verse 4:3 and polygamy

siki

Tanveer and sis samia
you folks did an excellent job defining "Muhsinat"and Ma malakat "emnakum"

Now could you come to the Mutta thread and throw some light on 4-24? your experience and wisdom is badly needed,,
siki

unknownuser

Peace ay, Sikandar, all,

Sis ay,

mabye it does mean marry up to four and not marry off in groups of four? god knows best!

It seems from the posts of brother Ayman and sis Samia that it can only mean "marry" in 43.

Thus the correct translation of 43 in my understanding would be

43 And if you fear that you cannot be just to the orphans, then you may marry those who have consented with you of the women (orphans' mothers) two at a time, and three at a time, and four at a time. But if you fear you will not be fair, then only one, or to whom you are committed to by oath. This is best that you do not face financial hardship.

Bro Sikandar,

Brother tanveer!in my opinion, "taking inference from Zina ayat and using it to deduce the upper limit for wives,is probably the weekest argument you have ever posted" .

That is why I earlier accepted that I am still confused about some aspects of this issue ???

It seems that the limit of having a maximum of 4 wives at a time is limited to orphans' mothers (provided the phrase "mathna wathulatha waruba3a" cannot idiomatically mean "in groups with no upper limit" in Classical Arabic), and is not a general rule because of the following two reasons

In the verses where the Prophet's wives are mentioned The God does not mention any upper limit to the number of wives he can have.
To my knowledge, there is no verse in al-qur'aan that restricts the total number of wives in general to 4.

Even in 43, it talks about marrying group of two, three, or four at a time, and does not say upto 4. Thus theoretically, a male believer can marry a group of 4 orphans' mothers at one time, and then at another time can marry a group of 2 orphans' mothers at a time, thus having a total of six wives, provided he can be fair with all of them.

We also need to determine if the phrase "mathna wathulatha waruba3a" can idiomatically mean "in groups" without a specific upper limit in Classical Arabic.

Now could you come to the Mutta thread and throw some light on 4-24? your experience and wisdom is badly needed,,

Can you please elaborate what exactly is the question about 424, because there was extensive discussion on this verse in the thread I referenced before, and perhaps the relevant posts in that thread might have already answered your question

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12031.0

siki

Dear Bro tanveer

That is a better understanding and i feel we are a step closer to the truth,

Now my question,( i posted in Muta thread which is missing now)-------

In 4-24 it is being said , that you can not istumtutukum(which is either marriage or temporay marriage as some say) with "MOhsinnat" accept, Ma -Malakat Emnakum,

if we take istumtatumm as marriage then it is being said that we cannot marry MOHSINNAT except Ma malakat emnakum,

Now lets see what God is saying in 4-25,

it says if you cannot afford to marry (yenkuhu) Mohsinnat" then marry Ma Malakut emnakum

4-24 is prohibiting a certain kind of contract with Mohsinnat , and yet 4-25 is saying if you cant afford to marry Mohsinnat then marry Ma malakat emnakum?
looks to me that God here is talking of two different kind of contracts , out of which he is banning Mohsinnat in one

in 4-24 it is istumtatum, which cannot take place with Mohsinnat but he is allowing us to do a certain contract(nikkah) with Mohsinnat by telling us that if we cannot afford to marry Mohsinnat then go for Ma Malkat emnakum or fatayat from momineen in 4-25.

if we fit in temporary marriage here, it probably makes sense for all the definitions you have worked out.
It would make sense that God is forbidding temporary marriage with committed women(married,engaged or Fatayat)and restricting Muta with only independent,free believing women, and Ma malakat emnakum,

lets sort this out,

sikandar

siki

unknownuser

Peace brother Sikandar,

It seems you have a lot of confusion which is understandable because the issue is complicated ! confused

First, please go through my reply to you in the muta thread

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13732.msg117476#msg117476

There is no temporary marriage being talked about in any of these verses.

To clarify any confusion let me define the categories of females per al-qur'aan. All females are protected according to al-qur'aan; they are either self protected females (mohsanat), or parent/guardian protected younger females (fatayat). Thus females can be divided into two categories Mohsanat and Fatayat (mohsanat are contrasted with fatayat in 425).

Mohsanat = self protected females

Fatayat = parent/guardian protected younger females (parent/guardian dependent)

Mohsanat belong to three categories

self protected independent (neither engaged nor married, includes divorced, widowed)
self protected by marriage (married females)
self protected by oath of engagement ("ma malakat aymanukum"/engaged from among the mohsanat)

When 424 mentions about "mohsanat", it includes all these 3 categories, and says that a male believer cannot marry category #1 or #2, but can only marry category #3. What it means is that to marry an independent self protected female, one has to get engaged with her first, making engagement OBLIGATORY for marriage to "mohsanat". It also means that a man cannot marry an already married woman, thus forbidding polyandry.

