Tasreef/Crossreference understanding of Jesus's deeds---Miracle belief rejected

arnoldyasin

Now, can you, Tay and Arnold tell God, ?Sorry God you can?t do that. You can not change Laws?. Allah says He create what He wills. Can you guys tell God ?Sorry again, you can not create what you will, you can create only what is within the law?.

Peace Warner,

This is exactly the misunderstanding that is repeated over and over. I DO NOT SAY GOD CANNOT CHANGE HIS LAWS, I SAY HE HIMSELF HAS SAID HE WILL NOT CHANGE IT. HE CAN ALWAYS CHANGE HIS LAWS AS HE IS THE MOST POWERFUL. BUT HE KEEPS HIS PROMISES.

This is the biggest mistake people make. They believe when God holds Himself to certain promises, it means He is not All-Powerful. NONSENSE

I believe, as the Quran tells us, that God can do everything He wants too, He can anything He likes, changes what He wantsa too, NOTHING is beyond His Power.

BUT, my understanding of the Quran which I have layed out, is that God says Himself that He will not change His Decrees in the Universe as this is not necessary, He has created endless possibilities inside the creation that expresses His Will.

Rasul, you made the mistake by using the words that God cannot change His Laws, this is wrong, He can change what He wants to when He wants too.

The question is not if He can change His Laws, it is, does He change His Laws? And if so, why?

The summary of my understanding is

God is All-Powerful and can do anything.
He says in the Quran that He does not change His Decrees.
The Laws of Nature also fall under those Decrees.
The Arabic gives far more possibilities then is traditionaly presented through Biblical influence. This is ignored because of the common belief that God's Power is shown through miracles.
Miracles are not necessary as creation of the Laws is already the display of His Power, this is why He constantly refers to the workings of Nature as proof of His Power.
Throughout the Quran we see God making Promises to us, God can break these Promises if He Wills, but He is the Most Trustworthy. So He bounds Himself, OUT OF FREEWILL AND POWER, to keep these Promises.

Warner, It is not a so difficult subject when studying the Quran, it has much more to do with our God's concept then the Message given. We disagree on the matter if the Laws of Nature also fall under His Decrees, I believe it is very clear they do.

I have given parts of my examples on how the subject is explained. But these are already not accepted by you or completely ignored, also my questions you evaded.

Thus I believe it is better we agree to disagree on this subject, as our concept of nature and God's Image and His Workings are completely different, and thus we can reconcile on the subject.

The Quran is a Divine Constitution for Mankind, showing Him the way to Reality. It explains God and His Workings, but sadly, rarely do people listen...

Kitab-ul-Taqdeer (Book of Destiny) by G. A. Parwez
THE CONCEPT OF ALLAH

Allah has always been and will always be. He was Allah even before this Universe was created, He will be Allah even when this Universe exists no more. Therefore, ?Allah?s domain? is not only the created universe but also beyond. This is what the Quran refers to as the two worlds of Allah - Amr and Khalq. Khalq is the created universe while Amr is whatever is beyond. (7/54)

Law pertains to the world of Khalq. Two examples are, the universal truths of ?Cause & Effect?, and any creation being dependent on its constituent material. Amr relates to creation from nothingness. His determination to create from nothingness and His actions thereof run contrary to natural laws like cause and effect, creation within the universe, procreation, etc. Amr is based upon ?Allah?s will?. (22/14, 11/107, 5/1, 22/18, 21/31). See 2/117 (below), also 6/14 and 30/11.

Takhleeq - ?Khalaqun? literally means to measure, to assess the balance and ratio of things. Thus ?Khalaq? means to make something with the right balance and ratio of elements according to a specific measure. The domain of ?Amr? (creating from nothingness) is exclusive to Allah and Allah alone. Material resulting from ?Amr? may be, and is, used in various proportions to create by Nature as well as Man. Allah is the best creator in this particular sense (Khalq - 23/14, 37/125). He also improvises (35/1), either by creating something for the first time (?Abdaa?) or varying an existing formula. GHALIB put it aptly .... (1) Also, IQBAL (2)

Characteristics of the Domain of Amr This is the initial stage of creation. The chemistry of it all is beyond human comprehension and consequently, unquestionable. Allah used His exclusive power and privileges to create things (from nothingness) giving them their particular characteristics (24/45). He simply exercised His ?will?. Man is told that the universe was created ?rightfully? (16/30) not wrongfully (3/19). It is upto Man to delve into the mechanics of it all to arrive at the ?rightness? of the universe around him. Suffice to say that the reality and function of the Domain of Amr lies outside the extents of human comprehension and its concept of ?cause & effect?.

