Shaykh Hamza Yusuf
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Salam,
Tay, can you help clarify this please.
But some of this education he is providing is more of the same fatalism, superstition, and dogma that has plagued islam for centuries.
But I cannot support someone whom I disagree with, just for the sake of the word "muslim".
Please help clarify what you are saying here. Is it that you choose not to support the perpetuation of those types of lectures because you disagree only with a certain portion of what is being said? Or do you disgree with all? Or is the disagreement with a just a portion equate to disagreement with the whole? Or is there more?
Thanks! -
Peace M,
Is it that you choose not to support the perpetuation of those types of lectures because you disagree only with a certain portion of what is being said?
It's kind of a gray area. In general, it's a case by case basis. In this instance the aspect I disagree with is, in my opinion, paramount. So it really is about the specifics I disagree with and whether or not they coalesce with my understanding of the big picture that forms the basis of whether or not I choose to support them. And to further clarify, by "support", I mean to proactively endorse as a whole.
Come to think of it, there aren't any people I've read or listened to whom I agree with totally.
I hope that helps.
Peace,
Tay -
Salam,
I hope that helps.
Paramountly
You disagree about the fatalism involved with the notions of laylutal qadr, if I understood your posts correctly. Yet, one can look at the notions of what the speaker is saying, in your own words,
He was telling people that on this night during ramadan, if folks prayed all night, they would be absolved of all their sins.
one could see it as if you both are actually talking about the same thing regarding fatalism.If one continuely lives with their sin(s) without repentance, this could be fatal to their fate and progression could either be quite slow or not be made at all. And isn't it part of what this notion behind laylutal qadr is saying? There comes a time when a person will need to shed their bagagge to progress, and how can he or she do it if they do not feel cleansed of (or come to terms with) their past? If not done, then the person may continue to carry the bagagge, which will then create their own brand of fatalism.
I believe you understood my question well in light of our recent posts. So why do you think that such a psychological advantage towards one's spritual progression to be a paramountly negative aspect yet something along the lines of material advantage to deserve your endorsement?
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Peace M,
If one continuely lives with their sin(s) without repentance, this could be fatal to their fate and progression could either be quite slow or not be made at all.
I never suggested one live without repentance. I suggest people shy away from promoting concepts under the flag of islam which are not quranic.
539 Whoever repents after his wrongdoing and makes reparations, then God will accept his repentance. God is Forgiving, Merciful.
And isn't it part of what this notion behind laylutal qadr is saying?
I suppose. It could also be a crutch, an escape-clause, an absolvement of responsibility for a future clean slate.
There comes a time when a person will need to shed their bagagge to progress, and how can he or she do it if they do not feel cleansed of (or come to terms with) their past?
Why not "cleanse" continuously? Does this person need a magical night to do it? Is Allah's mercy limited?
If not done, then the person may continue to carry the bagagge, which will then create their own brand of fatalism.
If the person's only avenue of getting rid of their baggage was via believing in laylutal qadr, then I'd agree. However, the quran is pretty clear that all one has to do is repent and make reparations. Isn't that what speakers, as ambassadors of islam, should be promoting?
So why do you think that such a psychological advantage towards one's spritual progression to be a paramountly negative aspect yet something along the lines of material advantage to deserve your endorsement?
The "psychological adavantage" is your opinion. My opinion is that it is not a psychological advantage at all. Material and spiritual are 2 sides of the same coin. As for why I would endorse one lecture and not another, I believe I already expressed this
In general, it's a case by case basis. In this instance the aspect I disagree with is, in my opinion, paramount. So it really is about the specifics I disagree with and whether or not they coalesce with my understanding of the big picture that forms the basis of whether or not I choose to support them. And to further clarify, by "support", I mean to proactively endorse as a whole.
Peace,
Tay -
Salam,
I never suggested one live without repentance.
I never said you did.
Why not "cleanse" continuously? Does this person need a magical night to do it? Is Allah's mercy limited?
A Muslim does cleanse continuously. A Muslim does so by practice of daily prayers amongst other regular Religous routine and practices. But what does this have to do with laylutal qadr being, as you say, paramountly a negative and disagreeable aspect? Plus who said that Allah's mercy is limited? Did the person who gave the lecture you saw, who you disagree with thus who you don't endorse say this?
Well the Quran is clear and here it is with a translation that maybe you might even agree with.
Surah 97
In the name of God, the Almighty, the Merciful.- We have sent it down in the Night of Decree.
- And do you know what is the Night of Decree?
- The Night of Decree is better than one thousand months.
