Hajj means Annual Global Debate--Explanation using Tasreef/Crossreference
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Peace,
1st of all what may seem as a forced interpretation to some may not appear so to others so its relative. The only way to solve this issue is scientific analysis. If you claim that your following the exact same proceures as bro Arnold referring to classic Arabic dictionaries, taking into account context and grammar then it would surprise me if boith of you wont come to approximately the same or very close conlusions at most in a couple of years. 2ndly by your statement above i though you meant that you dont want the interpretation of the Quran but the Quran itself(it sure looked tht way) which ofcourse makes no sense. 3rdly i dont think QXP focuses on spiritual but the scientific/rational interpretation of the Quran. GOD Bless! -
Peace,
If you claim that your following the exact same proceures as bro Arnold referring to classic Arabic dictionaries, taking into account context and grammar then it would surprise me if boith of you wont come to approximately the same or very close conlusions at most in a couple of years
You're are right. For instance Ayman and I have come to very, very close conclusions. But its sometimes those little things left that just pick at you. I also wish it didn't take years.
Now, Arnold I may disagree on your point of view of the world eventually coming to the Quran system. However, I would like some reasons for why you discount pilgrimage and if pilgrimage and debate can exist in the same context. I told you my bias was that I always saw debate as the source of jidaal. Can you explain how hajj's meaning of debate can be reconciled with jidaal. What about the hijj that we all owe to God. Is that a debate? Don't these debates go on all the time, as another brother pointed out even here on this net. What is the benefit of debate, how is it positive and how can it not be considered jidaal?
Godbless,
Anwar -
Salaam Anwer,
The difference between the debate here on the Forum and the Hajj I believe is the subjects and the scale. On this forum we discuss things on a personal scale, they affect personal lives of the members and viewers, we discuss interpretations and so on. But these discussions do not solve wars or raise fundings for hungerinfected regions. I believe the Hajj is meant for Global-scale discussions. And I believe we can avoid jidaal/quarreling by appointing arbiters, so that it remains in the positive direction and the disputes can be solved. What we owe to God is to gain peace on Earth, be one again as He had created us in the past. As for the benefits of Hajj conference, Muslims of all over the whole world come together, in like what you said, Quranic gatherings, to discuss all sorts of society issues, to solve problems and add positive actions to humanity.
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Peace,
First, my name is Anwar not Anwer. It's okay, I just wanted to correct that mistake.
Second, I had an enlightenment just now. The Quran says there is to be no jidaal during hajj. If we are to understand hajj correctly in this context then we cannot understand it in anyway that includes jidaal. I have always translated jidaal as arguing or disputing. And some here tried to distinguish that from debate. However, if we look at 16125 (Thanks for pointing this out Damon ), We read
"?nvite to the way of your lord with wisdom and excellent/beautiful preaching/admonition. And argue with them (jaadil-hum) in ways that are best and most gracious/beautiful."
The noun of jaadala is jidaal, showing that jidaal can be done in an excellent, beautiful and most gracious way. That means that jidaal is just a dispute or the act of giving mutual statements and rebutals.
If we take that into consideration we cannot distinguish jidaal from hajj (as argument) in the context of the Quran. Literally hajj/hajjah may be more about logical debate, but jidaal is just dispute or arguing and includes logical dispute and illogical dispute. Therfore hajj falls under jidaal (as productive as logical debate may be) if we see it as debate, quranically.
Therefore in the Quranic context and through the Classical Arabic context hajj as debate falls under jidaal and this disallows our understanding hajj as debate when the Quran mentions that there is to be no jidaal during the hajj. Therefore we should only understand this word as pilgrimage, the journey to a respected/important place for a respected/important reason.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Salaam all
Muslims of all over the whole world come together, in like what you said, Quranic gatherings,
Hajj is an invitation by submitters to mankind, not just believers. Since jidaal, as appears in the quraan, is mostly on religious matters, this should be avoided.
Again, since hajj is a call to people, it cannot have a religious meaning like "pilgrimage". It is meant to discuss our worldly matters and well being of nation of all creed (2 27-2
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Peace,
Samia, How does 2127-128 indicate that the hajj is an invitation by those who claim faith in the Quran to the rest of mankind? Where are the clues that you have that make you think this? From what I see it is the place where believers in the Quran and in Abraham's religion(God bless him) come together to praise God and strengthen each other and our ties so that we can witness the benefit of this convention of godly people. It is here that we are to decorate each other, slaughter the sacrifical animals and partake of them together and praise and celebrate God through the various traditions that we use to praise our forefathers, celebrating him with bigger celebration than we give to our forefathers.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace Anwar, Arnold, all,
