Comments/Rebuttal to article by Wakas: An Understanding of Salat from Al Quran
-
peace IQO.
Thank you for the "rebuttal".
However you clearly did not understand the following point of my article even though it was bold and underlined!
"slw = go/turn towards. This is the core meaning of a general concept."
Most of your comments stem from this misunderstanding. I am happy for members to review my article then review your "rebuttal", then make up their own mind.
Thanks.
-
peace IQO.
Thank you for the "rebuttal".
However you clearly did not understand the following point of my article even though it was bold and underlined!
"slw = go/turn towards. This is the core meaning of a general concept."
Most of your comments stem from this misunderstanding. I am happy for members to review my article then review your "rebuttal", then make up their own mind.
Thanks.
Salaams Wakas bro,
I think I understand what you are saying, it is just that I did not try to take that as the most powerful point of the article. Many points and words in the article are in bold font and underlined, etc., so there was no reason for me to take it that way. Even if I did, it is still a major part of the foundation of your conclusions. I find it hard to accept a completely new meaning that no translator, dictionary or lexicon can support; although I wouldn't say that this is impossible. I just don't agree with it in this particular case.
I think the key is not just looking at the "root" of "Salaat", but looking at the different forms of the root verb and seeing how they are used and how they interact with other words within the Quran. This will clearly give different meanings in different ayat so that "pray, prayer" will not be the meaning each time. But this in no way negates the ayat that DO reflect that meaning. Of course many of the past translators messed it up by translating it exactly the same all the time, but that doesn't mean that they had it wrong EVERY time.
I will make a post showing my understanding of these different uses over the next few days, Allah willing.
As-Salaamu Alaikum, peace
-
peace IQO,
I find it hard to accept a completely new meaning that no translator, dictionary or lexicon can support; although I wouldn't say that this is impossible. I just don't agree with it in this particular case.
The core meaning I gave can be evidenced by reviewing every single occurrences in 'al quran', including every form of that root. Furthermore, it is similar to "al-musalli" (used for a horse close to the first in a race, so close as be in "touch" with it so to speak) which is found in Classical Arabic Dictionaries. Furthermore, all possible meanings in lexicons except perhaps rump and central portion of the back are inherently positive words containing the core meaning. Many translators have used the core meaning, such as Parwez.
The above is far from no evidence. It shows you have not reviewed the occurrences in 'al quran' extensively, nor considered the Classical Arabic meanings to find a common theme or what links them etc.
I think the key is not just looking at the "root" of "Salaat", but looking at the different forms of the root verb and seeing how they are used and how they interact with other words within the Quran.
Exactly, and this is what I did. To disprove my point, please bring only one occurrence of the root in any form in the whole of 'al quran' that does not encompass the core meaning I gave in my article. It is a simple request IF your view is correct that is.
-
As Salaamu Alaikum Wakas
peace IQO,
The core meaning I gave can be evidenced by reviewing every single occurrences in 'al quran', including every form of that root. Furthermore, it is similar to "al-musalli" (used for a horse close to the first in a race, so close as be in "touch" with it so to speak) which is found in Classical Arabic Dictionaries. Furthermore, all possible meanings in lexicons except perhaps rump and central portion of the back are inherently positive words containing the core meaning. Many translators have used the core meaning, such as Parwez.
The above is far from no evidence. It shows you have not reviewed the occurrences in 'al quran' extensively, nor considered the Classical Arabic meanings to find a common theme or what links them etc.
I have reviewed the material in question, and it only "your opinion and assessment" that I have not. Erroneous as it may be, you are entitled to it. I didn't use the reference you make as conclusive evidence, and as a matter of fact stated that there could be an exception, or that it may not be impossible to achieve a meaning never used. Please read carefully what I wrote previously.
Exactly, and this is what I did. To disprove my point, please bring only one occurrence of the root in any form in the whole of 'al quran' that does not encompass the core meaning I gave in my article. It is a simple request IF your view is correct that is.
I did that already in the refutationm, please reread the example given. Your "core meaning" is not as you have tried to describe it here, but it is actually your "definition". You want to apply the core meaning to all occurances without regard to form and/or subject matter. This is not necessary or reasonable for ALL words used in Al Quran.
If you want it to mean only being a part of the "core meaning", then please give us your "new definitions" for all of the different forms coming from the root "SLW" and how they should be interpreted at each point in Al Quran. Since you have not done this so far, then my understanding is that you have applied this "core meaning", hence as your definition in each situation. Until you show me otherwise, this is all that I have to go on from your perspective.
As Salaamu Alaikum peace
-
Peace Imam
One instance is all. Not a huge task. One instance. Surely you can oblige.
I hope this conversation will not degrade into a bunch of requests and shootings down.
Joe
As Salaamu Alaikum,
I think that I suffciently gave the example in the article when I said
You are saying that none of these translations have it right, but instead it should be translated as
?Oh you who believe, do not approach/come near ?the going/turning towards (turning/going towards)? when you are intoxicated, till you can understand all that you say??.?
If that is what you are suggesting, then that doesn?t make any sense to me at all. That could easily be interpreted to mean not to try and do better if you are intoxicated or have had sex. Why would Allah tell us such a crazy thing? Surely this definition does not fit all situations where ?SLW? is used. There should be no need to give additional examples here.
As Salaamu Alaikum peace
-
Peace IQO,
?Oh you who believe, do not approach/come near ?the going/turning towards (turning/going towards)? when you are intoxicated, till you can understand all that you say??.?
If that is what you are suggesting, then that doesn?t make any sense to me at all. That could easily be interpreted to mean not to try and do better if you are intoxicated or have had sex. Why would Allah tell us such a crazy thing? Surely this definition does not fit all situations where ?SLW? is used. There should be no need to give additional examples here.You are saying that "turning towards" doesn't make sense to you and yet here is what you said in your WHAT IS SALAT post
It ensures that believers constantly turn to Allah and assists believers in living in the light of Allah?s commandments.
