Is Cherrypicking the Best Solution for Religious Problems?
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I believe it is not a secret that the major factor behind the 'in keeping with time' image of today's Christianity is because most Christians only select particular things in the Bible while ignoring other things which do not appeal to them or modern value.
So I begin to think maybe it is better for all religions to follow similar step by adopting the cherrypicking concept. You know for example in Islam I think we should just literally ignore the 'behind the time' laws such as lashes, polygamy, cutting of hands, special taxes and instead focusing on more important aspects such as charity, promotion of the Oneness of God, caring for orphans, brotherhood and many other things.
The above is just my personal opinion and I would like to hear from others.
Peace ),
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Peace Jankren,
I've been thinking along the same lines. I believe it has to do with whether one believes in the need or prescription of an islamic state based on the jurisprudence of the qur'an. I do not think it's necessary, nor even plausible. Promotion of the positives, as you expressed, I believe, is much more important, and much more likely to bring about change.
Peace,
Tay -
I believe it is not a secret that the major factor behind the 'in keeping with time' image of today's Christianity is because most Christians only select particular things in the Bible while ignoring other things which do not appeal to them or modern value.
So I begin to think maybe it is better for all religions to follow similar step by adopting the cherrypicking concept. You know for example in Islam I think we should just literally ignore the 'behind the time' laws such as lashes, polygamy, cutting of hands, special taxes and instead focusing on more important aspects such as charity, promotion of the Oneness of God, caring for orphans, brotherhood and many other things.
The above is just my personal opinion and I would like to hear from others.
Peace ),Salam.
I disagree.
To ignore some rules from The Quran and to accept some .... it's unacceptable. That's what Christians already are doing. They say they believe in One God and than Christian teenagers commit fornication and say, well, that's love.I think David Duchovny said it best as special agent Fox Mulder"Those are the rules we accepted, you either follow them or you don't!"
Peace.
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Peace jankren,
So I begin to think maybe it is better for all religions to follow similar step by adopting the cherrypicking concept. You know for example in Islam I think we should just literally ignore the 'behind the time' laws such as lashes, polygamy, cutting of hands, special taxes and instead focusing on more important aspects such as charity, promotion of the Oneness of God, caring for orphans, brotherhood and many other things.
There is no "instead of". It doesn't have to be one or the other. Those laws you mention aren't carried out by individuals. You don't just lash someone you believe commited adultery, or cut someone's hand because you found him stealing in your house... These are carried about through governance and a system already in place in the state or country. You cannot "ignore" and "cherry-pick", ottherwise why follow the system at all? ???- And those to whom We have previously given the Scripture rejoice at what has been sent down to you, but there are some of the groups that reject parts of it. Say ?I am only ordered to serve God and not join any partner with Him. To Him I pray and to Him is the return.?
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Peace Tay and Jankren,
I've been thinking along the same lines. I believe it has to do with whether one believes in the need or prescription of an islamic state based on the jurisprudence of the qur'an. I do not think it's necessary, nor even plausible.
I disagree with this line of thinking ("ignore and cherrypicking". To give examples why I disagree, let us take a look at verses below.
241 A sura that we have sent down, and we have decreed as law. We have revealed in it clear revelations, that you may take heed.
242 The adulteress and the adulterer you shall whip each of them a hundred lashes. Do not be swayed by pity from carrying out GOD's law, if you truly believe in GOD and the Last Day. And let a group of believers witness their penalty.As we can read, Allah has sent down laws for the believers to implement. In verse 242 where a law is being mentioned, Allah reminds us not to let our compassion prevent us from implementing Allah's laws. Please pay attention also to "if you truly believe in God and the Last Day".
And of course, to implement Allah's laws, it cannot be done by individuals, as zenje has said.
These are carried about through governance and a system already in place in the state or country. You cannot "ignore" and "cherry-pick", ottherwise why follow the system at all?
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I believe it is not a secret that the major factor behind the 'in keeping with time' image of today's Christianity is because most Christians only select particular things in the Bible while ignoring other things which do not appeal to them or modern value.
