Muhammad Existed?
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Some of us say it with ease that There is no historical figure such as Muhammad! and Muhammad actually means elevation etc.
Since this is what they claim I would like to ask them how they arrived at this conclusion? because wthout deciding weather Muhammad was a historical figure, the other thread started "Praise be to Muhammad Rasool Allah" becomes void.
There is no doubt that Mohammed existed, occasional attempts to deny it notwithstanding. His neighbours in Byzantine Syria got to hear of him within two years of his death at the latest; a Greek text written during the Arab invasion of Syria between 632 and 634 mentions that "a false prophet has appeared among the Saracens" and dismisses him as an impostor on the ground that prophets do not come "with sword and chariot". It thus conveys the impression that he was actually leading the invasions.
Patricia crone. -
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Peace Rajah
I guess we cannot prove the existence of any of the messengers/prophets. I guess it is part of the things which are hidden but we must believe in. We can not prove existence of God or Malaika. We can not prove that the srcipture are from God and we can not prove the Last day. But we believe with certainty and we evidences all around us.
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Peace
To argue that Muhammad did not exist until proven otherwise is to reverse the burden of proof. Our proof is the Quraan. Why don?t you prove from the Quran and other evidence that Muhammad did not exist.
Also
625
Pickthall Of them are some who listen unto thee, but We have placed upon their hearts veils, lest they should understand, and in their ears a deafness. If they saw every token they would not believe therein; to the point that, when they come unto thee to argue with thee, the disbelievers say This is naught else than fables of the men of old.
Why argue with the disbelievers?
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peace
the way I look at the quran, it does not tell us "ancient tales" or "fables of men of old" but parables we can learn from. So to me, it isn't important whether Ibrahim, Muhammad, Musa, Isa were real or not, what's important is what they represent in the stories. Since we have absolutely no proof that these people existed besides religious scriptures, I cannot believe in their existence as actual people.625
Pickthall Of them are some who listen unto thee, but We have placed upon their hearts veils, lest they should understand, and in their ears a deafness. If they saw every token they would not believe therein; to the point that, when they come unto thee to argue with thee, the disbelievers say This is naught else than fables of the men of old.
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Peace Phoenix1
Now I understand you position better. My query is if we do not believe in the messengers and in the case of the Quran if we do not believe in Muhammad certain verses directly with regard to Muhammad/Messenger will be false. Are you saying part of the Quran is lies and also creates false verses for the reader to get the impression about a non existing messenger ?
In that case who authored the Quran if not for the messenger ?
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Peace,
Why has uncertainty about the name of the person who delivered the quran, become uncertainty about the very existence of that person?
Someone delivered the quran. To do so he had to exist in the first place.
3340
Mohammed was not the father of any man among you, but he is the messenger of God and the seal of the prophets. And God is fully aware of all things.Nadeem
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Peace all,
Please see the following discussion for proof that "Muhammad" as used in al-qur'aan is a proper name and not a common noun, especially in 472
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=11105.msg106251#msg106251
472 And those who believe and do good works, and believe in what was sent down to Muhammed, for it is the truth from their Lord, He cancels for them their sins, and relieves their concern.
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peace
did Muhammad exist? I would say no. But if you think otherwise, I would like to hear your argument. As the quran says, "bring forth your proof if you are truthful..."Salam Pheonix,
Raj'ah gave her argument, she said there was historical evidence from not only Arab sources and the Qur'an but also from the Greeks. We can be pretty certain that Muhammad existed.
And as another on this thread said, it mentions his name in the Qur'an, and please, explain to us how the Qur'an was revealed if Muhammad the prophet of this revelation did not exist.
It's pretty obvious that the conclusion that Muhammad didn't exist is more far fetched than what history tells us.
And all to often on this forum people can derive entire Histories out of the Qur'an (which is a book primarily of guidance and not of history) using so many presumptions and ignoring many facts and then use the rediculous argument regarding traditional history as 'well we can't be sure' well we can sure, and we can be sure that the majority of the alternate histories and theories that are passed about by Joe Bloggs aren't as well founded as the traditional evidence we have.
Show to us how you have come to the conclusion that Muhammad did not exist and as an extra treat, please give us your theory (based on facts) of how the Qur'an was revealed.