So perhaps it at least makes some sense to you. On the other hand, your interpretation of "salat" as "prayer" doesn't make sense
?Oh you who believe, do not approach/come near ?prayer? when you are intoxicated, till you can understand all that you say??.?
Are you suggesting that when someone is intoxicated and is facing somekind of imminent danger or wants to be forgiven, he shouldn't pray to the god to save him or forgive him but should wait until he is sober and even then he can only do it at a special time? This doesn't make sense.
Also, are you saying that someone who had sex with his wife shouldn't pray to the god to give him a child or to guide them but should wait until he washes and then he can only pray at dawn or the other times you suggested?
Clearly, your proposed meaning of "prayer" doesn't make much sense here. I would say that one can pray at any and all times and there are no constraints on prayer. You should try to find another translation for "salat" other than prayer. The translation should provide for a meaning that accomplishes your correct statement
It ensures that believers constantly turn to Allah and assists believers in living in the light of Allah?s commandments.
It is an empirically verifiable fact that Jews, Christians and sectarians who believe in the god pray to the god and yet this prayer doesn't result in them "turning to the god" nor "assist them in living in the light of the god?s commandments". So according to your own statement, "prayer" cannot be "salat".
I hope this helps everyone.
Peace,
Ayman
-
peace IQO,
I think I understand what you are saying, it is just that I did not try to take that as the most powerful point of the article. Many points and words in the article are in bold font and underlined, etc., so there was no reason for me to take it that way.
Please dont exaggerate. It was the ONLY part in my article that was bold AND underlined. Clearly suggesting it was the most important point of the article, or at least one of the most important points. To not understand this point has led you to more misunderstandings in your "rebuttal", including your example that does not apparently fit
?Oh you who believe, do not approach/come near ?the going/turning towards (turning/going towards)? when you are intoxicated, till you can understand all that you say??.?
In my article, I also state
One could substitute this term with similar words such as link/bond/connect, remain attached, continue contact, follow closely or commitment, i.e. a word which implies to go/turn towards.
So lets substitute "go/turn towards (in a close/positive manner)" for "bond" and re-insert it into the example you gave
?Oh you who believe, do not approach/come near the bond when you are intoxicated, till you can understand all that you say??.?
One simply has to ask themselves, what "bond" could this possibly refer to? Interestingly and perhaps amazingly, there is only one possibility. If one is unable to figure out what this "bond" could possibly be, the article states
To gain a better understanding of The System/Obligation, it is clear a better understanding of al quran would be required. That is why a regular/timed salat is given. In this regular/timed salat, reading / reflection / oration of al quran is prescribed. This can be done alone or in a group/community setting.
...
This makes sense because it is only the mumin (believers/faithful/trustful) who are upholding the scripture. For them, to uphold/maintain the going/turning towards (i.e. link/bond) will be more specific and thus directly related to what the scripture contains, hence reading of it regularly.
One small problem I've encountered from my article is that it is so simple/subtle/obvious some miss the point or cannot understand what it means. So you are not alone, if you didn't understand it. This could be a fault in my part, i.e. not explaining it clearly, but it could just as easily be a fault in the part of the reader, i.e. clouded by their pre-conceived notions of what "salat" is. Many have read it and understood what I meant.
I was considering writing a much more comprehensive article on "salat" but it is not in my immediate priorities as I do not struggle with the "salat" concept anymore and I feel what I've written already is sufficient enough to get the idea out there, akin to showing a door, which the reader has to walk through themselves.
-
Peace IQO,
When we 'clutch our ideas' we fail to see or understand that which doesn't fit. We begin to see by letting go of those preconceived ideas and opening our hearts.
It's good to take stock from time to time to see what ideas we are currently clutching and reflect upon why. Fear is often at the root of the clutching.
Be well.
-
As Salaamu Alaikum ayman,
Sorry it took so long to respond, I have been away for a bit. I have a lot of catching up to do. I will start here
Peace IQO,
You are saying that "turning towards" doesn't make sense to you and yet here is what you said in your WHAT IS SALAT post
So perhaps it at least makes some sense to you......
The context of how I used it in that post is different from how he is using it. I think any reader should be able to ascertain that.
.......... On the other hand, your interpretation of "salat" as "prayer" doesn't make sense
?Oh you who believe, do not approach/come near ?prayer? when you are intoxicated, till you can understand all that you say??.?
Are you suggesting that when someone is intoxicated and is facing somekind of imminent danger or wants to be forgiven, he shouldn't pray to the god to save him or forgive him but should wait until he is sober and even then he can only do it at a special time? This doesn't make sense.
"As-Salaat" can be commonly translated as "The Prayer"; denoting a specialized prayer and not just the general term "prayer". As-Salaat should not be approached when intoxicated. That does not suggest or required that a person can not make "dua" (prayer) to Allah at any given time be it danger, to give thanks, or for any other reason that the person chooses. So it makes perfect sense if one understands the difference between "As-Salaat" and "Dua".
Also, are you saying that someone who had sex with his wife shouldn't pray to the god to give him a child or to guide them but should wait until he washes and then he can only pray at dawn or the other times you suggested?
Clearly, your proposed meaning of "prayer" doesn't make much sense here. I would say that one can pray at any and all times and there are no constraints on prayer. You should try to find another translation for "salat" other than prayer. The translation should provide for a meaning that accomplishes your correct statement
It ensures that believers constantly turn to Allah and assists believers in living in the light of Allah?s commandments.
I think that if you have understood that I clearly distinguish between "As-Salaat" and "Dua", and if you have understood the difference in what the two mean from Al-Quran, then you can agree that "Dua" can be done at ANY time as you are suggesting and giving examples of. As-Salaat contains dua, but it is more than that and therefore has the restrictions and guidelines imposed upon it by Allah, not me, as is given in Al Quran. Remember, "As-Salaat" = "The Prayer" and "Dua" = prayer. Big difference.
It is an empirically verifiable fact that Jews, Christians and sectarians who believe in the god pray to the god and yet this prayer doesn't result in them "turning to the god" nor "assist them in living in the light of the god?s commandments". So according to your own statement, "prayer" cannot be "salat".