So I begin to think maybe it is better for all religions to follow similar step by adopting the cherrypicking concept. You know for example in Islam I think we should just literally ignore the 'behind the time' laws such as lashes, polygamy, cutting of hands, special taxes and instead focusing on more important aspects such as charity, promotion of the Oneness of God, caring for orphans, brotherhood and many other things.
The above is just my personal opinion and I would like to hear from others.
Peace ),
Yet, you it is who subdue and slay each other, commit bloody feuds and evict expel your own people from their homes supporting one another in the act of hurting the well being of the society and sowing the seeds of discord. And if they come to you in their helpless state, you demand ransom (from these poor folk for their rehabilitation). Whereas their eviction was unlawful for you in the first place! Do you wish to ACCEPT one part of the scripture and REJECT the other? And what is the reward of those who do so but disgrace in the life of this world, and on the Day of Resurrection they be turned over to the most grievous suffering! For Allah is NOT unaware of what you do.
(QXP 285)Salaam,
Damon. -
Peace all,
To be clear, here's how I see it...
Everyone talks a good game in regards to implementing God's laws and not ignoring certain parts. It's all good. But the fact remains that none of these people (you, me, or anyone else) is actually implementing these laws. So, we're already ignoring them.Why is that?
Is it because we're waiting for someone to step out of the shadows and establish the "True Islamic State"? How long should we wait?
The bottom line, imo, is we, as people, will never be capable of agreeing on a form of government to rule this future society. We can't agree on salat, zakat, hajj, ramadan, kaaba, quibla, symbolism, and the literal. If we can't agree, then we can't form the society.
Maybe that's the way it was meant to be??
This is a fairly new perspective of mine but one that's evolving. What we agree on are the basics. Perhaps, as much as we hate to admit it, those laws were not meant for us, here and now.
Peace,
Tay -
Salaam,
I actually think that the solution is much clearer than we realize. As a whole, we're just not willing, ready and able to implement it.
Here is what I think it is supposed to be step-by-step, stage-by-stage
#1 Personally, I belive that we are supposed to be one Unified community as per 2192, 2352, 4910 and Definately 2143 (this last verse is essential).
#2 I believe that we are to establish ourselves as this community by systematically coming together as per 4100, 872, 874, 875, 920, 9100, 9117, 1641, 16110, 2258, 599.
#3 After we come together, we democratically decide HOW we will implement laws amongst ourselves (such as 242) and vote upon WHO we will entrust to be the Central Authority as per 3159 and 4238.
#4 Then, it is just a matter of respecting this Central Authority as per 459.
It is not unattainable. Remember, The Mormons as well as the Amish have established this among themselves long ago and continue to live this way as we speak. We're just not willing and ready to do the same even though we should be doing so, due to our lack of trust, understanding and tolerance for one another.
Keep in mind that I brought this idea up a while back in This Thread and judging upon the reactions given in that thread lets us know how far off we are from this and how much farther we have to go to be even close to the community that the quran describes.
Hold fast to the means of access to All?h ALL TOGETHER, and DO NOT be disunited, and remember All?h's favours to you, when you were enemies one to another. He united your hearts in love so that by His grace you became brethren. And you were on the brink of a pit of fire, He saved you therefrom. Thus does All?h explain to you His Messages that you may be guided aright.
(Quran 3103, Abdul Mannan Omar trans.)Salaam,
Damon. -
Peace Damon,
You know I respect you and your viewpoint, so please be patient with me as we chug along.
You mentioned 2192...Literal That this (is) your nation, one nation, and I am your Lord, so worship Me.
Free-Minds This is your nation, one nation, and I am your Lord so serve Me.
Rashad Khalifa Your congregation is but one congregation, and I alone am your Lord; you shall worship Me alone.
Yusuf Ali Verily, this brotherhood of yours is a single brotherhood, and I am your Lord and Cherisher therefore serve Me (and no other).