The "ma malakat aymanukum" being mentioned in 425 are from the "fatayat" and are NOT the "ma malakat aymanukum" mentioned in 424 which are from the "mohsanat".

Thus there are two different kinds of "ma malakat aymanukum" being mentioned in 424 and 425

424 "ma malakat aymanukum" from "mohsanat" (older females that are engaged)

425 "ma malakat aymanukum" from "fatayat" (parent/guardian protected younger females that are engaged)

Please keep the above in mind to avoid any confusion.

In 4-24 it is being said , that you can not istumtutukum(which is either marriage or temporay marriage as some say) with "MOhsinnat" accept, Ma -Malakat Emnakum,

"Istamta3tum" in 424 is the consummation of marriage after "nakah"/marriage with ANY of the women that are not one of the forbidden categories in 422-24.

if we take istumtatumm as marriage then it is being said that we cannot marry MOHSINNAT except Ma malakat emnakum,

As I said above, "istamta3tum" is not marriage, but consummation of marriage. The context of 422-24 is "those forbidden to marry". The word "except" before "ma malakat aymanukum" in 424 indicates that those "ma malakat aymanukum" are a subset of "mohsanat" from the older females (they are those mohsanat min al-nnisa that are engaged). Thus it means that a male believer cannot marry the "mohsanat" from the older females, except those mohsanat that are "ma malakat aymanukum"/engaged to him. Therefore, the only way to get married with the self protected independent older females is to get engaged to them first !

Now lets see what God is saying in 4-25,

it says if you cannot afford to marry (yenkuhu) Mohsinnat" then marry Ma Malakut emnakum

The "mohsanat al-muminat" in 425 refers to the self protected believing women, and the "ma malakat aymanukum" in 425 is from the "fatayat al-muminat" (parent/guardian protected younger believing females that are engaged to you).

Thus it means that if you cannot get engaged with one of the believing "mohsanat" for the purpose of marriage, then get engaged with one of the believing "fatayat" !

Hope that helps !! Go through my post 5 times with concentration, because this issue is a bit complicated and took me a long time to comprehend !!

Roshan

Peace

I must admit, I had always thought this verse had stated that if you have orphans which you feel you cannot deal with, then of those that are women, marry them off in groups.

I feel this verse was revealed in a time when women lived in a misogynistic society and hence had fewer opportunities. Women were probably not allowed to do much and hence marriage was important for them. Another example of this sort of society is seen in the testimony verses (if the woman errs than another can remind her - the testimony of 1 woman = 1 man, but woman is more likely to err due to her lower role in society).

I feel this is what the translation says and I also feel this is the most logical interpretation.

siki

Tanveer asalumo alakum.

I have a reasonable hope that we shall be able to improve upon the previous understanding,

I spent 10 hours to go through your posts on the issue however there is still a chance that i may be missing something,, so lets take it

To start with your understanding of word istumtatum" as consummation of marriage is wrong. In an earlier verse(4-23) God is describing consummation of marriage with a very different Arabic word twice in a row, and there is no confusion in that verse about consummation of marriage,

4-23 Forbidden for you are your mothers, and your daughters, and your sisters, and your fathers' sisters, and your mothers' sisters, and the daughters of your brother, and the daughters of your sister, and your foster mothers who suckled you, and your sisters from suckling, and the mothers of your wives, and your stepdaughters residing in your homes from your wives which you have already consummated the marriage with; if you have not consummated (Dakhultum)the marriage then there is no sin upon you; and the wives of your sons that are from your seed, and that you join between two sisters except what has already been done. God is Forgiving, Merciful.

"istumtatum" has most probably some other meanings , what is that ? could you check up?(as i don't have any such tool)

Now lets see Ma "Malkat emnakum". this literely means , what your right hand posses,,,,, or we can take it as what you have power upon what is yours, the ones under the fist and hence do not have a free choice to make an independent decision,and you decide their fate..
Meaning slave girls, or , war booty,

I do not agree with the engagement theory, it does not make sense to be a pre condition for marriage.
kindly try and put my understanding in to verses and see weather it makes sense(i am still not sure).

I agree with you regarding "Fatyat" who are young girls under the custody of fathers or gaurdians who usually do not play any role in decisions regarding their marriages and hence are kind of given away, they are rated with "ma malakat emnakum" for punishment of adultry or lewedness (half)
peace
siki

unknownuser

Peace bro Sikandar,

Thank you for your patience. This topic is a very complicated and not well understood one and takes a lot of time to understand.

To start with your understanding of word istumtatum" as consummation of marriage is wrong. In an earlier verse(4-23) God is describing consummation of marriage with a very different Arabic word twice in a row, and there is no confusion in that verse about consummation of marriage,

4-23 Forbidden for you are your mothers, and your daughters, and your sisters, and your fathers' sisters, and your mothers' sisters, and the daughters of your brother, and the daughters of your sister, and your foster mothers who suckled you, and your sisters from suckling, and the mothers of your wives, and your stepdaughters residing in your homes from your wives which you have already consummated the marriage with; if you have not consummated (Dakhultum)the marriage then there is no sin upon you; and the wives of your sons that are from your seed, and that you join between two sisters except what has already been done. God is Forgiving, Merciful.