I hope this helps everyone.
Peace,
Ayman
If you are suggesting that just because someone, whether they be Jews, Christians, Muslims or others; that because they prayer and then make mistakes there after that this suggests that they don't "turn to" God, I would have to disagree with you. Allah continually forgives those who repent, even if they continue to make similar mistakes; as long as they are sincerely repenting. This can be verified from Quranic text. As-Salaat is designed to do this, but it is only for those who follow Allah's commandments with sincere intentions, not following their own desires. Allah knows best whom As Salaat will benefit and whom it will not.
Thanks for your posts ayman. May Allah continue to bless and guide you, insha Allah.
As-Salaamu Alaikum, peace
-
Peace IQO,
When we 'clutch our ideas' we fail to see or understand that which doesn't fit. We begin to see by letting go of those preconceived ideas and opening our hearts.
It's good to take stock from time to time to see what ideas we are currently clutching and reflect upon why. Fear is often at the root of the clutching.
Be well.
As-Salaamu Alaikum ILisa,
Thank you for your contribution and comments. I have no desire to "clutch - ideas" in a way that would cause me to fail to see or understand that which doesn't fit. I let go and opened my heart a long time ago, starting with accepting Al-Quran as guidance from Allah to begin with. I didn't become "muslim" like most people who were born with "muslim" parents or who became introduced by going to a Masjid, etc. I was given a Quran and read it much later on my own when Allah called me to it. It was only reading the Quran only that caused me to become a muslim. At that time, I didn't even know what "hadeeth" were! I only came to learn of them TWO years later after I had accepted the Quran as my guidance and continued by joining a Masjid in order to follow it. Needless to say, I was discouraged by the state of the "muslim ummah" and their obession with "hadeeth" and their "Imams and Sheikhs". So even though I eventually became an "Imam", I have always caused problems and been sort of a rebel for the truth. Im sure that would make many sunnis comfortable to know that I always doubted the "hadeeth" and their methodologies of straying from Quranic guidance as followed by the sects. That way they can explain to themselves in their minds my "deviation" from the "sunnah". But Allah brought me to this way of life, and He continues to guide me. That is why I am following the Quran only, because Allah instructs me to, not because the free-minds website tells me to do so.
So I appreciate your warm heart felt comments. They caused me to want to share this bit of information about myself with you. We all have some sort of fears, when we should only fear Allah only. That is part of our striving to get there, insha Allah. The recognision is half the battle of getting there. You continue to be well also my sister in faith.
As-Salaamu Alaikum, peace
-
Peace IQO,
"As-Salaat" can be commonly translated as "The Prayer"; denoting a specialized prayer and not just the general term "prayer". As-Salaat should not be approached when intoxicated. That does not suggest or required that a person can not make "dua" (prayer) to Allah at any given time be it danger, to give thanks, or for any other reason that the person chooses. So it makes perfect sense if one understands the difference between "As-Salaat" and "Dua".
Al-dua also means The Prayer. Linguistically and logically, if you are saying that "Al-salat" means "The Prayer" and we know that "Al-dua" also means The Prayer then in fact you are implying that "Al-dua" is the same as "Al-salat". You can't escape this fact by haphazardly making up your own linguistic rules.
Also, where did you get that "salat" is a specialized form of "dua"? I don't think that this is mentioned in the great reading. You need to get this fundamental understanding right before jumping to building on it the supposed method of "salat".
I think that if you have understood that I clearly distinguish between "As-Salaat" and "Dua", and if you have understood the difference in what the two mean from Al-Quran, then you can agree that "Dua" can be done at ANY time as you are suggesting and giving examples of. As-Salaat contains dua, but it is more than that and therefore has the restrictions and guidelines imposed upon it by Allah, not me, as is given in Al Quran. Remember, "As-Salaat" = "The Prayer" and "Dua" = prayer. Big difference.
The definite article makes something definite but it doesn't change the meaning of the word. So "Al-dua" would also mean "The Prayer". Instead of making up fallacious linguistic rules and then building an entire book on them, I would suggest that you make a clean start and try to find an English word other than "the prayer" to denote "al-salat".
If you are suggesting that just because someone, whether they be Jews, Christians, Muslims or others; that because they prayer and then make mistakes there after that this suggests that they don't "turn to" God, I would have to disagree with you. Allah continually forgives those who repent, even if they continue to make similar mistakes; as long as they are sincerely repenting. This can be verified from Quranic text. As-Salaat is designed to do this, but it is only for those who follow Allah's commandments with sincere intentions, not following their own desires. Allah knows best whom As Salaat will benefit and whom it will not.
You made a good point when you said that "salat" results in "turning to the god" and in "living in the light of the god?s commandments". But then you failed to tell us anything about how your suggested method accomplishes this. The Christians, Jews and sectarians also believe that their ritual prayers result in "turning to the god" and in "living in the light of the god?s commandments".
Christians in fact perform "The Prayer" to the god and to Jesus, Maryam, saints, etc. and they take the cross as a focal point for their prayers to the god. Similarly, sectarians do "The Prayer" to the god and to Mohamed and their saints and take the black cube as a focal point for "The Prayer" to the god. Both people think that "The Prayer" that they do results in them "turning to the god" and in "living in the light of the god?s commandments". Is The Prayer that they do "al-salat" and the difference is merely in the method or is it more fundamental than that?
I would say that in order to really result in "turning to the god" and in "living in the light of the god?s commandments", then it is empirically verifiable that "al-salat" cannot be "the prayer" but it is the process by which you learn that "the prayer" is to be to the god alone and that you shouldn't make your focal point a cross, a cube or any object and that your only focal point should be the truth. Of course, all truth is from your lord.
You could have spent a hundred years doing "The Prayer" behind Christian, Jewish, or Sectarian Imams. As long as you are doing the particular Imam's method, then you would be doing "The Prayer" according to each Imam. However, you decided that something is not right and that there is a better path. Was it "The Prayer" that made you "turn to the god" and in try to "live in the light of the god?s commandments" and made you realize that "The Prayer" itself that you were doing was wrong? Or was it something else? This something else is "al-salat" and this is why it is so important.
