Using the word "muslim" in an english conversation
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7 years later, and I am still examining this )
When I initiated this thread, I lacked the (little bit of) knowledge of Arabic and grammar I needed to post the following question
I'm comparing two verses 272 and 1689. Translations vary, but I'm using corpus.quran.com to do a word-by-word analysis (Thanks Kais Dukes... wish you had time to finish the project).
Both verses are talking about (as I understand it) to whom the Quran is a guidance and glad tidings "believers" (2723) and "Muslims" (168924).
272 http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=27
1689 http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=16&verse=89I didn't count, but browsing through these dozens of translations http//www.islamawakened.com/quran/16/89/default.htm, it looks like about as many people translated the word as didn't (e.g. "surrendered themselves to God" vs. "Muslims"
My question involves parts of speech.
For you knowledgeable classical Arabic grammarians, I'm hoping someone can explain exactly what the difference is between these two words whereby one has been labeled a noun ("believers" and the other a proper noun ("Muslims" as seen in the links.
Both words have been categorized (in the links) as "genitive masculine plural (form IV) active participle" / " ".
In summary Is there anything in the derived word "" that indicates that it is a proper noun instead of a noun, or is this just an opinion (much like the opinion of those who choose not to translate the word)? Or another way to ask the question, how does one recognize whether an Arabic word is a proper noun?
My suspicion is that this is not a question that is answered by the rules of grammar / morphology / lexical word-formation, but of societal convention (i.e. how are people choosing to use the word)... and I believe such conventions can change over time.
Maybe its my old age but I truly understand your statements here.
Brother, you may not get the answer that you expect.
Do you know how Christianity was born? Christians never called themselves Christians. It was others who called them Christians.
Then Barnabas went to Tarsus to look for Saul, and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch. ? Acts 1125-26The word Christian repeats in Acts ? 2628 and 1 Peter 416. As you can see clearly, the word Christian is used by a third party to refer to followers of Christ. The more appropriate and original word is ?Nazarene? derived from the city Nazareth, or is it? Jesus is called the Nazarene (nazwraiou) in the bible as follows.
The even more appropriate name would be Muslim.
Nasara in Hebrew means "One who remains". One who stays or has submitted. Do you understand brother. Nasara. This is the Arabic word as well that refers to Christians in the Quran. Nasara in Arabic also is currently believed to mean Christian but how about the original meaning. It means one who follows, which is also akin to one who has submitted. Do you see? You have to have submitted yourself to follow someone or to remain with someone. Its the same as Islam or Muslim. The greek word for remain is emeinen and in various ways Jesus calls his disciples and followers those who remained. One word for this is Muslim. It is unfortunate that the NT has been written or converted into Greek though Jesus spoke Aramaic. If it stayed in the original text the word Nasara, Mushlam etc will be used heavily rather than a Greek using the word Nasara as if it is a proper name. Do you understand what I am saying.Another. This is directly to a Muslim but you can take what you may.
The belief that Islam, Christianity and Judaism etc are different religions etc is a questionable theology. It is cited that Abraham called people Muslims.
?And strive in the cause of God its truly deserved striving. He is the One who has chosen you, and He has made no hardship for you in the system, the creed of your father Abraham; He is the One who named you ?those who have submitted? (Muslimeen) from before and in this. So let the messenger be witness over you and you be witness over the people. So hold the contact prayer and contribute towards purification and hold tight to God, He is your patron. What an excellent Patron, and what an excellent Supporter.? - Qur?an
2278See the following verses.
2111 And they said ?None shall enter the Paradise except those who are Jewish or "Nasara";? this is what they wish! Say ?Bring forth your proof if you are truthful.?
2112 No; whoever submits (Aslamu) himself to God, while doing good, he will have his recompense with his Lord. There will be no fear over them, nor will they grieve. (One who Aslamu is a Muslim)
2113 And the Jews say ?The "Nasara" have no basis,? and the "Nasara" say ?The Jews have no basis,? while they are both reciting the Book! Similarly, those who do not know have said the same thing. God will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection in what they dispute.
Thus it is evident that Christians (Nasara) and Jews also can submit (One who submits is a Muslim) to God will be saved and God will judge between them. It is not for us to judge. Which indicates that one who submits or Aslamu is a Muslim and even one who calls himself Nasara also can be a Muslim.