Having created the universe according to His own will, Allah introduced a great change in this cosmic program. Now, He bound His Amr in LAWS. This demands intense ponderance.

TAQDEER

The Arabic word ?QANOON (&#1606 (3) has not been used in the Quran in the meaning of LAW. It seldom appears even in contemporary Arabic literature. Instead, the Quran has employed a root more comprehensive than QANOON. It is Q-D-R with the basic meaning of a measure. ( &#1569 means I measured that thing; estimated. ( &#1569 means I measured the (one) thing against the (other) thing. ( &#1576 means I made clothes for him according to measurements. Therefore, ?taqdeer? has the sense of something being fit to measurements. (&#1585 is a model standard or measure. ( &#1585 means He/It proved true to measure (expected standard). (&#1585 is a person of reasonable average of height. (&#1585 is a person who forecasts the yield possible from a particular corn field.

It follows, therefore, that (&#1585 ?Qadrun? or (&#1585 ?Taqdeer? means a measure or a standard; also, of something to be of the right measurements, standard and estimate.

Since absolute control is required to make something according to a particular standard, ( &#1569 means I had control (and power) to make that thing according to my standard/measure.

Allah?s ?AMR? Bound to Laws
It has been stated that the ?Domain of ?Amr? functions under the absolute power and will of Allah. There are no binding laws. In the ?Domain of ?Khalq?, however, Allah?s will is bound by laws (33/38 Allah?s ?amr? was bound by standards & measures) and thus ?Allah set a standard to everything? (65/3)

This needs illustration. Liquid water is transformed to solid at freezing point and reverses at a particular temperature. It flows downhill and adapts its form to the container it is in. High temperature evaporates water into vapor which, being lighter than air, rise up as clouds. At a set temperature, clouds liquefy back into water, which, being heavier than air, falls down as rain. These facts are the ?measures / standards of water?. Another example of the ?standards of water? is that in the right quantity, it is a thirst-quenching and life-giving commodity whereas in larger quantities it can even kill (e.g., drowning). A date tree yields fruit in years but banana takes only a few months. A cactus seed breeds a thorny, fruitless plant whereas a mango seed yields an exotic fruit.

Laws of Nature
It is not difficult to see, then, that (&#1585 ?Qadr? of the Quran is nothing but the Laws of Nature. Therefore, 65/3 means Allah has set standards / measures to everything in the universe. These laws govern the creation, growth and death (or transformation) of all things. Consider the following from the Quran

Regarding the birth of a human child, it says that it starts with the semen being deposited in a safe place (the female ovum) and in (77/21, 22) it stays there for a known measure. Obviously, this refers to the period a fetus stays in the mother?s womb. (according to Nature?s law). The Quran goes on to say in 77/23 ? these measures have been set by Us and We are the best of standard setters?. Incidentally, this verse illustrates the meaning of ( ) i.e., the one who sets standards. A variation of this word (&#1585 has been used as (&#1585 in (25/54).

About the fetus it says elsewhere (13/ that occasionally a fetus cannot achieve its full and complete growth and that Gad has set standards to all things.

About rain the Quran says (in 43/11, 23/1 ?and We bring down rain from clouds according to a measure?. Elsewhere (13/17), it says ?after rains, streams flow according to their standards.?
Produce from the Earth is mentioned in (42/27) ?Its produce is according to a measure set by Allah?s will. ( is explained a little further on in this book). The four seasons for harvesting & farming are mentioned in (41/10) ?Allah has set standards for four harvests (of the Earth).?
Summing up, it says about all universe in (25/2) ?He created all things and set a measure to them.?. More precisely in (54/49) ?Surely, We created everything according to a measure.? Special attention should be paid to two verses from Sura ?Al-Aala? ?Allah initiated all creation, then gave everything a suitable proportion, set standards to them and programmed them for growth according to those measures.?
Let us now look at references where (&#1585 is even more clearly used in today?s sense of ?Laws of Nature?. Even a school child knows about the Earth?s rotation causing day and night according to set laws. This enables us to forecast, with certain precision, sunrise and sunset. The Quran says in (73/20) ?Allah has set standards to day & night.? Also, about the moon (10/5) ?Allah has set stages for it.?