I hope this helps.
Peace,
Ayman
-
As Salaamu Alaika ayman,
Before I spend time to respond to all of your comments, let me first say that I have not read enough of your posts or recent posts included, to fully understand what is your position on "As-Salaat". But from what you have written here, it appears to me that you don't believe that "As-Salaat" is a "physical ritual" at all, or in any form. If this is correct, please let me know. If you believe that it is only some sort of mental exercise and that there are no physical rituals at all attached to this exercise, then I can better understand your comments. Currently the logic in your comments don't make much sense to me unless that is your belief. So I am asking a question instead of assuming here.
Also, before I provide any evidence, are you suggesting that "Ad-Du'a" and "As-Salaat" are equivilant? Again I don't want to assume, so before I comment, I would like to know what your belief is. The rest of what I believe are errors, flaws in argument, or just wrong assumptions; I will save to comment on after you have responded to this post, insha Allah.
As-Salaamu Alaikum, peace
Peace IQO,
Al-dua also means The Prayer. Linguistically and logically, if you are saying that "Al-salat" means "The Prayer" and we know that "Al-dua" also means The Prayer then in fact you are implying that "Al-dua" is the same as "Al-salat". You can't escape this fact by haphazardly making up your own linguistic rules.
Also, where did you get that "salat" is a specialized form of "dua"? I don't think that this is mentioned in the great reading. You need to get this fundamental understanding right before jumping to building on it the supposed method of "salat".
The definite article makes something definite but it doesn't change the meaning of the word. So "Al-dua" would also mean "The Prayer". Instead of making up fallacious linguistic rules and then building an entire book on them, I would suggest that you make a clean start and try to find an English word other than "the prayer" to denote "al-salat".
You made a good point when you said that "salat" results in "turning to the god" and in "living in the light of the god?s commandments". But then you failed to tell us anything about how your suggested method accomplishes this. The Christians, Jews and sectarians also believe that their ritual prayers result in "turning to the god" and in "living in the light of the god?s commandments".
Christians in fact perform "The Prayer" to the god and to Jesus, Maryam, saints, etc. and they take the cross as a focal point for their prayers to the god. Similarly, sectarians do "The Prayer" to the god and to Mohamed and their saints and take the black cube as a focal point for "The Prayer" to the god. Both people think that "The Prayer" that they do results in them "turning to the god" and in "living in the light of the god?s commandments". Is The Prayer that they do "al-salat" and the difference is merely in the method or is it more fundamental than that?
I would say that in order to really result in "turning to the god" and in "living in the light of the god?s commandments", then it is empirically verifiable that "al-salat" cannot be "the prayer" but it is the process by which you learn that "the prayer" is to be to the god alone and that you shouldn't make your focal point a cross, a cube or any object and that your only focal point should be the truth. Of course, all truth is from your lord.
You could have spent a hundred years doing "The Prayer" behind Christian, Jewish, or Sectarian Imams. As long as you are doing the particular Imam's method, then you would be doing "The Prayer" according to each Imam. However, you decided that something is not right and that there is a better path. Was it "The Prayer" that made you "turn to the god" and in try to "live in the light of the god?s commandments" and made you realize that "The Prayer" itself that you were doing was wrong? Or was it something else? This something else is "al-salat" and this is why it is so important.
I hope this helps.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace IQO,
Before I spend time to respond to all of your comments, let me first say that I have not read enough of your posts or recent posts included, to fully understand what is your position on "As-Salaat". But from what you have written here, it appears to me that you don't believe that "As-Salaat" is a "physical ritual" at all, or in any form. If this is correct, please let me know. If you believe that it is only some sort of mental exercise and that there are no physical rituals at all attached to this exercise, then I can better understand your comments. Currently the logic in your comments don't make much sense to me unless that is your belief. So I am asking a question instead of assuming here.
First, "salat", like everything else we do has a physical aspect. For example, giving charity has a physical aspect. However, if someone says you have to put your right hand in your left pocket and give to the poor person and then put your forehead on the floor three times, otherwise your charity is not valid, then the physical method becomes the primary aspect and this becomes a mindless mechanical ritual.
There is no evidence from the great reading that "salat" is a ritual. So I don't think that anyone should believe that "salat" is some kind of mechanical ritual like sectarians believe. My position on the learning connection ("al-salat" can be found here
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/name.htm
Learning has a physical aspect. For example, you physically pick up a physical book and read it with your physical eyes to understand it. But the physical aspect is not the primary aspect. So if you read a book online it is OK. If a person listens to an audio recording of the book, it is still OK. Now if you tell people that they should take a book and kiss it three times and then put it on the table and spin seven times around it, otherwise their learning would be invalid, then the physical aspect becomes the most important and it becomes a mindless mechanical ritual.
Also, before I provide any evidence, are you suggesting that "Ad-Du'a" and "As-Salaat" are equivilant? Again I don't want to assume, so before I comment, I would like to know what your belief is. The rest of what I believe are errors, flaws in argument, or just wrong assumptions; I will save to comment on after you have responded to this post, insha Allah.
You are implying that "al-salat" and "al-du'a" are equivalent. I didn't propose that. You are saying that Al-salat = The Prayer. We know that Al-du'a = The Prayer too. So it is like saying a=c and we also know that b=c so you are implying that a=b or Al-salat=Al-du'a. You tried to circumvent this equivalency by making an argument based on the definite article, which as you saw was a fallacious argument.
We all know for certain that "al-salat"/"salat" doesn't mean "the prayer"/"prayer". Even you know that, unless you want to suggest that the god and his controllers pray on the prophet (3356) and on those who trust (3343). If so, then who do you think that the god needs to pray to!!!? and why does the god need to pray in the first place!!!? So despite everything you said, we all agree (one way or another) that "salat" doesn't mean prayer and that certainly it is not a ritual about putting the forehead on the floor a certain number of times. So you need to look for a different meaning. The correct meaning will be found by focusing on the purpose and effect of "salat" not on "the method". Everyone who focuses on the method is assuming a priori based on preconceptions that "salat" is a ritual. You cannot approach this subject with preconceptions. You have to make a clean start.