2135 And they said ?Be Jewish or Nasara so that you may be guided!? Say ?No, rather the creed of Abraham, monotheism; for he was not of the polytheists.?
2136 Say ?We believe in God and in what was sent down to us and what was sent down to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the Patriarchs, and what was given to Moses and Jesus, and what was given to the prophets from their Lord; we do not make a distinction between any of them and to Him we submit.?
We are required to tell those call themselves Jewish or Nazarenes that Millat Ibrahim or the creed or religion of Abraham will save us all. See, there was only one prophet called Muhammed born in Arabia but Muslims are divided into various sects. Shia, Sunni, Wahabbi etc. But what ever the division you call yourselves of, you are a segment of Islam. Same way if we believe that Islam or submission was the only system authorised by God, whatever name we call ourselves is just a concocted name, the origin is Islam. Thus, Christianity is a segment of Islam.
But Christians and Jews etc are clearly differentiated from the Mumeens(Or mostly translated as Mumeens).
367 Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Nasara, but he was a monotheist who submitted; he was not of the polytheists.
368 The most legitimate people to Abraham are those who followed him; and this prophet, and those who believed (Amanu); and God is the supporter of the believers.As you can see, if Abraham himself was a Muslim and he called his followers Muslim as said in the Quran, Amanu or believers are differentiated from them and called one of the legitimate people. There is a clear difference between a Muslim and an Amanu or one who has submitted and a believer. This is where the real difference between Christian, Jews and Mumeens is. Muslim is more generic.
Thus, when the Quran says that Islam is the only religion or system, you actually dont have to be one who in current context calls himself a Muslim.
385 And whoever follows other than submission (Islam) as a system, it will not be accepted from him, and in the Hereafter he is of the losers.
See if Ahlil Kithab are clearly a different entity from Muslims, how can they be told that it will not be accepted from him while in so many other places the Quran says that people of the book can attain salvation.
Muslim and Mumeens are clearly differentiated.
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Firedragon - thanks for taking the time to post.
My impression is that you are supporting the belief that the word Muslim is not really a proper noun... although I wasn't certain because you said e.g.
Brother, you may not get the answer that you expect.
A few comments though on what you've said
It is cited that Abraham called people Muslims.
?And strive in the cause of God its truly deserved striving. He is the One who has chosen you, and He has made no hardship for you in the system, the creed of your father Abraham; He is the One who named you ?those who have submitted? (Muslimeen) from before and in this. So let the messenger be witness over you and you be witness over the people. So hold the contact prayer and contribute towards purification and hold tight to God, He is your patron. What an excellent Patron, and what an excellent Supporter.? - Qur?an
2278Earlier in this thread, I had suggested (like you) that Abraham had called people muslims. However, others pointed out it was God and not Abraham that called people Muslims.
367 Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Nasara, but he was a monotheist who submitted; he was not of the polytheists.
368 The most legitimate people to Abraham are those who followed him; and this prophet, and those who believed (Amanu); and God is the supporter of the believers.As you can see, if Abraham himself was a Muslim and he called his followers Muslim as said in the Quran, Amanu or believers are differentiated from them and called one of the legitimate people. There is a clear difference between a Muslim and an Amanu or one who has submitted and a believer. This is where the real difference between Christian, Jews and Mumeens is. Muslim is more generic.
Regarding 368, you said "There is a clear difference between a Muslim and an Amanu".
The following translation by Muhammad Asad seems to have a different meaning (i.e. it doesn't seem to support such a clear difference as you suggest)
368 Behold, the people who have the best claim to Abraham are surely those who follow him - as does this Prophet and all
who believe - and God is near unto the believers. -
Peace
SLaM = submission
MuSLiM =submitted one
MuSLiMYN = submitted onesAMaNA = believe
MUMiN =believer
MUMiNYN =believers4914The bedouins say, "We have believed." Say, "You have not believed; but say , 'We have submitted,' for faith has not yet entered your hearts....
Submitted one (muslim) is the name for all that are obeying the law/way of submission (SLM). Only GOD knows who from among us muslims are believes. And God says in the Quran that the majority are hypocrites.When somebody ask about your religion/way, just answer that it is SUBMISSION and that you are a SUBMITTEDONE, and if they do not understand then say Islam and I am a Muslim (these are Englishised Arabic words).