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peace
Thank you Tanveer and Al Quraishi for the posts.
My theory (and this is just a theory) was that since the meanings of many words of the quran have been changed over time, it is certainly possible that the meaning of "Muhammad" got manipulated too. There may have been some arab leader who took up the title and claimed to be a messenger. But of course, this is all mere conjecture.
There was a person in history that we call Muhammad, there has to be someone that the Hadith are based upon. There was someone who wrote the Quran, it didn't fall from the sky.
But is that really the person called "muhammad" in the Quran? I don't think we can be sure of that. -
nd all to often on this forum people can derive entire Histories out of the Qur'an (which is a book primarily of guidance and not of history)
That is exactly what I am saying. People keep saying this and posting verses that say this, yet they still keep arguing about the "existence" and "authenticity" of these "historical figures" and "historical events." Why?
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So just for curiosity and I may have asked you this before, but what are your beliefs? Are you or do you call yourself a Muslim and do you believe the Qur'an is a divine book revealed by God?
But is that really the person called "muhammad" in the Quran? I don't think we can be sure of that.
We can be more sure than thinking without evidence, that he did not exist at all...
Salam
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Peace be upon prophet of islam the exalted one who brought us the WORD as previouse prophets did.
Why should the lies of history affect my affection for this holy lineage!? never understood this.
20% of narrations told by history was thrown out of window, but a good 80% synchronizes with the personage of the exalted one . The one that we all shoud strive to become.
peace
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Ameen
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Peace
To argue that Muhammad did not exist until proven otherwise is to reverse the burden of proof. Our proof is the Quraan. Why don?t you prove from the Quran and other evidence that Muhammad did not exist.
Also
625
Pickthall Of them are some who listen unto thee, but We have placed upon their hearts veils, lest they should understand, and in their ears a deafness. If they saw every token they would not believe therein; to the point that, when they come unto thee to argue with thee, the disbelievers say This is naught else than fables of the men of old.
Why argue with the disbelievers?
Exactly bro
Cheers
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peace
Al Quraishi,
I try to be muslim, and I believe that the quran contains guidance.
That is exactly what I am saying. People keep saying this and posting verses that say this, yet they still keep arguing about the "existence" and "authenticity" of these "historical figures" and "historical events." Why?Alpha97,
the thing is that if you believe the 80% (which seems like an exagguration), you can't ignore the rest of the 20%. You can't pick and choose what you want to believe from a source. Well, that's what I think. If some of the stories are made up, we can't believe that the others aren't too because we agree with them.
And of course, I have no problem in believing that he actually existed. -
Peace Phoenix,
Of course I peak and choose! We have given choice by ALMIGHY just to do that! GOD asks for surrender with your own choice!
That is how one sentence of a ZEN master can hit you and make you think of the day after that no verse of of the book can. WHY? because it is LIVE transmission of knowing! That is the secret of prophets! Mohammad has gone deeply into collective consciousensess of humanity why? because Mohammad could hit you in the heart! A live transmission of the WORD. Those many who got directly hit by Mohammad gave that flame lively through.I sketch my prophet in a way that in my MIND a most beautiful human can be. and we also create our own image of GOD The same way. The Most HIGHNESS, HIS MAJESTY, LIGHT OF THE LIGHTS! the ONE with the most tender touch ever that one can imagine!
That is glorifying!
Yet me FOOL!
i DISCOVER THAT i AM A CREATURE MADE SUCH THAT i BECOME THAT WHICH i PUT my INTENTION AND ATTENTION AT.
As we glorify, we become glorified. As we praise , we are being praised. A shift happens within our consciousness. We really become exalted! The world pull down and by glorifying one becomes glorified. within and without!
phoenix, about the percentage correct it till you are also satisfied. no point there.
peace
peace,
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peace phoenix,
Learning to glorify is like learning to play a music instrument.
but this time the instrument is your soul. It has its unique sound. you have to tune it so that you can play it.
instrument needs to be straightend, cleaned and tuned.
You need to practice before you get the hang of it and learn to play.It is not easy but the return on investment has never been bigger!
After that you can start playing HIS song through your instrument! you will loose yourself in the beauty of the music! The notes become gloriouse when a soul GIVES! with no self interest. because nobody is remained to receive anything back. It becomes a LOVE music.
we will talk more
peace