ALERGY to the Words: Quran , Muslim etc !
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Peace to all,
I agree with you completely Honor (as usual), it seems that some are more concerned with the trivial minutia of interpretations and lose the bigger picture. I have generally stayed quiet on these types of issues because I am only certain over a few things, and they are the important ones. I am a Muslim because thats what I feel like and I know what it means for me, if others arent or dont feel comfortable saying they are thats fine with me, but why are we here on this forum, isnt this Progressive Muslims.org? However, I also believe that since we are a young and new (true) form of Islam that others have strayed from we must be careful and patient before we really openly declare what we believe and stand for, hence, i am patient. There are many very intelligent and hard working brothers and sisters here that are doing alot of good research and trying to define what our core priciples are. But much of this is not needed or vital for our souls salvation. So in the meantime, I say Im a Muslim because I believe in and submit to God only, and I believe that the Quran was revealed as the final and most perfect revelation to the Prophet Mohammad by God, it does confirm and correct exactly what and where I always doubted or was confused. I was walking in confusion my whole life because I was raised Roman Catholic, i tried my best to be devout, but something was missing inside my soul that I could only feel but not define. I struggled, strayed, and always searched, and searched, not knowing what for or why, until I read the Quran, then I felt a slow and subtle settling of my soul, I found inner peace that I knew was the truth i was looking for, I havent had a bad day since.
So, while I do think its ok and acceptable for us to try to refine and define some of the minor issues, and that many here are doing a great job at this, and I appreciate everyones contributions and opinions, I still believe that if we dont at least agree on a few core beliefs that make us different than others , then what is the point of this whole endeavor, were not here just for vain talk and idle sport are we.
Again, Honor, im with you sister, hope all is going well for you.
Kurt
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Salam All~
No offense, but I think alot of people here on this post, are missing the entire point of being muslim. Seems you have gotten so wrapped up in segregating yourself from sunnis and shias, that your forgetting who you really are, or what I should say, who you should be. If you cannot call yourself muslims, call your religion Islam, and can't call the Quran by its arabic name, then I think you have a real problem. And Wakas, no offense...but I think you are almost transgressing. When you sit there, and try and break down every single word and thing about the Quran and make it difficult for yourselves and others and when that is what the majority of your effort is in, you are no longer educating yourself for benefit, but being led away from the purpose. Why dont you take a break, read the quran without your lexicon, and without the forum, and without all your scholarly translations, and see if it becomes any clearer. I hate to sound B**chy,.. but I find it appalling and downright ridiculous that all of you who have these issues with arabic words, and name of islam and muslims, and such...you have such a pointless effort to delude others in calling themselves muslims, and calling the Quran by its name, and Islam as our religion.
GIVE ME A BREAK! brickwallWhile I can see where you are coming from, I believe you are misinterpreting brother Wakas' intentions. He is not trying to make it more difficult, but by translating these words, (islam, muslim, quran) using them as he feels they were written instead of using them as proper nouns, he's trying to make things more clear. It's not so much that he has issues with arabic words, but that he believes the meaning of the words is more important than the words themselves. I'm sure he has read the quran many times in different translations and maybe untranslated, I know I've read more translations than i can count. Perhaps it is you who should try reading the quran with his translation and see if it changes the message or not, or if it clarifies or clouds your reading.
This forum is a place of discussion, where we can learn from each other and occasionally disagreements will happen, if they never did, there would never be any real learning but just a forum full of bobbleheads agreeing without thinking with each other. We need not only be "Free Minds" but occasionally open minds as well.
Peace,
Nurd
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peace honor, all,
And Wakas, no offense...but I think you are almost transgressing.
No offence taken. I would prefer however, if you brought forth an argument actually based on al quran's use of the words. It is a very simple request.
Anyone on this forum can go through the occurrences in 'al quran' and see for themselves how it uses the words islam/quran/muslim. The proof is in the pudding.
Nurd, your comments were spot on in terms of the point I was making.
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While I can see where you are coming from, I believe you are misinterpreting brother Wakas' intentions. He is not trying to make it more difficult, but by translating these words, (islam, muslim, quran) using them as he feels they were written instead of using them as proper nouns, he's trying to make things more clear. It's not so much that he has issues with arabic words, but that he believes the meaning of the words is more important than the words themselves. I'm sure he has read the quran many times in different translations and maybe untranslated, I know I've read more translations than i can count. Perhaps it is you who should try reading the quran with his translation and see if it changes the message or not, or if it clarifies or clouds your reading.
This forum is a place of discussion, where we can learn from each other and occasionally disagreements will happen, if they never did, there would never be any real learning but just a forum full of bobbleheads agreeing without thinking with each other. We need not only be "Free Minds" but occasionally open minds as well.
Peace,
Nurd
Salam Nurd~
Thank you for your kind refuttal. I agree with you, I think brother Wakas is trying hard to find truth, and research root literal meanings, however..I disagree, I do not feel the need to spend hours/days/weeks/ devote my life to looking for reasons not to call myself muslim, the religion Islam, and the Quran by its given name. I am content and will remain content to always call these three names by their Arabic names. And I am not even an Arab. There is a reason why the Quran came in Arabic. And if Islam, means submission to god..and someone says what is your religion, I don't need to say the meaning but the word, so I will say Islam, and if they ask what that means I will describe the meaning. Same with Muslim and Quran. But apologies to brother Wakas if i picked on him. I am grateful to his education in this forum, and enjoy many of his posts, but I can also disagree. And I still admit, sometimes I feel that Wakas and others are led away from the purpose and point, endlessly searching a futile subject, that serves no real purpose.
