Muhammad Wrote the quran
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peace all
Zen, I didn't mean to say that "I am God," but I understand. I try to pick the language that I think will best convey the point I'm trying to make (it doesn't work out very well sometimes). But I will try to be more respectful to others' sensibilities.
Khalil, thanks.
nerspi, you wrote (or typed)
if another revelation comes to some 21st century messenger then it would be a good idea if he filmed it.
and why isn't there a 21 century messenger? and why does God's message have to be revealed in episodes?
well God can do more then send a message in a time where the only way to preserve the message was by writing it down on paper.
i don't know why He didn't, do we even have to know? we can still follow the qur'an today.
i still don't know what you want, lobster. a new book? an update? do you want God to appear to all humans? what?
Is "i don't know" a good enough answer? why don't we know? Why are we making God do all these illogical things that even we wouldn't do?
Al Quraishi,
Could you please enlighten us to what exactly 'TODAY'S language' is?
I'm pretty sure no one speaks the language of the quran anymore. We have to rely on dictionaries to know the meanings of words. And those of us who don't have the means to understand the language fully, are pretty much left in the dark.
The Qur'an is certainly not 'torture to understand' and no, you will never know better than God.
Going by the US government's definition of torture, nothing is.
I'm sure you agree it's not easy to understand what exactly the quran is saying sometimes. And a lot of commands and punishments etc don't make sense. And there are so many different ways you can look at it, and even make it say what you want it to say (like any other book).
Yeah, I don't know better than God, unless God is doing what you are saying he is doing. Then...I'm not too sure.
My argument isn't that I am God, or that God is stupid, or that God doesn't exist. It's not that the Quran is a piece of horse manure. I'm saying that we need to revise our view of the quran. We need to revise our understanding of what it actually is. -
Hello all,
Phonix asked me some silly questions as follow
- Why did Allah choose to deliver His almighty words by writing a book?
- A book!?, Why?
- Why a book? (See, he is repeating his bloody question, total waste of my time of you ask me)
- and why arabic?
- why did God preserve the quran and not the other scriptures that were supposedly revealed before it? (this is a common question on the kafirs web site FFI)
Brother Quraishi was kind enough to reply to his silly questions, his answers to all the above was simply ? God is the most wise, he knows that which we do not know.?
I admit I?m not as kind as brother Quraishi, however somehow my answers were sort of like what brother Quraishi stated ;? because Allah wants so?
Mister time waster phonix who likes calling himself ?Allah? replied to my answers as follow
Phonix said to Ahmed
?that too is an excuse to believe whatever you want. If you don't have an answer, just say that you don't. Don't give me this bull crap about what God wants and what God doesn't want.
See ;? Don't give me this bull crap about what God wants and what God doesn't want.?
In effect, what brother Quraishi and me said is BULL CRAP, sounds like BULL SHIT , but hey, possibly under FM rules, BULL CRAP is politically correct and bloody acceptable
I replied to brother Quraishi after reading his reply and said the following
Ahmed said to Quraishi
See bro
Phonix is clear cut ignorant and only talks crap
Now, young gun and FM moderator Nadeem, didn?t like my reply , possibly it was not politically correct under FM rules or something, this is what Nadeem said to me
Please refrain from such disrespect.
Peace,
Nadeem
Ahmed says
Mister Nadeem, it seems that you have jumped the barrel of your gun, there is nothing disrespectful in my comment, let me analyse it with you slowly possibly you may get it
I?m sure the suspected contexts in my comment are only the following
- he is ignorant
- he talks crap
Firstly I have to eliminate (he is ignorant) because someone like him with the ideas and non sense he promotes about Allah, the Quran and Mohammad must be 500% ignorant, being an ignorant of God is no shame really, the shame that someone who is a clear cut ignorant portrays himself/herself as knowledgeable who even knows better than Allah.
Secondly I have to also eliminate (he talks crap) this is because he said the same to me just before I said that to Qurashi, did you see it or that was part of your bias? If it is part of your bias then I excuse you.
Here is what he said again so you know well that you jumped you gun barrel
See ;? Don't give me this bull crap about what God wants and what God doesn't want.?
Hmmm, mister Nadeem, what do you think?, sounds like there was nothing wrong in my comment
Can I ask you please, why it seems to me that you abuse your power that was given to you on FM?
Please answer the above along with my other questions that I asked you earlier, you can simply dismiss me and not answer which is fine with me, this is better for me because there is no honour to know those who act the way you acted
Let me now prove his clear cut ignorance in not knowing that Allah does what He wants when He wants while no one can question Him. The answer that ignorant phonix described as bull crap
In the following verse, Allah is telling us the He made some messengers to excel over others, then Allah told us that if He desired we would not be fighting against each other now days regarding religion, HOWEVER HE DOES WHAT HE WANTS
Of those messengers, some of whom We have caused to excel others, and of whom there are some unto whom Allah spake, while some of them He exalted (above others) in degree; and We gave Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty) and We supported him with the holy Spirit. And if Allah had so wiled it, those who followed after them would not have fought one with another after the clear proofs had come unto them. But they differed, some of them believing and some disbelieving. And if Allah had so willed it, they would not have fought one with another; but Allah doeth what He will.