The meaning of (&#1585 may be very clear by the following ?The sun is traveling towards its station. This is the measure set by the all-knowing and almighty (Allah).? Elsewhere (41/12), it talks about the heavenly bodies in general, and about stars in particular, and then says, ?These are the standards set by the all-powerful and all-knowing (Allah)?.

This illustrates then, that (&#1585 means Laws of Nature and NOT Man?s destiny.

One may ponder here on the point that the above mentioned verses say ?Allah?s taqdeer? (standards set by Allah). Therefore, it will be factually erroneous to say ?Man?s taqdeer? because Man has not (and cannot) set standards to the universe.

The truth of the matter is that so many of our problems arise because of our misuse of words and their meanings. The only way to comprehending the Quran is to ascertain the correct meanings of its vocabulary, terminology and concepts.

These taqadeer (standards, measures - law of Nature) of Allah?s are pre-determined (it was done in the domain of ?Amr?) and they are ?written? in the ?book of Nature / Universe?. This is referred to as ?the clearly set book?. It says in Sura An?aam ?Allah knows what is in the seas and on land. He knows every leaf that falls off a tree. He also knows even a grain in the darkness of the Earth. The truth is that each and every thing (in detail) is there in the clearly-set book.? (6/59) That is to say that standards have been set to all things in the universe and are there. (17/5 ((for anyone to read if they so wish)). This is physics (science). That is why these laws are called ( &#1605 in (15/21) and (15/24) i.e., laws which can be discovered. Adam (mankind) is said to have been given ?the knowledge of names?. This is nothing but the knowledge of the universe.

Laws of Nature are Permanent
Law is defined as If.......... then ............ always

A ?law? is different from an ?order? ?Law? is based upon its consistency (if you do this, that will ALWAYS happen). ?Order? is a decision. A master issues a variety of orders to his servants. One order may differ in kind from the previous one. Therefore, ?orders? are decisions which are subject to change. But when an order (decision) becomes consistent (with no possibility of change), it becomes law (unchangeable decision). Allah?s decisions about the universe (standards and measures) are unchangeable. The permanence of laws of Nature provides the foundation for the sciences. This ever-reliable foundation of permanent laws enables (?tawakkal? in the Quranic terminology) the earthlings to take successful trips to the Moon. In fact, the entire structure of our wonderful universe stands on the permanence, consistency and reliability of the laws of Nature.

Allah?s Word ( &#1607 and Allah?s Way ( &#1607
Both of these expressions in the Quran have been used to mean Allah?s law. ?Kalima? is the formula (theory) while ?SunnatAllah? is the practical form the ?Kalimatullah? takes. Both of these are permanent (6/34, 6/116, 18/27 and also 10/64) for ?Kalimatullah? and (33/62, 40/85, 48/23) for ?SunnatAllah?. Not only are these laws permanent but they don?t even change course (17/77, 35/43)! It has been mentioned above that Allah?s ?Amr (will) becomes ( &#1575 ?set standards & measures? in the created universe. This is referred to as ?SunnatAllah? in (33/3, i.e., it becomes unchangeable law.

HAQ
We have also said earlier that according to the Quran Allah has created the universe with ?Haq? (productive, beneficial and realizable results). This purpose of the universe is mentioned in (10/82) ?Allah proves the validity of ?Haq? through His laws?, and also in (42/24) ?Allah, through His laws, removes ?Baatel? (the wrong) and establishes ?Haq? (the right).? This phenomenon (realization of beneficial & productive results through His laws) naturally requires eons (33/5, 70/4). But their pace can be wondrously quickened if Man joins in the action by studying the physical laws of Nature and adopting Allah?s laws for human society - (see ?Islam Kya Hai?? (What is Islam?) or ?Islam A challenge to Religion? by the same author for a detailed treatment of this point) The Quran says in (65/3) ?Surely, Allah sees to it that His Amr (Will) is realized. That was the purpose of establishing standards & measures for all things.