For those who say I am sunny muslim, or shia muslim, or wahaby muslim, or suffi muslim, or even american muslim, or british muslim, or quranist muslim, etcc. YOU CAN'T BE TWO THING AT THE SAME TIME, either you are muslim or the other word. A MUSLIM IS JUST A MUSLIM, AND when he is asked where he is from, he answers I am a muslim living in (name your country). If you put a name before the word muslim, it means that you are pleasing that ideology first and then after serving that one you serve the muslim ideology. EXAMPLE you cannot be a British Muslim, because it means that first you are going to please the queen first, and then after her you will please God.
JESUS SAID ?No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other.
Tell to those who add names either you are XXX or muslim.may God increase our knowledge and give us some wisdom.
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Peace,
I prefer not to use the word Muslim in daily talk because it has negative connotations here and recently I have discovered that the faith I have is way different from traditional "Islam" too.
I doubt any messenger spoke of labels to be honest. Either you have harmonized/submitted to God or you have not, but if you have not it is apparent in your behavior anyway enough to be showing a wannabe-behavior needing to express that "I am a muslim". Any person can say they are Muslim, but how many are truly aslam? If you are Muslim by behavior then you adhere to the decree/will and judgment of God and become harmonized.
Also if a person is one with faith is also something visible to someone with awareness. This is why Muhammad (or whatever his name is) said that they did not yet have faith.
And faith can be at varying level, you can have weak faith and strong faith or something in between.
The strongest have most benefit in their prayers because they have faith they will granted with highest determination. Such one could pray that a mountain would move and it would move. Or "today please do not rain" and it will not rain. And if rain clouds are over the region, precisely over the one with faith is a cleft of open sky.
Have faith
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I usually just say "i'm a submitter to the one creator" ... that's usually all i need to say to confuse the person. Then they would be like "so you ain't got a religion then" i'm like "no i do not.... i seek the truth and the truth alone - that is my system of life."
End of... person is usually hmming and ahhing and slightly whimsically confused P
Saying muslim/islam causes way too much negativity and assumptions.... ?_? in England anyway...
Even saying "God" has people thinking negatively, whereas because I say "creator of the universe(s)/ultimate designer/sole producer of everything", it drifts the persons mind away from thinking i believe in some personified emotional god of some sort...peace
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Peace sushi1992, all,
I usually say something similar as the things you say. If people don't ask me if I am a muslim, I never tell them that I am a muslim. If a non-muslim asks me if I am a muslim, I never give him/her a yes or no answer. I just tell him/her that I believe in God. If however, a muslim asks me if I am a muslim, I tell him/her that I am a muslim, but I am not religious. Then I explain to him/her what I mean by being a non-religious muslim. I usually tell him/her that I believe in God and in the importance of doing good deeds, but I don't go to the mosque, I don't pray the sunni or shia way and I don't fast for 30 days in Ramadan. For some reason, almost all traditional muslims in my town or elsewhere seem to ask me if I am a muslim. For some reason this question is very important for them. Another question I often get asked is this What is your nationality/ethnicity? Sometimes I tell them the this I am a human.
For more than 2500 years ago, when the deeply knowledgeable philosopher Socrates was asked a question about his ethnicity, he alledgedly said
"I am not Greek, I am not an Athenian! I am a world citizen!"
I like the above mentioned quote very much. But at the same time, my nationality is important to me. I also like the western world and have adopted some western values. I love that fact that western countries have democracy, freedom of expression, freedom of religion, value scientific progress and value human rights. But at the same time, I have a strong sense of nationalism. I love my homeland in Asia, just as much as I love the country I live in (in the west).
Zinedine Zidane, one of the greatest soccer stars of all times, once said these words
"I am proud of where I come from and never forget the people I grew up with. Wherever I go, La Castellane is where I want to go back to."
- Zinedine Zidane
Zinedine Zidane lived in france but his ethnicity was algerian. While I was watching games the soccer world cup of 2014 a few weeks ago, I pondered upon the value of Soccer and came to the conclusion that this great sport can bring people (from different nationalities) together. I am a supporter of unity in diversity. And I am also a supporter of pluralism in society. I don't like and have never liked assimilation (loss of ones own identity).
