Laws of the Koran vs. Laws of Society
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Peace "phoenix",
Natural law is discovered through reason. Through my reasoning, I know that beating wives doesn't accomplish anything, and doesn't result in any good. I also know that 100 lashes (or even a 100 days in prison as Arnold suggests) for everyone who has irresponsible sex cannot result in any good either. We all know that.
Both these punishments are against natural law, I believe. So either the quran is saying something else, or the quran is wrong about that.JK- I agree with you totally regarding the wife beating but not with those who commit adultery. Moreover those people are not beaten alone in a room but infront of a whole people. This would instill so much shame in them that theyd never do it again. And wht c?n be easier than signing a contract of responsibility be4 having sex. We aint apes no more. We are humans and we ought to take responsibility BY LAW. Children cant be put to danger on mere lip service hence a contract which quran terms as nikkah. Those who refuse to take this responsibility have violated human rights and must be put to shame. And as i said the lashes can be interpreted as being symbolic in tht case theyd be a 100 "Boos" from the crowd or other adaptable means in units of 100. GOD Bless!
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Peace Heather,
In the Koran (434), it is believed a man is given permission to beat his wife. I'm aware that there are many sources that prove otherwise. But for the purposes of this thread and for the sake of argument, let's say that it really does give a man this right.
The word "daraba" is mistranslated in that verse. The basic meaning of "daraba" in classical arabic language is "to put forth". The exact meaning of "daraba" depends on the context of its usage and in 434 the only meaning that makes sense and fits is "separate" or "go forth", thus 434 tells the husband to separate from the wife, not to beat her. So how can we hypothetically assume something when it is in fact not what al-qur'aan says ?
Remember, God's revelations are for those who think and use their mind and reason
1024 It is such that We clarify the revelations to a people who think (yatafakkaroona).
3028 It is such that We clarify the revelations for a people who have sense (ya'aqiloona).When there could be two possible meanings of a word in a particular verse then we have to look at the context and use our mind and reason to see which meaning fits and makes sense, and then follow the best meaning
3918 The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom God has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.
3955 And follow the best of what has been sent down to you from your Lord, before the retribution comes to you suddenly when you least expect it.Please see DRB (daad-ra-ba) in PRL at the following link
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
Please see the discussion in the following link on this topic
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13171.0 (please follow the discussion to the end)
In the Koran, I believe it states that any man or woman who has committed adultery is to be "lashed" 100 times in public.
In my understanding, the qur'aan says something slightly different than what you believe.
In my understanding, the punishment of lashes is ONLY when witnessed by 4 or more people, again pointing to God wanting human sex to be private not public. Thus, under this definition, "zina" would be ANY sex witnessed by 4 or more people (pornography), and a legally married couple having sex in front of 4 or more people would incur the same punishment.
Thus for me, according to al-qur'aan, "zina" would be ANY sex witnessed by 4 or more people, and "fahisha" would include fornication and adultery which has no "human" punishment (if not witnessed by 4 or more people) but is still haram/forbidden.
"Severity" is not mentioned in the punishment verse. The punishment is a certain number of lashes and not how severe, which stresses the public naming, shaming aspect. Thus the important aspect is the PUBLIC aspect of the punishment. The lashes don't have to be severe as long as they are delivered in front of general public.
Another point is that as per al-qur'aan, marriage includes all three of the following
- Witness
- Marriage contract
- Financial component "mahr"
and permission from parents in case of a dependent woman.
ANY of these components missing would make it fornication/fahisha.
Please see a discussion on his topic at the following link
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13165.0 (please follow the discussion to its end).
In the Koran, I believe it also states that God expects us to obey the laws of our land.
God asks us to obey those in authority ONLY conditional upon them obeying the message of God.
459 O you who believe, obey God and obey the messenger and those entrusted amongst you. But if you dispute in any matter, then you shall refer it to God and His messenger if you believe in God and the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for knowing.
But how are the entrusted amongst you and the messenger are supposed to judge ?