Shakir Surely this Islam is your religion, one religion (only), and I am your Lord, therefore serve Me.
Pickthal Lo! this, your religion, is one religion, and I am your Lord, so worship Me.
Arberry 'Surely this community of yours is one community, and I am your Lord; so serve Me.'
George Sale Verily this your religion is one religion; and I am your Lord; wherefore serve Me.
Hilali/Khan Truly! This, your Ummah (Sharia or religion (Islamic Monotheism)) is one religion, and I am your Lord, therefore worship Me (Alone). (Tafseer Ibn Katheer)
QXP Verily, O Mankind! This community of yours is one single community, since I am the Sustainer of you all. So, serve Me alone! (2352).Is this nation/community a new group, or all of mankind?
Does God want us to seperate from the society or unite and strengthen it?
2352 is of the same message.
Now 4910...The believers are brothers; so reconcile between your brothers, and be aware of God, that you may receive mercy.
This calls for reconciliation between the mu'mineen, not establishing a seperate community, per the prior ayah - 499...
And if two parties of believers battle with each other, you shall reconcile them; but if one of them aggresses against the other, then you shall fight the one aggressing until it complies with God's command. Once it complies, then you shall reconcile the two groups with justice, and be equitable; for God loves those who are equitable.
Now 2143, isn't it discussing the common bond of the "ummah", and how it is a watcher over other people/groups? It is saying "we made you a balanced "ummah"...". Where is this "ummah" that was made? Or is it being made everyday as people come to the qur'anic message of peace?
For the sake of brevity and progress of dialogue, I will end with the following...
What have the amish and mormon communities accomplished besides cutting themselves off of society? Are they saving orphans? Are they feeding the poor? Are they pushing for peace?The world is the community we're looking for. The downtrodden span national boundaries. They all need help. The ummah is right here and right now. We are an ummah. We don't need to physically live in the same place. We just need to all be somewhere safe and free from persecution where we can, as individuals and collectively, contribute to the betterment of society.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Jankren
Your opinion brings to my mind an admonition from the quran which to my vision seems a contradition. This admonition of course is those who follow some and throw the rest behind their backs. Whether this picking and choosing is due to conformity (cultural mores), sheer ignorance, or doubt of the system I think it shows that the system is being rejected. To not follow it to the letter would probably mean one is still growing in its application or rejecting some of it. If it's the later than it is not islam.
Joe
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I think there is a difference between a system not being implemented currently and thus not put into practice or rejecting/disregarding parts of the system due to other reasons like Joe put it.
If there isn't a system in practice today that we are comfortable with completely, we have to make do with what we have. This would mean doing those things that we can do, singly and collectively as in Tay's last post. Now how one chooses to do this, put their efforts towards, is a choice that we have control over.
I, however, do not accept cherrypickins 'cause of sensibilities and reasons like it's outdated.
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I do not think the Mormons and the Amish people turn out to be good examples of religious communities.
And Im sure you know this as well bro Damon.
I think you are missing my point. My point is not whether or not the Mormons and Amish are good examples. My point is the fact that they have decided to establish their own communities based on what they feel is a Godly community. Their religious views and interpretations are irrelevent to what I was saying. I believe you know this is what I was getting at it.
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Peace Tay,
Peace all,
To be clear, here's how I see it...
Everyone talks a good game in regards to implementing God's laws and not ignoring certain parts. It's all good. But the fact remains that none of these people (you, me, or anyone else) is actually implementing these laws. So, we're already ignoring them.There is a BIG difference between believing in quran but not yet being able to implement the laws therein and ignoring & cherrypicking quran.
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Peace be with you Tay,
Is this nation/community a new group, or all of mankind?
How can it be all of mankind when we have passages in the quran Clearly drawing the line between the Believers and the Dis-Believers? For example, we can read the first 20 verses of Surah 9 to realize this.
Also, GOD makes it very clear in His Book that some people in this world are moral and righteous, while as others are immoral and wicked. So it obviously is not all of mankind because of all mankind are not believers. In fact, the majority of mankind are rejectors and disbelievers as per 6116.