- The angels and the Spirit come down in it by their Lord?s leave to carry out every matter.
- It is peaceful until the coming of dawn.
That's quite a night! Some might even say that's quite a magical night... peace
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Peace M,
I never said you did.
Then why mention this
"If one continuely lives with their sin(s) without repentance..."If I never said it, and you never said I said it, whose words are those and what are they in reference to? And more importantly, what does it have to do with this discussion?
In the name of God, the Almighty, the Merciful.
- We have sent it down in the Night of Decree.
- And do you know what is the Night of Decree?
- The Night of Decree is better than one thousand months.
- The angels and the Spirit come down in it by their Lord?s leave to carry out every matter.
- It is peaceful until the coming of dawn.
That's quite a night! Some might even say that's quite a magical night...
Yeah, I noticed no mention of a "clean slate" in exchange for a night of prayers. That should answer your question, yet again "what does this have to do with laylutal qadr being, as you say, paramountly a negative and disagreeable aspect? "
Peace,
Tay -
Salam,
Please let me post it again, you seem to be confused about what is being said.
You disagree about the fatalism involved with the notions of laylutal qadr, if I understood your posts correctly. Yet, one can look at the notions of what the speaker is saying, in your own words, one could see it as if you both are actually talking about the same thing regarding fatalism. If one continuely lives with their sin(s) without repentance, this could be fatal to their fate and progression could either be quite slow or not be made at all. And isn't it part of what this notion behind laylutal qadr is saying? There comes a time when a person will need to shed their bagagge to progress, and how can he or she do it if they do not feel cleansed of (or come to terms with) their past? If not done, then the person may continue to carry the bagagge, which will then create their own brand of fatalism.
That's why I mentioned it. It's simple, I see both you and the person who gave the lecture you saw, who you disagree with thus who you don't endorse, actually speaking about the same thing, "progression". I'm sorry if you are seeing it as negative, that is your own sight.
Yeah, I noticed no mention of a "clean slate" in exchange for a night of prayers. That should answer your question, yet again "what does this have to do with laylutal qadr being, as you say, paramountly a negative and disagreeable aspect? "
As far as your ideas of the Quran go, they are yours and it is you who will have to answer for them as we all have to for our own. However no mention of "clean slate" still does not answer at all why this aspect is "paramount" to you.
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Peace M,
Please let me post it again, you seem to be confused about what is being said.
Thanks for your consideration. I was asking for clarification, after all.
I see both you and the person who gave the lecture you saw, who you disagree with thus who you don't endorse, actually speaking about the same thing, "progression". I'm sorry if you are seeing it as negative, that is your own sight.
I see. "Progression". Nothing negative there. But here's the thing, you stated "If one continuely lives with their sin(s) without repentance..."
I didn't say this.
The speaker didn't say this.
You're the only one who said it.Again, nothing negative, just wondering what that has to do with anything. But, moving on...
As far as your ideas of the Quran go, they are yours and it is you who will have to answer for them as we all have to for our own
Cool.
However no mention of "clean slate" still does not answer at all why this aspect is "paramount" to you.
Are you reading my posts?
Here's what I stated to Abu Zahra
this is not quranic, and, in fact, goes against the very core message of the quran, as I understand it - and that is a progressive life of constant improvement. This concept of laylutal qadr, imo, is not so far away from the catholic concept of confession, or the born-again concept of accepting jesus, or the muslim concept of visiting a black building and partaking in rituals - all with the outcome of performing the right combination of button-pressing in order to gain God's approval and a clean slate.
And here's some more that I replied to you
It could also be a crutch, an escape-clause, an absolvement of responsibility for a future clean slate.
