Food For Thought...
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Salam,
A man once said (regarding three states of nafs the hostile, the phony, and the zombie)
The first are the hostiles, asleep in their rage and their anger. The hostile is very apparent. He is always angry about everything. The hostiles become the revolutionaries. The hostile person is one extreme his anger is not particularly pointed towards something his anger is not everything. He is angry he has no object of anger everything is and everybody seems to be harmful to him. Not only persons but also things even look harmful towards him. He is inimical, that's why the whole existence looks that way his basic attitude is negative and he is sleeping in a very angry sleep.
One thing is good about him, is that he is hot, and not cold. He is really boiling in this fire. He can change himself more easily then the other two kinds because he is hot his fire is alive it might be directed towards the wrong direction, but he has the power to change this direction. If his anger becomes fuel for inner transformation, he can be free and awake from this sleep.
The second are the phonies. This is the other extreme. They are the goody people, always smiling, false, and deceptive. They are never really true. The hostiles are true. The hostile shows his face, whatever it is, it might be ugly but he shows it, it's true. The phony has an ugly face but it's a mask, you never see his real face. They are always trying to be sweet. This is a trick to protect them. They are the people who are very repressed. They go on repressing all the hostility. The hostility remains, but goes into the basement and hides in the unconscious.
The hostile is a simple person, you can trust the hostile person. Remember, a person who always smiles, there is more in the basement then meets the eye. They are phony. The second is more of difficult because the sleep of the second kind has more sweet dreams in it. The first is suffering from nightmares and one awakens from a nightmare much more easily then a sweet dream. The nightmare, in a way, automatically works against the sleep, but when you are seeing beautiful dreams of paradise then there is no problem. The sleep can continue. The sweet dream defends the sleep, the nightmare is against the sleep. So the second are the so called respectable people.
The third kind is the most difficult kind. The zombie. The zombie is just in the middle, he is neither hostile nor a phony, he is dead. He is neither hot nor cold he is impotent. He has not taken any side he is afraid. He is a mirror just a reflection. He is dead, he just hangs in the middle he cannot decide, and so he has decided to be a machine.
These people the zombies are just dead. They are walking talking corpses. They are mechanical. They only know life as a rut, or a routine. The zombies are the want to be saints and mahatmas. They are the worst of all three kinds, for they have nothing. They are so dead they are like statues. They are the more difficult for they don't even know that they are asleep. Life has shrunken in them. It is not that they have become surpassed desire. No, they have become lifeless. When there is no life there is no desire but that is not the point the real sage is one who has no desire and absolute life the false saint is one who has killed his life because it is the simplest way to kill his desire.
These are the three kinds of sleepy people and the three simplified forms of the nafs. If you are hostile, things are easier. If you are a phony, be happy, things are a little more difficult but still possible. If you are a zombie then still be happy that you have understood that you are a zombie, some possibility is there.
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I always disliked the things, I never can be catagorized into just one. In this one im a mix of all three.
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Salam lilyfleur & Lost Philosopher,
Please, do not look at it as personal, it is only food for thought. My understanding of the personal aspects used above such as "he/his", "they/them" etc. are only illustrations so the reader may put a body to the subject as to aid introspection.
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I know, I just find these thing to limited and simple for me. It's a personal aversion to all these personality tests.
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salam,
Please suit yourself. It's not a personality test, but I can't stop you from seeing it that way. Here is an example of why
In this one im a mix of all three.
We are human. Can you think of someone who has never been angry, smiled, or just had been on the fence at least once in their life?
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Yeah, you are right.
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Peace M,
I followed this thread from the other link. Very interesting read. If I understand correctly, you've described 3 facets of personality? If so, do you have more? It seems these 3 types are not all-encompassing. I read it twice to make sure that ambitious (for example) isn't covered by one of the 3 types. The ambitious person is neither hostile, nor a phonie, nor a zombie. If anything, he's proactive like the "hostile", but you've defined "hostile" as He is always angry about everything.
Then there's the compassionate. Compassionate people also do not fit any of the types you've mentioned. They live to soothe and heal the wounds of others.
In short, in my experience, there's practically an infinite dynamic to the human persona. I wouldn't try to encapsulate it into any select number of types.