"istumtatum" has most probably some other meanings , what is that ? could you check up?(as i don't have any such tool)

Different words have been used to mean consummation of marriage in al-qur'aan. For example

?Okdat alnikah,? Marriage?s physical bond, i.e. intercourse (See 2235, 2237)
?M(a)Ss(a)Ss? (For example 2236, 2237, 3349?)
?D(a)Kh(a)L? (For example 423,?)

"Istamta3tum" is derived from the root "Miim-Ta-Ayn" and from Lane Lexicon

Miim-Ta-Ayn = to enjoy/benefit, gift, anything useful/advantageous, goods (e.g. utensils, furniture), a commodity.

Istamta3 = He benefitted, or profited by it/had the benefit, use, or enjoyment, of it/he enjoyed it.

In the context of 424, it is translated as benefitted/profited from them or enjoyed sexual relations, thus implying consummation of marriage

Hilali/Khan .................. All others are lawful, provided you seek (them in marriage) with Mahr (bridal money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage) from your property, desiring chastity, not committing illegal sexual intercourse, so with those of whom you have enjoyed sexual relations, give them their Mahr as prescribed; but if after a Mahr is prescribed, you agree mutually (to give more), there is no sin on you. Surely, Allah is Ever AllKnowing, AllWise (424)

Free-Minds .................. and permitted for you is what is beyond this, if you are seeking with your money to be protected and not for illicit sex. As for those whom you have already had joy with them, then you shall give them their wage as an obligation. There is no sin upon you for what you agree to after the obligation. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.

Yusuf Ali ..................... Except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property,- desiring chastity, not lust, seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if, after a dower is prescribed, agree Mutually (to vary it), there is no blame on you, and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.

Shakir ........................ and lawful for you are (all women) besides those, provided that you seek (them) with your property, taking (them) in marriage not committing fornication. Then as to those whom you profit by, give them their dowries as appointed; and there is no blame on you about what you mutually agree after what is appointed; surely Allah is Knowing, Wise.

"Desiring chastity and not illegal sex" in this verse clearly means that the benefit/enjoyment is after marriage and thus "istamta3tum" can only be referring to consummation of marriage (enjoyment).

Now lets see Ma "Malkat emnakum". this literely means , what your right hand posses,,,,, or we can take it as what you have power upon what is yours, the ones under the fist and hence do not have a free choice to make an independent decision,and you decide their fate..
Meaning slave girls, or , war booty,

I do not agree with the engagement theory, it does not make sense to be a pre condition for marriage.
kindly try and put my understanding in to verses and see weather it makes sense(i am still not sure).

"Ma malakat aymanukum" cannot mean "slave girls, or war booty"; that is completely wrong. Please see the following article

http//free-minds.org/articles/quranic/malakat.htm

"Ma malakat aymanukum" means "those whom your rights (hands) possess", which is an idiomatic expression meaning "those committed to you by oath".

There are two types of family relations in al-qur'aan

?Ulu al korba? Those related to you biologically.

2 ?Ma malakat aymanukum? Those related to you by your oath.

In the case of a single man this is the oath of engagement to marry. In the case of a custodian this is the oath of adoption or financial support. Following are the list of verses where this expression occurs and the context of each occurrence

Who you made an oath to marry (43, 424, 425, 236, 3350, 3352, 7030)
Who you made an oath to adopt/take custody of (2431, 2433, 2458, 3355)
Who you made an oath to financially support in general (433, 436, 1671, 302

Thus the context determines the kind of oath.

Please read the following article for detailed explanation

http//free-minds.org/articles/quranic/malak.htm

I agree with you regarding "Fatyat" who are young girls under the custody of fathers or gaurdians who usually do not play any role in decisions regarding their marriages and hence are kind of given away

The bolded part of your quote above is incorrect. According to 425, one cannot marry the "ma malakat aymanukum" from the fatayat without permission of their parents/family/guardians, which is a very important role in decisions regarding their marriages !

425 ......................... You shall marry them with the permission of their parents and give them their dowries in kindness; to be protected, not for illicit sex or taking lovers. If they become protected, then any of them who comes with lewdness shall have half the punishment of what is for the independent women of the retribution. This is for those who fear hardship from among you. But if you are patient it is better for you, and God is Forgiver, Merciful.

Peace

siki

Dear brother tanveer
before i start my post , let me declare that i used to be a Sunni and hence would be more than happy , if Muta is proved wrong. however i fear that they could be right on this issue.