Peace,
Ayman
-
peace
good post ayman. never thought of it like that.
we were also told we can pray while walking or riding horses. so i guess the physical may not be that important but the words are and honesty and sincerity.
but i still like doing the physical prayer, i feel it adds to the glorifying.
someone here once gave a good example, it's like when you tell your wife you love her but you also (physically) kiss her. -
As-Salaamu Alaikum ayman and all,
I pray that everyone is doing well, insha Allah. I have been spending a lot of time getting caught up on a lot of the articles on the forum. Even though I have been aware of this site for more than a couple of years, and I just recently started to post here; previoulsy I mostly just read the articles on here and haven't been following the posts here over the years. So there is quit a bit of material here to try to catch up on dealing only with the issue of As-Salaat; let alone all the other important posts here.
It is interesting to see the evolution one way or the other of topics and people on here. A lot of time I see the elements and knowledge of debate techniques being used here as evidence instead of real evidence itself. These are just some of my observations that I wanted to point out.
I can't post the rest of the book dealing with As-Salaat as of yet because I lost my hard-drive and the back up version is quite a bit old. I hadn't backed it up in over 3 months, so there was quite a bit of material that I had that was lost and that I am still trying to have someone to recover, Allah willing. In the meantime, I will take what I have and began to redo those sections and post them as soon as I finish each section, Allah willing.
Now to ayman's post
Peace IQO,
First, "salat", like everything else we do has a physical aspect. For example, giving charity has a physical aspect. However, if someone says you have to put your right hand in your left pocket and give to the poor person and then put your forehead on the floor three times, otherwise your charity is not valid, then the physical method becomes the primary aspect and this becomes a mindless mechanical ritual.
Peace again ayman bro,
We are in agreement that As-Salaat has a physical aspect to it, as well as Az-Zakaat. I have not said in any of my articles that if you don't do As-Salaat exactly like I say, then your "Salaat" is not valid. As a matter of fact, if you look at the table of contents that I posted of the book, I have an entire section that deals with why Allah says that He does not accept As-Salaat. I will post that soon, insha Allah.
Similar to you, I believe that the physical aspect of As-Salaat is not the most important; but rather it is the spiritual and mental part of it that is. Nevertheless, as I have stated in another post, I believe that Allah has enjoinded on us "rituals" as described by Him in Al-Quran, because a "ritual" perserves knowledge. You can contemplate and probably come up with many ways that a "ritual" does this as an assitance to the mental and spiritual aspect.
There is no evidence from the great reading that "salat" is a ritual. So I don't think that anyone should believe that "salat" is some kind of mechanical ritual like sectarians believe. My position on the learning connection ("al-salat" can be found here
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/name.htm
This I firmly disagree with your opinion on. There is a tremendous amount of evidence that As-Salaat is a ritual. Equating every belief that you don't believe in to sectarians is no way to prove of it being a false belief. The physical aspects of washing, standing, reciting, bowing, prostrating, etc. are all mechanical; and that doesn't diminish their mental and spiritual higher purposes for being in existence as instructions by Allah.
I have read your article, and don't find it convincing. I will not spend a lot of time to rebute all of the points that can be rebuted, as I feel that is not necessary since I am not trying to win you over to my understanding. You seem intelligent enough and seem to study Al Quran, so whatever conclusions you have come to is where Allah has permitted and accepted you to be at this time. I am sure that you feel the same way about my understandings. Therefore that is not meant to be any type of insult, small or large. The way I see it, you have taken HUGE leaps to come to the conclusion that As-Salaat means "learning connection". I think it is a huge leap in "definition", not because the principal is not there. I definitely believe that As Salaat is a way for us to learn and a way for us to connect to Allah through the guidance that He has given us. Nevertheless, this is done by the ritual that He has instructed us to perform, and any other way that He has described for us in Al Quran. I certainly believe that As Salaat is not the only way in Al Quran that Allah has ordered us to "learn" and "connect" from or with Him.
Learning has a physical aspect. For example, you physically pick up a physical book and read it with your physical eyes to understand it. But the physical aspect is not the primary aspect. So if you read a book online it is OK. If a person listens to an audio recording of the book, it is still OK. Now if you tell people that they should take a book and kiss it three times and then put it on the table and spin seven times around it, otherwise their learning would be invalid, then the physical aspect becomes the most important and it becomes a mindless mechanical ritual.
Equating the instructions that we discuss here from Quran only to traditional or sunni practices that are not found in Al Quran is not a way to prove that rituals are not in Al Quran. If Allah wanted to tell us only to read and study Al Quran at Fajr and Isha, we would not need all the other ayat that deal with the "physical" aspect of it. Washing is not important to learning or a connection, yet we are told to do so before approaching As-Salaat. This is only a ritual that has physical and spiritual implications for us to learn about life and ourselves. Your definitions of the other parts of the ritual, may have some valid points, but they do not negate the physical funtions of these definitions as well. If Allah gives a ritual to perform, it is to perserve some aspect of the wisdom behind it. If you dont do it, you are disobeying Allah and it doesn't matter if it is the most important part or not; for even if it is the least important part, you are still disobeying. A ritual is also a reminder, to remind us of the higher purpose. If people become mindless in their rituals, perhaps by continously performing them, they may be reminded, insha Allah.
You are implying that "al-salat" and "al-du'a" are equivalent. I didn't propose that. You are saying that Al-salat = The Prayer. We know that Al-du'a = The Prayer too. So it is like saying a=c and we also know that b=c so you are implying that a=b or Al-salat=Al-du'a. You tried to circumvent this equivalency by making an argument based on the definite article, which as you saw was a fallacious argument.
