Verification not necessary for each and every sign !!
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Salaams Tanveer,
37 He is the One who sent down to you the Scripture, from which there are governing verses; they are the essence of the Scripture; and others which are similar. As for those who have disease in their hearts, they will follow what is similar from it seeking to confuse, and seeking to derive an interpretation. But none know its interpretation except God. Those who are well founded in knowledge say "We BELIEVE in it, all is from our Lord." And none will remember except the people of understanding.
This ayah isn't talking about the sentances of the quran but about the reality in the world at large.
So what is this "mustashabiha"?
An Example-
The americans from facts new full well that there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq , but where in doubt and so were willing to link up every day (normal) events to imagined weapons of mass destruction - to proove their case, but it all fell on its face when they couldn't show their imagined weapons of mass destruction.
New Trans
37
He who sent to you the reality of which are acts absolutely clear which are basis of the reality and others (mustashabiha) not clear-embodying doubt but those in whose hearts is perversity they follow what unclear (what causes doubt) is of it seeking mischief and seeking (hidden) meaning and does not know its meaning except Allah, Those of knowledge say we believe in it all from Allah but do not heed except men of understanding.Quote
"mustashabiha" represents those similar to the truthAl-Kitaab = All that happens in a reality ? reality of a moment or a lifetime.
God Bless.
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Peace Tanveer,
If allegories are not drawn upon to gather the lessons within, then the guidance is not guidance at all. I don't believe the qur'an wastes words. Rather than limit the use of "mind, reason, logic etc" to the literal ayat, we can also apply the valuable tools God equipped us with to find the lessons within the allegories.
You emphasized... Those who are well founded in knowledge say "We BELIEVE in it, all is from our Lord."
If we take the position that we are only to believe in the allegorical at face value, then any level of knowledge would suffice to say "we believe in, it is from our Lord". Well-founded knowledge is not necessary to take things at face value.
On the contrary, imo, those who are well-founded in knowledge will have the experience and data to reflect and draw upon the lessons contained within the allegorical - hence, strengthening their own belief by understanding that none other than God could have authored the ayat that so many lessons can be drawn from. The lessons from the allegorical transfrom and morph as knowledge grows, meaning one thing at one point in one's life, and another as his/her knowledge grows. No one knows the TRUE MEANING of the allegorical, because it's rooted in the divine.
Just my two cents.
Peace,
Tay -
The important thing is to verify the BASIC CORE MESSAGE of al-qur'aan (muhkamat), and verify that the basic message has been preserved over time (159), and verify that there are no contradictions of any kind in al-qur'aan (482), thus verifying its divine origin, and then BELIEVE (as opposed to KNOW) that ALL revelations/signs contained in it are from The God, even those that we do not understand at the present time. That is why 37 says
I believe there's more, that made us reasoned it is from God
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peace
So if what Tanveer is saying is true, then for all we know the quran (at least part of it) could be a bunch of BS. Right? I mean, we aren't allowed to interpret it, or verify it, how do we know it's true?
For example, I say this"I am a messenger of God. You must not try to verify that claim because only God and I know the answer. This is the truth."
So Tanveer and Fahad, since you now believe that I am a messenger from God, I will need a few thousand dollars to spread God's message. Thank you
And I don't know why people take "signs" as synonomous to "verses." Why?
I think that the ayahs (signs) are signs of the universe/reality and not verses of a book.I think what Simple said makes most sense. But if you have to take "al kitab" as the quran in 37, then I think what Tay says is right, and it goes along with Ayman's explanation of the verse.
And this question of mine has remained unanswered for what seems like centuries
If we do not verify the quran, how do we know it's true or divine or whatever? how do we know that? -
Salam.
37 He is the One who sent down to you the Scripture, from which there are governing verses; they are the essence of the Scripture; and others which are similar. As for those who have disease in their hearts, they will follow what is similar from it seeking to confuse, and seeking to derive an interpretation. But none know its interpretation except God. Those who are well founded in knowledge say "We BELIEVE in it, all is from our Lord." And none will remember except the people of understanding.
A peson needs to pray for lots of patience and strength because satan the rejected is always after a man in order to destroy him.
We must always seek the help from The God from satan the rejected.
Peace.
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peace brother Tanveer, all,
Thus the only logical inference by combining 1736 and 37 is that WE DONT HAVE TO VERIFY (with 100 % certainty) EACH AND EVERY VERSE OF AL-QUR'AAN !!!!!
I do not understand how you came to such a conclusion. Can you clarify how you did so, citing each verse and telling us what inferences you drew then combine them (if possible).
