Judeo-Christian Context of the Quran?
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welcome I felt the same way about the trinity before I came here. It'll be interesting to hear more of your point of view.
Thanks for the welcome! ) My POV is pretty close to the Quran when it comes to Jesus, with the exception that I do believe in the crucifixion and bodily resurrection - although I've heard it argued both ways from the Quran from different people. I also think Paul has been grossly misinterpreted by later Christians. But seeing as this is a Muslim forum, for the sake of good manners I won't elaborate except via pm or email.
Thanks again for the welcome.
Joel -
Salam.
welcome to the forum.
Please, read The Quran very carefully and ask any question that pops into your head. There are more sisters and brothers here who know more then all of the "scholars" in the Mid-East.
Good luck.
Peace.
Alen,
Thanks! I'm going to have to go through the notes I kept in my previous readings and perhaps post a question or two in the next few days.
Peace,
Joel -
Peace Joel,
Welcome to the forum, I hope you enjoy your stay here. )
Regarding the question in your first post you may find this useful.
I also think Paul has been grossly misinterpreted by later Christians. But seeing as this is a Muslim forum, for the sake of good manners I won't elaborate except via pm or email.
You may elaborate your point here ), I for one would be interested to hear about that, you can post it in this thread or in this section.
God Bless
peace -
Peace Joel,
Welcome to the forum, I hope you enjoy your stay here.
Regarding the question in your first post you may find this useful.
You may elaborate your point here , I for one would be interested to hear about that, you can post it in this thread or in this section.
God Bless
peaceHello Angel!
I'll give a quick summary of my view of Paul, and how he has been misinterpreted by later Christians
Paul was a brilliant theologian who was obsessed with the implications of Jesus being the Messiah. He had to re-think in entirety certain portions of his assumptions as a zealous Jew, such as 1) efficacy of following the Torah to convert the inward part of a person to righteousness, 2) assumptions of the Messiah being strictly a military/civic leader like David. He als had to answer certain questions that Judaism could not answer, such as what the meaning of the crucifixion was, and what were followers of Jesus to be doing now that he had ascended into heaven.
I believe Paul was blatantly monotheist, evidenced by statements like 1st Corinthians 86 - "...yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live." Such statements are clearly subordinationist and do not reflect the stance of later Trinitarian thinkers. I believe most of his writings lay out the implications of what it means to believe in Jesus as the Word made flesh, namely that Jesus has taken his place in heaven as the last Adam and regained what humanity was supposed to be. But Paul saw Jesus as the first of a renewal of the corrupted human race, that Jesus was a trailblazer for humanity to come back to what it was. Paul spoke of his revelation of God's son in him, namely the revelation of Adamic sonship given back to all people through Jesus Christ as "the firstborn among many brothers and sisters." What Jesus was on earth is the expectation of God for all people. This makes the cross not something to be accepted at a distance, but a spiritual process that must be embraced as ongoing in the disciple of Jesus. The cross is powerless if it is only accepted as a point of dogma or history, it must be lived in order for a person to attain to the fullness of Jesus. Paul makes several statements along these lines, talking about crucifying one's desires, or putting certain inordinate pleasures to death.
But if one views Paul through a Trinitarian lens, then the cross is merely something to be believed in, and Jesus brings nothing more than another religion that turns all other previous revelation on its head.
Hope this makes sense.
Peace,
Joel -
Peace and welcome,
I grew up as a Christian myself, when I saw the same message in the Quran, I accepted it as God's Message. When it comes to the connection between the Bible and the Quran, this maybe of some help
http//www.mostmerciful.com/understanding-bible-through-koran.pdf
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Peace Joel and welcome, welcome,
I've just recently realized that a lot of my questions could have been answered by reading the FM home page. There is a wealth of knowledge there. Be sure to take a look. You may also want to reference The Message. All the best to you in your quest for better understanding.
Much peace,
lilyfleur -
What Jesus was on earth is the expectation of God for all people. This makes the cross not something to be accepted at a distance, but a spiritual process that must be embraced as ongoing in the disciple of Jesus.
That?s a very interesting point Joel .
It?s fascinating to see how he has been grossly misunderstood over the years hmm.
Perhaps you can write an article about that?, tiz very interesting. !peace
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Peace "phoenix",
I also think that the bible's probably preaching sun worship.
JK- A certain part of it MAY although i havnt read tht one. The problem is tht the Bible aint the Word of GOD PER SE. GOD never spoke of having revealed something called "Bible/Biblos". This is a man made term. But the scriptures from Him includ the Torah, Psalms and Gospel. GOD Bless!
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Peace and welcome Joel,
Personally, I've never heard of Khaleel Mohammed or "the Middle East Quarterly", but what you quoted seems to be in line with the personality of traditional islam. I've found that Yusuf Ali's translation carries with it the same dogma of traditionalists. When I first started reading the qur'an, it was Ali's tranlsation that I had and was, honestly, completely turned off by it. The translation available here is excellent. I'd also recommend Muhammad Asad's translation for a literal translation and the QXP exposition for expanded meaning. Also, a very nice cross-reference and transliteration tool is available here. But with everything, essentially, it is God who guides. So it's best not to fall in love with any one translation or scholar because they all have their flaws and biases.