2213 The people used to be one nation, then God sent the prophets as bearers of good news and warners, and He sent down with them the Scripture with the facts so that they may judge between the people in what they were disputing. But after receiving the clarity, the people disputed in it due to animosity between them. And God guided those who believed with His permission regarding what they disputed in of the truth. And God guides whoever He wishes to a straight path.
Thus the prophets judged between people by the facts of the Scripture.
323 Did you not see those who were given a portion of the Scripture being invited to God's Scripture to judge between them, then a group of them turns away while they are adverse?
4105 We have revealed to you the Scripture with truth that you may judge between the people by that which God has shown you, and do not be an advocate for the treacherous.
544 We have sent down the Torah, in it is guidance and a light; the prophets who have submitted judged with it for those who are Jews, as well as the Rabbis, and the Priests, for what they were entrusted of God's Scripture, and they were witness over. So do not fear the people but fear Me; and do not purchase with My revelations a cheap price. And whoever does not judge with what God has sent down, then these are the rejecters.
548 And We have sent down to you the Scripture with truth, authenticating what is present of the Scripture and superseding it. So judge between them by what God has sent down, and do not follow their desires from what has come to you of the truth. For each of you We have made laws, and a structure; and had God willed, He would have made you all one nation, but He tests you with what He has given you; so strive to do good. To God you will return all of you, and He will inform you regarding that in which you dispute.
549 And judge between them by what God has sent down, and do not follow their wishes, and beware lest they divert you away from some of what God has sent down to you. If they turn away, then know that God wants to inflict them with some of their sins; and most of the people are corrupt.
Hence we are supposed to obey those entrusted among us ONLY as long as they judge from the word of God. In addition to that, we cannot take the law in our own hands and start administering the punishments ourselves. Those entrusted among us (government) is supposed to administer the punishment after a fair trial and with justice, following the word of God.
458 God orders you to deliver anything you have been entrusted with to its owners. And if you judge between the people, then you shall judge with justice. It is always the best that God prescribes for you. God is Hearer, Seer.
Unfortunately, nowadays those who are entrusted among us in this land do not follow the word of God for judgment, so we are not required to obey them IF they command something that is contrary to the word of The God. Most of the regular day to day laws, rules and regulations of this land are within the limits of the word of The God, so there is no harm in following them.
So, for Muslims living in the United States, what do you think is acceptable in the eyes of God? Would beating your wife become a sin? What if it is, and she doesn't turn you in to the police? Is that a sin? How about lashing someone because they had sex before they were married? And what if that former adulterer doesn't turn you in?
Please see the above.
Beating of the wife is not allowed by The God in any circumstance, and the wife should turn the beater in to the police, and if she doesn't then I believe that is encouraging something that God has not allowed. In islam also no aggression is allowed unless it is for self defense or defense of the oppressed.
Only the government can administer lashes in the way mentioned above in my post, only after a fair trial and only if there are 4 or more witnesses to the act (so the punishment would only be for a public orgy or pornography irrespective of whether the couple having sex were married to each other or not). There is no "human" punishment for fornication or adultery without 4 or more witnesses, so how can the adulterer turn the "partner in crime" in, if there were less than 4 witnesses ? In that case it is irrelevant if the adulterer turns one in or not. The fornicators/adulterers, however, will not be able to escape the eventual punishment by God on the Last Day.
Hope that helps,
Peace
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Peace,
May i add tht four exe witnesses are only required in case of chaste WOMEN AND NOT MEN. In case of men we dont need four exewitnesses. A mere semen test would be enough to bust him and get him lashed. This is where GOD has protected the woman more than the man to balance out the other place where GOD sets two women for one man in case of finacial transactions and for giving men more physical strength in general. GOD Bless! -
Peace,
There is no such thing as 2 women for one man according to al-qur'aan, the way you are putting it. THE ACTUAL TESTIMONY WOULD STILL BE OF ONE WOMAN OF THE TWO. Please see the following for an explanation
http//free-minds.org/women/2to1.htm
The following two verses in the context of 242 prove your theory wrong, both male and female zani need 4 witnesses to be prosecuted
2412 If only when you heard it the believing men and women should have thought good of their own selves and said "This is an obvious lie!"