Peace,
Tay -
As Salaamu Alaikum
Tay How are you? I pray all is fine, Insha-ALLAH, and Brother Mehdi, thank-you for adding your comments, very appreciated. In response to your last post Tay, you help me understand something paramount to this issue about Layla tul Qadr. And that is that you have or it sounds like you have only based your critique of what Shaikh Hamza said about this night from his lecture and your view of not seeing that to be supported by the "Qur'an". Well, although the Qur'an does not elaborate about this night as Shaikh Hamza done in his lecture, what he stated in his lecture is found in such explicit terms in the Hadith of the Messenger of ALLAH (S). These Hadith are in Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim etc. As well, these explanation are also found in the commentaries of the Qur'an. Search any commentary under the Surah of Qadr (97) and you will find the virtues of this Blessed and Magnificent night! And the concept thereof, is completely Islamic. For when we look at the Deen, we see that ALLAH has granted many "Windows of Opportunity" for us to take full advantage of. For life is nothing other than "Windows of Opportunity". So for instance, Friday is the best day of the week, and there is a hour within this day that if the servant ask of ALLAH is will not go unanswered. The same is the case for the time between the Athan being called and the call of the Iqamah, the du'a at that time will not go unanswered, this is the same when it rains, a great time to make du'a. ANother blessed and opportune time is the time right before fajr, in the third part of the night, where seeking forgiveness and asking for it is emphatically encourage. Then there is the special places, like that of the Ka'aba and praying there which is so much greater than any prayer anywhere else, then the same at the Masjid of the Prophet. And on like this are there so many statements from the Messenger of ALLAH (S) about these blessed times and places. Well, Laila tul Qadr is one of those times, so why is this seen to be so foreign from a Qur'anic point of view, rather Tay, it is very Qur'anic, very Islamic. And I am not at all trying to convinve you to agree and accept Shaikh Hamza Yusuf, rather just presenting the point that what he has stated is supported by the text of the Qur'an and Sunnah, and that to blame him or anyone for that matter about teaching what the Qur'an and the Sunnah has guided us to is harmful for us and those who follows that blame, because then we are at odds with the beliefs of our Deen, and I love my Muslim Brothers and Sisters and I want good for them, so if I perceive such, I feel obliged as much as I can, to at least make an attempt to clarify, and with ALLAh is the Refuge!!!
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As Salaamu Alaikum
Bigmo, how are you? Insha-ALLAH you are fine. You stated that Shaikh Hamza Yusuf does not address this issues that we face and living in the modern world. Well that is general, because what issues are you talking about that we face that he is not dealing with (and I am not implying that he deals with everything)? If you mean more mundane issues, then often times this is detail and I think you would have to look more into his website at Zaytuna.org for that. Although, there is an extensive series that he translated from a Shaikh dealing with many of the mundane issues thatb Muslims face in the west. As a matter of fact, the title of the series is "Sacred LAW, Muslims living in the west. And it covers issues like buying houses, the interest (riba) issue, meat in this society and like that. So, if I could encourage you, you might be interested in looking at the Zaytuna website and you may find what you are looking for, please let me know if you did.
Ma Salaam
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Peace Abu Zahra,
I am fine, thank you for asking. I hope all is well with you also.
And thank you for your explanation. I place no fault with you or anyone who supports the sheikh, or any other person they feel is pumping good-energy into the world. I do not wish this discussion to sidetrack into a debate about hadith so I'll just say this. At this point in my life, I do not subscribe to the hadith as part of islamic jurisprudence. Nor do I subscribe to any commentary. The quran states that it was made easy for us, and that it is perfect, complete, and contains explanations for everything. That's enough for me.
I hope you can understand, at this point, why I feel the way I do about the sheikh. That's really all I have left to say about it in this context.
Peace,
Tay -
As Salaamu Alaikum Tay,
Thank you for the response and your courtesy. If you don't mind I would like to respond to your last post, but it seemed that you didn't want to use this forum for that, as it related to the Hadith. I think this forum would be beneficial to use, only because there are some points that I would like to offer that can be of some benefit for us all in our implementation of our Deen, but if not, then could I ask to still be able to provide you with these points in another forum (maybe an e-mail).
Ma Salaam
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As Salaamu Alaikum Tay, I didn't know how to start a new thread, although I would have like to, but I did leave a couple of comments in two different threads. If you can show how to open up a new one or open it up and I will post in it right away that will be helpful.
Ma Salaam
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Salam,
Tay, if this is what you find paramount in what you disagree with
partaking in rituals - all with the outcome of performing the right combination of button-pressing in order to gain God's approval and a clean slate.
then it is undestandable to that at since you admit you do not follow religous routine (such as daily prayer) you would see "partaking in rituals" as merely "button pressing". I believe You are very much not only disregarding the importance of such rituals but you also tend to demean these practices by comparing such rituals to "button-pressing".
So therefore it makes sense that you endorse the likes of deepok chopra and books like "the science of getting rich" yet have an aversion to a lecture you saw on laylutal qadr.
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Peace M,
As I stated, I've yet to meet a person I completely agree with. My highlighting a certain aspect of anyone's lecture that I agree with is not endorsing them as a whole, just as my highlighting aspects I disagree with is not demeaning them as a whole.
Further, the "button-pressing" in this context deals with ONE night of prayer erasing a lifetime of sin.
Peace,
Tay