Wakas
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In our daily live, we don't verify everything by ourselves. For example, the scientists say an atom consists of proton, electron, neutron, etc. Since I never do the experiment by myself, neither am I an expert in physics, then I can never verify such information. However, just because I cannot verify doesn't mean I reject what the scientists say.
The above illustration applies also to quran (the only difference is the information in quran is from God). I believe the verse below supports this understanding.
344 This is of the announcements relating to the unseen which We reveal to you; and you were not with them when they cast their pens (to decide) which of them should have Marium in his charge, and you were not with them when they contended one with another.
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Peace all,
Thank you for all your comments. What I stated in my post is my current understanding and I am not saying that is the absolute truth. I am merely making an effort to use my faculties and resources and discuss with others in order to improve/refine/correct/confirm/substantiate my understanding.
Brother Wakas, I am trying to further research what exactly "taqfu" means in 1736 and I cannot find the right pages of LL in PRL under the roots QFW or QFY. Perhaps that is a scanning error ?
By "verify" I mean "to prove/ascertain its truth" or "see it for ourselves". What I mean by my conclusion in the first post is that we don't have to prove the truth of each and every verse of al-qur'aan (for example the mutashabihat verses) or see it for ourselves, before believing it and accepting it as the truth from God.
1736 tells us not to uphold/follow the tracks/go after/pursue/cause to follow something of which we have no knowledge of. Once we read a verse of al-qur'aan, it gives us a certain info/knowledge, so now we can "taqfu" it further per 1736 because now we have its knowledge.
Subsequently, per 37 we try to determine whether that info/knowledge is muhkam/clear or mutashabih/allegorical/ambiguous/obscure. In my understanding, it will be muhkam if it can be verified, i.e. if we can prove its truth, or see it for ourselves, and then we can follow it KNOWING that it is the truth. If it is not possible to verify it, i.e. we cannot prove its truth or we cannot see it for ourselves, then that info/knowledge will be mutashabih, and then we just BELIEVE it and accept it as the truth from God, without having to verify it. Only God knows its truth and we should just trust God based on His testimony (4166), and accept it as the truth and believe it, which will be belief in the unseen based on God's testimony.
That is how I arrived at the conclusion that each and every verse of al-qur'aan does not have to be verified in order for it to be believed and accepted as the truth from God.
The people who are well founded in knowledge will know that the mutashabih verses cannot be verified, because they have the necessary knowledge to make such a determination, and they will believe in them and accept them as the truth from God without having been able to verify them.
As to how do we know if the info/knowledge is in fact from God, this can be verified by the lack of contradiction within the signs themselves and with the known proven facts, the historical preservation of the message, and the failure of being able to exactly duplicate God's signs with all the properties.
Eventually, however, we will be able to verify the unseen and will KNOW then. The test is to BELIEVE in the unseen in this life based on God's testimony. Thus in the afterlife we will not be believers any more, but knowers, and it will be too late for those who rejected the true signs of God and refused to accept them or believe them, just because they could not verify it.
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Peace and greetings,
If every unseen was verifiable and proven to everyone then the most stupid person to the most learned person would be in the same boat. There would be no question of faith and patience. The life of this world would no more be a test but an answer.
If eveybody could see evry unseen then everybody would obviously follow it blindly without even thinking or questioning. If George Bush could see the mighty angels and the God he would obviously be as afraid as a mouse.However the God says in the Quran that a time would come when the worldly and spiritual knowledge will reach its peak after the second punishment comes to pass on the state of Israel.
Chapter 17
- And We said after him to the Children of Israel "Dwell in the land, then, when the time of the second promise comes, We will bring you all together as a mixed crowd."
Chapter 27
76.This Quran narrates to the Children of Israel most of that which they are in dispute over.
77.And it is a guidance and mercy for the believers.
78.Your Lord decides between them by His judgment. And He is the Noble, the Knowledgeable.
79.So put your trust in God, for you are clearly on the truth.
80.You cannot make the dead hear, nor can you make the deaf hear the call when they turn their backs and flee.
81.Nor can you guide the blind from their misguidance. You can only make those who believe in Our revelations hear you, for they have submitted.
82.And when the punishment has been deserved by them, We will bring out for them a creature from the Earth, it will speak to them that the people have been unaware regarding Our revelations.91.?I have been ordered to serve the Lord of this town that He has made restricted, and to Him are all things, and I have been ordered to be of those who submit.?
92.?And that I recite the Quran.? He who is guided is guided for himself, and to he who is misguided, Say ?I am but one of the warners.?