2413 If only they had brought four witnesses to it. If they did not have the witnesses, then these with God are the liars.244 is about punishment of FALSE ACCUSATION and not about punishment of zina. 244 does not mean that 4 witnesses are only needed for female zania, but it means that if a male accuses a female of being zania and cannot bring 4 witnesses then he gets punished by 80 lashes. A female can accuse a man too but if she cannot bring 4 witnesses then she wont get 80 lashes. That is the only difference. For punishment of zina, however, irrespective of whether it is a male or female, 4 witnesses are required.
244 And those who accuse the independent women and they do not bring forth four witnesses, then you shall lash them eighty lashes and do not ever accept their testimony. Those indeed are the evildoers.
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peace JK
(I have not read Tanveer's posts, that might affect my thoughts on this)JK- I agree with you totally regarding the wife beating but not with those who commit adultery. Moreover those people are not beaten alone in a room but infront of a whole people. This would instill so much shame in them that theyd never do it again. And wht c?n be easier than signing a contract of responsibility be4 having sex. We aint apes no more. We are humans and we ought to take responsibility BY LAW. Children cant be put to danger on mere lip service hence a contract which quran terms as nikkah. Those who refuse to take this responsibility have violated human rights and must be put to shame. And as i said the lashes can be interpreted as being symbolic in tht case theyd be a 100 "Boos" from the crowd or other adaptable means in units of 100. GOD Bless!
why should people be beaten for not signing a piece of paper before having sex?
and how will we ever know if they had sex or not?
I don't know about others, but I would have sex in a private place where I'm sure no one is watching us.
Most will be punished based on suspicion alone, which is not fair.
And if they do get caught in the act without a contract, isn't it just better to make them sign a contract after that?
What would happen if I sign a contract and my partner sleeps with other men and gets pregnant from them?
I would have to pay for a kid who is not mine. I know today we have DNA testing, so I guess that particular problem is solved. But there still could be problems when we can't find the father of the baby.
And today, I don't think we even need a contract since in many countries you have to pay child support to your biological children even if you are not married or living together with your spouse. -
Peace bro "Tanveer",
Peace,
There is no such thing as 2 women for one man according to al-qur'aan, the way you are putting it. THE ACTUAL TESTIMONY WOULD STILL BE OF ONE WOMAN OF THE TWO. Please see the following for an explanation
http//free-minds.org/women/2to1.htm
The following two verses in the context of 242 prove your theory wrong, both male and female zani need 4 witnesses to be prosecuted
2412 If only when you heard it the believing men and women should have thought good of their own selves and said "This is an obvious lie!"
2413 If only they had brought four witnesses to it. If they did not have the witnesses, then these with God are the liars.244 is about punishment of FALSE ACCUSATION and not about punishment of zina. 244 does not mean that 4 witnesses are only needed for female zania, but it means that if a male accuses a female of being zania and cannot bring 4 witnesses then he gets punished by 80 lashes. A female can accuse a man too but if she cannot bring 4 witnesses then she wont get 80 lashes. That is the only difference. For punishment of zina, however, irrespective of whether it is a male or female, 4 witnesses are required.
244 And those who accuse the independent women and they do not bring forth four witnesses, then you shall lash them eighty lashes and do not ever accept their testimony. Those indeed are the evildoers.
JK- Ok tht makes senye. You interpret 2411-13 to mean any accusation, since it doesnt refer to zina in particular. But still as you said men would be lashed 80 times if they cannot produce 4 eye witnesses for a woman while women dont if they accuse men even without witneses at all. Still a great advantage for the women id say and its good. GOD Bless!
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Peace "phoenix1",
(I have not read Tanveer's posts, that might affect my thoughts on this)why should people be beaten for not signing a piece of paper before having sex?
JK- Siging a piece of paper? Signing a "piece" OF PAPER??? Do you know what your saying? This is the most important contract of all since here wer talking abt humans health and those of the children. No big company contract can come near these vital issues so plz think be4 you write such things.
and how will we ever know if they had sex or not?
I don't know about others, but I would have sex in a private place where I'm sure no one is watching us.