Even though I live in the western part of the world, and like this part of the world very much, just like Zinedine Zidane, I will never forget my country or my people. In a scene in the movie the "The Last Samurai", the Japanese emperor Meiji, starts to realize that the Japanese people have made a mistake by letting Britain westernize their country. By becoming too westernized, the Japanese had started to loose their own culture and values. The emperor of Japan realizes that the imperialistic policies of the British are not in the best interest of his people. Therefore he decides to stop his cooperation with the British people. The scene from the movie, is interesting and eye-opening IMO. I would like to share a link to the scene from the movie, so that you and/or other members in FM can watch it, if you want.
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWf6KvoGgAI
By the way, saying islam/muslim in the country I am in also causes too much negativity and assumptions. So in this aspect I think the country I am in is very similar to England. In the country I am in, it seems that many non-muslims are prejudiced when it comes to Islam. I guess the mainstream media is to blame for that.
Thank you for taking your time to read my post.
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Peace sushi1992, all,
I usually say something similar as the things you say. If people don't ask me if I am a muslim, I never tell them that I am a muslim. If a non-muslim asks me if I am a muslim, I never give him/her a yes or no answer. I just tell him/her that I believe in God. If however, a muslim asks me if I am a muslim, I tell him/her that I am a muslim, but I am not religious. Then I explain to him/her what I mean by being a non-religious muslim. I usually tell him/her that I believe in God and in the importance of doing good deeds, but I don't go to the mosque, I don't pray the sunni or shia way and I don't fast for 30 days in Ramadan. For some reason, almost all traditional muslims in my town or elsewhere seem to ask me if I am a muslim. For some reason this question is very important for them. Another question I often get asked is this What is your nationality/ethnicity? Sometimes I tell them the this I am a human. For more than 2500 years ago, when the deeply knowledgeable philosopher Socrates was asked a question about his ethnicity, he alledgedly said
"I am not Greek, I am not an Athenian! I am a world citizen!"I like the above mentioned quote very much. But at the same time, my nationality is important to me. I also like the western world and have adopted some western values. I love that fact that western countries have democracy, freedom of expression, freedom of religion, value scientific progress and value human rights. But at the same time, I have a strong sense of nationalism. I love my homeland in Asia, just as much as I love the country I live in (in the west).
Zinedine Zidane, one of the greatest soccer stars of all times, once said these words
"I am proud of where I come from and never forget the people I grew up with. Wherever I go, La Castellane is where I want to go back to." - Zinedine Zidane
Zinedine Zidane lived in france but his ethnicity was algerian. While I was watching games world cup, I pondered upon the value of Soccer and came to the conclusion that this great sport that can bring people (different nationalities) together. I am supporter of unity in diversity. And I am also a supporter of pluralism in society. I don't like and have never liked assimilation (loss of ones own identity).
Even though I live in the western part of the world, and like this part of the world very much, just like Zinedine Zidane, I will never forget my country or my people. In a scene in the movie the "The Last Samurai", the Japanese emperor Meiji, starts to realize that the Japanese people have made a mistake by letting Britain westernize their country. By becoming too westernized, the Japanese had started to loose their own culture and values. The emperor of Japan realizes that the imperialistic policies of the British are not in the best interest of his people. Therefore he decides to stop his cooperation with the British people. The scene from the movie, is interesting and eye-opening IMO. I would like to share a link to the scene from the movie, so that you and/or other members in FM can watch it, if you want.
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWf6KvoGgAI
By the way, saying islam/muslim in the country I am in also causes too much negativity and assumptions. So in this aspect I think the country I am in is very similar to England. In the country I am in, it seems that many non-muslims are prejudiced when it comes to Islam. I guess the mainstream media is to blame for that.
Thank you for taking your time to read my post.
handshake
For some reason i remember crying when I watched that movie..... it's a good movie...
If a "muslim"/traditional Muslim person asked me if i am muslim i just usually say "yeah..." but i try not to discuss further. Usually they say where were you from and i'm like "well I was born in England" and they are like "your roots?" and i usually tell them and they go "ma sha allah" and i just kinda go "yeah..."... I dont feel comfortable talking to traditionalists...... I think it happens in many areas of the world nowadays, especially in western society sadly enough....
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Peace-
Hmmm.... here's another thought
I find that the Arabic words al-Quran (), Islam () and Muslim () are characterized today as proper nouns. At the same time, I find that these are all derived words, correct?
My question are these words solely used as proper nouns?
It seems that an irrefutable answer to my question would be whether or not these words were used in Arabic literature prior to the revelation of the Quran.
Would welcome any knowledgeable feedback on this.
Samir
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Peace to all.