Peace,
Tay -
K- A certain part of it MAY although i havnt read tht one. The problem is tht the Bible aint the Word of GOD PER SE. GOD never spoke of having revealed something called "Bible/Biblos". This is a man made term. But the scriptures from Him includ the Torah, Psalms and Gospel. GOD Bless!
peace JK,
I really don't think that the Torah and Psalms and Gospels were written by God. Seriously. I think that they are mentioned in the quran, but the words probably mean something else.There is a lot of christian influence in traditional quran translations, because of the belief that the bible is an older version of the quran. I'm obviously not sure, though. -
Peace "phoenix",
peace JK,
I really don't think that the Torah and Psalms and Gospels were written by God. Seriously. I think that they are mentioned in the quran, but the words probably mean something else.There is a lot of christian influence in traditional quran translations, because of the belief that the bible is an older version of the quran. I'm obviously not sure, though.JK- I cannot agree with you entirely since the Torah has started to emerge by the first verse Gen 11 showing amazing mathemtical interlocks based on number 7 and also if you go and check my biblemaths post in submiteers/code-19 section youll see a phenomena where when the SAME FORMULA is used on Gen 11 and John 11 we get the constants "pi" and "e" repsectively BOTH to four signficant figures and BOTH neglecting the powers of ten. This is indeed amazing and shows with high probability that these two verses are from GOD. So no its not only the Quran. GOD Bless!
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peace
The fact that you are finding mathematical codes in the bible only proves that these codes can be found anywhere.
It's like looking finding patterns in grains of sand in a desert or stars in the sky.
Why were you looking for pi and e in the first place? I could say that if you multiply all the letters of this post you get my favorite number. Hallelujah, it's a miracle. -
Peace "phoenix",
peace
The fact that you are finding mathematical codes in the bible only proves that these codes can be found anywhere.
It's like looking finding patterns in grains of sand in a desert or stars in the sky.
Why were you looking for pi and e in the first place? I could say that if you multiply all the letters of this post you get my favorite number. Hallelujah, it's a miracle.JK- No these relations cant be found anywhere. Plz get rid of your prejudice and study the things i bring up for once. Heres the link
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13465.0
GOD Bless! -
Peace and welcome Joel,
Personally, I've never heard of Khaleel Mohammed or "the Middle East Quarterly", but what you quoted seems to be in line with the personality of traditional islam. I've found that Yusuf Ali's translation carries with it the same dogma of traditionalists. When I first started reading the qur'an, it was Ali's tranlsation that I had and was, honestly, completely turned off by it. The translation available here is excellent. I'd also recommend Muhammad Asad's translation for a literal translation and the QXP exposition for expanded meaning. Also, a very nice cross-reference and transliteration tool is available here. But with everything, essentially, it is God who guides. So it's best not to fall in love with any one translation or scholar because they all have their flaws and biases.
Peace,
TayTay,
Hmmm, interesting. I always thought that traditional Islam only did lip-service to being in the Judeo-Christian tradition, but no one actually looked at the Torah and New Testament for any other reason than to tear them apart or to try to point out inconsistencies - basically, only a surface reading.I took a peek at The Message, and I like it much better than the Ali translation I'm currently reading. There are places in Ali's text where he interjects hadiths as if they were part of the arabic. Perhaps when I can save a bit, I'll getm y hands on a copy.
peace
I think that the quran is completely independent of the bible. The quran uses some of the same stories and symbolism but I think that the messages are very different.
I also think that the bible's probably preaching sun worship.Ehhhhh, ok. So when the God of the Torah strikes Egypt with plagues, one of which is turning the land to darkness, and by implication shaming Ra the Egyptian sun god, it is really only to turn the text around and have it glorify the same god that it shamed earlier?? Please don't give me any ahistorical armchair comparative religion crap. If you definitively believe that, let's see some proof.
That?s a very interesting point Joel ).
It?s fascinating to see how he has been grossly misunderstood over the years hmm.
Perhaps you can write an article about that?, tiz very interesting. !peace
Perhaps, and I'm glad you find the topic interesting, but perhaps not yet. )
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I recommend you these books, they also go into judeo-christian books
http//www.ourbeacon.com/7101.html
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I recommend you these books, they also go into judeo-christian books
http//www.ourbeacon.com/7101.html
Arnold,
I took a glance at the article "Thus Speaks the Bible" and there is incorrect information in it, including but not limited to, the suggestion that the KJV was translated from the Latin Biblia Vulgata. Actually, the KJV was a translation from greek manuscripts received from the Greek Orthodox Church, hence the manuscript name Textus Receptus. It was also built upon several other translators' works, such as those who worked on the previous Bishop's Bible. But the Hebrew translation of the KJV is poor, not because of serious errors in manuscript evidence, but because the translators of the KJV did not have nearly the corpus of comparative materials at hand that modern translators have.
He also makes assumptions of exegesis without knowledge of the cultural context, such as suggesting that Genesis says that God has a body because it says man was "made in God's image." He also assumes that because it took 40 years to publish the Nag Hammadi Library and the Dead Sea Scrolls, it must have been tampered with. He assumed incorrectly. It largely had to do with snafus in international politics and funding problems.
This is what I meant in my original post about "evidence" of Biblical corruption that showed disdain for Judeo-Christian hermenuetics and people who should know better not doing their homework. It is as absurd as someone suggesting that the plural of majesty in the Quran's 1st person pronouns for God really means polytheism. brickwall