Adultery
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Peace bro Warner,
According to your conjecture of "let not compassion/pity move you" meaning that the lashes are not mild, you still have not been able to define the upper limit of the force of lashes according to al-qur'aan. Should it be a little more than mild ? medium ? extremely violent/forceful ? If yes then why and if not then why not ?
Your conjecture allows the interpretation of 242 to mean that one can inflict lashes extremely forcefully/violently enough to kill. If that is what The God wanted, He would have said so, that "kill them by lashes".
If, however, we see what 242 says without using conjecture, then we find that it is clearly telling us not to let compassion move us in God's system (fi deen Allah); and what is God's system for punishment of zina ? It is 100 LASHES IN PUBLIC (which stresses the public shaming/humiliation aspect). Thus clearly, it means not to inflict less than 100 lashes, or not prevent others from witnessing it, and is talking about not letting compassion reduce the number of lashes or prevent the public witnessing.
The fact remains that there is no mention in 242 that lashes should be severe/violent/forceful, so God's system is the number of lashes in public, not severity of lashes, otherwise it will be a license for the mullahs to kill. The purpose of the punishment is public shaming and humiliation as is evident from the second part of 242, and not physical torture.
Do you mean to say that one cannot fall ill or become weak due to sickness after committing zina, before receiving the punishment ? Even if one is not ill, and is perfectly healthy and strong, 100 lashes inflicted extremely forcefully by someone like Hulk Hogan is enough to kill an average person. Why don't you try it sometimes and it will be empirical verification for you.
According to your conjecture, there is nothing in 242 to stop Hulk Hogan like person from inflicting 100 lashes with extreme force on an average person, thereby killing that person in the process.
You still have not answered how public humiliation/shaming cannot be an azaab. Even torture by gentle repetitious dripping of water can be azaab. Imagine yourself standing in public witnessing the lashing of a zaani. You will be the witness of the azaab of the public humiliation of the zaani in front of others, won't you ?
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Peace bro Khizar,
I have never heard that the fat in a woman's body allows the pain to get absorbed better than that of men. I think it has to do with the sensitivity of the skin. Women's skin is much more delicate than men's in general.
The pain sensing neuron endings are not just present in the skin but the muscles too. Haven't you heard of "myalgias" or "muscle aches and pains" ? The excess fat in certain parts of the female body would "pad" the muscles from the pain causing stimulus; thus in men muscle pain sensors will be stimulated more than in women in certain parts due to lashes.
Any scientific proof of women's skin being more delicate than men's in general ?
Women actually have to deal with delivery of a baby which can be one of the most painful experiences in the world, and thus have better ability to endure pain than men !
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Peace bro "phoenix",
JK- 1) the Quran doesnt say that there have to be four simultaneous eye witnesses. One could be having sexual relations and witnessed firt by one, then a second, third and then fourth witness separetly and later they may all testify. So its not necessarily public. 2) four witnesses does NOT necessary mean direct eye witnesses of the event but could also be applied to indepenedent witnesses of DNA tests and/or other facts which solidly indicate that the event took place. GOD Bless!
So, according to this, one can be the sole witness if he|she was the one who witnessed them everytime they had sex!
Also, why chase people with DNA tests and expert witnesses because they had sex that nobody witnessed? Who has the right to punish me because I had sex with someone? Only an espouse would be hurt, and there is a specific verse for this case. Punishements, as I said, are to protect the society, not someone. Public sex raises the tolerence threshold towards illegal sex.
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peace
What I really don't get is why the Quran mentions public sex at all, let alone public gay sex.
I have never ever seen that happen. Never. It is such an uncommon practice. At least in today's world (who knows what those arabs used to do in the good ol' days). And having sex in public is something most people would intuitively avoid.
Is it sex as in sexual intercourse? or just lewd or immodest behavior?You haven't heard of pornography, porn movies, porn theatres? Do you think they are a 20th century invention?
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Peace warner
I mean if there is a sole witness other than spouse, and he can solemnly affirm , then why doesn't that qualify her/him to be a zani ? why this exception? so i think swearing of spouse , does not make her/him Zani, and hence can not be given the punishment prescribed for "Zaneeis"
peace
siki
That's right. She did not have public sex.
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phoenix 1
I agree with warner here, we have been careless in using this word public sex. Zina is not public sex, but an unauthorized sexual act , which while being committed is witnessed by 4 people. If a husband and wife are witnessed by 4 people , i don't think they would qualify for 100 lashes.
peace
sikiI do not agree here. A huband and wife committing public sex will be equally punished. The punishment is not for illegal sex, but for public sex. What if two "zani" get married? Can they go on with their public sex without being punished?
"zaani" has the pattern for "doer", a pattern used in Arabic for professionals. "kaatib" is someone whose profession is "writing" or "book-keeping".
Sorry for the consecutive replies (I do not like that), but I lost the thread for sometime and then forgot about it!!