93.Say ?Praise be to God, He will show you His signs and you will know them. And your Lord is not unaware of what you do.?Chapter 41
52.Say ?Do you see if this was from God and then you rejected it? Who is further astray than those who are in opposition??
53.We will show them Our signs in the horizons, and within themselves, until it becomes clear to them that this is the truth. Is it not enough that your Lord is witness over all things?A creature mentioned in Quran which will clarify signs of the God is also going to be released from the earth around this time. This creature is considered by orthodox jews as messiah which is going to liberate them out of current troubles but according to Quran Jews will have a chance to repent afterwards. Christians consider is as antigod or antichrist which is going to make peace around the world but Jesus will return back to earth to liberate christians from it. According to Quran this creature will logically clarify God's signs to people who were in dispute. Sunnis and shias consider it as Dajjal a one eyed monster which is a greater fantasy than even that of the christians. I think that this creature which is going to clarify God's signs to people was metioned in christian and jewish scriptures as well but over time they clouded it with fantasy tales. World is going to be revolutionised and islam will become the dominant religion/life code/system/way of life.
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Peace and greetings,
The peak of worldly knowledge and spiritual knowldge might be near. The First temple in jerusalem was destroyed aroud 586 B.C by Babylonians under Nebuchadnezzar but by 535 B.C the jews began rebuilding the temple. The babylonians were not the Servants of the God but were cruel, barabaric conquerors who briefly destroyed the Jewish temple which was rebuilt within 50 years. At this time the Torah was the official scripture so jews were in fact the right believers.
The first time according to Quran was at the time of Jesus when Roman armies aided by the devoted followers of Jesus who were the servants of the God defeated the jews in 70 A.D under Titus which is known as the destruction of the second temple in history. The armies of Titus were cruel so they slaughtered most of the Jews, destroying the temple which was not encouraged by the followers of Jesus that were servants of the God according to some historical accounts.
Jesus tried to guide jews in following verse.
"And when Jesus, son of Mary, said ?O children of Israel, I am God's messenger to you, authenticating what is present with me of the Torah and bringing good news of a messenger to come after me whose name will be ?most acclaimed.?? But when he showed them the clear proofs, they said ?This is clearly magic? " 616
General Titus defeated Jews in 70 AD who tried to kill jesus and christianity became world's dominant religion."O you who believe, be God's supporters, as Jesus the son of Mary said to his disciples ?Who are my supporters towards God?? The disciples said ?We are God's supporters.? Thus, a group from the Children of Israel believed, and another group rejected. So We supported those who believed against their enemy, and they were successful. " 6114
Christianity is currently the world's dominant. According to recent statistics only 25% of world's population is muslim and mostly are sunni shia and in future God alone Quranic Islam will become world's dominant. All other systems/life codes/religions will be exposed to the whole world in the most logically clarifying way.
"He is the One who sent His messenger with the guidance and the system of truth(religion), so that it will expose all other system (religion), even if those who set up partners dislike it." 619
A pro christian website announces this
We supporters of Israel have to take a stand and some how relay a Message to the world to get the 3RD TEMPLE REBUILT. Israel is bringing in the army from the European Union to control their borders and they should also control the TEMPLE MOUNT to give the Palestinians (Ishmael) a message. You can not try to eliminate Israel from the G-D given land they were given by G-D. Jerusalem has nothing to do with the Muslims 3RD holiest site, they just want to eliminate Israel from the face of the Earth.
We as supporters of a United Israel and Jerusalem demand the 3RD TEMPLE be built and the Muslims to quit thinking they can control what G-D gave to Israel (Isaac). Before any Peace treaty signing, Israel has to demand in the Road Map that the 3RD TEMPLE has to be rebuilt on the Temple Mount and that sacrifices to the G-D of Israel must be reinstated. Until then I would have the EU army control the Temple Mount and allow Israelis to pray on their Holy Site. Like the G-D of Israel wants for his precious people.
STAN L BOWMAN JR (Cede Of Israel Joel 3 2)
Israel and Jerusalem together forever.
Editor That agreement is going to happen. When this war, against Iran and the Jihad, is concluded, the world will begin to put on a show of worldwide religious acceptance of everyone. The show will be led by Rome, the capital Western Europe would have regrouped around.
The agreement (covenant) is specifically mentioned in the last verse of Daniel?s 9th chapter. The agreement inaugurates civilization?s last seven years. Years that the Book of Revelation discusses in detail.
Iran and the Jihad will give those who want to destroy Israel their chance to experience martyrdom, something that the Islamic world celebrates. But as this site has stated repeatedly the Jihad is very economic. There is not much market for salt in the Dead Sea but there is for the oil and gas in the Caspian - Caucasus region.
