Muhammad Wrote the quran
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If the prophet did not know how to read and write, it would mean that he was unable to make sure that the quraan was written correctly, or to advise on how some words should be written. Take as an example the phrase "bism" in "bismillaahir-rahmaanir-raheem"", which is written with a different spelling elsewhere
As in "bismillaahi"
As as in "bismi rabbika"How would an illiterate know the difference? How would someone being dictated know that there should be a difference in writing the same word, according to context? Mind you, this is not a rule in Arabic. The way it is written in "bismillahi" is specific to the quraan.
If we believed that he did not write the quraan, it would mean that the quraan was full of mistakes. Is it what the hadith wants us to believe?
Traditionalists claim that after a scribe wrote the Qur'an down, the (illiterate) prophet would run his finger along the words and if there was a mistake his finger would stop and the mistake would be corrected.
sigh
The thing that makes me wonder about their logic is this
Some of them literally believe the Qur'an was the first thing written and compiled in Arabic, now if this was the case why was there an abundance of scribes living in what should have been a completely illiterate 7th Cent. Makkah? And why does the Qur'an talk about using scribes in certain legal rulings?
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nobody can prove who wrote it...
Of course nobody can
is that the important part? i thought the important part was who inspired it P
then tell those who argue that Mohammad wrote the Quran without any evidence they provided but conjectures
well if the root of quran has to do with reading, then it would thus imply that whoever it was being delivered to could at least read.
but reading is not writing, or are both the same?
thus such a person would not be completely illiterate,
there is no such thing called completely illiterate, it is either you are or not. on the other hand if you know how to read but you can not write then you are 100% illiterate
although this is no guarantee that they could write as well as read.
of course, the only gurantee that we read in a verse that Mohammad wrote it
it is taken for granted in our modern times that literacy means being able to both read and write.
exactly
it has not necessarily been so throughout every era of history.
In Arabic countries al least it has been forever
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Peace
It seems to me that the bearer of the quran possessed a level of literacy (that is for both reading and writing).
http//www.geocities.com/fingolfin_hk/illiteracy.html
Joe
Hello
It seems, or it is certain?
if it seems, then sorry what you say is nothing but conjectures
Salam
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Peace
It seems to me because no human is ever 100% certain of a thing in my opinion. So it seems, refers to MINE OWN awareness Ahmed. Perhaps being an Arab you cannot comprehend such a western disposition.
Joe
Hello
Well, we are not having a chat chat in here to kill the time, what we say about the religion will be held against all of us, the Quran told us not to follow MOST of conjectures, can you please convince me that what you say is one of those lil conjectures that we may follow
on the other hand is believing in who write the Quran a requirement to be a Muslim to Allah?
Salam
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Peace Ahmed
1- I never told you to follow what I believe to be the case here regarding the bearer of the message.
2- I am a fallible human and my views are more likely than not a mixture of rights and wrongs.
3- I think I am just as incapable of convincing you of anything as the envoy is in his efforts to convince those who do not want to be convinced.
4- If my work is conjecture than that is what it seems to you, to me it seems otherwise.
5- Yes, God is the author of the quran, but you may believe or not, if it seems right or wrong to you.
Joe
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I think if we can make a collaborative effort putting all the evidences together (unlike the Trads with their own conjectures) then insha Allah we will have a better picture than simply making out of the blue theories.
What we can do is something very few people (usually Secular Western Scholars of Islam and 7th Century Arabia) have done and look at the environment, circumstances and other factors Muhammad lived in to make an educated guess.
I am having a discussion with my freind who does not believe that Quran was written by Muhammad with his own hands.I already quoted him sura 25 verse 5 but still he insist on more evidence.Can any one help me find more verses from the quran or a suitable article which could help me in convincing my freind.
It seems all too often one Muslim will have the goal of finding that Muhammad was literate and simply twist or interperet the facts (or lack of them) to their beliefs, again another Muslim will have the goal of finding that Muhammad was illiterate and will do the same to support their views.
Our views on this issue may only be formed after a good look at facts available not ther other way round. So simply, I say - I don't know for sure whether he was illiterate or not, and until further compelling evidence to either realisation, if I am to be true to myself, my view/belief in this should not change.
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I believe this is an argument that just cannot be refuted. So logical...
Hello
Yeh yeh, let's see how logical that non sense is
so we have the Hadith of Bukhari telling us a story on how the prophet instructed his fellow to write the Quran in what order, this is hadith is rejected by you and Samia and by myself of course, why?, because it is nothing bbut conjectures
now we have another hadith, it is called the hadith of Samia
in the hadith of Samia, Samia told us that the prophet wrote Be Ism as Bism,
now this hadith of Samia must be rejected also because it is exactly like the hadith of bukhari, or Samnia hadith is more Sahih mister Arnie?