The created universe has no freedom of choice Since Laws of Nature are permanent, the universe has to follow them anyway. All things in the universe do that faithfully (please see 16/49, 2/116 and 57/1).

Let me give you a summary of what has been said so far

Allah has formulated and established laws for all things in the universe, exercising absolute control.
The universe is bound to follow the laws of Nature.
These laws are discoverable ( &#1605 by Man (2/34). The Quran summarizes this in (45/13) ?Allah has made the entire universe conquerable (you can harness it). There are clear signs in this for those who care to think?.

Allah bound Himself!
We have seen a great change in Allah?s great design of things; i.e., His ?Amr - absolute power and choice - transformed to building permanent Law of Nature. In other words, Allah bound Himself! Shocking, isn?t it? But, it IS true. We witness it routinely. For example, see (6/12 & 6/54) where He says ?He has made Rahma compulsory for Himself. (4) Also, see (10/103) ?We have the obligation to protect the convinced. (5) This has also been termed as ?Allahs Promise? in (16/38, 31/9, 31/33, 35/5, 40/55 & 40/77). Also to be noted is the declaration that He always does, and will, keep His promise (30/6, 3/193).

Allah?s Promises
His promises are nothing but His laws and ?keeping promises? means the laws are permanent and consistent. The Quran contains a significant example of Allah?s voluntary adherence to His own Laws. One of nature?s Laws is procreation of animals and humans through the mating of a male and a female. The Quran rejects the Christian belief of the virgin birth (Christ being son of Allah) with a wonderfully logical argument. It says that despite being the absolutely free and all-powerful initiator and originator of the universe, He bound it and Himself in laws. The law requires a male and female for procreation. How can anyone be Allah?s son when He has no wife? (6/102). In other words, He would have broken His own law by getting Himself a son, but He did not!

A criticism Answered
This gives rise to the argument that a ?law abiding Allah? ceases to be the ?all-powerful Allah?. But this is misleading. One does not cease to have power if one submits to a law voluntarily. For instance, if you are made to, against your will, have a daily 3- mile early morning walk, you are forced. But if you decide to do it, on your own accord, you are free. One who keeps promises and adopts certain principles in life, is not powerless. On the contrary, such a person is termed a man of honor, upholder of principles and reliable. Therefore, Allah doesn?t lose any power by binding himself in His own Laws. In fact, such a Allah is worthy of being Allah. He is a Allah who can be trusted because His laws are reliable. Despite having the power to do so, He doesn?t break laws. This concept of Allah comes from ?Din?.

Religion?s Concept of Allah

The religionists cannot or will not accept this. The Allah of Religion as mentioned earlier, is a remnant of the early days of Man?s intellectual growth. Now, Man has come of age and the Allah of ?Din? can be appreciated. But, sadly, the religionists don?t want this concept to get popular as it threatens their privileged position of ?mediators? between Man and Allah. This allows them to exercise authority over people. For this very purpose, the clergy propagated the concept of autocracy and hereditary monarchy. They likened kings to Allah where both are bound by no law. People under the influence of such clergy and monarchy can only follow instructions, not observe any laws. Such is the religion?s grip on the human mind that even mutineers and freedom fighters like to see Allah as an absolute ruler, much in the mold of an earthly king! This dualism (to have a law-abiding human society and a lawless Allah) is the hallmark of religion. ?Ad-Din? wants to replace it with the monotheism of a law-abiding Allah and an equally law-abiding Man!.

Ghalib Using the simile of a veiled lady who is using a mirror to make her face up, Ghalib refers to the Creator who goes on to beautify the universe.

Iqbal The same idea is presented using a different simile of a hitherto not fully untapped plant of wine-bearing juice.

The Arabic word ( ) ?Qanoon? is commonly understood and translated into Urdu as ?law?. Note that this work was originally intended for an Urdu readership.

