Where Is Al-Aqsa Mosque

arnoldyasin

Peace,

Part of a discussion on the same subject between me and Mubashir at Ourbeacon

http//ourbeacon.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=528

Prophet time - 630s No specific Muslim Temple
638-660s The first Muslim Temple in Jerusalem is established
660s-700 The second Muslim Temple in Jerusalem is established by taking over the Jewish Temple next to it

Also the word Asra cannot refer to a journey to the sky, there are 2 major theories

The word Asra comes from Sara meaning to travel by night, this also can ONLY refer to a horizontal travel and not one going 'up'.
Here is Ahmed Ali in his translation of the Quran
"The interpretation of this verse (171) as the Prophet's being carried by night from the sacred mosque at Makkah to Al-Aqsa mosque at Jerusalem, and its assocation wit the Prophet's ascension to heaven, me'raj, starts 2 or 3 hundred years later with the compilations of Hadith and Tafsir. At the time of revelation of this Surah, there was no Al-Aqsa or any other mosque behind the Temple of Solomon, as Baidawi has observed. Historically, the Prophet migrated by night to Madina some 300 miles away from Makkah, and al-aqsa means distant, and mosque means a place where God is adored. Raghib and Muhit point out that the word isra as used here is not derived from sara yasri, to walk or journey by night, but from siratun, meaning God took His devotee to an open and spacious region, as-saru meaning to open out and siratun-nahar the zenith of the day. And it was at Madina where the Prophet's mission spread out to its widest horizon."

The historian Kanan Makiya also says in his novel 'the Templemount' that the story of the me'raaj to Jerusalem was concocted as riots with Jews started as the Jews believed the Muslims had no right to have a building on their holy site. The Jews accussed the Muslims of having no historical background connection with the site, and thus had no legitemate claim to the site. To counter this accussation, people started to make up stories on how the Prophet did go there.

Many stories were concocted after that and contradict each other. Most stories were mixed Jewish stories, as for example the ladder that Jacob suppossedly saw in his dream, where angels climbed up to heaven.

There are also many contradicting stories if something was on the mount or not. It was mostly covered with trash and rubble, most believe the site had no building left. Also to believe the 'niche' of David was still there is complete nonsense as the Temple was completely destroyed by the Babyloniers around 500BC, and was rebuild by the Romans. This rebuild Temple was destroyed during the riots of 70AD, and the Jews were banned from Jerusalem to prevent further uprisings. After that, the Christians used the site as a trashsite to mock the Jews. It is impossible that anything from David still stood there, and it is highly unlikely any structure was build there after the last destruction.

No temple or structure at the site at the time of the Prophet.
The word Asra cannot mean ascension to heaven.
The stories on the me'raaj contradict each other and were only made up in a response to the Jewish accussations of having no right to the location.

Dr.Shabbir's comment on Asra

Surah 17 Al-Asra The Night Journey
This is the 17th Surah of the Quran. Some historians refer to it as Surah Bani Israel. It has 111 verses. ASRA (night journey) is often mixed up with MI'RAJ (Ascension). Since Allah is Omnipresent, the notion of anyone going to meet with Him over the skies does not stand up to reason. "ASRA" signifies night journey and it refers to the beginning of the exalted Messenger's emigration from Makkah to Madinah by night. Verses 2077 and 2652 use the same term for migration of Prophet Moses along with his followers across the sea. Also consider 172.
Masjid Al-Aqsa means, the Remote Mosque and refers to the Remote Mosque in Madinah, the place where Muslims used to establish congregational prayer before the Prophet's arrival to the city. "Masjid" here may also be understood as Madinah being the place of collective submission to Allah's Commands.

The famous Masjid Al-Aqsa (the so-called Qiblah Awwal, or the supposed First Holy Sanctuary, also widely known as Haram Sharif) in Jerusalem was, in fact, built in 72 A.H. (691 C.E.) by the Umayyad Ruler, Abdul Malik bin Marwan, about 60 years after the exalted Messenger passed on.
Jerusalem, until the Muslim conquest under the second Caliph of Islam in 637 C.E., had been under the control of the Byzantine Christians for centuries, and there was no person worshiping in a Masjid anywhere in the world but Madinah.