Please don't put words into my "mouth", so to speak. It is clear to everyone who has read this that I don't believe As-Salaat and Al-Dua are equivalent. Just because we use the english word "prayer" to denote them, doesn't mean that they are the same. That is why in translating, to distinguish the difference, "The Prayer" is used to denote the specific functions ritual prescribed and described by Allah, and the other is simply translated as "prayer". We could have called them "The Ritual" (As-Salaat) and "The Calling"(Ad-Dua), but that doesn't express best in english how we convey the message of the idea that we are expressing. It seems that you are suggesting that there can only be one kind of "prayer". Let us not use logical fallacies such as a=b=c analogies to confused the clearly intended representations made by each other. We can all pick on semantics to find logical fallacies in written words, but that destroys the purpose and point of the discussion. I am not trying to prove my 100% infallible english grammar in my posts. I am trying to convey a message. If it is unclear, that is one thing. If you or anyone attempt to make it unclear by pointing out semantic deviations that are unimportant and clearly against the intent, then that serves no purpose for betterment. So I definitely don't see or agree that the argument is fallacious.
We all know for certain that "al-salat"/"salat" doesn't mean "the prayer"/"prayer". Even you know that, unless you want to suggest that the god and his controllers pray on the prophet (3356) and on those who trust (3343). If so, then who do you think that the god needs to pray to!!!? and why does the god need to pray in the first place!!!? So despite everything you said, we all agree (one way or another) that "salat" doesn't mean prayer and that certainly it is not a ritual about putting the forehead on the floor a certain number of times. So you need to look for a different meaning. The correct meaning will be found by focusing on the purpose and effect of "salat" not on "the method". Everyone who focuses on the method is assuming a priori based on preconceptions that "salat" is a ritual. You cannot approach this subject with preconceptions. You have to make a clean start.
Peace,
Ayman
Please don't speak for me and what I know. I do firmly belief that As-Salaat is best translated as "The Prayer". I understand what this means to me and believe that most people will understand this as well, including traditional muslims. What we differ on, traditionalists and myself, is how it is performed and where those functions are to be derived from. Therefore it appears on this issue, they are closer to me in my beliefs than you are if you perform not physical As-Salaat as described by Al Quran in my understanding of the subject. I could break that down, but I don't want it to be taken the wrong way, so I will leave it as what I said.
Also, 3343 and 3356 are not "As-Salaat". You can not group all the forms of a root word and try to make them mean all the same things. That would destroy the arabic language and take away is vibrant and expressive colors. You have to give weight to how Allah has chosen to vary the forms of grammar of the roots to express the different meanings intended. Confusing those who have not command of the arabic language by always pointing out that "salaat" can not equal prayer, is dishonest to the form of the root used. No word in Al Quran keeps the exact same meaning for all the different forms that the root is used in.
So you are wrong. We don't all agree with you that As-Salaat doesn't equal "The Prayer". I could be wrong, but I still believe that most on this forum believe that As-Salaat is "The Prayer". 15 or 20 of frequent posters does not set the standard for what most of the members believe. So no, I don't believe that Allah prays nor prays on anyone, nor does anything or anyone that isn't commiting shirk. All that perform As-Salaat that is accepted by Allah, are doing so only as is commanded by Allah. Obviously from Al Quran, how that is done can vary to a degree.
If you don't feel the necessity to prostrate yourself to the ground and bow in humbleness before Allah, then I can not help you with that. The advice is already in Al Quran about those who don't feel the need to do so. I am sure you have read it, but for whatever reason, Allah did not see fit for us to understand it the same way. I do not feel the need to search for a different meaning of As-Salaat because I understand that it is physical, mental and spiritual. I only feel the need to continue to gain and increase my knowledge and understanding of its function and benefits, Allah willing.
You act as if the only way the idea of physical As Salaat has come into anyone's mind is through preconceived notions from sectarians belief systems. I submit to you that my faith in this aspect of As Salaat is based strictly from Al Quran only, and that maybe your obsession with finding or proving that it has no physical aspect to it is in reaction to your aversion to sectarian perversion of the truth and how it has affected you in your past life. Allahu Alim.
As-Salaamu Alaikum, peace
-
Peace IQO,
We are in agreement that As-Salaat has a physical aspect to it, as well as Az-Zakaat. I have not said in any of my articles that if you don't do As-Salaat exactly like I say, then your "Salaat" is not valid. As a matter of fact, if you look at the table of contents that I posted of the book, I have an entire section that deals with why Allah says that He does not accept As-Salaat. I will post that soon, insha Allah.
What is there to accept or reject about "salat"? Is there any passage in the great reading that says that the god doesn't accept "salat"? The learning connection/"salat" is for our own benefit it is not somekind of ritual to get bonus points. You can sometimes learn a little or learn a lot. The key is to persist in learning and not be satisfied with mechnically following mindless rituals.
Similar to you, I believe that the physical aspect of As-Salaat is not the most important; but rather it is the spiritual and mental part of it that is. Nevertheless, as I have stated in another post, I believe that Allah has enjoinded on us "rituals" as described by Him in Al-Quran, because a "ritual" perserves knowledge. You can contemplate and probably come up with many ways that a "ritual" does this as an assitance to the mental and spiritual aspect.
A ritual makes something mechanical. By making it mechanical, the physical part becomes the most important part.
This I firmly disagree with your opinion on. There is a tremendous amount of evidence that As-Salaat is a ritual.
A ritual has a systematic mechnical method. If "salat" was a ritual for which there is a tremendous amount of evidence then you wouldn't have had to write a book trying to figure out the steps and put them as Step 1, Step 2, Step 3, Step 4, Step 5. Do you think that the god is not as organized as you and can't list such supposed ritual steps in an orderly fashion like you? I think that you need to make a clean start with a more humble attitude. Do not think for even one second that you can clarify the god's book.
If there was a tremendous amount of evidence for somekind of tritual then people wouldn't be struggling with this issue. On the other hand, the reason why people have been struggling with this issue is that they have a preconception that it is a ritual and therefore they are working backwards to find the method in order to justify their preconception.
