Adultery
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Peace bro Khizar,
JK- No ihavnt heard of tht before. Wht is the significance of this ritual for the chinese tht they take it as so degrading?
It has nothing to do with Chinese !! Please see
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_water_torture
P.s I can understand not lashing the women physically but why not lash adult men who are healthy and strong even if it be physically? People justify hitting children all the time at one pt or another which i strognly condemn but whts wrong wth hitting adult strong men when theyve done severe wrong or comitted crimes? Tht i never understood. GOD Bless!
I never said that 242 implies no physical lashes. It does mean physical lashes but not violent or forceful enough to leave marks IMO. The lashing is more for public shaming than physical torture as evident from the 2nd part of 242.
Are you implying that women are the weaker sex physically, as far as pain endurance is concerned ? Actually, women have more fat in certain places, so they should be able to absorb the lashes better than men !! Even The God does not differentiate between men and women in 242 as far as lashes is concerned.
There is no mention in 242 that lashes should be severe/violent/forceful, otherwise The God would have given exception to the weak and the ill, like He does in other places. He does not want us to have any pity as far as the system prescribed by Him, i.e. the number of lashes. The public shaming is the real purpose of the lashes.
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Peace JK,
Ayman you say that adultery is ONLY A PRIVATE MATTER? Could you kindly define adultery for me please? If what you understand by it is sex outside of a legal contract OR sex with another man while being together with another, then how in GOD's name can you say tht this aint a legal issue? For the 1st point when people have sex they must take responisbility for any child tht maybe born out of the relationship BEFORE engaging in intercourse so that no one can shy away from responsibility. as regs no.2 thts even more obvious. Do u really think tht it aint criminal if some guy makes out with another woman who might have STDS, then comes back to his wife at home and transfers it all to her and the child bron possibly out of tht relationship, and vice versa for the women? Have you considered tht or do u have another understanding of the term "adultery"?
Adultery/infidelity is certainly a grave sin and it becomes a legal issue when a spouse finds out because then they can get a divorce (a legal issue). As for children, again the father is responsible for supporting the child so it is a legal issue where fatherhood must be established. As for sexually transmitted diseases, people can get those from other sources such as sharing needles with drug addicts and still transmit them to their spouses (but no punishment is prescribed in the great reading for sharing needles).
And btw pornography if one does it with ones spouse THTS NOT A LEGAL ISSUE but one of morality. GOD Bless!
I disagree. Even if pornography is done with a spouse, it is still a legal issue and even married people are to be punished if you bring 4 witnesses. In fact, we clearly hear in 243 that married couples can still be "zani" (pornographers).
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace "ayman",
Peace JK,
Adultery/infidelity is certainly a grave sin and it becomes a legal issue when a spouse finds out because then they can get a divorce (a legal issue). As for children, again the father is responsible for supporting the child so it is a legal issue where fatherhood must be established. As for sexually transmitted diseases, people can get those from other sources such as sharing needles with drug addicts and still transmit them to their spouses (but no punishment is prescribed in the great reading for sharing needles).
JK- The needle argument is obviously flawed because here there is no provocation and hence no negligence. In the case where onegoes off to have sex with another than his wife the issue is clearly negligence. He knows tht he can acquire diseases but he ignores the issue. The second point is tht whilst there is no legal contract with the other person with whom sexual intercourse takes place, the father of any born child can escape and it would become difficult to find him because how would you know hes the father if you dont know the person? All kinds of probs arise and therefore not to engage in a legal contract is negligence at least and thus worthy of legal punishment.
I disagree. Even if pornography is done with a spouse, it is still a legal issue and even married people are to be punished if you bring 4 witnesses. In fact, we clearly hear in 243 that married couples can still be "zani" (pornographers).
Peace,Ayman
JK- Married couples can be Zaani if one of the two engages in sex with another whom they dont have a legal contract with NOT if they have sex amongst themselves in the open which is clearly a moral offense. GOD Bless!
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Peace bro "tanveer",
Are you implying that women are the weaker sex physically, as far as pain endurance is concerned ? Actually, women have more fat in certain places, so they should be able to absorb the lashes better than men !! Even The God does not differentiate between men and women in 242 as far as lashes is concerned.