So now lets first sort out consummation of marriage ,
i checked your ayahs and here is my opinion,

2-235 is talking about announcing the intrest, or engagement to the widowed or divorced women, and God is saying that you may do that, however the ayah says that do not make the contract of marriage (nikah) till the time is over(idaat)
so here Aqda nikah is not consummation or physical bond but official contract
because most likely , God does not want to officially tie these women as wives before it is ensured that they do not carry any child from the previous husbands(legality issues)

Now lets see what 4-23 says
God is precisely using the word DAKHULTUM, which is penetration , so God is making it very clear that until and unless you have penetrated these women , their daughters could be halal for you if you divorce their mothers and like to get married to their daughters, but once you have penetrated any women , her daughters are haram for you for the life time, so here physical act of penetration is governing the issue,
so now lets see the third option of tamasu.

33-49 and 2-236 and 2-237, is very precise again, here the issue is after the bond of nikah is tied, then if you divorce them before touching them (tamasuu) you may reduce their Mehar to half. God is saying if you had some physical sexual enjoyment ( which may or may not end up into penetration,) you owe them their full appointed money, makes sense to me,

so what i deduce out of all this is , that this tamatta or tamasu is sexual enjoyment as a whole. however "dakhul " is the physical act of penetration, and a subset of "tamassu" (in your language) legality of the bond is described by the word Aqda nikah, (which is not engagement or announcement as in 2-235) which God is prohibiting in case of widows and divorcees unless their waiting period is over.

Now if you agree with me till here , we can go further on 4-24 and handle istumtatum and other definitions like Ma malakut or what could be mohsinnats?

(note, in my opion PM translations has wrongly translated tamasuu as sexual intercourse evey where, because penetration is a must to describe sexual intercourse)
peace
sikandar

Samia

Salaam all

I would like to draw to your attention the fact that "milkul yameen" are both males and females, not just females.
Another point is that all the verses of the quraan, save some exceptions, address both genders; including verses 422-25.

unknownuser

Salam bro Sikandar,

You are right that "3uqdata alnnikah" means "marriage contract", but the wording is "ta3zimoo 3uqdata alnnikah" in 2235 which means "decide/settle/resolve/fulfill/perform the marriage contract/knot" which means "consummate the marriage", and all translators have translated it as such.

"Mass" means "touch/strike/come together" and in the context of marriagem "tamassoo" is any sexual contact and includes the meaning of "coming together as in sexual intercourse", and means consummation of marriage.

You yourself are agreeing that it means sexual enjoyment as a whole and can include sexual penetration

God is saying if you had some physical sexual enjoyment ( which may or may not end up into penetration,) you owe them their full appointed money,

siki

No boy,,

i would request you to be very specific and precise in understanding the spirit of the meanings of each word,(as you have always been)
"Tazimmo aqda nikah" does not mean to consummate the marriage , but to perform , complete, tie the knot,
yousaf 2-235 nor resolve on the tie of marriage till the term prescribed is fulfilled.

shakir and do not confirm the marriage tie until the

sher ali And resolve not on marriage tie until the prescribed period reaches its end

pm And do not commit to the marriage vows until the required interim is reached in the scripture

Brother we have to see the precise difference , in correctly understanding the issue, The issue here is to tie the official or legal knot of nikah before idaat,(probably to preclude the possibilty of pregnancy and legality of the offspring) because if she turns out to be pregnant , you cannot marry her till the child is born.

In 4-23 , it is the act of penetration weather legal or illegal(see here the word NISA is used not ZauJ), with a women , when done, makes her daughters haram for you for ever they will always be your step daughters, and hence any such act or thinking would be incestuous, {if you have been intimate with a women but you have not performed the intercourse,(gone in her DAKULTUM) and you come across her daugter , you may still change your mind , leave the mother and marry the daughter}.

However same is not the criteria for sisters, once you leave one , you can go far the other one , that is why , Tajamuu( jammah) Bain ul akhtain is used, which is collecting two sisters at one time

Brother beauty of the Great reading(i luv this definition of ayman) is the accuracy and precision of the words , which does not leave any confusion.

Tazimoo Aqda tul nikah is not

as Dakhaltum and

Dakhaltum could be a part of Tamassu or may be not

Each word and its usage is precise and specific to an independent situation in a certain ayah

So now if you are with me till here , should we move forward and re evaluate different definitions of MUMINNAT MOHSINNAT FATYAT MA MALAKAT EMNAKUM, because until and unless we correctly define and understand the basics we cannot reach to the correct divine meanings , A little misunderstanding on the basics , and we encounter dead ends, which we try and bridge with flimsy/ far fetched assertions, and hence defy common sense and reasonable logic.
peace
sikandar

unknownuser

Peace bro Sikandar,

i would request you to be very specific and precise in understanding the spirit of the meanings of each word,(as you have always been)
"Tazimmo aqda nikah" does not mean to consummate the marriage , but to perform , complete, tie the knot,
yousaf 2-235 nor resolve on the tie of marriage till the term prescribed is fulfilled.

shakir and do not confirm the marriage tie until the

sher ali And resolve not on marriage tie until the prescribed period reaches its end

pm And do not commit to the marriage vows until the required interim is reached in the scripture

Brother we have to see the precise difference , in correctly understanding the issue, The issue here is to tie the official or legal knot of nikah before idaat,(probably to preclude the possibilty of pregnancy and legality of the offspring) because if she turns out to be pregnant , you cannot marry her till the child is born.