When an English speaking person asks me this question I say that I am a monotheist, for me it already implies submission to God and only God, makes a clear distinction from others like sunni/shia, Christians and Jews etc.. )
Best Regards.
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I would like to ask people who say that we should translate words like "muslim" into english language to accept their own advice and also try to translate other words that are not translated in the Q like tawrat (the law) injeel (good news), nesara (helpers), jehudi (linient ones) etc. othervise I agree with them in trying to translate words that are stuck in arabic in all languages.
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Peace,
I try to translate all Arabic words even if it has been a tedious task. Even tried to translate the word "Allah" literally as it means, according to current level of understanding, instead of using the word "god", as that is not entirely accurate, occasionally lately. I understand that the elah word has defined God as it is 'is that it is'. Sounds a bit dull for everyday use in English though, so I settle at God and instead imagine God standing for Galaxies O(u)niverse Dimensions, somewhat similar meaning, but still the Aramaic root word gives the best definition and that without imagination. God is 'that which is' and allegedly God said to Moses "I am that I am", which is a quite perfect definition of what God is, i.e. an abstract entity that simply exist with no beginning nor end.
We should all see God as something that is everywhere at the same time, and not some skyman sitting on a throne somewhere, to the extent that God is everything that you see. Materialization of God and the faith has caused its downfall in all times and Paganism with their many words and strange rituals have been there for millennia and not unique to the Islam religion but people fell victim in Zoroastrianism, Judaism and to some extent Christianity too. And none of them labels are a label of God's approved faith but God does not really deal in labels and not even have an own name for how much does "Allah" say other than what I wrote above, and God has not given people names of what to call their faith. Esm (used to advocate name) used in bism-Allah is more like "with the soul/energy of God"... Solomon issued a decree to the queen of Sheba with those words. When it is said traditionally that Abraham named you Muslims this is a wrong interpretation but your soul/spirit should be of Muslim. When you write bismillah then it is really serious and you must really do something bismillah.
Ah well. This was a bit off topic I guess. But rest assured I do my utmost to translate all Arabic words no matter what. We speak English and the message can be presented in English as well, no problem.
I do not really agree that torat means law though but rather instruction or a foundation and not specifically law; the word ketaab is used for that purpose more or less. Injeel may indicate a lesson in humbleness and a way to God. Nasara is probably correct that the "label" is helper even for those who has been thought of to mean Christians. Yahud is just a linguistic form of Hudan with implied form to probably mean that these people thought they are guides for people or the way to be, while their ways were all but sincere and rather corrupt. The real only label I have found is Children of Israel (bani israel).
Be of one in 'is that that it is'
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Sorry. Double post.
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I would like to ask people who say that we should translate words like "muslim" into english language to accept their own advice and also try to translate other words that are not translated in the Q like tawrat (the law) injeel (good news), nesara (helpers), jehudi (linient ones) etc. othervise I agree with them in trying to translate words that are stuck in arabic in all languages.
I agree (this was my underlying theme for this post), although I haven't yet really examined the words you listed.
... tried to translate the word "Allah" literally as it means, according to current level of understanding, instead of using the word "god", as that is not entirely accurate, occasionally lately. I understand that the elah word has defined God as it is 'is that it is'.
Thanks for your your posts. Is there a link or more information you can provide regarding how one can arrive at this conclusion? Or why "The God" is an incorrect translation?
I wonder how you would translate 18110
| svw
| word
| translation181106 Has been revealed 181107 to me 181108 that 181109 The God 1811010 (is) God 1811011 One. -
I refer to myself as a Muslim (a difficult thing to pull off for a white guy in Alabama), but I have reservations about using the name "Islam" as a religious identifier to note my following the Qur'an simply because of the current negative connotations associated with "Islam". If I say my religion is Islam, I find myself immediately having to qualify myself as being in THIS part of of the Muslim community as opposed to THAT part- and this, of course, being met with skepticism anyway because 'we all know that Koran book says to lie to everybody who ain't Muslims'.
I truly wish there were a better, more positive way to identify our faith, if only to stake out our corner of the world's religious community. I wonder if we shouldn't just drive a hard bargain and continue to refer to ourselves individually as Muslims, and refer to our faith as Islam, and specify that we follow the Qur'an only. If we don't put our foot down and put a name on ourselves and our faith, someone else surely will. In lighter conversations I have referred to myself as a Qur'anista (one who promotes the Qur'an) and it actually covered all the bases in that one word.