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Peace Tanveer
Thanks for providing the answer. The command is to cane one hundred times. Not one less or more. On one part the Quraan says do not move with compassion so as to reduce it below 100. At the same time Quraan does not command to give a back rub. Caning is a punishment to hurt someone physically with the intention of making the guilty person feel the pain. Public shaming is not the purpose; inflicting pain is. If there is no pain, few less than 100 or more will not matter to the person carrying out the punishment. If it is just a tap from the cane without pain then why should the person doing the caning feel compassion and do it a lesser number of times. If the intention is to kill or maim, The Quraan would have mentioned it. To go beyond what is expected from a punishment of caning is transgressing the limits. The Quraan does not have to give detailed description of each and every command. When the Children of Israel were commanded to sacrifice the cow, the details were not given, it was expected that they had sufficient intelligence to figure that out. I did not know that X Men are in to the caning. I agree with you their caning will be quite a show.
Also if you subscribe to the porno theory public witnessing may even be not considered as azaab it maybe even a distraction.
I agree it will be humiliating that others witnessing the punishment. But the verse says that some believers should witnesses the azaab and the verse does not say for the believers to be the azaab itself. When the quraan mentions azaab in other places does the Quran mention public humiliation and water treatment?
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Peace Tanveer
Thanks for providing the answer. The command is to cane one hundred times. Not one less or more. On one part the Quraan says do not move with compassion so as to reduce it below 100. At the same time Quraan does not command to give a back rub. Caning is a punishment to hurt someone physically with the intention of making the guilty person feel the pain. Public shaming is not the purpose; inflicting pain is. If there is no pain, few less than 100 or more will not matter to the person carrying out the punishment. If it is just a tap from the cane without pain then why should the person doing the caning feel compassion and do it a lesser number of times. If the intention is to kill or maim, The Quraan would have mentioned it. To go beyond what is expected from a punishment of caning is transgressing the limits. The Quraan does not have to give detailed description of each and every command. When the Children of Israel were commanded to sacrifice the cow, the details were not given, it was expected that they had sufficient intelligence to figure that out. I did not know that X Men are in to the caning. I agree with you their caning will be quite a show.
Also if you subscribe to the porno theory public witnessing may even be not considered as azaab it maybe even a distraction.
I agree it will be humiliating that others witnessing the punishment. But the verse says that some believers should witnesses the azaab and the verse does not say for the believers to be the azaab itself. When the quraan mentions azaab in other places does the Quran mention public humiliation and water treatment?
An appropriate logic, i was about to post the same answer.
siki
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Peace
242 does not mention 4 witnesses.
244 does not mention zina.
Normally, to convict someone to be guilty of any crime in a court of law guilt should be proven with conclusive evidence and beyond reasonable doubt. In the Quranic system/law it should be the same and maybe we can include "without a shadow of doubt". Otherwise justice is not carried out.
The Quran says in 244 that someone charging a woman of illegal sex should produce 4 witnesses. This is only to qualify the charge and does not mean the witnesses are readily accepted and the woman convicted of zina and the punishment carried out. Correctly she has the right to defense and the benefit of the doubt is on her. In 242 the 4 witnesses are not the conclusive evidence to prove guilt.They are only to qualify the charge and also to get the accuser off from being punished for slandering; which effectively ends or reduces false charges against innocent women.
The verse 242 does not mention that 4 witnesses are necessary to convict someone as a zani or a zania. The requirement to qualify the charge can not and should not be misunderstood exclusively as public sex or pornography.
Samia "zaani" has the pattern for "doer", a pattern used in Arabic for professionals. "kaatib" is someone whose profession is "writing" or "book-keeping".
I believe zina is indicating the repeat offender and the prostitute; male and female. No doubt public sex and pornography should include as well. All these categories are easier to prove with proper evidence and possibly many witnesses.
The other connection we can possibly make is the Azaab mentioned in 248 with the Azaab mentioned in 242.
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Hi Angel, All,
(..two cents worth!)
I think BEATING people is forbidden except in self defense.
53
Verily He has forbidden upon you The Death and bloodshed and to revile/vilify with pride and to do opposite to Allah or in accordance with other then Allah? strangling, BEATING, repulsing/ repelling, corruption and that (you) devour by obscenity or lewdness, except that/ what is legal to you and what lawful/ clean / pure by labor/ toil and that you seek knowledge of your fate by divining arrows that is sin this day have given up all hope those who disbelieved of your religion so do not you fear them but fear Me?
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12407.msg100513#msg100513
So my view anyway this lashing business is totally forbidden.
And with respects if you see a girl and a boy may be a relative even having it off-then don?t bother stating that to anybody or be prepared for the eighty lashes - as I see the Ayah below.
Waallatheena yarmoona almuhsanatithumma lam ya/too bi-arbaAAati shuhadaa faijlidoohumthamaneena jaldatan wala taqbaloo lahum shahadatanabadan waola-ika humu alfasiqoona
And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations),- flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after for such men are wicked transgressors;-
Allah Bless.
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Peace simple,
i just don't get you here
I think BEATING people is forbidden except in self defense.
and then
or be prepared for the eighty lashes - as I see the Ayah below.
do you consider the 80 lashes as self-defense (ok, i know u don't) or do you not consider 80 lashes as a beating (as of in the course of justice ?) ?
please explain your thought .
Salaams, lk
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Peace simple,
i just don't get you here
and then
do you consider the 80 lashes as self-defense (ok, i know u don't) or do you not consider 80 lashes as a beating (as of in the course of justice ?) ?please explain your thought .
Salaams, lk
Sorry Elke,
I was actually ridiculing the previous translation - to me there is no such thing as the 80 lashes,
peace
Salaams.