How do you scientifically prove the resurection described by Quran? What clue or evidence is there from your logical knowledge to justify resurrection by the Quran? Can't there be one 2, 3 or more resurections or possibly no resurection at all?
How do you explain from your humanly logics you feel so proud of ?
I have to have a reason to believe something. Currently, I have no reason to believe that we will be resurrected, maybe except holy scriptures. But that's not reason enough. Unless I have a reason to believe in resurrection, I cannot believe in it.
Our qibla should be our goals. Not some building in mecca. See, it is a FACT that it doesn't help people to look in the (supposed) direction of Mecca. It doesn't help unify people. That's hogwash. Why are all the Muslims so divided if they all face the same structure in mecca when praying?
And we can all see how much Jeruselum unites the Muslims and the Jews. How much love there is between the two because of that place. yeah right.
And relationships are built on interaction and communication. No one is interacting with anyone else while facing a cube. How does that bring people closer together?
Please show me how the unification of the people works.
and where is the actual qibla? because I know that some people think it is in Jeruselum, and they have pretty good argument.It is a verifiable fact that when we focus on our goals, we will achieve them. When we focus on the wrong things, we end up doing the wrong things. Our focus should be on the right things and we should keep it there.
It's that simple. Why do we complicate it by arguing over where the focal point is?and what is "hatred of my logic?" I'm not hating anything. I'm not using emotions to form my beliefs. On the other hand, you have an emotional attachment to Mecca and you cannot let go of it even though your eyesight, hearing, and mind disagree.
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Peace,
Dear Abrar, please read my article on the scientifc approach to the Afterlife
http//mahjoorquran.blogspot.com/2006/11/scientific-approach-of-afterlife-by.html
There are scientific theories on it that have a lot of evidence. But most atheist scientists find the concept scary, which is why they neglect it immediately without being objective.
Also the concept of Heaven and Hell is misunderstood, see
http//19.org/index.php?id=91,420,0,0,1,0
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peace thgod -)
i have already commented about the translation u posted without verifying...it is a mistrans! -)
why is it a mistrans?
i dont understand how ur doing good serves god!
We serve God by bringing it to this world. We are spreading God by doing good.
...it (god) also seems to be scheming and plotting..
...how many times do v have the quran talking about it allowing those who disbelieve to thrive in their disbelief...only to seize them when they expected not!
...do u still take god as the quran describes it?
Yes, again, that is part of the description of God. Although I don't think god would be literally scheming and plotting.
perhaps u have issues with the divinity of quran itself...hmmm...cool! -)
yes I do. But there are different variations on "divinity."
v were talking about facing almasjidalharam...
but u somehow started to talk about facing the "black pagan cube"...thereby giving the impression that
...either u saw them as the same thing...or related...
...or that u simply wanted to show that u get ur ideas from assumptions rather than the quran...(u are yet to show a single verse which says it is a pagan structure!) -)
I am talking about the black cube called "the holy kaaba." And my argument is that because god cannot possibly be living in a small cubic house in Mecca, "kaaba" and "masjid al haram" and possibly "mecca" are different things in the quran. If they aren't, then the quran cannot be believed.
My understanding of 1736 is that we should use our tools of perception and reasoning to verify our beliefs.
If I can see with my eyes that this font is black, I cannot believe that it is blue.
And if my mind tells me that 2+2=4, I cannot believe that it =5 just because a book says so. -
597 GOD has appointed the Ka`bah, the Sacred Bayt (edit asjid to Bayt), to be a sanctuary for the people, and also the Sacred Months, the offerings (edit bracket text (to the Sacred Masjid) removed), and the garlands marking them. You should know that GOD knows everything in the heavens and the earth, and that GOD is Omniscient.
If I am correct in thinking that "bayt" means "house," then are you saying that God lives in a black cubic structure in mecca?
if not, why is it called "the sacred house?" -
595 O you who believe, do not kill any game during pilgrimage. Anyone who kills any game on purpose, his fine shall be a number of livestock animals that is equivalent to the game animals he killed. The judgment shall be set by two equitable people among you. They shall make sure that the offerings reach the Ka`bah. Otherwise, he may expiate by feeding poor people, or by an equivalent fast to atone for his offense. GOD has pardoned past offenses. But if anyone returns to such an offense, GOD will avenge it. GOD is Almighty, Avenger.
597 GOD has appointed the Ka`bah, the Sacred Bayt (edit Masjid to Bayt), to be a sanctuary for the people, and also the Sacred Months, the offerings (edit bracket text (to the Sacred Masjid) removed), and the garlands marking them. You should know that GOD knows everything in the heavens and the earth, and that GOD is Omniscient.
This only demonstrates that the translator doesn't know what Ka'bah means and hence was not able to translate it. Are we supposed to revere some stones based on the opinion of those who don't even know what "ka'bah" means?
Peace,
Ayman