PM translation is not what you quoted but as follows

2235 ............And do not consummate the marriage until the required interim is reached in the Scripture.............

Other translations that translate as "consummate the marriage" are as follows

Pickthal And do not consummate the marriage until (the term) prescribed is run.

Hilali/Khan And do not consummate the marriage until the term prescribed is fulfilled.

I agree that we have to be precise. That is why I am saying that "ta3zimoo 3uqdata alnnikah" in 2235 does not mean "tie the marriage knot" but "confirm/resolve/settle/fulfill/perform the marriage contract". Perform, confirm, or resolve the marriage contract is not the same as tie the marriage knot.

Confirming the marriage contract implies that the contract has already been made before and is now confirmed by consummation.

Similarly resolving the marriage contract implies that the contract has already been made before and is now resolved by consummation.

Similarly performing the marriage contract implies that the contract has already been made before and is now performed by consummation.

You would be right if it had said "do not enter into the marriage contract", or "do not make the marriage contract".

I am not an expert in Arabic or Classical Arabic language, so we need to research this from Classical Arabic dictionaries like Lisan Al-Arab etc. and ask those who are expert in Classical Arabic language as to what exactly does "ta3zimoo 3uqdata alnnikah" mean in context of 2235 and also see what "ta3zimoo" means as used elsewhere in al-qur'aan.

In 4-23 , it is the act of penetration weather legal or illegal(see here the word NISA is used not ZauJ), with a women , when done, makes her daughters haram for you for ever they will always be your step daughters, and hence any such act or thinking would be incestuous, {if you have been intimate with a women but you have not performed the intercourse,(gone in her DAKULTUM) and you come across her daugter , you may still change your mind , leave the mother and marry the daughter}.

However same is not the criteria for sisters, once you leave one , you can go far the other one , that is why , Tajamuu( jammah) Bain ul akhtain is used, which is collecting two sisters at one time

Brother beauty of the Great reading(i luv this definition of ayman) is the accuracy and precision of the words , which does not leave any confusion.

Tazimoo Aqda tul nikah is not

as Dakhaltum and

Dakhaltum could be a part of Tamassu or may be not

Each word and its usage is precise and specific to an independent situation in a certain ayah

"Tamassoo" means ANY sexual contact in context of the marriage verses and includes "dakhaltum" and thus implies consummation of marriage. This is solid (reference Lanes Lexicon). Thus "dakhaltum" is a subset of "tamassoo".

siki

Tanveer
Aslamo alakum Bro,
Pm translation that i use, is same what i posted . please check here
http//www.submission.org/quran/webqt.php

Brother tanveer wrote,
Other translations that translate as "consummate the marriage" are as follows

Pickthal And do not consummate the marriage until (the term) prescribed is run.

Hilali/Khan And do not

That is exactly what i mean , some of the translators have not been careful in
translating this sentence, and i only quoted the correct ones.

Bro tanveer wrote
I am not an expert in Arabic or Classical Arabic language, so we need to research this from Classical Arabic dictionaries like Lisan Al-Arab etc. and ask those who are expert in Classical Arabic language as to what exactly does "ta3zimoo

Yes you are right ,arabic is not our mother tongue, but brother we have an advantage of urdu, in which almost 50% words of arabic are used, so i guess , you and me should be able to make out something about this "aqda tul nikah,

Brother as far as different legal languages that you have posted , i dont think there is any need to get into that since both of us are fully aware of aqda tul nikah , and we have a reasonable understanding what God wants to convey here.

The Net impression i get from your post is that you kinda agree to the understanding of these issues which i have been trying to make you understand,
So Bro, half job is done and lets move forward to different kind of women described in Quran

To start with could you please post your understanding of different kind of terminology used by creator?

peace

sikandar

siki

Salaam All

Mean while i read the two articles of Brother Ayman regarding "Ma Malkat Amnna kum or what your right hand posseses" on brother tanveer's recommendation.