Jews are working hard to begin building their temple and have many plans that are linked to current middle eastern conflict.
It is a news article from israeltoday.com
Word from Jerusalem
Monday, March 14, 2005
Preparing for the Third Temple
?We have a deep desire to worship God in the Holy Temple again,? said Rabbi Yoseph Elboim, co-initiator of the extraordinary Temple Summit in Jerusalem. ?Three times a day we pray that God will let us worship on the holy Temple Mount again, as in Biblical times. We want to light the Menorah (candelabrum) in the Temple twice a day and burn incense to God. All these are divine commandments, and we want to prepare for them.?
About 1,000 people, among them rabbis, professors and Christians living in Israel, all pursuing the goal of erecting the Third Temple, took part in the festive dinner in Jerusalem. All the participants agreed that God will find a way to rebuild the temple.
With two mosques situated on the mount, which is Islam?s third holiest site, rebuilding the Temple seems a long way from the political reality on the ground. ?But when I see God gathering His people again after 2,000 years in the Diaspora and leading them home, the rebuilding of the Third Temple seems much closer,? said Elboim. ?How and when I don?t know; I leave it to the Almighty. We are preparing ourselves for when it happens.?
A key player in the unique Temple project is Orly Benny-Davis, an American from South Carolina who ran in last year?s senate race. A political activist, she is lobbying President George Bush to transfer the American embassy to Jerusalem as a first step.
?First, we have to realize that Jerusalem is still not accepted in the international political arena as the capital of Israel,? said Benny-Davis. ?At the same time, the Palestinians run around the world claiming that Jerusalem belongs to them.?
?The Bible says that the Holy Temple in Jerusalem will be a house of prayer for all peoples,? said Professor Hillel Weiss, who belongs to a group called Professors for a Strong Israel. Weiss told participants that ?it is our task to bring peace and love to the whole world from Jerusalem.?
The Traditional Location
The traditional view, and majority opinion amongst religious Jews today, is that the current site of the Dome of the Rock is the location of the Temple. Whereas Jewish religious leaders are emphatic that the Muslim holy sites must be destroyed to build the next Temple, there is disagreement as to whether the Altar of Sacrifice or Holy of Holies would have been located on the Rock. If the Rock is the location of the Holy of Holies, then the Temple would be built somewhat to the east to provide proper space in the back of the Temple. However, if the Rock is the location of the Altar of Sacrifice, then the Holy of Holies would be located to the west. Although there is not agreement if the Altar or Holy of Holies was located on the rock, there is unison agreement that the Dome of the Rock is the location of the Temple.
Religious Jews agree as to the location for the rebuilt Temple, and since the Dome of the Rock is identified as the location this raises questions as to what will take place in the future for the Islamic shrine. There is the possibility of moving the Muslim shrines, but according to Islamic law this would not be possible since the Arab conviction is that holy sites can never be given up and control transferred into the hands of infidels. Technically, as a result of Six-Day War, the Temple Mount is in the control of Israel. However, in light of political and religious issues, the Jews have delayed rebuilding of the Temple.
There is the possibility that climatic changes could take place in the Middle East, which would allow Israel to exercise control over the Temple Mount.
Chapter 26
197.Was it not a sign for them that the scholars of the Children of Israel knew it?
198.And had We sent it down upon some of the foreigners,
199.And he related it to them, they would not have believed in it.
200.As such, We diverted it from the hearts of the criminals.
201.They do not believe in it until they see the painful retribution.
202.So it will come to them suddenly, while they do not perceive it.
203.Then they would Say ?Can we be given more time??204.Was it not their wish that Our punishment be hastened?
205.Do you see that if We gave them luxury for years.
206.Then what they were promised came to them.
207.All they luxury they were given will not avail them.
208.And We have not destroyed any town except after having warners.Chapter 17
2.And We gave Moses the Scripture and We made it a guidance for the Children of Israel ?Do not believe in any besides Me.?
3.The progeny of those whom We carried with Noah, he was a thankful servant.
4.And We decreed to the Children of Israel in the Scripture, that you will make corruption twice on Earth, and that you will become very high and mighty.
5.So, when the promise of the first one comes to pass, We would send against you servants of Ours who are very powerful, thus they managed to breach your very homes, and this was a promise which has come to pass.
6.Then We gave back to you your independence from them, and We supplied you with wealth and children, and We made you more influential.
7.If you do good, then it will be good for you, and if you do bad, then so be it. But when the promise of the second time comes, they will make your faces filled with sorrow and they will enter the Temple as they did the first time, and they will strike down all that was raised up.I think that mecca and bekka issue is related to all this.