But more to the point, how does this tie into the moderation thing we were discussing?
Peace,
Tay -
Peace M,
Then there's the compassionate. Compassionate people also do not fit any of the types you've mentioned. They live to soothe and heal the wounds of others.
In short, in my experience, there's practically an infinite dynamic to the human persona. I wouldn't try to encapsulate it into any select number of types.
But more to the point, how does this tie into the moderation thing we were discussing?
Peace,
TayThis is my point about personality tests, they're never wide enough to explain every person that reads it.
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It seems these 3 types are not all-encompassing.
Salam Tay,
Ofcourse not. Why would you think that the above is supposed to encompass the entire spectrum of human personality?
But more to the point, how does this tie into the moderation thing we were discussing?
It was the seperation of chaotic vs. positive minds in your thread
It wasn't that long ago that this forum was quite chaotic. I admit it was difficult to remain optimistic about our future. But with a steady influx of new, bright, inquisitve, respectful, and positive minds, this place has turned the corner.
It's simple really, all that glitters is not gold and all that might appear to be negative is not chaotic. That's a portion of what the above seems to be saying. The hostile (the chaotic) is more in a position of progression, ofcourse if realized.
One thing is good about him, is that he is hot, and not cold. He is really boiling in this fire. He can change himself more easily then the other two kinds because he is hot his fire is alive it might be directed towards the wrong direction, but he has the power to change this direction. If his anger becomes fuel for inner transformation, he can be free and awake from this sleep.
So called civilized behaviour can be a slippery road bordering along the lines of the phony (respectable) and Zombie (apathetic). And that is why I asked if it is worth the the loss of individuality? Is the illusion of peace equal to the reality of it?
peace be on you.
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Peace M,
Why would you think that the above is supposed to encompass the entire spectrum of human personality?
Because it wasn't expressed as something different, so I had to guess. My bad peace
It's simple really, all that glitters is not gold and all that might appear to be negative is not chaotic.
I agree. But some things are pretty clear.
That's a portion of what the above seems to be saying. The hostile (the chaotic) is more in a position of progression, ofcourse if realized.
I agree, given the 3 choices in this thread. But there are more choices that can be progressive without hostility. And those are the ones whom I was hoping to show my gratitude towards in the thread.
So called civilized behaviour can be a slippery road bordering along the lines of the phony (respectable) and Zombie (apathetic).
I agree.
And that is why I asked if it is worth the the loss of individuality? Is the illusion of peace equal to the reality of it?
Of course not. But it is interesting that you've correlated "illusion of peace" to the thread I started. I don't feel the relative peace here is an illusion at all. I feel it is a direct result of "the steady influx of new, bright, inquisitve, respectful, and positive minds". There's an ebb and flow to this forum, just as all things really, and I'm simply appreciating the high tide - that's all.
Peace,
Tay -
Salam again,
Because it wasn't expressed as something different, so I had to guess. My bad peace
Please excuse me then. I hoped saying, 'three states of nafs' was clear enough to understand. My bad. -[
I agree. But some things are pretty clear.
Can you please elaborate with specifics?
I agree, given the 3 choices in this thread. But there are more choices that can be progressive without hostility. And those are the ones whom I was hoping to show my gratitude towards in the thread.
I understand, and this is why I meantioned that you made a conscience seperation between chaotic vs. positive minds. Basicly gratitude towards one by drawing the opposite towards another. Basicly, like praising your daughter by revealing to her the faults of your son.
Of course not. But it is interesting that you've correlated "illusion of peace" to the thread I started.
No, not at all. I never correlated "illusion of peace" to the thread you started. I only asked about the loss of individuality in that thread. It is in this thread, in which I was hoping to discuss further the seperation of notions such as choatic and positive minds etc.. that the illusion of peace vs. it's reality may come into dicussion, insha_Allah.
I don't feel the relative peace here is an illusion at all. I feel it is a direct result of "the steady influx of new, bright, inquisitve, respectful, and positive minds".
Fair enough regarding what you say about the relative peace. And nothing wrong with the influx of new folks. But it still leaves me wondering why you would say something like this
It wasn't that long ago that this forum was quite chaotic. I admit it was difficult to remain optimistic about our future.