I worked on all the ayats that the articles mention regarding the subject word, let me now say, THAT in my opinion BROTHER AYMAN'S INTERPRETATION/THINKING IS NOT CORRECT

As brother tanveer has derived his understanding (regarding the different kind of women in quran) from those articles so his understanding is FAULTY

"Ma Malakat EMNAKUM are the ones who are possed by the right hand , in your fist , the ones upon whom you have full control,the people who's fate you decide, to whom you are like a master, or in other words they are SLAVES, BOTH MALE AND FEMALE,"

NOT that i luv to believe in this ,( but GOd knows the reasons and wisdom) the Conventional historical understanding of the subject category is TRUE

I would not like to get into details here, however anybody feeling other wise, or still believes in brother ayman's interpretations, and likes to debate, he/she may open up a relevent new thread, i would gladly accept the challenge and we shall sort out the issue in great depths.

let me get back to the subject and reassert, that 4-24 is most probably indicating the shia practice of MUtta or temporary marriage
lets sort this out?

peace
sikandar

unknownuser

Peace bro Sikandar,

Any discussion/debate starts going down the drain when one party starts making categorically absolute statements like "what I am saying is the truth", and "what you or someone else is saying is wrong".

If you think that someone else's understanding is wrong then you need to prove that by bringing your evidences based on authentic sources instead of making absolute statements with no solid basis. Just saying that something is wrong or right does not make it so !

To clarify, I don't accept everything someone else has written as the truth unless it is supported by solid evidence and I have verified it myself, and my understanding is not blindly derived from someone else's articles. I use my own God given faculties to discover the truth and distinguish it from falsehood. As far as others' views are concerned, I try to study all the views and then follow the best ones after pondering on them and verifying them myself.

3918 The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom God has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.

I have already stated my understanding that 424 does not refer to "temporary marriage" and have already given my evidences from al-qur'aan and from Classical Arabic dictionary in some of my earlier posts. I have not found any evidence of "temporary marriage" in al-qur'aan and the word in 424 that you are basing this idea on does not even mean that. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this and leave it at that at this time.

I can say the same thing as you have said "what I am saying is the truth and your understanding is faulty", but that does not make it true and stifles any further meaningful discussion. At this time I feel that any further discussion on this topic is futile given your attitude of "I am right and you and others are wrong". If you wish you can pursue this issue further with others but I am out for now !

handshake peace

siki

Peace tanveer

Bro i am sorry if you felt that way, indeed i have not been careful in formulating my sentences.
Brother! you have worked the most on subject verses, and relevent definitions of women ,I request you to stay and help solve this riddle.

your are right i must refute in writing with proper logic and reason for every one to make up their minds. So for the time being i will keep the topic of mutta pending here and would post my refutation to brother aymans understanding of Ma malakat emnakum" in a seprarat thread .

let me reassert my stance,

1 i worked hard on "Ma Malakat emanakum" from all angles, and i am certain to a reasonable degree that brother Ayman,s understanding regarding these people may be incorrect.

2 i am still working on the terms "MOhsinnat" and "Fatayat" and am quite close to an understanding which makes sense and fits in all the relevent verses with no contradictions.

and if these pieces fit in the jig saw puzzle, then definitely there are verses in quran which advocate or point towards sexual relations with females , other than the conventional Marriage(Nikah), Mutta being one of them having a reasonable possibility.

peace
sikandar

TheBookAlone

Salaamun alaikum, I am new to the forum.

After reading the many posts regarding polygamy, and doing research on my own, I have come to understand that, according to The Book, POLYGAMY IS NOT ALLOWED. I base my understanding from the following facts

The God is very specific when using words. In the case of polygamy, four specific words have not been considered in any of the previous arguments posted and seem to have been overlooked.

In looking at all of the ayats that refer to these four particular words, which are SISTER, BROTHER, DAUGHTHER AND SON, I found that according to The Book Alone, the definition for

Sister (akhta) / Brother (akh) ? Brethrens of the Deen (be it male or female)
Daughter (bint) / Son (Ibn) ? Blood Relatives

In 1928, it reads, ?O SISTER of Aaron, thy father was not a wicked man?? In this ayat the word for sister is (akhta).

In 6612, it reads, ?And Mary, the DAUGHTER of Amran, who guarded her chastity?? In this ayat, the word for daughter is (bint).

In context, 422, reads, ?And marry not women whom your fathers married, except what has already passed (salafa). This surely is indecent and hateful; and it is an evil way.? And in 423, when the ayat reads, ??and that you should not have two sisters together, except what has already passed (salafa)?? In this ayat, the word for sisters is (akhta). These two behaviors were past practices and were indecent, hateful and evil.

My understanding from the above ayats is that when the God refers to SISTERS in 423, it is SISTERS IN THE DEEN, not BLOOD SISTERS. The universal understanding of this ayat from the posts that I read is that ?sisters? in this ayat meant BLOOD SISTERS which is a misunderstanding according to the ayats and the definitions above.

Furthermore, it is my understanding that 43 is taken out of context.

If you look at the context, (41-14), verse 1 is the opening of a warning to fear the God in all matter for which persons nominated as guardians over orphaned children and widowed women are responsible, for which they will be called to questions and give accounts.

