I know what sex is, what is illegal sex?
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Peace,
Yeah well said Kurt.
I think it is rather we and our brains who need to be more update, not the Quran itself.
But I agree with Johnny, when a penis penetrate a vagina then it is adultery if they don't have any contract of their relationship and it can be both in written or mutual form.
But that condom theory I don't buy, because the condom can break and the female become pregnant so that must be classed as adultery as well.
Peace
Maria -
Peace,
I think that people are being very generous with what they think is not adultery.
Look at 1732 And come not near unto adultery. Lo! it is an abomination and an evil way.
It says do not even come NEAR adultery let alone committing it. Getting close to it, or allowing one's actions to go down the path is also wrong. So it's wrong way before it gets to the point of putting a condom on or getting that covered member anywhere near a woman.
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Look at 1732 And come not near unto adultery. Lo! it is an abomination and an evil way.
It says do not even come NEAR adultery let alone committing it. Getting close to it, or allowing one's actions to go down the path is also wrong. So it's wrong way before it gets to the point of putting a condom on or getting that covered member anywhere near a woman.
Hi there,
I might be a newbe but i just want to grab the essence of the Qur'an on that issue. What is legal and what isn't? For example it might be okay for anyone to have a mate without really marrying each other; verbally or written. Both are bound in love. Some would say that's wrong...
In any other issue most of the time, every person view the concept of what is right/ wrong differently. Isn't that why people are different?
I am going to draw the border line here since i am going to be fftopic but also relating to the main issue.
So what is right and what is wrong? I like mashed potatoes with ketchup and mayo and you don't. Think about why people have problems. Is it because they don't believe in God. Well assuming we both do believe in God, you will still view my choice of eating mashed potatoes as the wrong thing to do for yourself. Problems start as easy as that and we don't realize the differences in believes until something big come out.
Sometimes i think i should do regardless the Qur'anic rulings just because i do not ultimatly agree with God. The Qur'an isn't my sole opinion and if it was, I would be perfect in the eyes of God. This might be viewed as idoltarianism(however it is spelled)since I believe in God and myself.
Nobody was asked to choose to live or not exist before we got out our mothers' wombs. Yet we are still bound by freewill and freedom to choose sometimes. If we are so free to decide for our own, then why bother existing at all? Is that the slave syndrom?
I have my own problems and so does everyone else. I am stuck in a hole and it is a big story for me to discuss so i will say the brief. Being a young immigrant of separated parents and family, barely saving money after rent /being unable to afford good schools and to live on my own i see no stable future career but cash jobs for the next coming long years. I see myself with no real directions, like a piece of "poopoo"(sorry for the language) in the middle of a swamp. I spread over wherever the wind blows.
Personally speaking i developed pretty early. Hormones are agitating crazily and my sexual life needs to be fed among any organ in my body. I cannot deny the need for sex since i know the side effects of hunger itself; starvation to death. However, i won't die if i deprive myself from sex i will just go crazy. Seriously, and nobody likes to hear about rapists lol. I can't afford a wife so i do what is cheap for me; i have sex with any girl i go out with. Do i deny the fact that marriage keeps the community cleaner? No. In fact i wish i can get married so i wouldn't worry about STD's or unknown parenthood. For some reason, I don't have the freewill to change that instance.
I don't know where i am going with this behavior yet....... but i gotta survive just like anyone else?
-peace
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Peace weinmar
hat off for your outspoken- and frankness
going off topic as well, but i just hope that you're clear with the girls you go out with - so that there is a mutual agreement on what exactly you're doing
speaking for myself when i have sex with someone it means that i make love - i do expect or at least hope for more to come out of the relation than just sex....but for sure it already happended to me that a guy was just, well acting in love and serious to get me just there...
imo, besides being illegal or not in quranic terms, this is just unacceptable behaviour in (my) moral terms
elke
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Peace to all,
Weinmar, take it easy brother, you sound like you have some serious issues you need to take care of, try cleaning your body out of the toxic chemicals you put in it and this will help clear up your mind to make some important decisions you need,
Kurt
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Peace "phoenix",
peace JK,
isn't that a little too specific? Sexual relations are sexual relations, whether or not sexual intercourse is performed.