Kind regards, and apologies to those I offended.
Honor
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peace honor, all,
No offence taken. I would prefer however, if you brought forth an argument actually based on al quran's use of the words. It is a very simple request.
Anyone on this forum can go through the occurrences in 'al quran' and see for themselves how it uses the words islam/quran/muslim. The proof is in the pudding.
Nurd, your comments were spot on in terms of the point I was making.
Salam Wakas,
I am sorry if I offend you and come off arrogant and rude, sometimes I am emmotional. However brother, I have used occurences as proof. Just go to SAbboushi's thread on Calling yourself Muslim and you will see my post. Once again my apologies, I really do like you
Honor
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peace honor,
I just checked the thread you refer to. You referenced 2278 as your evidence. That's fine, I have no problem with that, but just so we are clear, out of 42 occurrences of the word "muslim" you cited 1.
How many references can you cite for the words "quran" and "islam"?
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Salam Wakas,
You must of not read the entire post, you only say one ayat?? I gave several, and in most of them not only will you find the word muslim, but Islam. As far as the Quran, you can see that cited under the same post, when Im talking about how it came in Arabic.
Honor
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Peace,
Honor every quote you quoted you should translated all of the words including the words Muslim and translate that into submissive or submissive ones in every place where you have the word Muslim or Muslims.
AhmedBaghat,
You should translate every occurance of the word 'Quran' ONLY WITHIN THE QURAN to a reading or the reading (even this reading in some cases).
However when speaking about the book outside of the Quran you should refer to it by its man-made nickname the Quran. Calling it the great reading only repeats the same process by which we have the nickname the Quran, but in English. I don't think two wrongs make a right.Godbless,
Anwar -
Salamun alaykum
Changing The Quran into " The Great Reading " is not a Progressive Step , but rather a Retrograde ( Retrogressive ) move . The reality is , The Quran is widely known By Muslims ( Submitters ) and Non Muslims alike . So why the Need to change it into The Great Reading ? What is the Compelling Reason that demand this change ?
Just try to walk into your major Book Store and ask for "The Great Reading" and find out the reaction of the Sales-Assistant . I tried it yesterday at Angus and Robertson's Store as well as Dymocks Store , gues what ? They took me around the store and showed me all The Late Releases from Wilbur Smith novel to How to be a millionaire working 2 hours a day without leaving your home , the sales-assistants told me They are all Great Readings . None of them knew that I was looking for The Quran .Peace
almarh0m
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peace almarh0m,
I actually agree that changing "quran" to "great reading" isn't really necessary. But the point that needs to be made is that this book really doesn't have a title. It's "a quran." It's "a reading" (not even great). I think that's been proven. And using (or mis-using) quran as a title doesn't create an y confusion. It does with the words "muslim" and "islam"
If the quran says we must unite with other "muslim" people, how will you do that? Will you look for people who call themselves Muslims? even if they are horrible people? No, you wouldn't. You will look for "true" muslims, but that isn't a term used by the quran. A muslim person is just a muslim person. This is a pretty simple concept, and I think people's emotional attachment to these words is preventing them from understanding it. -
Salaam all
phoenix which verse says that muslims should be united? This is a genuine question.
In fact I think there is a point in translating the quraan into The Great Reading, especially to many muslims who tend to just put the quraan as a decoration in the hous or hang some decorated verses on the wall. My father "whom I think now of as being a quraan aloner" went to my married sister's house and saw one of these verses hanging. He asked her what that was, she said from the quraan. He said to her "it is called quraan not mir'aa (mirror, derived from the verb to see)". When people think of it as a title, they forget that it is a must read.
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phoenix which verse says that muslims should be united? This is a genuine question.
It was a hypothetical. I said, "if." (I wasn't trying to make stuff up, just so you know)But I think the quran does say something about making the right friends? Or even if the quran doesn't, we should make the right friends, and we can't do that if we go by superficial labels.
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Peace Samia, all,
If I may try to help out here...
2352 And verily, this community of yours is one community and I am your Sustainer. So, walk aright remaining conscious of Me."
And I agree with you about people hanging verses on the wall. We act like having those words there has some sort of power in itself, when in fact, it is in the reading of and application of the words that empowers.
Peace,
Tay -
We act like having those words there has some sort of power in itself, when in fact, it is in the reading of and application of the words that empowers.
A very good point, something that traditionalists have either forgotten about or have never understood in the first place.
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Salamun alaykum
When I started this thread , my intention was to find out from the People in this Forum about what is the compelling reason to change al-Quran into The Great Reading and also what possible benefit this change would bring to the Believers ( Muslims ) . If I did not express myself clearly , I offer my apologies . I was never against Translating The Whole Quran into an Easily understood Languages as I stated in my subsequent posts . The reason I did not condensed them all in the Initial post is nothing other than Readabilty . I do not believe in writing a lengthy and wordy post , I try to avoid as much as I can Argumentum Verbosium . If I feel like writing a long and wordy piece , I'd write a feature article instead.
Just to clarify my View of the subject of this thread again , I prefer to use the The key Terms such as " The Quran , Muslim , Islam , Salam etc , however , I am not against Translated meanings and all is free to follow their own beliefs anyway . We do not have much more in common than The Deen Al-Islam , The Quran or The Reading , so let us stick to the Glue that binds Us .
Peace
almarh0m