Verse 2 makes it clear what is forbidden to practice with regard to the property of their wards.

Verse 3 has nothing to do with marriage. It refers to the guardianship of the orphaned children and the widowed orphans and how to manage and protect their financial affairs. This ayat speaks to social guidance with respect to guardianship. Given the context, nikah means contract in this verse, a social contract and not a marriage contract. The guardian could enter into a contract to take care of groups of children, if the guardians were financially able to do so, however, if they feared that they could not financially manage these groups of children, which would mean that there would be some inequity and as a result, injustices, then they were to take care of only one.

Verse 4 has nothing to do with dower, a marriage gift, (ujr, in Arabic, see 3350), which is an obligatory marriage gift (see Q.2 236-237 & 3350 ? Fa-Ra-Dha). As a result of the contractual arrangement, these truthful women were to be given a nihlah, a free gift, and if they choose, they could give back a portion, or keep the entire gift.

Verse 5 instructs the guardians not to hand over the properties to the wards in their custodial care, but feed and clothe them out of it and give them a good education.

Verse 6 instructs the guardians to supervise these orphans until they reach the age of marriage, then, if they find them sound of judgment, they are to hand over their properties to them. They are not to spend it extravagantly before the orphans grow up. A guardian who is rich should abstain from taking fees, but a poor one may consume some reasonable fees. When properties are handed over by a guardian to orphans it should be done in the presence of witnesses and let the fear of the God be enough to keep their accounts properly.

Verse 7 instructs how the shares in the property should be apportioned.

Verse 8 instructs the guardians, when the time came for the distribution of the property, whoever attended the division, at that time, even if they were not entitled to a share, the guardians were to give them something out of it and they should be treated kindly.

Verse 9 instructs those who were concerned about the future of their offspring, to make a will in clear words with the fear of the God.

Verse 10 gives clear warning about those guardians, at that time, who abused their responsibility.

Verses 11-12 begins instructions on how WE are to divide our estates.

Verses 13-14 informs us that this is the God?s guidance and whomever disobeys His guidance will be punished severely.

Moreover, in 3350, with respect to the universal understanding about the exception made for the prophet, the exception to the rule in this ayat was not that the prophet was given special permission to have more than one wife, to the contrary, he was given special permission to be exempt from paying the obligatory gift, if the believing woman decreed herself to the prophet, but the marriage gift (ujr) was made obligatory (fard) on the other believing men. This was to spare the prophet from any hardship.

In 3352, it clearly tells the prophet (and in 420 tells the believing men) about exchanging one wife for another and in 651 instructs him on divorce.

Additionally, the Book speaks of ?wives of the prophet? (3332), there is no where in the Book that says that he had them ALL AT ONE TIME. This could be understood to mean those women whom the prophet was previously married to and then divorced, the one he was presently married to and whomever he might marry in the future, if he got divorced. These are specific instruction to those women, whoever they might be.

Based on the above, this is my understand as to why polygamy is not allowed in Islam.

Your comments are appreciated.

warner

Peace be with you

Welcome to the board

Did you consider the following verse and please think of its relationship with verse 43.

4127
Yusuf Ali They ask thy instruction concerning the women. Say Allah doth instruct you about them and (remember) what hath been rehearsed unto you in the Book concerning the orphans of women to whom ye give not the portions prescribed and yet whom ye desire to marry as also concerning the children who are weak and oppressed that ye stand firm for justice to orphans. There is not a good deed which ye do but Allah is well-acquainted therewith.

Wa yastaftu_naka fin nisa_'(i), qulilla_hu yuftikum fihinn(a), wa ma_ yutla_ 'alaikum fil kita_bi fi yata_man nisa_'il la_ti la_ tu'tu_nahunna ma_ kutiba lahunna wa targabu_na an tankihu_hunna wal mustad'afina minal wilda_n(i), wa an taqu_mu_ lilyata_ma_ bil qist(i), wa ma_ taf'alu_ min khairin fa innalla_ha ka_na bihi 'alima_(n).

unknownuser

Peace TBA, all,

Welcome to the forum, TBA welcome

Sister (akhta) / Brother (akh) ? Brethrens of the Deen (be it male or female)

"Brothers" in al-qur'aan does not mean "brothers in the system/deen". Where The God mentions "brothers in the system/deen", He says so

911 If they repent, and they honor the connection, and they contribute towards betterment, then they are your brothers in the system. We explain the revelations for a people who know.

335 Name them by retaining their fathers' names. That is more just with God. But if you do not know their fathers, then, name them as your brothers in the system and your patrons. There is no sin upon you if you make a mistake in this respect; but you will be responsible for what your hearts deliberately intend. God is Forgiver, Merciful.

What about Joseph's brothers, were they not biological brothers but brothers in the system/deen (Ch. 12) ?