Does God want us to seperate from the society or unite and strengthen it?
I believe that the verses that I have posted in my earlier post point us in the direction of being our own community in order to be a model for the rest of mankind as per 2143. We CANNOT unite with a society that has made the decision to be immoral and wicked and refuse to change and we CANNOT strengthen someone (be it one person or a whole nation or group) whom GOD has allowed to be astray due to their own arrogance and Hedonistic attitudes.
Surah 2, ayat 6. As for those who are bent upon denying (the truth), they would not believe, because it is all the same to them whether you warn them or do not warn them.
- (With the result that) All?h has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing, and on their eyes is a covering. And a mighty punishment awaits them.
There is Paradise and their is Hell. This let's us know that mankind is NOT all the same and alike, and thus totally unable to be united.
Now 4910...
The believers are brothers; so reconcile between your brothers, and be aware of God, that you may receive mercy.
This calls for reconciliation between the mu'mineen, not establishing a seperate community, per the prior ayah - 499...
Yes, it does call for reconciliation.....between the Believers, not between mankind. 499 tells us that if a group of people from among the believers wish to be transgressors, then those who are truly reverent are obligated to point them in check. Their transgression can certainly lead them to the wrong path.
And if two parties of believers battle with each other, you shall reconcile them; but if one of them aggresses against the other, then you shall fight the one aggressing until it complies with God's command. Once it complies, then you shall reconcile the two groups with justice, and be equitable; for God loves those who are equitable.
Now 2143, isn't it discussing the common bond of the "ummah", and how it is a watcher over other people/groups? It is saying "we made you a balanced "ummah"...". Where is this "ummah" that was made? Or is it being made everyday as people come to the qur'anic message of peace?
This community serves as a witness over the rest of mankind. This community cannot do such a thing if they are not in unison on essential issues. I ask you, do WE fit the description of 2143 right now as we speak? I certainly think not. We have a very long way to go before we even come close. There are passages in the quran (which I have pointed out earlier) that clearly direct us towards a governance of our own, based upon Quranic principles. This is un-ignorable.
For the sake of brevity and progress of dialogue, I will end with the following...
What have the amish and mormon communities accomplished besides cutting themselves off of society? Are they saving orphans? Are they feeding the poor? Are they pushing for peace?The world is the community we're looking for. The downtrodden span national boundaries. They all need help. The ummah is right here and right now. We are an ummah. We don't need to physically live in the same place. We just need to all be somewhere safe and free from persecution where we can, as individuals and collectively, contribute to the betterment of society.
Well, I wish to remind you as I have with Jankren that their religious views and what they do is outside of my point. My point was Only that they show a willingness to be a United Community. A United Community based upon Their beliefs and principles.
This is why I asked everyone to focus on reading 2143 very carefully. Please read your quote here and then ponder on 2143.
The bottom line for me is IF we are not to be one united community governed by Quranic principles, then parts of the quran such as 242 do indeed become problematic. So how do we react? By trying to antiquate parts of the quran and, as Jankren puts it, cherry-pick which parts we wish to follow. This is a bad reaction which is the result of improper belief to begin with. We either believe in the quran whole-heartedly or we shouldn't bother bother believing in any of it at all.
Peace Bro,
Damon. -
Peace Damon, all,
How can it be all of mankind when we have passages in the quran Clearly drawing the line between the Believers and the Dis-Believers? For example, we can read the first 20 verses of Surah 9 to realize this.
I was being general. Within every nation we have believers. They are not defined by the artificial borders that group them. 6116 is not saying the majority are rejecters, it is saying not to follow the majority because most people follow conjecture. Case in point, christianity is the world's largest religion and the majority of christians follow the conjecture known as the bible. But that does not make them rejectors since a rejector must come to know and understand the truth and then reject it. Christians should not be followed, but that doesn't make them rejectors.