Perhaps it puzzles me to know you saw a difference then and now?!
There's an ebb and flow to this forum, just as all things really, and I'm simply appreciating the high tide - that's all.
Nothing wrong with that, is there? Enjoy.. )
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Peace M,
Please excuse me then. I hoped saying, 'three states of nafs' was clear enough to understand. My bad.
You're excused, and I'm excused. handshake
Can you please elaborate with specifics?
Insults. Do you want links to the threads?
I understand, and this is why I meantioned that you made a conscience seperation between chaotic vs. positive minds. Basicly gratitude towards one by drawing the opposite towards another.
OK, understood.
No, not at all. I never correlated "illusion of peace" to the thread you started. I only asked about the loss of individuality in that thread.
My apologies for misunderstanding.
I was hoping to discuss further the seperation of notions such as choatic and positive minds etc.. that the illusion of peace vs. it's reality may come into dicussion, insha_Allah.
And I apologize further for steering you off track.
Fair enough regarding what you say about the relative peace. And nothing wrong with the influx of new folks. But it still leaves me wondering why you would say something like this
Quote from Tay on Today at 093518 PM
It wasn't that long ago that this forum was quite chaotic. I admit it was difficult to remain optimistic about our future.I said it because I was being honest. When people are constantly bickering and mudslinging and basically starting fires, it becomes difficult to remain optimistic about the future.
Perhaps it puzzles me to know you saw a difference then and now?!
Perhaps it does puzzle you. I'm not sure why it would.
Nothing wrong with that, is there?
Not at all. And there's nothing wrong with appreciating the peace, is there?
And further, I appreciate you playing devil's advocate, because we do need a constant refinement in our assessments and expressions to ensure that we don't overgeneralize or oversimplify. If you got the vibe from my thread that I was damning an entire group of people, then I'm truly sorry. That wasn't my intention.Peace,
Tay -
Salam Tay,
Insults. Do you want links to the threads?
I understand. Thank you.
And I apologize further for steering you off track.
No need, there are no handrails involved.
I said it because I was being honest. When people are constantly bickering and mudslinging and basically starting fires, it becomes difficult to remain optimistic about the future.
Are you talking about fires in cyber space or in physical space? Which future, an optimistic peaceful future, or just one where your job as a mod is easier?
Is the illusion of peace equal to the reality of peace? Lets put this in another way, maybe it'll help it along here.
Is the illusion of peace equal to the reality of peace for an individual?
And further, I appreciate you playing devil's advocate, because we do need a constant refinement in our assessments and expressions to ensure that we don't overgeneralize or oversimplify. If you got the vibe from my thread that I was damning an entire group of people, then I'm truly sorry. That wasn't my intention.
I agree with you about constant refinement. And if you understand that, then I pray you understand that it wasn't that I got a vibe that you were "damning an entire people", it was just a natural response.
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Peace M,
Are you talking about fires in cyber space or in physical space?
Yeah, physical fires. We had arsonists here at free-minds and I'm happy that they've all been rounded up by the police.
Which future, an optimistic peaceful future, or just one where your job as a mod is easier?
Of course, I want the future where my mod job will be easier. That's all I care about. Who cares about an optimistic peaceful future? I don't. That's why I accepted the role. I volunteer my time because I needed something easy in my life. And those pesky arsonists were burning up my neighborhood.
You've got me all figured out. Thanks for the benefit of the doubt/suspicion.
Peace (in reality, not illusion) be upon you,
Tay -
Salam Tay,
Good timing! )
Yeah, physical fires. We had arsonists here at free-minds and I'm happy that they've all been rounded up by the police.
Ok, this is a bit of a stretch. We had some physical fires here in SD a lil while back and frankly, I'd like to see you compare your grief of people bickering on a website to their loosing homes and lifes. Dig?
Of course, I want the future where my mod job will be easier. That's all I care about. Who cares about an optimistic peaceful future? I don't. That's why I accepted the role. I volunteer my time because I needed something easy in my life. And those pesky arsonists were burning up my neighborhood.