Hence, the question of the presence of a Masjid in Jerusalem during the life times of the exalted Prophet should not arise.
Muslims conquered Jerusalem in 637 C.E. during the Rule of the second Caliph of Islam, Hazrat Umar. And when he visited the place, he continued to pray in open grounds, although Pope Severinus gave him the Key to the city and invited him to pray in the Church of Holy Sepulture. But Hazrat Umar feared that Muslims might start converting churches into Masjids, so he politely declined. If a Masjid were present he would have prayed there.
The word 'Mi'raj' (Bodily Ascension of any human being) nowhere occurs in the Quran. Yet, under erroneous traditions it is a popular, though non-Quranic, belief among Muslims that the exalted Messenger was taken up physically unto the heavens to meet with Allah!
The Quran as usual sets the records straight by asserting that the First ever Holy Sanctuary was the Kabah built by Prophets Abraham and Ishmael in Makkah. And, that the Divine Laws are unchangeable under all circumstances. Bodily Ascension is a Biblical, and not a Quranic theme at all.

With the Glorious Name of Allah, the Instant and Sustaining Source of all Mercy and Kindness.
171 Glorious is He Who initiated the migration by night of His servant from the Sacred Masjid to the Remote Masjid whose environs We did bless that We might show him of Our Signs (2023). (That the Divine System will begin to prevail from therein). Verily, He is the Hearer, the Seer.

Fahad1

Peace Fahad

Allah ordered Lot to travel by night in the following verses. The above article mentions these 2 verses as well as the 3 with regard to Moses.That will make Lot a strong contender along with Moses for the night traveller position.

11 81
Pickthall (The messengers) said O Lot! Lo! we are messengers of thy Lord; they shall not reach thee. So travel with thy people in a part of the night, and let not one of you turn round (all) save thy wife. Lo! that which smiteth them will smite her (also). Lo! their tryst is (for) the morning. Is not the morning nigh?

Qa_lu_ ya_ lu_tu inna_ rusulu rabbika lay yasilu_ ilaika fa asri bi ahlika bi qit'im minal laili wa la_ yaltafit minkum ahadun illa-mra'atak(a), innahu_ musibuha_ ma_ asa_bahum, inna mau'idahumus subh(u), alaisas subhu bi qarib(in).

15 65
Pickthall So travel with thy household in a portion of the night, and follow thou their backs. Let none of you turn round, but go whither ye are commanded.

Fa asri bi ahlika bi qit'im minal laili wa-ttabi' adba_rahum wa la_ yaltafit minkum ahaduw wa-mdu_ haisu tu'maru_n(a).

Salaam Warner.

I have replied here http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13956.msg120662#msg120662

.

warner

Peace Arnold

Thank you for the valued input. I was not aware that this
discussion was taking place on this subject.

Can 171 be evidence against the presumption that
Al Masjid ul Haram and Masjidul Aqsa are non-physical
places or that they mean Institute of hearing and obeying the forbidden
and Institute of hearing and obeying the farthest , respectively?

unknownuser

Peace Arnold

Thank you for the valued input. I was not aware that this
discussion was taking place on this subject.

Can 171 be evidence against the presumption that
Al Masjid ul Haram and Masjidul Aqsa are non-physical
places or that they mean Institute of hearing and obeying the forbidden
and Institute of hearing and obeying the farthest , respectively?

Peace warner and all,

If Masjidul Aqsa doesn't refer to a particular building then we can translate Musjidul Haram as the place forbidden to obey God, and according to the cross references I would go with that interpretation.

The verse 1087 says that God told Moses to make some homes as Qibla and establish the salat prayer. When Moses and his brother succeeded to get attentions of the people the chiefs of Pharaoh asked him to act strongly as you can see in 7127. In 4026 Pharaoh said I won't let Moses to change people's religion and I would kill him. So finally Moses and his people had to leave that place.

When you see all these evidences and translate Masjidul Haram as a place forbidden to obey God make sense perfectly.

And now the last part of the verse 171 which refer to show him some of My sign's, again if we use cross reference you can see that what God wanted to establish Moses and his people and make them leaders in the land

285-6 And We desired to bestow a favor upon those who were deemed weak in the land, and to make them the Imams, and to make them the heirs, And to grant them power in the land, and to make Firon and Haman and their hosts see from them what they feared.

Does it make sense?

Peace, Hamsa

warner

Peace Rasulhamza,

Thanks for your input.

Masjidul Haram as a place forbidden to obey God make sense perfectly.