This community serves as a witness over the rest of mankind. This community cannot do such a thing if they are not in unison on essential issues. I ask you, do WE fit the description of 2143 right now as we speak? I certainly think not. We have a very long way to go before we even come close.
Exactly, which is what I stated in my first post. Here we are, a tiny niche of the islamic world, spawned by free-thought and a desire to critically analyze and start from scratch, yet miles away from each other in our interpretations and understandings. Do we have a long way to go? Or are we already where we should be?
You say we are in unison on the essential issues...what are they?
If you mean hajj, salat, zakat, ramadan, etc., then I disagree.
If you mean punishment, then I disagree.
If you mean how people should be treating each other, and themselves, and the environment, then I agree. These are the essential issues per 569. Don't we already agree on the essentials? Isn't that enough to be a witness over mankind? Don't we constantly have threads leading to discussions where we address the injustices and chaos that is around us and forecoming?Do we need to agree on hajj and salat to witness social injustice?
My view is, we are already in unison in regards to what really matters. We are only missing an action protocol and that can't be that far away. But if you think what we're missing is total agreement on the details, then I'm afraid you'll be waiting forever, and this community you wish to build will be a handful of people.
There are passages in the quran (which I have pointed out earlier) that clearly direct us towards a governance of our own, based upon Quranic principles. This is un-ignorable.
Is it for the future or the past? Where I once agreed with you, I'm beginning to think these are foregone directions.
Peace brother,
Tay -
Peace Andy,
There is a BIG difference between believing in quran but not yet being able to implement the laws therein and ignoring & cherrypicking quran.
Yes there is. And my feeling is, most people lean on the idea of a future utopian society where quranic commands can be implemented, as a crutch to reconcile the inner turmoil of not following the qu'ran to the letter. This has been the escape clause, the loophole that makes us feel ok when we read the ayat that warn us of the consequences of not following God's commands. We say, "oh, that's not meant for us until we have the quranic community established, and then a just leader will implement God's laws".
Yet look at 569...
Those who believe, those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Tay,
Peace Andy,
Yes there is. And my feeling is, most people lean on the idea of a future utopian society where quranic commands can be implemented, as a crutch to reconcile the inner turmoil of not following the qu'ran to the letter.
Turmoil will always be there bro. Just because we are able to implement, say, lashing adulterers, doesn't mean there will be no adulterer in this world. Look at Iran in which stoning is implemented, zina is still there (I am not saying stoning is God's laws - I just give an example that turmoil is always there). What I disagree with you is your line of thinking that we may ignore and cherrypick quran.
This has been the escape clause, the loophole that makes us feel ok when we read the ayat that warn us of the consequences of not following God's commands. We say, "oh, that's not meant for us until we have the quranic community established, and then a just leader will implement God's laws".
For me, that means we have to work.
495 SUCH of the believers as remain passive - other than the disabled - cannot be deemed equal to those who strive hard in God's cause with their possessions and their lives God has exalted those who strive hard with their possessions and their lives far above those who remain passive. Although God has promised the ultimate good unto all , yet has God exalted those who strive hard above those who remain passive by a mighty reward -
1101 When God's victory and conquest comes.
1102 And you see mankind entering into God's system in flocks.
1103 You shall glorify your Lord's grace, and seek His forgiveness. He is the Redeemer.Yet look at 569...
Those who believe, those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
Does the verse mean we may ignore and cherrypick quran for you?
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How can it be all of mankind when we have passages in the quran Clearly drawing the line between the Believers and the Dis-Believers? For example, we can read the first 20 verses of Surah 9 to realize this.
I agree with Tay's interpretation. In addition, I think all you need to do is read the next verse...
2192 This is your nation, one nation, and I am your Lord so serve Me.
2193 And they disputed in the matter amongst themselves. Each of them will be returned to Us.is pointing back to the ... In my opinion 2193 is includes the "Dis-Believers"...
Furthermore, do we not see "Dis-Believers" living their lives? Is He not the Sustainer of them too? Indeed the world, when it boils down to it, IS a single community... that of His creation. There is no denying that!