Jeez, there was an option to say, yeah both! You answered a question that is very important though, that you volunteer your time! But, that's just it, you sir did it on your own. Is it fair to complain about it? Ok maybe put into another way
Which future, an optimistic peaceful future, or just one where your job as a mod is easier? - These questions are one and the same, or at least could be. This why I actually thought you be like duh! Both! . But there is one difference between the two, and that is intention. If it's a painful process putting out fires, then one aught not be a fireman. I'm glad you brought up cops. An analogy would be the beat cop that after years of being on the streets end up resenting the people he is there to protect. Have you read the Fountainhead? Ryand depicts this beutifully about a social worker who goes into it with full of it "noble" intent, but becomes somewhat of a monster or sorts... Tay, this is portions of what the esoteric part of individuality comes into play. If you keep digging in, you'll most likely find something.
You've got me all figured out. Thanks for the benefit of the doubt/suspicion.
Ouch! There is nothing to figure out. These are only words we read, then type. Which brings us back to cyber peace vs. physical world peace. (I know that could be a conversation on it's own, cyber vs. "physical" ) ) Would you rather have some firestarter workout his or her issues here with words, or burn down your house, the "physical" one where you live. Sometimes it seems we forget what this/these(styles of websites) tools are for?!
Peace (in reality, not illusion) be upon you
Back at ya! handshake
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Peace M,
You bring up important points regarding critical thinking and self-analysis. And I appreciate that. But in getting there, you drag the discussion through broken glass and expect people not to wonder why. I don't mind, it is what it is, and I accept it. But as such, you should also accept the same.
Jeez, there was an option to say, yeah both
But I don't like the second option, so saying "both" would no be accurate. I don't do this for ease, nor do I do it for peace that will lead to ease. Progression is my goal in life. If I'm not progressing than I am stagnant. My understanding of our faith does not reward stagnation nor regression.
Moving on, I do volunteer my time, and I have not complained about it despite your provacative question. I'm not sure why you would transform a sentiment of appreciation for the positive into a sentiment of complaint about the negative. Perhaps that's the way you see things, and that's fine. But it's not accurate to project your perception onto others.
You remind me of an ex-girlfirend (no offense). She would set limits and tests and conclusions in her mind and wait for me to fulfil or disappoint. Meanwhile, I didn't know the criteria. So, the outcome, needless to say, was not what she hoped for, but maybe it was what she expected.
It's like you read a post, and that stimulates an idea. And then, rather than just express the idea, you throw out little clues and provacative questions to see if people will find their way to what's in your head. Am I completely off-base?
An analogy would be the beat cop that after years of being on the streets end up resenting the people he is there to protect. Have you read the Fountainhead? Ryand depicts this beutifully about a social worker who goes into it with full of it "noble" intent, but becomes somewhat of a monster or sorts... Tay, this is portions of what the esoteric part of individuality comes into play. If you keep digging in, you'll most likely find something.
I get it, and honestly, thank you. I will definitely keep it in mind. A good friend of mine is a therapist and he tells me that all the therapists get together behind the scenes and often laugh about their experiences. He said it may seem cruel, but the nature of the work is so taxing that they need the humor, however cruel, just as a comic relief from the seriousness and drama they're surrounded by. They need it to maintain their balanced perspective.
Would you rather have some firestarter workout his or her issues here with words, or burn down your house, the "physical" one where you live. Sometimes it seems we forget what this/these(styles of websites) tools are for?!
Excellent question, but again, there are other options than the 2 you provided. This forum is not rehab for the mentally deranged. The scope of my personal responsibilty cannot reach out that far, otherwise I'll lose my mind wondering about people. I do understand that there may be far-reaching implications of the text I type. And if you sat here with me for one night you'd see how often I edit, delete, or completely re-type my posts because I try to keep that in mind. But at the end of the day, one has to choose a position and move forward with it. Mine has always been one of optimism because that's how my mind works best, and I believe in positive reinforcement.
I believe the best and most productive way to discuss is in peace. And I believe people who seem to be intentionally trying to disturb that peace should be called out on it. And let the chips fall where they may.
Peace,
Tay -
Salam Tay,
But in getting there, you drag the discussion through broken glass and expect people not to wonder why.