If "sister" means "sister in the system/deen", and "brother" means "brother in the system/deen", then ALL muslim women and ALL muslim men will have a share in every muslim's inheritance

412 ................ And if a man or a woman has no one, but has a brother or sister, then to each one of them is one sixth, but if they are more than this then they are to share in one third. All after a will is carried through or a debt, which does not cause harm. A directive from God, and God is Knowledgeable, Compassionate.

4176 They seek a ruling from you, say "God gives you the ruling for those who have no descendants. If a person passes away and has no children but has a sister, then she shall receive half of what he leaves behind. And he will inherit from her fully if she has no child. However, if he has two sisters, then they will receive two thirds of what he left behind; and if he has siblings (ikhwatan), male and female, then the male shall receive twice what the female receives." God makes clear to you that you do not stray; God is aware of all things.

If "sister" means "sister in the system/deen", then ALL muslim women are forbidden to get married with !!! How will one get married then ?

423 Forbidden for you are your mothers, and your daughters, and your sisters...................

Then "father's sisters" would mean ALL muslim women, and "mother's sisters" would mean ALL muslim women also as they are all "sisters in the system/deen", with two implications

Firstly, why mention them separately as father's sisters and mother's sisters when they are referring to the same group ?

Secondly, NO MUSLIM WOMAN would then be lawful for the Prophet to marry, because every muslim woman will be a daughter of a "sister in the system", or daughter of a "brother in the system" !!!

3350 O prophet, We have made lawful for you the wives to whom you have already given their dowries, and those who are committed to you by oath, as granted to you by God, and the daughters of your father's brothers, and the daughters of your father's sisters, and the daughters of your mother's brothers, and the daughters of your mother's sisters, of whom they have emigrated with you. Also, the believing woman who had decreed herself to the prophet, the prophet may marry her if he wishes, as a privilege given only to you and not to the believers. We have already decreed their rights in regard to their spouses and those who are committed to them by oath. This is to spare you any hardship. God is Forgiver, Merciful.

Additionally, the Book speaks of ?wives of the prophet? (3332), there is no where in the Book that says that he had them ALL AT ONE TIME. This could be understood to mean those women whom the prophet was previously married to and then divorced, the one he was presently married to and whomever he might marry in the future, if he got divorced.

The following verse clearly shows that the Prophet had more than one wife at the same time

3351 You may postpone whom you will of them, and you may receive whom you will. And whomsoever you seek of those whom you have set aside then there is no sin upon you. Such is best that they may be comforted and not grieve, and may all be pleased with what you give them. God knows what is in your hearts. God is Knowledgeable, Compassionate.

He had many wives at the same time but we don't know HOW MANY at the same time.

If the Prophet had only one wife at a time, the following verse would have said "if you ask his wife for something, ask her from behind a barrier"

3353 ..............And if you ask his wives for something, ask them from behind a barrier...................

nikah means contract in this verse, a social contract and not a marriage contract.

In 43, if it is a "social" contract, that would make the orphans and their mothers "ma malakat aymanukum"/those possessed by your oath, because in a "social" contract, one makes an oath with them to provide them financial support; but they are not "ma malakat aymanukum" as evident by the phrase "then only one OR ma malakat aymanukum" in that verse.

"Nikah" always means "marriage" in al-qur'aan. "Contract" is referred to as "3uqdat" as in "3uqdat alnnikah"/marriage contract

2237 And if you divorce them before having sexual intercourse with them, but you have already set the dowry for them; then you must give half of what you have agreed, unless they forgive or the guardian over the marriage contract (3uqdatu alnnikahi) forgives. And if you forgive, it is closer to righteousness. And do not forget the favor between you; God is Seer over what you do.

2235 ............... And do not decide/resolve/confirm the marriage contract/tie (3uqdata alnnikahi) until the required interim is reached in the Scripture. And know that God knows what is in your souls, so be aware of Him, and know that God is Forgiving, Compassionate.

The word "nikah" does not include the meaning of "contract", otherwise "3uqdata alnnikah" would mean "contract of the marriage contract" !

Following are other examples of "contract" = "3aqad"

433 And for each We have made inheritors for what was left behind by the parents and the relatives. And those whom you pledged/contracted with (3aqadat) by oath, you shall give them their portion. God is witness over all things.

51 O you who believe, honor your contracts (al3uqood)...............

589 God will not hold you for your unintentional oaths, but He will hold you for what you contracted/pledged/intended (3aqqadtumu) in the oaths ..............

TheBookAlone

Salaamun alaikum,

To Warner

Yes. My understanding of 4127 is that the Messenger has been instructed to remind the people what was already rehearsed to them (in 41-14) as to specific directives regarding the orphans of the women to whom they have not given the free gift but are contemplating entering into a social contract with them as guardians for the weak and oppressed children and that the guardians must stand firm and be just. This good deed will be recorded.