JK- I have never heard that the fat in a woman's body allows the pain to get absorbed better than that of men. I think it has to do with the sensitivity of the skin. Women's skin is much more delicate than men's in general. Why do you think beating women is such an issue and not the beating of men? As for GOD not differentiating, He also does not differentiate how to beat a skinny,weak guy as compared to a strong and muscular one but does tht mean they should receive the blows with similar severity? Ofcourse not and we have to use our rational thought to sort this our ourselves. GOD mentions the basic laws and then the grey shades which life is full off are left upto the scientific community to decide which also ofcourse acts according to GOD's laws. GOD Bless!
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Peace Tanveer
Is conjecture your middle name ?
Can you explain what is meant by ?let not compassion/pity move you"242? Did you mean to say the Quran orders that azaab is tapping them lightly 100 times?
416 is talking of what kind of punishment?
Believers are asked to be witness to the azaab no be the azaab itself.
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Peace Tanveer
Tanveer There is no mention in 242 that lashes should be severe/violent/forceful, otherwise The God would have given exception to the weak and the ill, like He does in other places.
But they were fit enough to jump in to bed with other peoples wives or husbands , and you want an exemption on grounds of weaknesses and illnesses? Try something else Tanveer , You can not convince even a jury in LA with that line of argument.
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Peace JK,
JK- The needle argument is obviously flawed because here there is no provocation and hence no negligence. In the case where onegoes off to have sex with another than his wife the issue is clearly negligence. He knows tht he can acquire diseases but he ignores the issue. The second point is tht whilst there is no legal contract with the other person with whom sexual intercourse takes place, the father of any born child can escape and it would become difficult to find him because how would you know hes the father if you dont know the person? All kinds of probs arise and therefore not to engage in a legal contract is negligence at least and thus worthy of legal punishment.
It is a fact that addicts exchanging needles is far more negligent and risky than two people who know each other having sex and using a condom. How come there is no punishment for the addict?
It is also a fact that children can be conceived without sexual intercourse such as through sperm banks and fertility clinics. How come there is no punishment for fertility clinics and sperm donors and takers?
On the other hand, pornography is not a private matter but is a deliberate exhibition of private matter to corrupt society. So it is punishable. We are also told not to come near pornography/"zina" this means that it is not only about not doing it but also watching it or tolerate it in any shape or form.
JK- Married couples can be Zaani if one of the two engages in sex with another whom they dont have a legal contract with NOT if they have sex amongst themselves in the open which is clearly a moral offense. GOD Bless!
No, 43 is clear even married couples can be zani and zaniyat TOGETHER. The issue is not about marriage at all. It is about whether there are four witnesses or not. Given the prohibition against spying and the sanctity of the home in the great reading, the only way you would get valid four witnesses is if the couple deliberetly had sex in public. This is pornography. The passage doesn't say "if the couple were married then the accusers are the liars according to the god".
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Warner,
Pornography is taking/making an image or releasing it to the general public? Or making the general public view it while making/taking those images?
Long before there were printed and electronic images, pornography existed. As defined in the great reading, it involves people (it doesn't matter if they are a married couple or not) having public sex.
Some people say nude paintings are not pornography but art. What is your opinion on this?
I think that nudity is not "zina". The proper covering of the body is already covered by other passages and there is no punishment stated in those passages for not doing it. So again it is a moral issue not a legal issue. On the other hand, public sex is "zina" and hence a legal issue.
Peace,
Ayman
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Salaam Ayman
I have some Questions for you Bro.- Since when is Zina = Public Sex and who defined this ?
- What constitute a Public sex ? ( Does a Spouse catching his/her partner having sex with another constitute a Public Sex ? ) .
- Why do you categorize Adultery/ Infidelity as a Legal Issue ? ( It may be a legal Issue where you are , but not in other Countries . In fact , in many countries Adultery is Strictly a Moral issue only devoid of Legal Implications . Adultery has not been a Ground for Divorce in many Jurisdictions for ages now and anyone can File for divorce On a No fault Basis ) .
- why did you believe that only the Father is responsible for a child born out of a liason and not the Mother ? . ( The Child Support Acts hold both the Father and the Mother of the child responsible for the child's maintenance , although the Responsibilty lies largely with the Non-Custodial Parent ) .
5)Since when does a Pornography recorded by a Couple , married or not for their own Private Viewing , is a Legal Issue ?
Thanking you in advance for your Informed answers
Peace
almarh0m
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Peace Brook
Thanks for the verse.