This is new. You should use your cross reference in other places the same term is repeated.

The verse 1087 says that God told Moses to make some homes as Qibla and establish the salat prayer.

Read the verse again. Does it say that?

Moses and the Children of Israel were shown signs on the way, unless you want to name the complete distance from Egypt to Jerusalem (probably) as Masjidul Aqsa. When they arrived at the gate the Children of Israel refused. So the signs shown to Moses were before and not after arriving. So if they inherited the land it is at least 40 years later and after Moses.

Peace

unknownuser

Peace Rasulhamza,
Thanks for your input.
This is new. You should use your cross reference in other places the same term is repeated.
Read the verse again. Does it say that?
Moses and the Children of Israel were shown signs on the way, unless you want to name the complete distance from Egypt to Jerusalem (probably) as Masjidul Aqsa. When they arrived at the gate the Children of Israel refused. So the signs shown to Moses were before and not after arriving. So if they inherited the land it is at least 40 years later and after Moses.
Peace

171 doesn't fit that chapter if we think that was Prophet Mohammed, I'll wait till someone come with good arguement about that.

Peace all, Hamsa

warner

Peace Rasulhamsa

I respect your view , mine is different and the verse itself offers very little evidence for us to bring up strong arguments.

Will you be able to explain the reason you think it could not have been Muhammad who is mentioned in 171

unknownuser

Peace Rasulhamsa
I respect your view , mine is different and the verse itself offers very little evidence for us to bring up strong arguments.
Will you be able to explain the reason you think it could not have been Muhammad who is mentioned in 171

Peace all,

Because Quran mentions three journeys of Moses, first from Egypt to Madyan and in this journey he got saved from Pharaoh and was able to get abode and a new family, second from Madyan to Egypt and in this journey he was given some signs at a sacred valley(2012) and also was told same as in 171 'to show some signs' read 2023, third his final journey when he left Egypt with his people and in this journey enemies of Moses destroyed and Moses and his people was saved as promised by God.

These three journeys and promise of showing him signs in 2023 as well, make Moses a stronger candidate. So 171 could refer to any of his three journeys.

If Quran mentions about any journey and promise of showing signs to Prophet Mohammad then sure i can think about them until then my conclusion is same as Fahad's.

Peace, Hamsa

warner

Peace

18 1

Yusuf Ali Praise be to Allah Who hath sent to His Servant the Book and hath allowed therein no Crookedness

Al hamdu lilla_hil lazi anzala 'ala_ 'abdihil kita_ba wa lam yaj'al lahu_ 'iwaja_(n).

25 1

Yusuf Ali Blessed is He Who sent down the Criterion to His servant that it may be an admonition to all creatures

Taba_rakal lazi naz zalal furqa_na ala_ abdihi liyaku_na lila_lamina nazira_

In the above two verses His Servant clearly refers to Muhammad the Messenger of Allah. Then why should "His servant" not be referring to Muhammad in 171. Is it coincident that the above two verses are the first in the particular chapters just as 171. And the constructions of all 3 verses are similar too.

unknownuser

Salaams,

Allah has called all His prophets His servants - i think.

using Burhans. Click on 251 (His Servant) and see who else is His servant.

Gods Blessings Br's.

warner

Peace Simple

There are verses similar to the following two which clearly identifies who is being referred to as the servant.

19 2
Yusuf Ali (This is) a recital of the Mercy of thy Lord to His Servant Zakariya.
Transliteration Zikru rahmati rab bika 'abdahu_ zakariy ya_

38 17
Yusuf Ali Have patience at what they say and remember Our Servant David the man of strength for he ever turned (to Allah).
Transliteration Isbir ala_ ma_ yaqu_lu_na waz kur abdana_ da_wu_da zal aid in nahu_ aw wa_b

There are other verses such as the following in which it is clear from the context its being referred to Muhammad.

2 23
Yusuf Ali And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant then produce a Surah like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (if there are any) besides Allah if your (doubts) are true.

Transliteration Wa in kuntum fi raibim mimma_ nazzalna_ 'ala_ 'abdina_ fa'tu_ bisu_ratim mim mislih(i), wad' syuhada_'akum min du_nilla_hi in kuntum sa_diqin(a).

That leaves us with the verses 171, 181 and 251 which do not identify ?His Servant?.

Are there any verses which do not identify the ?servant? by name or by context?