I believe she is referring to 2226-28
2226 - talks about Al bayt
2227 says its for Annas
Also look at 396-97, it'd definitely for mankind
396 Inna awwala baytin wudiAAa lilnnasi lallathee bibakkata mubarakan wahudan lilAAalameena
396 The first house established for the people is the one in Bakk'a, blessed, and a guidance for the worlds.
397 Feehi ayatun bayyinatun maqamu ibraheema waman dakhalahu kana aminan walillahi AAala alnnasi hijju albayti mani istataAAa ilayhi sabeelan waman kafara fainna Allaha ghaniyyun AAani alAAalameena
397 In it are clear signs the trial spot of Abraham. And whoever enters it will be secure. And God is owed from the people to make Pilgrimage to the Sanctuary, whoever can make a path to it. And whoever rejects, then God has no need of the worlds.
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Peace,
396 Inna awwala baytin wudiAAa lilnnasi lallathee bibakkata mubarakan wahudan lilAAalameena
I have a different interpretation of this verse. I think the bi before bakkata should be pronouced elongatedly as a ya, (in the Quran kasrah and ya are used interchangeably). I think that seeing it as bi as in with/in is an interpretation of the Quran and not the way it was and always has been.
Secondly belief and faith in God is a call to all mankind period. So it is obvious that what the Quran calls for mankind to do, only the faithful will do. Look at all of the other positions where the Quran says yaa ayuhaa annaasu, mankind is not doing all these things, nor will he eventually. Even belief in the Quran is for all mankind, yet all mankind has not and will not accept the Quran. Saying that they will is like saying that there will be no disbelievers and voids all of the passages in the Quran that deal with disbelievers. Let's not let extreme optimism and humanism interfere with our understanding of the Quran especially with a phras that has many other uses throughout the Quran and does not fit into the idea of all mankind accepting what the Quran has to say to mankind.
Everything in the Quran is a call out to the faithful in God among mankind, and a call to mankind for him to be faithful to God. The addressing of believers specifically and mankind specifically does not make the commandments that follow directed just to the believers or all of mankind (believers or not). The whole of the Quran consists of an address to all mankind, addresses to the last prophet, to different communities within humanity and to those who have chosen to be faithful to God amidst all of the communities of mankind. The faithful accept the Quran and whereas the Quran tells for instance Jews and Christians to mantain their God given rites he tells all of the believers no matter what previous tradition or if having no previous tradition to make pilgrimage to God's houses. I would hope to see Jews who only follow the words of Moses and God's prophets (including Christ, God bless them all) having also accepted the Quran making this pilgrimage side by side with me, as well as Christians who only follow the words of Christ.
That is the way I see it.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace Arnold,
Nice article ).
Which sources did you use to study the history of Mecca?
I read an interesting article that said Hajj/debate was actually held somewhere else.
Assuming that a Quran alone state does materialize, does the location of the hajj/debate matter?
group
peace
Why must there be a state. Why is everyone always interested in a state. There is a sunni state in Saudi Arabia and a Shia one in Iran and now we have to find a Koranic state? Why can't we just do what the Koran ordered the prophet to do and just preach and warn mankind.
2256 There is no compulsion in religion, for the right way is clearly from the wrong way. Whoever therefore rejects the forces of evil and believes in God, he has taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way, for God is All Hearing and Knowing.
1682 But if they turn away from you, your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message .
6107 Yet if God had so willed, they would not have ascribed Divinity to aught besides Him; hence, We have not made you their keeper, nor are you a guardian over them.
479-80 Say'Whatever good betides you is from God and whatever evil betides you is from your own self and that We have sent you to mankind only as a messenger and all sufficing is God as witness. Whoso obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys God. And for those who turn away, We have not sent you as a keeper."
1128 He (Noah) said "O my people! think over it! If I act upon a clear direction from my Lord who has bestowed on me from Himself the Merciful talent of seeing the right way, a way which you cannot see for yourself, does it follow that we can force you to take the right path when you definitely decline to take it??
1753-54 And tell my servants that they should speak in a most kindly manner. Verily, Satan is always ready to stir up discord between men; for verily; Satan is mans foe .... Hence, We have not sent you with power to determine their Faith.
21107-109 (O Prophet?) 'We have not sent you except to be a mercy to all mankind" Declare, "Verily, what is revealed to me is this, your God is the only One God, so is it not up to you to bow down to Him?' But if they turn away then say, "I have delivered the Truth in a manner clear to one and all, and I know not whether the promised hour is near or far."
2267 To every people have We appointed ceremonial rites which they observe; therefore, let them not wrangle over this matter with you, but bid them to turn to your Lord. You indeed are rightly guided. But if they still dispute you in this matter, `God best knows what you do."