See, I got both of you red handed in a double faced act
Salam
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Peace Ahmed
Salam mate
1- I never told you to follow what I believe to be the case here regarding the bearer of the message.
did I say that?, on the other hand one of your main principals to reject the hadith that it is nothing but conjectures by the Sunni, can't you see that your fellow Quran Aloners are doing the eact same?
2- I am a fallible human and my views are more likely than not a mixture of rights and wrongs.
well, then the same goes to the hadith advocates and every human on earth, i.e. we are dividning the religion and following our own low desires, that is no no in the Quran btw
3- I think I am just as incapable of convincing you of anything as the envoy is in his efforts to convince those who do not want to be convinced.
well, anyone wants to convince others with anything that is related to islam, must bring their evidences from the Quran if they are truthful, that is the heart and soul of the Quran alone movement, right?
if you failed to convince me then you failed to provide comelling evidences from the Quran, as simple as this
4- If my work is conjecture than that is what it seems to you, to me it seems otherwise.
of course it is, now I ask you again, SHOW ME A VERSE IN THE QURAN THAT TELLS US CONCLUSIVLY THAT MOHAMMAD KNEW HOW TO WRITE.
5- Yes, God is the author of the quran, but you may believe or not, if it seems right or wrong to you.
Joe
Oh, please donlt manipulate my question, I mean to believe that a human like mohammad wrioite the Quran,
my question still stands, here it is reohrased
is it a requirement to believe which human documented the Quran to be 100% Muslim to Allah?
Salam
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now we have another hadith, it is called the hadith of Samia
in the hadith of Samia, Samia told us that the prophet wrote Be Ism as Bism,
I don't get it really? She posted about what she thought, just as you post about what you think. If you have a problem with what she's posted shouldn't you refute it according to what she actually said rather than she posted "x" and just on that basis alone it's a hadith and not worth it? Explain please.
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I don't get it really? She posted about what she thought, just as you post about what you think. If you have a problem with what she's posted shouldn't you refute it according to what she actually said rather than she posted "x" and just on that basis alone it's a hadith and not worth it? Explain please.
well, it seems you missed out what I wrote
please read again and you will see that I stand for " NO ONE CAN KNOW IF MOHAMMAD KNEW HOW TO WRITE ON NOT"
when you refute that I will look at your other queries in the above comment
Thanks
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Peace Ahmed
did I say that?
I'm referring to this statement of yours where you say, "can you please convince me that what you say is one of those lil conjectures that we may follow" .
one of your main principals to reject the hadith that it is nothing but conjectures by the Sunni
No not at all. I believe there are ahadeeth which can be followed in Sunni literature if it does not deviate from matters of the quran. A conjecture is a lie and I do not think all ahadeeth in their literature is a lie, but how they were derived may be a lie.
can't you see that your fellow Quran Aloners are doing the eact same?
I suppose so. I'm not sure if this is a primary matter or if it even fits in to why someone would not adhere to sunni ahadeeth literature.
then the same goes to the hadith advocates and every human on earth
My sentiments as well.
anyone wants to convince others with anything that is related to islam, must bring their evidences from the Quran if they are truthful, that is the heart and soul of the Quran alone movement, right?
I do not think the goal is to convince anyone. I'll point out the way, you are the one who must get off your butt to follow it through and become familiar with it.
you failed to convince me then you failed to provide comelling evidences from the Quran
Not necessarily. It may simply mean that you reject certain things from the quran. I'm not in the business of convincing anyone of anything.
SHOW ME A VERSE IN THE QURAN THAT TELLS US CONCLUSIVLY THAT MOHAMMAD KNEW HOW TO WRITE
The article I provided the link to shows me convincingly that the bearer of the message was a literate person to some degree. It is my understanding of the matter. If you reject that than I'm not going to try and convince you when you do not want to be convinced.
is it a requirement to believe which human documented the Quran to be 100% Muslim to Allah?
Muslimeen who are not in a condition of faith do not need to believe in the quran or adhere to it's laws in my opinion.
Joe
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well, it seems you missed out what I wrote
please read again and you will see that I stand for " NO ONE CAN KNOW IF MOHAMMAD KNEW HOW TO WRITE ON NOT"
when you refute that I will look at your other queries in the above comment
Thanks
Let's start with a premise that we don't know but we are trying to piece things together and come to what may be more valid given the evidence. If someone writes what they think might have happened, it's best to refute that on what is actually written rather than just the fact that they had the temerity to write it, right? I don't need to refute what you stand for to make this comment btw, it's up to you to address it or not. No matter. Thanks.