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I don't think Islam is a religion at all. Islam in the Quran is a "deen". Deen is often mistranslated as religion or faith. But the more accurate translation is SYSTEM. Now think about what religion means as a word to most citizens of Planet Earth. It's a private club with members, hierarchy & by laws. If you follow club rules and respect the leadership structure, you're in! If you question any club rules or leaders, your membership will be revoked. The Quran on the other hand, puts all the responsibility on the INDIVIDUAL to seek truth, contemplate Gods words & reach his/her own conclusions. So is Islam really a religion? By definition, I'd say no.
So say what you want. Personally I don't wish to associate with Sunnis and they have hijacked the terms "Islam" & "Muslims". Even though, by strict definition, that's what we are, I will say "Rationalist Monotheist". This will open up a world of questions & I can explain further. I've also said "Submitter" in the past which does the same. But either way, the choice is yours. What you're comfortable with. Labels mean nothing. Peace!
Aamer.
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I agree (this was my underlying theme for this post), although I haven't yet really examined the words you listed.
Thanks for your your posts. Is there a link or more information you can provide regarding how one can arrive at this conclusion? Or why "The God" is an incorrect translation?Well, 'The God' (be that God) is right as a literal translation when considering AL (be that) - LAH without giving any further thought into what the LAM and pronoun suffix intends to mean in the linguistic composition. LAM, the letter, seems to imply something distinct, definite (something existent) and I chose THAT as an English substitute for translation and demonstrative purposes. Regarding HA, as the suffix as in , I take that it means 'it (is)' as grammatical formula. I am currently working on whether the 'ha' can be an ending that contains alef + ha in the same symbol, meaning it would take a meaning of 'is it' or 'it is', otherwise the translation is 'be that - that it'. AL in ALLAH is just a grammatical function (almost), but it is important to know why ILAH also starts with Alef + Lam (be that - it is). The Arabic letter 'lam' has a very important innate meaning, and it is also marking some chapters of the scripture with Alef Lam + alternative letter, for example, Alef Lam + Meem or Alef Lam + Meem Ra etc. This is of course not just a coincidence that the chapters are introduced by these letters as they carry a meaning on their own and the answer is in the innate meaning of the letters themselves. When grasping their innate meaning then you need to picture something very very primitive in your mind, something simple, such as foundation/solidness for 'Ra' (used in RA - HMAN and RA - HEEM or AL - A'RDH and even RABB). My current work is still in progress so I am only partially complete in understanding. For 'saad' it is 'light' as primitive meaning, for example, Mosadeqeen = of 'light give express ones', its more comprehensive meaning I suppose you can create for yourself from the succession of words.
It may also be important to ponder upon why in the suggested phrase you gave for me to translate 'me' as a person is defined AL - Ye, perhaps 'be that of/integrity' and everything seems to reflect back to that AL - L - AH is Creator.
I wonder how you would translate 18110
| svw
| word
| translation181106 Has been revealed 181107 to me 181108 that 181109 The God 1811010 (is) God 1811011 One. My translations may begin to differ quite heavily from traditional interpretations, and it is not that I can swear by God that it is accurate before I have managed to master the Arabic fully. I am sorry that this is a very primitive translation. I gave the passage from the beginning because the phrase you gave me to translate is very much out of context without the first part.
Express-that Be-one(s)-of-is is-one(s)-is with-behave-foundation of-"example"-that-just-of in-and-good-in 'be-that-in' (i.e. I/me), be-ones-of-is 'is-that-it-is-just-of' 'is-that-it-is' (ELAH) and good give...
If you allow me to manipulate the text to create a paraphrasing in English the passage may sound like this
Say that (express that) Be of ones who are just and good in behavior like that of me, be those ones just of 'is-that-it-is' (God) and do good (original literal give good).
Without spending too much time I brought forth this translation. It is based on what I know of Arabic at this time, but it will, God willing, get better soon. It is very little based on bias from people who think they know Arabic, but I gave it my own thinking while breaking down the language into pieces first before making an attempt at understanding.
The problem with the traditional interpretation is that they make God into a foreign and stranger entity rather than acknowledging that God is near and for the people to be like God and that the one told to 'express-that' was to be followed in that he was fair and good. We are to follow God in spirit and the spirit ought to be found in a prophet and messenger hence making him a decent target to follow what is good and fair in him.