24.54. Say "Obey God, and obey the Messenger. but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message).
8821 22; And so, exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe.
4828 He it is Who has sent forth His Messenger with the Guidance and the Religion of Truth, to the end that tie make it prevail over every religion, and none can bear witness to the Truth as God does.
3616 17 (Three Messengers to their people) Said, "Our Sustainer knows that we have indeed been sent unto you, but we are not bound to more than clearly deliver the Message entrusted to us.'
3941 Assuredly, We have sent down the Book to you in right form for the good of man. Whoso guided himself by it does so to his own advantage, and whoso turns away from it does so at his own loss. You certainly are not their keeper.
426 48 And whoso takes for patrons others besides God, over them does God keep a watch. Mark, you are not a keeper over them. But if they turn aside from you (do not get disheartened), for We have not sent you to be a keeper over them; your task is but to preach ....
6412 Obey God then and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away (no blame shall attach to our Messenger), for the duty of Our Messenger is just to deliver the message.
6725 26 And they ask, "When shall the promise be fulfilled if you speak the Truth?" Say, "The knowledge of it is verily with God alone, and verily I am but a plain warner."
10.99-100. If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe! No soul can believe, except by the will of God, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand
28.55-56 And when they hear vain talk, they turn away therefrom and say "To us our deeds, and to you yours; peace be to you we seek not the ignorant," It is true thou wilt not be able to guide whom thou lovest; but God guides those whom He will and He knows best those who receive guidance.
109.1-6 Say O ye that reject Faith,! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, To you be your Way, and to me mine.
74.11-17 Leave Me with whom I created alone!, To whom I granted resources in abundance, And sons to be by his side, To whom I made (life) smooth and comfortable, Yet is he greedy-that I should add (yet more);- By no means! For to Our Signs he has been refractory!, Soon will I visit him with a mount of calamities!
"So have We appointed for every Prophet an enemy - devils of men and Jinns; who inspire each other with seductive, deceptive speech which leads astray; but had thy Lord willed they would not have done so. So leave them with what they do devise. And let the hearts of those who believe not in the Hereafter listen to it; and let them be well pleased with it; and let them gain what they can gain!" 6113-114
"And when you see those who meddle with Our revelations, withdraw from them until they meddle with another topic. And if the devil causes you to forget, sit not, after the remembrance, with the congregation of wrongdoers. 668
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Peace,
I agree, no need for a state. I am against Quranic statehood, mainly because the Quran says that the last prophet (God bless him) was no one's controller, musaitirun (lasta 3alayhim bimusaitirin). A state is a system of control, saitarah, and that is not what our last prophet and his message recommend. I have said over and over again that what the Amish/Menonites have is very close to what the Quran is calling us to self-sufficient communities and a Quranic order and a Quranic codex of policies and rules that we CHOOSE to live by. We don't need a state. What we need is a strong organizaton committed to both realistic and Quranic goals of self-sufficiency, sustainability, quality of life, promotion our Quranic, Abrahamic beliefs and way of life and realistic, non-bombastic, and not too worldy goals of success in this life and the next.
Please, please, please do research on the Amish way of life (not necessarily their ideologies) and imagine a Quranic way of life like that. These people have real skills, they can build, restore, farm, sow and set up small businesses to bring in outside money. They are a church community that can fully take care of themselves, only depend on themselves and as it turns out one of the wealthies and fastest growing communities in the U.S. You would think they were poor riding around in there buggies but that have more material and immaterial wealth than all other communities in the U.S.
I have alot of ideas of how to create a quality life as well in such a community. With the following we could live quality lives as a Quranic church oriented, self-sufficient community.
Consider the following
Gober gas aparati (Bio-methane) (Check out on youtube)
Super Adobe, earth architecture (Cal-Earth, check out youtube)
Efficient Microbes (check out on you tube)
micro-gasifiers (check out on youtube)Other helpful equipment are plows, presses and mills, spindles. fresian wells, water pumps, cysterns and filters (to refilter and reuse grey water as well as to filter rain water.)
But with real skills we could only depend on ourselves, have 99 percent closed-cycle sustainability and bring in extra money to contribute to Quranic endeavors. Honestly with these tools and proper land plannng, a Quranic community could live freely and indepedentantly with housing for everyone with a main sanctuary and prosper.
Subtropics and tropics are preferable for this plan. As sugar cane bagasse (which grows up into zone 8, in the U.S. that is as high as coast North Carolina) figures in as a source of fuel. I would also consider using bamboo and pine straw (roof can be topped with ceramic, zinc or other materials because it's a hidden roof anyway, hence raised walls) for roofing with raised walls and a simple water catchment system.
Godbless,
Anwar