The Arabic work ?Kataba? literally means to write (here ?has written or wrote). Since writing makes something permanent, it is used to refer to a permanent decision (law). This is supported by the well known verse about fasting 2/183.

The Arabic word (&#1606 ?mo?min? is popularly translated into English as ?believer? which, to the author, is not a true representation. Even ?faithful? does not carry over the meaning of mo?min. This very important word springs from the root a-m-n having the basic concept of peace of mind and heart resulting from being totally convinced of something because of rational knowledge. Hence the translation of mo?mineen as ?the convinced?.

unknownuser

Peace Arnold, all

Rasul, you made the mistake by using the words that God cannot change His Laws, this is wrong, He can change what He wants to when He wants too.

It was un-necessary to mention this as I have reviewed my understanding of the issue of law. However, I would again say it is only our way of understanding different things how we perceive, for example

God has made some decisions for himself as well, and when I say

God cannot be unjust.

You take it as
2. God is unable to be unjust.

May be you consider it as
3. God can be unjust.

Another decision of God for himself as you mentioned God has made Rahmah compulsory for himself. And if I say God cannot do otherwise, again its your way of understanding how you perceive it.

And ofcourse no one can ask God that why He made such decisions for himself/ for universe and all. We cannot ask God WHY doesn't mean we are unable to observe and understand the reseasons (WHYs) of these dicisions.

With Respect, Hamsa

warner

Dear Brother Hamsa

We are all here to learn. Even if we may have differences in opinions and understanding I learn a lot from the many members in this site. None of us are right all the time.

By this heated debates we learn a lot and it makes us to go read and understand the Quraan more and study verses in a way we never understood before.

I am sorry in the heat of the debate if I said anything unwarranted. I am moved by your sincerity and humility and that is something I learned from you today.

I use Y Ali or Pickthal since those are the 2 translations I have in my PC with the search function and extras. I do not agree with any translation other than the literal , with the Quraan as the dictionary and explanation. I try not to draw from post quranic sources.

Warm regards

arnoldyasin

Salaam Warner,

We use mostly the same technics, but it is our mind that eventualy decides the interpretations. Discussions are always good as they make you sharp.

unknownuser

Peace bro Warner

I do not agree with any translation other than the literal , with the Quraan as the dictionary and explanation. I try not to draw from post quranic sources.

Thanks for you kind words. While I agree with you in general, just would add the following

Literal translations also contain contradictions.
Our translations/explanations are correct as long as they do not create any contradiction in Quran.

With Respect, Hamsa

unknownuser

Literal translations also contain contradictions.

Salam bro

Can you show us an example please?

Thanks

warner

Salaam Ahmed

Possibly Hamsa meant the available literal translations.

unknownuser

Peace Hamsa,

From this I conclude that everything in the universe has surrendered to God's will. Whatever laws God has made for them they are following it. Or perhaps if you want to say, Whatever God has commanded/assigned duties/given task to them to do they are following that. And they do not go against His laws.

Of course everything in the universe surrenders to God's will and follow His laws that are made for them. That is not the topic of this discussion. This does not mean that there are no OTHER LAWS that have not yet been discovered, and when the universe is subjected to those laws by His will, by the command of "Be", the universe surrenders to those laws also and follows them also, for example, sea parting, chopped up birds coming to life, humans sleeping for hundreds of years etc. Just because we don't understand those laws does not mean they don't exist.

In al-qur'aan, God tells us that He made human being FROM HARDENED CLAY (1526, 1528, 1533), LIKE POTTERY (5514). This shows that there is a law of nature that God uses to do this by His command "Be". He uses that law rarely which does not mean that law does not exist and creation of human being from hardened clay is impossible just because we cannot understand that law yet. There are some laws of nature that are common and some very rare, and using those rare laws God can and does do certain things that appear miraculous to us because we do not understand those laws yet.