I'm starting to think that the Quran just doesn't work. There is so much guesswork involved in even figuring out what adultery is and what the punishment is.JK- Oh but it works perfectly by leaving the details for the scientific community to decide which can be all of us, and not fixing a definition like the Mullahs. If thts wht your pursuing then sorry the Quran is not for you. GOD Bless!
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Peace sister "Majidah",
Peace,
Yeah well said Kurt.
I think it is rather we and our brains who need to be more update, not the Quran itself.
But I agree with Johnny, when a penis penetrate a vagina then it is adultery if they don't have any contract of their relationship and it can be both in written or mutual form.
JK- Mutual is ok for now but we should work for a system where it is easy for eveyrone to register or sign a contract over the internet and stored in a database which can be accessed by the community later if one of the partner decides to run away without responsibility.
But that condom theory I don't buy, because the condom can break and the female become pregnant so that must be classed as adultery as well.
Peace
MariaJK- I agree and tht why i said it is a complicated issue. GOD Bless!
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Peace bro "truth",
Its been long since weve heard of you. Hope your fine.Peace,
I think that people are being very generous with what they think is not adultery.
Look at 1732 And come not near unto adultery. Lo! it is an abomination and an evil way.
It says do not even come NEAR adultery let alone committing it. Getting close to it, or allowing one's actions to go down the path is also wrong. So it's wrong way before it gets to the point of putting a condom on or getting that covered member anywhere near a woman.
JK- Correct and hence i mentioned tht coming close to adultery is a violation of modesty and GOD would take one into account for that. But there is no legal punishment for just coming close to adultery and thts the point. GOD Bless!
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Peace everyone
Phoenix, the Quran doesnt work? wow, let me know when you write a better book and ill be the first to buy a copy,
Kurt,
Come on, You know you would never buy a book that's supposed to be better than the Quran.Maria said,
I think it is rather we and our brains who need to be more update, not the Quran itself.
Exactly.
Because we cannot update the Quran. Plus, the Quran says what we think it says. What it says depends entirely on our views of the world. The key is, as the Quran says, to think and ponder. If we do that, then no matter how corrupted it gets, we still end up with the truth.Jonny said,
JK- Oh but it works perfectly by leaving the details for the scientific community to decide which can be all of us, and not fixing a definition like the Mullahs. If thts wht your pursuing then sorry the Quran is not for you. GOD Bless!
What is a scientific community? Are they supposed to be the Mullahs of the future? You contradicted yourself in that sentence. Think about it. The mullahs too are supposed to be an enlightened community which decides what is best. Which also can be all of us. Who decides if you are "scientific" enough?
But is there a punishment for adultery? I know there is one for sex outside of marriage, which doesn't work AT ALL.
If there isn't one (I really can't remember), then I don't have to explain why that doesn't work. And if there is a specific punishment, for the same reasons as pre marital sex, and because if it provides us with a specific punishment, we also need a specific definition of the crime. Which you are saying the quran doesn't provide because it's left to interpretation, which is better.Truth said,
It says do not even come NEAR adultery let alone committing it. Getting close to it, or allowing one's actions to go down the path is also wrong. So it's wrong way before it gets to the point of putting a condom on or getting that covered member anywhere near a woman.
How close is close? And what if I cheat on a wife who is abusing me and our kids with a woman that I have committed myself to? I don't see how that would be an abomination and an evil way.
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Peace "phoenix",
Jonny said,What is a scientific community? Are they supposed to be the Mullahs of the future? You contradicted yourself in that sentence. Think about it. The mullahs too are supposed to be an enlightened community which decides what is best. Which also can be all of us. Who decides if you are "scientific" enough?