This is false. Where do you get that I "expect people not to wonder why"? On the contrary, I think people aught to ask why, it's an important question. Through communication hopefully they would come to understanding instead making false statements. "Broken glass"? You seem to have a flare for the dramatic on this one.
But as such, you should also accept the same.
Please let me know if I don't.
But I don't like the second option, so saying "both" would no be accurate. I don't do this for ease, nor do I do it for peace that will lead to ease.
Would it had been more proper for you to ask, about a future that simply doesn't "bum you out?" confused
I said it because I was being honest. When people are constantly bickering and mudslinging and basically starting fires, it becomes difficult to remain optimistic about the future.
I didn't see much difference between the two, if you could explain a bit further, that'd be nice. What is your idea of progression?
I'm not sure why you would transform a sentiment of appreciation for the positive into a sentiment of complaint about the negative.
Interesting, I thought you "understood" this already. It's ok. This is why I meantioned that you made a conscience seperation between chaotic vs. positive minds. Basicly gratitude towards one by drawing the opposite towards another, like praising your daughter by revealing to her the faults of your son. Your response
OK, understood.
She would set limits and tests and conclusions in her mind and wait for me to fulfil or disappoint. Meanwhile, I didn't know the criteria. So, the outcome, needless to say, was not what she hoped for, but maybe it was what she expected. It's like you read a post, and that stimulates an idea. And then, rather than just express the idea, you throw out little clues and provacative questions to see if people will find their way to what's in your head. Am I completely off-base?
Yeah. Tay, please lets get one thing clear, again. I'm not trying to figure you out or psychoanalyze you. I don't know who you are and all anyone can interact with here on a message board are words they read on their computer screens. With this said and going along with your fire analogy, perhaps you seem to take the cyber world to be all too real. If I'm off on this please let me know, but once again, just going off of your own words. Also, I'd like to reiterate something I said a lil while back on another thread, since it seems it's due again. 'We do not know eachother but by only the play of a few words, so please lets not pretend that we do.' And by saying such a thing, I am also sharing that I do not pretend to know you or any other participant on this board, except by their words alone.
With that said, please know that for me, all of this is like creating a track. It starts with a spark, yes, but the rest beautifully reveals itself by simply jamming of off each individual part. There are no "expected" results that I'm look for, because if I did my mind would be getting in the way, and there would not be a natural flow.
A good friend of mine is a therapist and he tells me that all the therapists get together behind the scenes and often laugh about their experiences. He said it may seem cruel, but the nature of the work is so taxing that they need the humor, however cruel, just as a comic relief from the seriousness and drama they're surrounded by. They need it to maintain their balanced perspective.
People may do many things to "maintain their balanced perspective." And many people do many things, not all good. I dislike this conduct you just explained, Tay. Especially between therapists. It show a lack of honor for the position. It's like the saying, "If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen."
This forum is not rehab for the mentally deranged.
Are you sure about that? Really though, take a look around, the world in so many ways is a forum for the mentally deranged. Humans are for the most part mentally deranged. Heck, look at the conduct of your friends the therapist. They sit around laughing at people's misery to keep "a balanced perspective." Riiiiight?!
The scope of my personal responsibilty cannot reach out that far, otherwise I'll lose my mind wondering about people. I do understand that there may be far-reaching implications of the text I type. And if you sat here with me for one night you'd see how often I edit, delete, or completely re-type my posts because I try to keep that in mind. But at the end of the day, one has to choose a position and move forward with it. Mine has always been one of optimism because that's how my mind works best, and I believe in positive reinforcement.
That's coo! I do the same plus I'm horribly grammatically challenged.
I understand where you're coming from on this. What you say about "one has to choose a position and move forward with it" though, may be a double edge sword. There is a need for dissonance. Harmony and dissoance are two sides of the same coin. Even the theory of cognitive dissoance has a very good point.
Peace be on you Tay, I appreciate your time and kind demeanor.
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Peace M,
Where do you get that I "expect people not to wonder why"?
It's a general vibe I got. But I may be wrong in assuming your position. My apologies for that.
Would it had been more proper for you to ask, about a future that simply doesn't "bum you out?"