Another example is the law God uses to resurrect us after death, one example of which was mentiond in 2259, IN THIS WORLDLY LIFE. The guy died for a hundred years and turned to bones, and was then resurrected by God. This clearly shows that a certain law of nature was used by God to do this by His command "Be". Just because that law of nature is not used commonly in our day to day existance does not mean that law does not exist, or that God cannot and does not do certain things rarely. It is just us that do not understand those laws yet, which when used cause things to happen that appear as "miracles".

unknownuser

Peace Arnold, all,

I DO NOT SAY GOD CANNOT CHANGE HIS LAWS, I SAY HE HIMSELF HAS SAID HE WILL NOT CHANGE IT.

BUT, my understanding of the Quran which I have layed out, is that God says Himself that He will not change His Decrees in the Universe as this is not necessary

I have already shown in an earlier post how the examples Arnold's gives from al-qur'aan to support his conjectures highlighted in red do not mean what he says they mean. Whenever God mentions His "sunnah", He mentions in a context and it is THE WAY MENTIONED IN THAT CONTEXT THAT HE NEVER CHANGES, for example, giving evil respite for some time and then destroying it. Where He mentions His words never changing, IT IS THE WORDS MENTIONED IN THAT CONTEXT THAT HE NEVER CHANGES.

The word "Be" is mentioned as the truth, and using that word, God can create any law He wants thus performing whatever He wants, whenever He wants. Some laws are used commonly and consistently, but other laws which are not yet understood or known, are used rarely to perform certain things that appear as "miracles", just because we do not see them happening more often. This does not mean that those laws do not exist or those rare things cannot or will not happen.

Arnold (mis)interprets by not using context to define what "sunnah" or "word" of God means, and gives those words invented meanings based on his pre-conceived notions. One can use the same kind of logic and say that His way also includes creation of a human from hardened clay, a certain sea parting at a certain time, or certain chopped up birds coming to life again at a certain time, or for a man dying for a hundred years and then getting resurrected, or humans sleeping for hundreds of years. All these things happened due to His word "Be" governed by as yet undiscovered laws of nature. The only difference is that these things do not happen commonly.

THERE ARE CERTAIN LAWS THAT WE DO NOT UNDERSTAND THAT THE GOD USES RARELY.
RARE USAGE OF THOSE OTHER LAWS DOES NOT MEAN THAT THE COMMONLY USED LAWS HAVE CHANGED.
CERTAIN PHENOMENON HAVE OCCURRED RARELY DUE TO APPLICATION OF THOSE OTHER LAWS.

The God uses certain laws of nature commonly and consistently, but on rare occasions, He performs certain actions that appear miraculous to us, governed by OTHER LAWS which are as yet not understood by us.

NOTHING IN THE SIGNS OF AL-QUR'AAN CONTRADICTS THAT, AND THE OCCURRENCE OF CERTAIN INEXPLICABLE RARE PHENOMENON DESCRIBED IN AL-QUR'AAN ACTUALLY PROVES THE EXISTENCE OF SUCH LAWS OF NATURE.

For example, let's say there are 4 laws that govern the known commonly occurring natural phenomenon. That does not mean that there cannot be 4 other laws that we do not understand as yet, which The God rarely uses to perform things which appear as "miracles". The existence of those 4 OTHER LAWS does not mean that the 4 common laws have changed; they are just DIFFERENT laws.

He says in the Quran that He does not change His Decrees.
The Laws of Nature also fall under those Decrees.

First of all the statement # 3 is incorrect, according to the context of usage of God's words in al-qur'aan, as I have already shown in an earlier post.

For argument's sake, let's assume that this "twisting" is correct, the logical question will be

IS ARNOLD ALL-KNOWING AND HAS HE DISCOVERED AND UNDERSTOOD ALL LAWS OF NATURE ?

If the answer to the above questions is NO, which it is, and the fact that rare occurrences of certain phenomenon have been described in al-qur'aan, then the INESCAPABLE AND IRREFUTABLE logical conclusion will be that there are OTHER LAWS that are not yet understood or discovered, that could explain the rare occurrences of some things, which appear as "miracles".

653 talks about God decreeing for everything its fate. This does not rule out His performing certain things that do not commonly occur governed by OTHER UNKNOWN LAWS. For example He decreed the fate of a particular sea to part at a certain time, or for certain chopped up birds to come to life again at a certain time, or for a man to die for a hundred years and then get resurrected, or some humans sleeping for hundreds of years, or for a human being to form from hardened clay at a certain time, and all those things happened just as they were decreed.