JK- Its strange but i anticipated tht youd try and turn my statement into a contra with the exact same reason i had in mind. If you wanna compare the scientific community with the Mullahs then im sorry i cant help you. If you know any other way besides science to verify the truth and to define the details of rules please let me know. If your against science now then i also cant help you. As for who decides your scientific enough ITS US the people. We realize that science is the only way to go if we dont wanna get back into the cave. Everyone realizes this on one level or the other but wherever it goes against their dogma thts where probs come in. The Mullahs are in no way like the scientific community, the latter of which is always open to self correction where as the former is fixed.
But is there a punishment for adultery? I know there is one for sex outside of marriage, which doesn't work AT ALL.
If there isn't one (I really can't remember), then I don't have to explain why that doesn't work. And if there is a specific punishment, for the same reasons as pre marital sex, and because if it provides us with a specific punishment, we also need a specific definition of the crime. Which you are saying the quran doesn't provide because it's left to interpretation, which is better.JK- Yes the Quran mentions a punishment for adultery whose definition is to be decided by the community. According to my understanding it is when the penis penetrates the vagina without there being a egal contract of responsibility which is very reasonable. "Marriage" is a religious term and i avoid using it. GOD Bless!
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JK- Its strange but i anticipated tht youd try and turn my statement into a contra with the exact same reason i had in mind. If you wanna compare the scientific community with the Mullahs then im sorry i cant help you. If you know any other way besides science to verify the truth and to define the details of rules please let me know. If your against science now then i also cant help you. As for who decides your scientific enough ITS US the people. We realize that science is the only way to go if we dont wanna get back into the cave. Everyone realizes this on one level or the other but wherever it goes against their dogma thts where probs come in. The Mullahs are in no way like the scientific community, the latter of which is always open to self correction where as the former is fixed.
peace, I understand what you are getting at. EVERYONE cannot reach ONE conclusion. We cannot have everyone deciding. You can have the majority decide, but the majority are always following conjecture, they might be misguided. The only thing you can do then is to appoint or elect a small group of people who decide, like a jury. And that's when it becomes the same thing as today's Mullahs. Because then you are not listening to God, but to these priests or scientists or whatever that you have appointed.
So, the only thing that works is if the quran isn't meant for the whole world, or as a constitution, but as an individual guide. Which means that we are looking at these "crimes" and "punishments" the wrong way. I don't know what the answer is, but I think a major re-think is necessary for these concepts.JK- Yes the Quran mentions a punishment for adultery whose definition is to be decided by the community. According to my understanding it is when the penis penetrates the vagina without there being a egal contract of responsibility which is very reasonable. "Marriage" is a religious term and i avoid using it. GOD Bless!
A legal contract doesn't change anything.
What the Quran has taught me is that I am not supposed to do what is legal, but what is morally right. I don't care how many laws I break if my intentions are good, and what I do is morally OK.
Morally speaking, there is nothing wrong with having sex with someone without a piece of paper telling you that you love your partner. A piece of paper makes no difference. It's as superficial as those fake hoodscoops they put on cars. A piece of paper has nothing to do with what you feel on the inside, which is what actually matters.
Adultery, to me, is when I love a person, but I decide to have sex with someone else just for the sake of sex. Or I am no longer committed to my partner that I swore I would commit to. I can see why that is an evil thing. -
Peace "phoenix",
I can see your prob. You like many others need to get down from the spiritual horse and try more to understand the real world.peace, I understand what you are getting at. EVERYONE cannot reach ONE conclusion.
JK- Oh yes we can and theres high prob tht we will GW but that would be when all of us will embrace the scientific method. This will inevitably happen. See almost everyone is enjoying the facilities which science has brought forward today, even the ver radical Hislamics use machine guns which are ironically devloped by Jewish scientists(Note Here Jew refers to a race not Judaism sicne the scientits are secular. Took me some time to find tht out, see wiki). So one day or another this hypocrisy must disappear. Theres a high tendency tht it will.