God's lesson topic for the entire Qur'an in whole is to be fair and good and with this spirit insight one may get far. Leave the ego behind and become of the "We" that are in the narration.
What I discover is just reinforcing what I have been tinkering about for the past one or two years, and overall what has been my philosophy of God for the past ten years and more. The beginning of "my" thread 'Nearness and Guidance' talked much about the primary goals of "Islam", or rather God's faith/realm and the more I work in the spirit of fairness and the good nature of God's faith the more I realize this is what it is all about.
(the) God (or 'good' that it may be derived from) is not a bad label, but it does not equal to the choice of Allah in Qur'an but more like Rahman or Raheem, or even 'rabb'. God is the label for the function of God, while Allah is the condition of the very being of God (mere existence). God is not a name nor is Allah a name, but they are like 'spirit of', (alef) seen + meem. Thus it does not matter if you refer to God as, for example, Ahura Mazda as long as they stand for the same thing as Allah. I also "think" that Buddha is a gradual distortion and misconception of their very own faith after studying some Buddhism because Buddha and the faith does not add up but yet if you distance yourself from some conjecture you can understand that when words and works of Buddha are talked about you can understand they talk about the spirit of God. That they make images/statues of Buddha is a gross error from their part and likely a long-lasting misconception, but when I studied their faith; beneath the surface I could see what the Qur'an teaches and their spiritual realm and philosophies match what you want to accomplish in what is called Islam, except that they happen to believe in reincarnation and some other things which is likely conjecture over time. However, "Muslims" also do a gross error when they associate the building in the town called Mekka with God. Ignorance is not limited to one sect.
Man has often had a trouble getting into their heads that nothing in Heaven or Earth should be portrayed as an image of God and attributed, and it was one of the first rows in the revelation that got inscribed in stone to Moses. Yet people keep various things holy such as locations or items or even people. And a location never becomes as holy as those inhabiting it.
Be of one with God
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Thanks for your posts.
I don't think Islam is a religion at all. Islam in the Quran is a "deen". Deen is often mistranslated as religion or faith. But the more accurate translation is SYSTEM. Now think about what religion means as a word to most citizens of Planet Earth. It's a private club with members, hierarchy & by laws. If you follow club rules and respect the leadership structure, you're in! If you question any club rules or leaders, your membership will be revoked. The Quran on the other hand, puts all the responsibility on the INDIVIDUAL to seek truth, contemplate Gods words & reach his/her own conclusions. So is Islam really a religion? By definition, I'd say no.
What you've said resonates with my conclusions. It reminded me of something I had written a few days ago "I find that God's guidance is for people... I believe it is for the INDIVIDUAL. It is not for the GROUP. A group's behavior is as a result of the aggregate choices of its members."
Man of Faith Thanks for taking the time to walk me through your thinking. Good luck in the development of your tinkering and understanding. For me, the tinkering seems to be a daily and never-ending thing...
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May your soul be protected, brother SAbboushi,
What I am glad over is that the tinkering has led to further understanding and not so much into further questions. Delving into the very foundation of Arabic was a wise decision in my opinion rather than remaining in confusion left with a lot of words and meanings propagated by people void of knowledge that are also quite arrogant on their stance. Admittedly I "recycled" what they knew to discover the meaning of the letters involved in words, but at least I thought on my own and some words/letters I have actually corrected myself. And through these means I have also found more upright translations of passages that seem atrocious and verging on oppressive. One word I am glad to have discovered its true meaning is 'kafar', even if I have changed my opinion several times on it, and now I no longer consider it to be in opposition to God, but rather be void of sound judgment, such as the fools in the "Islamic State". What I have known for quite some time is that it does not translate as "disbeliever" or lack of faith in God. Heck not even belief exists in the realm of God because God does not deal in belief but is a rather confident being. Only opposite case is to be without knowledge, self-insight.
A question is the final judgment on the promised day when a person was completely oblivious of the fact there is a creator during his or her lifetime and how God will judge then, if this person was like God in deed and behavior while ignoring the fact that there is a creating force in this universe that also is the universe itself. It is among my only questions I have and according to my realization it may not be that these people are doomed to Hell just for lacking knowledge or being misinformed and hence drawn the wrong conclusions. What I find that God will look on the most is just what was the deeds and behavior of this soul when it was still present on Earth.
Be of one with God