Just like God has set a measure for the creation of a human from a sperm, He also uses His "QADR" for creation of a human from hardened clay, or resurrection of a human from dust and bones and fragments.

The truth of the matter is that so many of our problems arise because of our misuse of words and their meanings. The only way to comprehending the Quran is to ascertain the correct meanings of its vocabulary, terminology and concepts.

Very well said ! If only Arnold can apply this same advice to himself !!

It says in Sura An?aam ?Allah knows what is in the seas and on land. He knows every leaf that falls off a tree. He also knows even a grain in the darkness of the Earth. The truth is that each and every thing (in detail) is there in the clearly-set book.? (6/59) That is to say that standards have been set to all things in the universe and are there.

All 659 says is that The God KNOWS each and every thing that happens and has recorded it in detail. It does not mean what is highighted in red above. The God knew about a certain sea parting at a certain time, or certain chopped up birds coming to life again at a certain time, or for a man dying for a hundred years and then getting resurrected, or certain humans sleeping for hundreds of years, or a human being forming from hardened clay at a certain time, and He recorded all those details. 1758 reiterates the same concept.

As the reader can clearly see, there is nothing in al-qur'aan that contradicts certain rare phenomenon occurring because of God's command "Be" and governed by as yet unknown laws of nature. Those rare phenomenon also happen by His "QADR", and are also recorded in detail. The fact that some rare phenomenon have been described in al-qur'aan is a proof of their real and literal occurrence, and is also a proof that there are as yet unknown laws of nature which govern those phenomenon. Those laws of nature do exist, and thus the occurrence of those rare phenomenon does not violate any laws of nature; it is only that we have not understood those laws yet.

Tay

Peace Tanveer, all,

I know we sit on opposite sides of this topic but I just wanted to add a few comments...

The fact that some rare phenomenon have been described in al-qur'aan is a proof of their real and literal occurrence, and is also a proof that there are as yet unknown laws of nature which governed those phenomenon.

Their mention is not proof in itself. In fact, there is no proof that indicates whether or not a "rare phenomenon" is to be taken literally or metaphorically. So, your conclusion here is false. It is, and always will be, a matter of interpretation and the framework one perceives as the structure of life.

Peace,
Tay

unknownuser

Peace Tay,

I have already shown in a previous thread how Arnold's "metaphorical" interpretations have logical flaws and they don't follow the grammar and the arabic sentence structure of the relevant signs. Please see the following for some examples (from #159 to #163)

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13174.msg110836#msg110836

Is the resurrection of a dead man after 100 years from his bones (2259) metaphorical ?

In 2259, is the resurrected man's saying "I know now that God is capable of all things" referring to God's "metaphorical" capabilities ?

For a relevant discussion (#78 to #86)

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8627.msg113433#msg113433

Is forming a human being from "hardened clay"(1526, 1528, 1533)/"sticky mud" (3711), "like pottery" (5514)metaphorical ?

Is chopping birds and their coming back to life (2260) and making a bird from clay and its coming to life (5110) metaphorical ?

Is certain humans sleeping for hundreds of years and then waking up (1818-19) metaphorical ?

edited to correct the second link

Tay

Peace Tanveer,

I'm not defending any single point of view, but speaking in general terms. If a person attains guidance from a metaphorical understanding of a written text, and there is no physical evidence to state otherwise, then you really have no argument against that person.

Peace,
Tay

unknownuser

Peace Tay,

If a person attains guidance from a metaphorical understanding of a written text, and there is no physical evidence to state otherwise, then you really have no argument against that person.

How can one attain guidance from a metaphorical understanding of certain words/signs when the grammar, context, and logic of that written text makes a metaphorical interpretation of those words/signs impossible ?

If you believe otherwise then please prove how the signs referenced in my above post can have a metaphorical understanding, without violating logic, grammar, and context, and without a nonsensical English rendering of those signs ?

savage_carrot

Peace bro Tanveer,

How can one attain guidance from a metaphorical understanding of certain words/signs when the grammar, context, and logic of that written text makes a metaphorical interpretation of those words/signs impossible ?