Most will be punished based on suspicion alone, which is not fair.JK- Man wer not hadithis here. According to the Quran you need 4 eyeweitnneses for someone to be punished. And with todays technology one can use dna tests to easily figure it out. Theres no thing such as punishment based on suspicion so no need to bring this up.
And if they do get caught in the act without a contract, isn't it just better to make them sign a contract after that?
JK- NO since now those have been caught but what abt those which dont? See a law is there to be general. If we allow one person not to sign a contract or make him sign after being caught then this will apply to evyrbody so everyone will use this opportunity and continue to have sex until they get caught and only sign then. See how absurd this is.
What would happen if I sign a contract and my partner sleeps with other men and gets pregnant from them?
I would have to pay for a kid who is not mine. I know today we have DNA testing, so I guess that particular problem is solved. But there still could be problems when we can't find the father of the baby.JK- Your right evidence is always required and the DNA tests as well as a close observance of the child and your body(by a specialist in tht field) could rule out that problem.
And today, I don't think we even need a contract since in many countries you have to pay child support to your biological children even if you are not married or living together with your spouse.
JK- As i said tht is only one pt. There are multiple factors and also why make things difficult for the government. DNA tests are expensive and they are to be used only when necessary. This way the government will have to pay a hell lot of money in order to first find the father. and then we have the STD probs and wht not. A simple contract can easily resolve this issue and its not difficult at all. I believe we cld even use automated machines as we have ATMS where this contract could easily be signed electronically, then a tikcet is issued and thts it. Its so simple so i dont know wht the fuss is all abt. GOD Bless!
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peace JK
JK- Siging a piece of paper? Signing a "piece" OF PAPER??? Do you know what your saying? This is the most important contract of all since here wer talking abt humans health and those of the children. No big company contract can come near these vital issues so plz think be4 you write such things
come on, now. A piece of paper, no matter how important, is a piece of paper. If people forget to sign it, or make a mistake of not signing it, the best solution is to just make them sign it.
JK- Man wer not hadithis here. According to the Quran you need 4 eyeweitnneses for someone to be punished. And with todays technology one can use dna tests to easily figure it out. Theres no thing such as punishment based on suspicion so no need to bring this up.
Who has sex in front of four people!? No one will ever KNOW if two people (or more) get together, do their thing, and go back home.
JK- NO since now those have been caught but what abt those which dont? See a law is there to be general. If we allow one person not to sign a contract or make him sign after being caught then this will apply to evyrbody so everyone will use this opportunity and continue to have sex until they get caught and only sign then. See how absurd this is.
signing a contract is not hard. Most people will do it rather than risk getting in trouble with the law, or the government interfering in their personal matters.
To me, this 100 lashes thing makes absolutely no sense.
In God's law, every individual is punished by God. Not by the people unless the people are the victims. If a person has irresponsible sex, he or she will face the consquences. -
Peace "phoenix",
peace JKcome on, now. A piece of paper, no matter how important, is a piece of paper. If people forget to sign it, or make a mistake of not signing it, the best solution is to just make them sign it.
JK- Forgetting is a differen case again but then one would need to know whther it was intended and this is another difficult process. I believe a lie detector could be used on bot parties for this purpose in the future.
Who has sex in front of four people!? No one will ever KNOW if two people (or more) get together, do their thing, and go back home. signing a contract is not hard. Most people will do it rather than risk getting in trouble with the law, or the government interfering in their personal matters.
JK- Four witnesses doesnt mean that four people have to witness it at once. Can be one at one time 2nd another and so on. Moreover if a camera movie has been made by one and tht movie checked, verified and shown to the public i say now all those whove watched automatcially become eye witnesses too.
To me, this 100 lashes thing makes absolutely no sense.
In God's law, every individual is punished by God. Not by the people unless the people are the victims. If a person has irresponsible sex, he or she will face the consquences.JK- As i said the lashed could yet be interpreted as being symbolical and not severe but this is what the majority of the people in a country following Quranic Laws have to decide as they decide on other meanings/interpretations of words. In GOD's law if human rights have been violated, of which irresponsibility is a great part(know that that driving a car too fast or crossing the red light are both irresponsible acts and are punishable by law), there is legal punishment to be carried out by the society. GOD Bless!