No. Like I said, it's about progression.
I didn't see much difference between the two, if you could explain a bit further, that'd be nice.
You equated my appreciation for peace as a desire to "make my job as a mod easier". These are not the same. Easy and difficult are not indicitave of progression. On the contrary, it is often very difficult to progress spiritually. But it is rewarding.
What is your idea of progression?
The dictionary definition works fine
a movement toward a goal or to a further or higher stageInteresting, I thought you "understood" this already.
I understood the reasoning of pointing out the opposite. What I did not and still do not understand is why you flipped the sentiment.
please lets get one thing clear, again. I'm not trying to figure you out or psychoanalyze you. I don't know who you are and all anyone can interact with here on a message board are words they read on their computer screens. With this said and going along with your fire analogy, perhaps you seem to take the cyber world to be all too real.
Real? What is real, Muhammad?
Aren't these words your real expressions?
Just because we haven't looked into each other's eyes as we spoke does not negate the thoughts behind the words we type on this screen. Thoughts are the only true reality. It's the only thing we can create. Please think about that.So, no, I don't feel like you're trying to figure me out. Not at all. I feel like you're trying force others to figure you out. That was my point.
With that said, please know that for me, all of this is like creating a track. It starts with a spark, yes, but the rest beautifully reveals itself by simply jamming of off each individual part. There are no "expected" results that I'm look for, because if I did my mind would be getting in the way, and there would not be a natural flow.
Thanks for explaining that. I understand. And if you say that's the truth. then I have to believe you. So please forgive my assumptions otherwise, including the ones in this very reply.
People may do many things to "maintain their balanced perspective." And many people do many things, not all good. I dislike this conduct you just explained, Tay. Especially between therapists. It show a lack of honor for the position. It's like the saying, "If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen."
I don't judge the situation that harshly. I've never walked in his shoes, so I don't know.
Are you sure about that? Really though, take a look around, the world in so many ways is a forum for the mentally deranged. Humans are for the most part mentally deranged.
I understand what you're saying, but I have to draw the line somewhere. That's my point. I can't take personal responsibility for rehabilitating people based on what they might do in the outside world, such as starting real fires.
Heck, look at the conduct of your friends the therapist. They sit around laughing at people's misery to keep "a balanced perspective." Riiiiight?!
You're certainly entitled to feel that way, but I don't agree. My former brother in-law(he passed away, may he be in peace) was a corrections officer. He worked in a jail. He didn't do anything to maintain a balanced perspective. He held it all in. And it affected his life tremendously. That's all I can really say about that, but from experience and from others, I know that if you don't find a way to maintain balance, it can destroy you from the inside out. As long as it doesn't affect your integrity then I see no problem with any means necessary.
That's coo! I do the same plus I'm horribly grammatically challenged.
I think you articulate yourself very well.
I understand where you're coming from on this. What you say about "one has to choose a position and move forward with it" though, may be a double edge sword. There is a need for dissonance. Harmony and dissoance are two sides of the same coin. Even the theory of cognitive dissoance has a very good point.
I agree. Just like muscles need resistance to progress, so does spiritual growth. But as an individual, I can't sit there and not choose a position because if I did that, then a single word could not be typed. I'd be forever on the fence. So, I do have to choose a position and move forward but at the same time remain open and flexible to refining that position. And that's where you and others come in. And hopefully, I provide the resistance for you.
Back when I was 20 and waiting tables, I worked with some of the most amazing people. They were nothing extraordinary at face value, even casual conversation. But I found myself at that time at the early stages of my spiritual journey. So, everyone I worked with (over three years in a restaurant, that amounted to a lot) became my encyclopedia. I dug and dug at their experiences so I could learn from them. I realized that I may never visit Peru, but speaking with 5 people from Peru, I could get alot of the experiences in summary. So, that's what I did. I virtually lived in Spain, Portugal, Peru, Brazil, Mexico, Alabama, San Francisco, Sedona, Costa Rica, Puerto Rico, Dominican Republic, Jamaica, etc. etc.
They were my real teachers. And you know what they taught me? Be good, and progress. And that's the same message in the qur'an. That's what this is all about.
Peace,
Tay