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well, it seems you missed out what I wrote
please read again and you will see that I stand for " NO ONE CAN KNOW IF MOHAMMAD KNEW HOW TO WRITE ON NOT"
when you refute that I will look at your other queries in the above comment
Thanks
JK- We can infer from the following Quranic verse tht Muhammad knew how to write
They also said, "Tales from the past that he wrote down; they were dictated to him day and night."
GOD Bless! -
I don't think the actual Arabic verse says that, doesn't it say something along the lines of 'tales of the ancients he dictated'? I.e. that he had wrote down.
I'll get the verse...
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{4}
And those who disbelieve say This is nothing but a lie which he has forged, and other people have helped him at it; so indeed they have done injustice and (uttered) a falsehood.
But the misbelievers say "Naught is this but a lie which he has forged, and others have helped him at it." In truth it is they who have put forward an iniquity and a falsehood.
Those who disbelieve say This is naught but a lie that he hath invented, and other folk have helped him with it, so that they have produced a slander and a lie.{5}
And they say The stories of the ancients-- he has got them written-- so these are read out to him morning and evening.
And they say "Tales of the ancients, which he has caused to be written and they are dictated before him morning and evening."
And they say Fables of the men of old which he hath had written down so that they are dictated to him morn and evening. -
Peace all,
2948 is also proof that the Prophet learned how to write after the start of revelation
2948 You were not reciting any scripture before this (qablihi), nor were you writing one down by your hand. In that case, the doubters would have had reason.
The word "qablihi" in this verse is significant which means "before this revelation came." Thus al-qur'aan has put the record straight that the Prophet could read and write after the start of revelation.
Sectarians may be surprised to find out that the hadeeth collected by their beloved idol Bukhari contains proof that Muhammad could write ! wow
Here is the narration...
Volume 3, Book 49, Number 863
Narrated Al-Bara"When the Prophet intended to perform 'Umra in the month of Dhul-Qada, the people of Mecca did not let him enter Mecca till he settled the matter with them by promising to stay in it for three days only. When the document of treaty was written, the following was mentioned 'These are the terms on which Muhammad, Allah's Apostle agreed (to make peace).' They said, "We will not agree to this, for if we believed that you are Allah's Apostle we would not prevent you, but you are Muhammad bin 'Abdullah." The Prophet said, "I am Allah's Apostle and also Muhammad bin 'Abdullah." Then he said to 'Ali, "Rub off (the words) 'Allah's Apostle' ", but 'Ali said, "No, by Allah, I will never rub off your name." So, Allah's Apostle took the document and wrote, 'This is what Muhammad bin 'Abdullah has agreed upon No arms will be brought into Mecca except in their cases, and nobody from the people of Mecca will be allowed to go with him (i.e. the Prophet ) even if he wished to follow him and he (the Prophet ) will not prevent any of his companions from staying in Mecca if the latter wants to stay.' When the Prophet entered Mecca and the time limit passed, the Meccans went to 'Ali and said, "Tell your Friend (i.e. the Prophet ) to go out, as the period (agreed to) has passed." So, the Prophet went out of Mecca. The daughter of Hamza ran after them (i.e. the Prophet and his companions), calling, "O Uncle! O Uncle!" 'Ali received her and led her by the hand and said to Fatima, "Take your uncle's daughter." Zaid and Ja'far quarrel ed about her. 'Ali said, "I have more right to her as she is my uncle's daughter." Ja'far said, "She is my uncle's daughter, and her aunt is my wife." Zaid said, "She is my brother's daughter." The Prophet judged that she should be given to her aunt, and said that the aunt was like the mother. He then said to 'All, "You are from me and I am from you", and said to Ja'far, "You resemble me both in character and appearance", and said to Zaid, "You are our brother (in faith) and our freed slave.""
The ability of the Prophet to write in the above quoted "hadeeth" is confirmed by 255 and 2948.
In 255, the rejecters' false accusation about the Prophet is that al-qur'aan is just tales of the ancients that he wrote after being dictated to him by other people and that false accusation could have been made only if the Prophet knew how to write.
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Peace Ahmed
Salam mate
I'm referring to this statement of yours where you say, "can you please convince me that what you say is one of those lil conjectures that we may follow" .
well, sort of I waqs seeking advice, it seems you don?t want to provide the advice, that is fine with me
No not at all. I believe there are ahadeeth which can be followed in Sunni literature if it does not deviate from matters of the quran.
It seems you misunderstood my question, I?m not talking what the sunni do, I?m talking about the Quran alone members, do you follow those hadith affirmed by the sunni which does not contradict the Quran or the Arabic language in any way?