If there was a tremendous amount of evidence then why are you basing your entire thesis on the false rule that you invented which claims that the definite article "al" completely changes the meaning of a word?
Equating every belief that you don't believe in to sectarians is no way to prove of it being a false belief. The physical aspects of washing, standing, reciting, bowing, prostrating, etc. are all mechanical; and that doesn't diminish their mental and spiritual higher purposes for being in existence as instructions by Allah.
If you are satisfied with mechanical rituals then good for you, you can just mechanically do those things a thousand times. There are many people who do those things five times or more per day and yet they are misguided and those mechnical acts do not help them one bit.
I have read your article, and don't find it convincing. I will not spend a lot of time to rebute all of the points that can be rebuted, as I feel that is not necessary since I am not trying to win you over to my understanding. You seem intelligent enough and seem to study Al Quran, so whatever conclusions you have come to is where Allah has permitted and accepted you to be at this time. I am sure that you feel the same way about my understandings. Therefore that is not meant to be any type of insult, small or large. The way I see it, you have taken HUGE leaps to come to the conclusion that As-Salaat means "learning connection". I think it is a huge leap in "definition", not because the principal is not there. I definitely believe that As Salaat is a way for us to learn and a way for us to connect to Allah through the guidance that He has given us. Nevertheless, this is done by the ritual that He has instructed us to perform, and any other way that He has described for us in Al Quran. I certainly believe that As Salaat is not the only way in Al Quran that Allah has ordered us to "learn" and "connect" from or with Him.
What other way is there?
Equating the instructions that we discuss here from Quran only to traditional or sunni practices that are not found in Al Quran is not a way to prove that rituals are not in Al Quran. If Allah wanted to tell us only to read and study Al Quran at Fajr and Isha, we would not need all the other ayat that deal with the "physical" aspect of it. Washing is not important to learning or a connection, yet we are told to do so before approaching As-Salaat.
Washing first thing in the morning when you wake up and when you end your day is important and it does help clear the mind. I don't know about you, but when I wake up in the morning and come back from work in the evening, unless I wash, I cannot function, let alone learn.
This is why washing in the morning when they wake up and in the evening when they get back home is what most people naturally do.
This is only a ritual that has physical and spiritual implications for us to learn about life and ourselves. Your definitions of the other parts of the ritual, may have some valid points, but they do not negate the physical funtions of these definitions as well. If Allah gives a ritual to perform, it is to perserve some aspect of the wisdom behind it. If you dont do it, you are disobeying Allah and it doesn't matter if it is the most important part or not; for even if it is the least important part, you are still disobeying. A ritual is also a reminder, to remind us of the higher purpose. If people become mindless in their rituals, perhaps by continously performing them, they may be reminded, insha Allah.
Mechnical rituals are inherently mindless. They are certainly not reminders because the ritual inevitably becomes an end in itself and people are not focused on the purpose. They are focused on repeating things however many times their method tells them.
Please don't put words into my "mouth", so to speak. It is clear to everyone who has read this that I don't believe As-Salaat and Al-Dua are equivalent. Just because we use the english word "prayer" to denote them, doesn't mean that they are the same.
Then you have to use a different English word to denote "salat". Adding "The" and capitalizing the "P" doesn't accomplish anything other than demonstrate that you don't know the meaning of "salat" and thus are unable to translate it properly.
That is why in translating, to distinguish the difference, "The Prayer" is used to denote the specific functions ritual prescribed and described by Allah, and the other is simply translated as "prayer".
But the "prayer" in "the prayer" is exactly the same as "prayer". Adding the "the" makes it definite but doesn't change the meaning one bit. So you are basing your entire thesis on a false linguistic argument.
We could have called them "The Ritual" (As-Salaat) and "The Calling"(Ad-Dua), but that doesn't express best in english how we convey the message of the idea that we are expressing.
If you think that "The Ritual" fits better then use that. If you don't understand "salat" enough to be able to translate it and express it in English then you should refrain from making a conclusion until you can.
It seems that you are suggesting that there can only be one kind of "prayer". Let us not use logical fallacies such as a=b=c analogies to confused the clearly intended representations made by each other. We can all pick on semantics to find logical fallacies in written words, but that destroys the purpose and point of the discussion.
But superficial semantics is exactly what you have based your entire argument on. You have imagined a semantic difference between the "prayer" in "the prayer" and the "prayer" in "prayer" and have then proceeded to build your thesis on you invented semantic rules.
I am not trying to prove my 100% infallible english grammar in my posts. I am trying to convey a message. If it is unclear, that is one thing. If you or anyone attempt to make it unclear by pointing out semantic deviations that are unimportant and clearly against the intent, then that serves no purpose for betterment. So I definitely don't see or agree that the argument is fallacious.
Your message is not unclear. It is quite clear that you are saying that there is a difference in meaning between the word prayer when used in the definite and when it is used in the indefinite. This is clearly a fallacious argument in any language.
Please don't speak for me and what I know. I do firmly belief that As-Salaat is best translated as "The Prayer". I understand what this means to me and believe that most people will understand this as well, including traditional muslims.
No one here can go in your head, we can only judge the soundness of your argument by your words. If you really understood what it means, then you would have been able to translate it properly and not have had to rely on false linguistic arguments about the definite article.
What we differ on, traditionalists and myself, is how it is performed and where those functions are to be derived from. Therefore it appears on this issue, they are closer to me in my beliefs than you are if you perform not physical As-Salaat as described by Al Quran in my understanding of the subject. I could break that down, but I don't want it to be taken the wrong way, so I will leave it as what I said.
As I said all along, you and sectarians and everyone who is focused on the method will not reach any better understanding on the subject. The only way to reach a better understanding is to start from the purpose and the effect.
Also, 3343 and 3356 are not "As-Salaat". You can not group all the forms of a root word and try to ake them mean all the same things.