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peace brother Tanveer,
There was an error in the referencing of Lane's Lexicon in PRL, citing pages from volume 7 instead of 8. I have fixed it now. Thanks for highlighting this.
I understand what you are saying but in my opinion you have worded it incorrectly. It should be "certainty not necessary for each and every sign !!"
1736 simply says "do not follow what you have no knowledge of". Thus, if you wish to follow something, attain knowledge of it. Please note knowledge does not equal certainty.
37 emphasises the "ommu alkitabi" (mother/source/principle/prototype/origin* of the book). If you are going to follow something go with this clear/solid stuff (not a small point!). That does not mean dont try to verify the rest. It is saying one should realise one may not be certain about every single thing, hence "we believe in it, all is from our Lord". Verification (or attaining knowledge) is an ongoing process and is encouraged whenever one wants to follow something.
*meanings taken from PRL see Alif-Miim-Miim "ummun/umm".
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Peace all,
Just wanted to present my opinion on "verification" of each and every verse of al-qur'aan.
The Qur'aan has some verses (the mutashabihat/similar/allegorical verses) that are not possible to be verified with 100 % certainty because as per 37 ONLY The God knows their true meaning. For example, how can we verify some historical accounts with 100 % certainty like whether Jesus was crucified or not ? How can we verify with 100 % certainty whether there will be Judgment Day or not and whether there will be afterlife or not ? How can we verify with 100 % certainty whether we will be resurrected or not after death ? How can we verify with 100 % certainty about the existence of "malaika" ?
We can however "believe" in all those things as told to us by al-qur'aan, and that makes us "believers"/mumineen. If we were able to verify with 100 % certainty each and every verse of al-qur'aan then we won't be believers any more but will be "knowers" or the "knowledgable ones" (oloo al-albab). That is why al-qur'aan asks us to be believers in many places.
The important thing is to verify the BASIC CORE MESSAGE of al-qur'aan (muhkamat), and verify that the basic message has been preserved over time (159), and verify that there are no contradictions of any kind in al-qur'aan (482), thus verifying its divine origin, and then BELIEVE (as opposed to KNOW) that ALL revelations/signs contained in it are from The God, even those that we do not understand at the present time. That is why 37 says
37 He is the One who sent down to you the Scripture, from which there are governing verses; they are the essence of the Scripture; and others which are similar. As for those who have disease in their hearts, they will follow what is similar from it seeking to confuse, and seeking to derive an interpretation. But none know its interpretation except God. Those who are well founded in knowledge say "We BELIEVE in it, all is from our Lord." And none will remember except the people of understanding.
It does not say that those who are well founded in knowledge say "we KNOW it".
This belief is what will distinguish the believers from the disbelievers on the Last Day. Thus on the Last Day, we will not be questioned if we understood the mutashabihat verses or not, or if we verified them with 100 % certainty or not, but we will only be questioned if we believed in them as God's revelations. God won't punish us for not being able to fully understand or KNOW something that was not possible for us to know or understand fully due to our imperfections and limitations. We should trust the God and believe His testimony (4166).
In my understanding 1736 is asking us not to follow that of which we have no knowledge of, as opposed to not BELIEVE that which we have no knowledge of, because as per 37, ONLY those with disease in their hearts will FOLLOW the mutashabihat verses. Thus we are to follow only the muhkam verses and BELIEVE the rest of the verses being from The God.
How can we determine which are the muhkam verses ? The astonishing answer is that any verse that can be verified by mind, reason, logic etc. will be a muhkam verse !!!!!
Thus the only logical inference by combining 1736 and 37 is that WE DONT HAVE TO VERIFY (with 100 % certainty) EACH AND EVERY VERSE OF AL-QUR'AAN !!!!!
Comments please.
for the first time I agree with you 100%
Salam
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Peace brother Wakas,
Thanks for the explanation.
I understand what you are saying but in my opinion you have worded it incorrectly. It should be "certainty not necessary for each and every sign !!"
I agree. That is why I defined what I meant by "verify" ....... "to prove the truth of some matter" thereby making it a certainty.
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Peace brother Ahmed,
for the first time I agree with you 100%
o elektro
Just kidding ! handshake
I think you agreed with me twice before also ! (virgin birth of Jesus, and "Lord alone" in 1746)
I would also like to thank you for convincing me from al-qur'aan that "Akbar" is one of the names of The God. Please read the following recent thread where I tried to convince others
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13026.0
Perhaps you can add your comments to that thread ?