A conjecture is a lie
That is not an accurate statement
A conjecture maybe a lie and maybe truthful, do you agree?
and I do not think all ahadeeth in their literature is a lie,
But they stay conjectures even if we found out on the JD that it was not a lie, right?
but how they were derived may be a lie.
Not sure what you mean by that?, if any part of the process is a lie and you can?t know which part then it safe to assume that the whole thing is a lie, do you agree?
I suppose so. I'm not sure if this is a primary matter or if it even fits in to why someone would not adhere to sunni ahadeeth literature.
ok
I do not think the goal is to convince anyone. I'll point out the way, you are the one who must get off your butt to follow it through and become familiar with it.
get off my butt and be familiar with what exactly?
The repititve non sense that many people are associating to the Quran and its language?
Not necessarily. It may simply mean that you reject certain things from the quran.
hmmm, this will make me to accuse you safely of being a liar, provide your evidence if you are truthful?
Yeh yeh, that is right, it is me who reject the angels, the jinn, Jahannam and Hell as physical entities, what a load of non sense you just spat out
I'm not in the business of convincing anyone of anything.
sure, but we in the business to refute each other arguments, right?
The article I provided the link to shows me convincingly that the bearer of the message was a literate person to some degree.
hmmm, your use of the words ?to some degree? is really shaky
now let?s get to the real Question
DID MOHAMAD WRITE THE QURAN IN FULL WITH HIS OWN HANDS?
Please give me definite answer
- Yes
- No
- We Don?t know
Thanks
It is my understanding of the matter. If you reject that than I'm not going to try and convince you when you do not want to be convinced.
my right then to expose that what you say is nothing but conjectures
Muslimeen who are not in a condition of faith do not need to believe in the quran or adhere to it's laws in my opinion.
Joe
what is that Muslimoon who are not in a condition of faith?
And your conjecture that they don?t need to believe in the Quran or to its laws, is that before ort after the revelation of the Quran?
Thanks
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Peace all,
2948 is also proof that the Prophet learned how to write after the start of revelation
2948 You were not reciting any scripture before this (qablihi), nor were you writing one down by your hand. In that case, the doubters would have had reason.
The word "qablihi" in this verse is significant which means "before this revelation came." Thus al-qur'aan has put the record straight that the Prophet could read and write after the start of revelation.
Sectarians may be surprised to find out that the hadeeth collected by their beloved idol Bukhari contains proof that Muhammad could write ! o wow
Here is the narration...
Volume 3, Book 49, Number 863
Narrated Al-Bara"When the Prophet intended to perform 'Umra in the month of Dhul-Qada, the people of Mecca did not let him enter Mecca till he settled the matter with them by promising to stay in it for three days only. When the document of treaty was written, the following was mentioned 'These are the terms on which Muhammad, Allah's Apostle agreed (to make peace).' They said, "We will not agree to this, for if we believed that you are Allah's Apostle we would not prevent you, but you are Muhammad bin 'Abdullah." The Prophet said, "I am Allah's Apostle and also Muhammad bin 'Abdullah." Then he said to 'Ali, "Rub off (the words) 'Allah's Apostle' ", but 'Ali said, "No, by Allah, I will never rub off your name." So, Allah's Apostle took the document and wrote, 'This is what Muhammad bin 'Abdullah has agreed upon No arms will be brought into Mecca except in their cases, and nobody from the people of Mecca will be allowed to go with him (i.e. the Prophet ) even if he wished to follow him and he (the Prophet ) will not prevent any of his companions from staying in Mecca if the latter wants to stay.' When the Prophet entered Mecca and the time limit passed, the Meccans went to 'Ali and said, "Tell your Friend (i.e. the Prophet ) to go out, as the period (agreed to) has passed." So, the Prophet went out of Mecca. The daughter of Hamza ran after them (i.e. the Prophet and his companions), calling, "O Uncle! O Uncle!" 'Ali received her and led her by the hand and said to Fatima, "Take your uncle's daughter." Zaid and Ja'far quarrel ed about her. 'Ali said, "I have more right to her as she is my uncle's daughter." Ja'far said, "She is my uncle's daughter, and her aunt is my wife." Zaid said, "She is my brother's daughter." The Prophet judged that she should be given to her aunt, and said that the aunt was like the mother. He then said to 'All, "You are from me and I am from you", and said to Ja'far, "You resemble me both in character and appearance", and said to Zaid, "You are our brother (in faith) and our freed slave.""
The ability of the Prophet to write in the above quoted "hadeeth" is confirmed by 255 and 2948.
In 255, the rejecters' false accusation about the Prophet is that al-qur'aan is just tales of the ancients that he wrote after being dictated to him by other people and that false accusation could have been made only if the Prophet knew how to write.
Well well, look's like there may be more information at hand than thought, hadith never ceases to amaze me...