The form of "salat" in 3343 and 3356 is not a different "form" as you claim. If you know Arabic then you should know that is has the same weight ("wazn" and same exact form in 3343 as in 339 fo example. Are you implying that in 339 it doesn't mean "pray"? By trying to use the false argument of the defnite article again, you are demonstrating your ignorance of the fact that in this case we are talking about verbs and not nouns and the definite article doesn't apply to verbs. So how do you differentiate in the case of verbs? Of course you can't answer.
That would destroy the arabic language and take away is vibrant and expressive colors.
This sounds nice and fuzzy but has no substance.
You have to give weight to how Allah has chosen to vary the forms of grammar of the roots to express the different meanings intended. Confusing those who have not command of the arabic language by always pointing out that "salaat" can not equal prayer, is dishonest to the form of the root used. No word in Al Quran keeps the exact same meaning for all the different forms that the root is used in.
What are you talking about? If you don't know you should simply learn and research the subject before making such false statements with such proud tone. We are not talking about different forms. The same exact form and in fact the same exact word is used in 3343 and 339. Also, the same exact word (and of course same exact form) is used in 9103, 984 and 1082. Also, the present tense form of a past tense keep the same meaning. You can see this in 3356 and 4102 where the only difference is that in 4102 the verb is in the present tense.
So you are wrong. We don't all agree with you that As-Salaat doesn't equal "The Prayer".
No I am not wrong. You agreed above that "al-salat" doesn't equal "the prayer" in 3343 and 3356. Everyone agrees on that. You agree despite your best efforts to get out of the implication of such agreement by claiming that "they are different forms". Of course, in your haste, you forgot to check the other occurences of the same exact forms in the great reading. I advise you to use patience and the learning connection.
I could be wrong, but I still believe that most on this forum believe that As-Salaat is "The Prayer". 15 or 20 of frequent posters does not set the standard for what most of the members believe. So no, I don't believe that Allah prays nor prays on anyone, nor does anything or anyone that isn't commiting shirk. All that perform As-Salaat that is accepted by Allah, are doing so only as is commanded by Allah. Obviously from Al Quran, how that is done can vary to a degree.
Can anyone who believes that "al-salat" means "the prayer" according to 3343, 3356 and 9103 please speak up?
If you don't feel the necessity to prostrate yourself to the ground and bow in humbleness before Allah, then I can not help you with that.
People prostrate and disobey the god and they bow but are arrogant. The physical prostration doesn't magically change them into obedient servants of the god no more than physical bowing makes anyone truly humble.
The advice is already in Al Quran about those who don't feel the need to do so. I am sure you have read it, but for whatever reason, Allah did not see fit for us to understand it the same way. I do not feel the need to search for a different meaning of As-Salaat because I understand that it is physical, mental and spiritual. I only feel the need to continue to gain and increase my knowledge and understanding of its function and benefits, Allah willing.
If you think that it is physical then you should obey the god and prostrate according to what you believe is the physical prostration he told us about in 17107. You should physically prostrate to the chin and not to the forehead.
You act as if the only way the idea of physical As Salaat has come into anyone's mind is through preconceived notions from sectarians belief systems. I submit to you that my faith in this aspect of As Salaat is based strictly from Al Quran only, and that maybe your obsession with finding or proving that it has no physical aspect to it is in reaction to your aversion to sectarian perversion of the truth and how it has affected you in your past life.
I have no problem with physical prostration if you understand it this way. But then you have to obey the god as best as you can and prostrate to the chin and not to the forehead as per 17107. There is not a single passage in the great reading that tells us to prostrate to the forehead. Prostrating to the chin is not difficult. The difficulty is in doing it in a way that is different from preconceptions.
Peace,
Ayman
-
peace
you know what i find strange. that the both of you are muslim, both of you believe in one God, both of you ask for guidence, yet only one of you can be guided.
one of you can be right. so which one?
is imamquranonly guided and right or ayman?it's also strange that all other muslims, sunnis, wahabis... they also ask for guidence, yet they follow hadith or imams... more then qur'an and they don't do things according to qur'an, so did God guide them? because they did ask for guidence.
now, imamquranonly presented verses from quran how salat (prayer) is to be performed.
so, ayman, could you present verses from quran about how to perform salat that is different from the way iqo said?
since it doesn't mean prayer and if it's not something physical, what is it?
how to do it? -
Peace Nerspi,
I think you are misunderstanding what brother Ayman is saying. Every thing has mental and physical aspects. Brother Ayman can correct me if I am wrong but he is not denying the physical aspects of salaat; instead he is saying that the mental aspects are more important, thus salaat is PRIMARILY mental.
For example, I don't think he is denying a physical "sujud" to the chin during salaat, but he is saying that the mental aspect of "sujud" i.e. obedience to The God after learning from His signs during salaat is the more important aspect. Therefore, a physical "sujud" to the chin is not a "sujud" if it is not accompanied by obedience to The God. Furthermore, even though a physical sujud is not of primary importance, when it is performed it should be to the chin per al-qur'aan, and not upon the forehead as the sectarians do.
He is telling us that the PURPOSE and the EFFECT of salaat is of primary importance, and the physical aspects are of secondary importance. Hence one of the important things in salaat is remembrance of The God; the exact anatomical position in which The God is remembered does not matter, as long as the purpose of remembrance of The God is accomplished with the desired effect.
Another important thing is reading The God's signs with understanding for the purpose of learning from them and implementing The God's message in our life. The exact physical position in which one performs that reading is not as important, as long as we learn from The God's signs and then implement His message in our lives with the effect of making us pure, humble, and obedient to The God.
If one does not learn anything from one's salaat and does not become humble and obedient to The God and does not purify oneself as a result of salaat, then it will not be salaat even if all the physical aspects/rituals are performed with surgical accuracy. That is why The God does not describe the exact anatomical positions during salaat with precision, because they are not as important as the mental aspects.
Taking the analogy of one's wife that you provided, if one says that he loves his wife and then physically kisses her but does not really mean the words and that kiss fails to bring forth or bolster a loving relationship between them, then the kiss is not really a kiss, and he does not really love her !