We cannot have everyone deciding. You can have the majority decide, but the majority are always following conjecture, they might be misguided. The only thing you can do then is to appoint or elect a small group of people who decide, like a jury. And that's when it becomes the same thing as today's Mullahs. Because then you are not listening to God, but to these priests or scientists or whatever that you have appointed.
JK- Theres a vast difference between appoiting qualified scientists and/or politicians who follow the scientific method or else can be anytime overthrown and the Mullahs which rely on religious dogma and scare the people and /or even use military force to subdue them. Please try to understand this.
So, the only thing that works is if the quran isn't meant for the whole world, or as a constitution, but as an individual guide. Which means that we are looking at these "crimes" and "punishments" the wrong way. I don't know what the answer is, but I think a major re-think is necessary for these concepts.
JK- What then do you make of the verse which tell us to puish the adulterers? Who is this we? Dont you see? The Quran is talking to the community. Dont you know that the Quran says that even the birds form COMMNITIES like us? We must learn to live in community. Individually we wont survive on earth and tht is a totally unhealthy concept.
A legal contract doesn't change anything.
JK- Oh yes it does. It fixes responsibility coz thered be PRESSURE from the community to do so. This is why we have banks and trsnactions are stored in databases accessible to experts when relevant i.e. when misconceptions come abt. If a legal contract didnt change anything we eldnt be needing this. Plz think.
What the Quran has taught me is that I am not supposed to do what is legal, but what is morally right. I don't care how many laws I break if my intentions are good, and what I do is morally OK.
JK- How do you judge what is morally right or wrong? Again the scientific method comes in. Theres no other way. The QUran mentions BOTH moral and legal issues.
Morally speaking, there is nothing wrong with having sex with someone without a piece of paper telling you that you love your partner. A piece of paper makes no difference. It's as superficial as those fake hoodscoops they put on cars. A piece of paper has nothing to do with what you feel on the inside, which is what actually matters.
JK- And this is where you are wrong. If this were the case we didnt need bank contracts or any other for tht matter. Your reaacting entirely emotional. GOD in the Quran specifically commands us TO WRITE DOWN/TRANSCRIBE financial tranactions and those i think we can agree are less important than a living child. The point which you fail to get is that you we aint safe on our own. We need to live together and cooperate. Again think.
Adultery, to me, is when I love a person, but I decide to have sex with someone else just for the sake of sex. Or I am no longer committed to my partner that I swore I would commit to. I can see why that is an evil thing.
JK- Im sorry but this is not immediately adultery, only if you dont enter into a contract with the person who your having sex with. Your again confusing moral and legal issues. GOD does not issue legal punishments in regards to individual moral issues. GOD Bless!
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Peace,
I totally agree with Johnny. And it's so important to realize that this is meant to be for a community.
If Phoenix and his girlfriend was the only one on earth it wouldn't have been a problem, they couldn't commit adultery, yeah u know.....
So morals and rules for living in a community is of course needed or else it would be a chaos.
Peace
Maria -
Peace "weinmar",
May i ask what prevents you from signing a contract of responsibility together with your partner before you engage in sexual relations? Is tht too difficult a task? GOD Bless!Hi,
Shouldn't you go to a lawyer/notaria to get a contract or document legalized? sounds like fun..
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Hi,
Shouldn't you go to a lawyer/notaria to get a contract or document legalized? sounds like fun..
JK- Aha i get ur point but no thts not necessary. However you can right up your own document of responsibility and get that approved by a lawyer. Once thts done you can use it for any relationship and you dont have to go to a lawyer again and again. Another method would be "e-signature" meaning you can make a contacrt electronically through the internet and youd be registered automatically. In the meantime it would suffice if both if you and your partner agree to the major points of responsibility, sign the paper and each of you keep a copy until we devise such a system. GOD Bless!
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Peace to all,
Weinmar, take it easy brother, you sound like you have some serious issues you need to take care of, try cleaning your body out of the toxic chemicals you put in it and this will help clear up your mind to make some important decisions you need,
Kurt
I am clean and my mind is able to decide. I am not your average street bum high on crack.
-peace