We are all different bro, some will guidance from the literal and some from the symbolic and some from both yet. The point of contention starts when people get irritated/annoyed at the other for believing in the symbolic aspect or the literal and start being condescending as to which side is "better/more rational etc". Then everyone gets defensive. This entire "ongoing battle" about symbolic vs. literal has always been around, at least on this forum and I think it may be time to realise that God isn't going to punish anyone for their explanations of a particular verse being symbolic or literal as long as they have well reasoned evidence that they think holds to back it up (not touching the law giving verses for obvious reasons, referring to the examples of verses in this discussion only). One can keep on refining their point of view but I personally dislike it when people start taking sides and being belligerent about their opinions. Not saying that you do this of course, just a general comment on the states of these threads.

I learnt a lot from Tay back in the day when we had this discussion and he was the first one to point out about the diversity issue. I maintain that it can be both symbolic and literal depending on the verse in question.

edit to add

I forgot to touch on your question, rambling as I was...the metaphorical understanding can be derived from verses that talk about changing people into pigs for example. Meaning that their natures became piglike etc. Or one can take it literally, as no one can really prove that some people weren't changed into pigs at that time. Of course an entire battle can start right now, as to how which side is more rational and which side is keeping to the clear meanings, which side uses their minds and which side just craves to see a "miracle", which side is logical and which isn't etc. Who gives a flying pig I say. If you have the reasoning behind your claim and you learnt something from it, that's what matters. I don't believe that either side is causing harm to themselves. The key is to learn something from it I suppose whether that happens by seeing some people as pigs or those with the attitudes of one, imo.

unknownuser

Peace Sis, all

Dear sis thanks for sharing your thoughts. After refining my own views I also find myself in agreement with you. Also 1736 and 3918 ask us to follow the best. Literal translations make sense to some and metaphorical to others. More important thing is the way/system of life God has prescribed for us to follow. Quran is like the universe to me, different people find different things in it. 37 is also important that reminds us where our focus should be placed. The Book is understandable for a lay man and for a scientist at the same time. We do not know after few hundred years the interpretation of Quran would be completely different and things which seem metaphorical to us change to literal and literal to metaphorical.

Just some thoughts!

Thanks to all of you.
Hamsa

savage_carrot

Peace bro RH,

You're most welcome and I think what you posted makes sense .

warner

Peace

I am in agreement with Tanveer with regard to the fact that there can not be two interpretations; real and metaphorical. Also if any interpretations of the verse creates logical fallacies that can not be correct.

Salaam Arnold

My opinion is that the miracles/signs performed by the Messengers were not exclusively to prove the existence of God or the power of God which a person with understanding can see from nature if guided. I think the miracles were mainly performed by Messengers to establish that they were true messengers of God and not charlatans or false Messengers. In the case of Moses as in 2626-34 the signs establish him with an audience with Pharaoh and certain respect. Without the signs Moses would have been treated with ridicule and possibly the threats of Pharaoh carried out.

warner

Peace Hamsa

I thought you might be interested in the following verse. It may be relevant to the other verse we discussed earlier.

4 133

Yusuf Ali If it were His will He could destroy you O mankind and create another race for He hath power this to do.

Transliteration Iy yasya' yuzhibkum ayyuhan na_su wa ya'ti bi a_kharin(a), wa ka_nalla_hu 'ala_ za_lika qadira_(n).

Also I thought if Allah is subjected by the natural laws the following is an empty threat.

25 45
Yusuf Ali Hast thou not turned thy vision to thy Lord? how He doth prolong the Shadow! If He willed He could make it stationary! Then do We make the sun its guide

warner

Peace

I guess there is another way to look at the laws of nature.

Did Allah name natural phenomena as Laws of Nature? No, we named as such. Allah never called these ?Law?.

For Allah natural phenomena is a not natural phenomenon as for man. The natural phenomena are His creation and are His slave. Be it the sun, climate, light, gravity or anything in the earth and the space, it is His slave. We are subjected to natural phenomena since our control of such is minimal. Allah creates and controls nature and it is subjected to Him. Man submits to natural laws whereas nature submits to Allah. Therefore they are not laws for Him just His obedient slaves.

unknownuser