As you know , in the Quraan zina is not mentioned many times but Fahishaa is mentioned quite a number of times. Since there is a connection between the two if we understand Fahisha clearly it may be possible to understand zina.
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Peace bro Warner,
According to your conjecture of "let not compassion/pity move you" meaning that the lashes are not mild, you still have not been able to define the upper limit of the force of lashes according to al-qur'aan. Should it be a little more than mild ? medium ? extremely violent/forceful ? If yes then why and if not then why not ?
Your conjecture allows the interpretation of 242 to mean that one can inflict lashes extremely forcefully/violently enough to kill. If that is what The God wanted, He would have said so, that "kill them by lashes".
If, however, we see what 242 says without using conjecture, then we find that it is clearly telling us not to let compassion move us in God's system (fi deen Allah); and what is God's system for punishment of zina ? It is 100 LASHES IN PUBLIC (which stresses the public shaming/humiliation aspect). Thus clearly, it means not to inflict less than 100 lashes, or not prevent others from witnessing it, and is talking about not letting compassion reduce the number of lashes or prevent the public witnessing.
The fact remains that there is no mention in 242 that lashes should be severe/violent/forceful, so God's system is the number of lashes in public, not severity of lashes, otherwise it will be a license for the mullahs to kill. The purpose of the punishment is public shaming and humiliation as is evident from the second part of 242, and not physical torture.
Do you mean to say that one cannot fall ill or become weak due to sickness after committing zina, before receiving the punishment ? Even if one is not ill, and is perfectly healthy and strong, 100 lashes inflicted extremely forcefully by someone like Hulk Hogan is enough to kill an average person. Why don't you try it sometimes and it will be empirical verification for you.
According to your conjecture, there is nothing in 242 to stop Hulk Hogan like person from inflicting 100 lashes with extreme force on an average person, thereby killing that person in the process.
You still have not answered how public humiliation/shaming cannot be an azaab. Even torture by gentle repetitious dripping of water can be azaab. Imagine yourself standing in public witnessing the lashing of a zaani. You will be the witness of the azaab of the public humiliation of the zaani in front of others, won't you ?
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Peace bro Khizar,
I have never heard that the fat in a woman's body allows the pain to get absorbed better than that of men. I think it has to do with the sensitivity of the skin. Women's skin is much more delicate than men's in general.
The pain sensing neuron endings are not just present in the skin but the muscles too. Haven't you heard of "myalgias" or "muscle aches and pains" ? The excess fat in certain parts of the female body would "pad" the muscles from the pain causing stimulus; thus in men muscle pain sensors will be stimulated more than in women in certain parts due to lashes.
Any scientific proof of women's skin being more delicate than men's in general ?
Women actually have to deal with delivery of a baby which can be one of the most painful experiences in the world, and thus have better ability to endure pain than men !
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Peace bro "phoenix",
JK- 1) the Quran doesnt say that there have to be four simultaneous eye witnesses. One could be having sexual relations and witnessed firt by one, then a second, third and then fourth witness separetly and later they may all testify. So its not necessarily public. 2) four witnesses does NOT necessary mean direct eye witnesses of the event but could also be applied to indepenedent witnesses of DNA tests and/or other facts which solidly indicate that the event took place. GOD Bless!
So, according to this, one can be the sole witness if he|she was the one who witnessed them everytime they had sex!
Also, why chase people with DNA tests and expert witnesses because they had sex that nobody witnessed? Who has the right to punish me because I had sex with someone? Only an espouse would be hurt, and there is a specific verse for this case. Punishements, as I said, are to protect the society, not someone. Public sex raises the tolerence threshold towards illegal sex.
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peace
What I really don't get is why the Quran mentions public sex at all, let alone public gay sex.
I have never ever seen that happen. Never. It is such an uncommon practice. At least in today's world (who knows what those arabs used to do in the good ol' days). And having sex in public is something most people would intuitively avoid.
Is it sex as in sexual intercourse? or just lewd or immodest behavior?You haven't heard of pornography, porn movies, porn theatres? Do you think they are a 20th century invention?
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Peace warner
I mean if there is a sole witness other than spouse, and he can solemnly affirm , then why doesn't that qualify her/him to be a zani ? why this exception? so i think swearing of spouse , does not make her/him Zani, and hence can not be given the punishment prescribed for "Zaneeis"
peace
siki
That's right. She did not have public sex.