(253)
-> See, ? And if Allah had so willed it, they would not have fought one with another; but Allah doeth what He will.?
In the following verse, we see a strange rule forced on us, the rule is while we are hurum (doing hajj) we are not allowed to hunt, WHY?, because Allah make the rules the way He wills
O ye who believe! Fulfil your indentures. The beast of cattle is made lawful unto you (for food) except that which is announced unto you (herein), game being unlawful when ye are on the pilgrimage. Lo! Allah ordaineth that which pleaseth Him.
(1)
-. See, ? being unlawful when ye are on the pilgrimage. Lo! Allah ordaineth that which pleaseth Him.?
In the next couple of verses we see that what phonix said regarding a better way of sending messages to humanity than the method Allah used is nothing but clear cut ignorance
49 And that you should judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires, and be cautious of them, lest they seduce you from part of what Allah has revealed to you; but if they turn back, then know that Allah desires to afflict them on account of some of their faults; and most surely many of the people are transgressors.
50 Is it then the judgment of (the times of) ignorance that they desire? And who is better than Allah to judge for a people who are sure?
(49)
(50)-> Firstly we read that those who hinder us from our great religion by promoting lies about it, were allowed to do so by Allah, He wants them to commit more sins? and do not follow their low desires, and be cautious of them, lest they seduce you from part of what Allah has revealed to you; but if they turn back, then know that Allah desires to afflict them on account of some of their faults;?, VERY CLEAR, again this is what Allah wants to do. He can stop them but He chose to allow them to do it.
-> In the following verse we read something that should exposes phonix ignorance big time ? Is it then the judgment of (the times of) ignorance that they desire? And who is better than Allah to judge for a people who are sure??, SEE, phonix is not happy with Allah judgment and actions that He chose to do, phonix thinks that he knows better than Allah, well you have to know that phonix who surely does not know Allah at all was exposed in this verse, see how it says ? ?, i.e. ? And who is better than Allah to judge for a people who are sure??, i.e. phonix is not sure about Allah, but you know well that he tells us he knows everything and even knows better than Allah.
In the next verse, we read that Allah gave the Kafiroon wealth and children to punish them with it, WHY?, again this is what Allah wants
Let not then their property and their children excite your admiration; Allah only wishes to chastise them with these in this world's life and (that) their souls may depart while they are unbelievers.
(55)
-> See, Let not then their property and their children excite your admiration; Allah only wishes to chastise them with these in this world's life?
In the next verse we read clearly that the losers will abide in hell unless Allah wants something else to happen, WHY? Again, this is what He wants
106 Those who are wretched shall be in the Fire There will be for them therein (nothing but) the heaving of sighs and sobs
107 Abiding therein so long as the heavens and the earth endure, except as your Lord please; surely your Lord is the mighty doer of what He intends.
(106)
(107)-> See, ? Abiding therein so long as the heavens and the earth endure, except as your Lord please;?, this is because ? surely your Lord is the mighty doer of what He intends.?
The above is confirmed again, the losers will abide in hell unless Allah wants otherwise
And on the day when He shall gather them all together O assembly of jinn! you took away a great part of mankind. And their friends from among the men shall say Our Lord! some of us profited by others and we have reached our appointed term which Thou didst appoint for us. He shall say The fire is your abode, to abide in it, except as Allah is pleased; surely your Lord is Wise, Knowing.
(12
-> See, ? He shall say The fire is your abode, to abide in it, except as Allah is pleased;?
As Allah desired that fire will be the punishment for the loser, He also desired to reward the winners with heavens beneath which rivers flows, WHY?. He does what wants
Surely Allah will cause those who believe and do good deeds to enter gardens beneath which rivers flow, surely Allah does what He pleases.
(14)
-> See, ? Surely Allah will cause those who believe and do good deeds to enter gardens beneath which rivers flow?, WHY?, well ? surely Allah does what He pleases.?
The winners also will abide in the heaven unless Allah wants otherwise
And as to those who are made happy, they shall be in the garden, abiding in it as long as the heavens and the earth endure, except as your Lord please; a gift which shall never be cut off.
(10
-> See, ? abiding in it as long as the heavens and the earth endure, except as your Lord please;?
In the next example, let?s read what Allah says about Himself, not what ignorant phonix and others says about Him
12 Surely the might of your Lord is great.
13 Surely He it is Who originates and reproduces,
14 And He is the Forgiving, the Loving,
15 Lord of the Throne of Glory,
16 Doer of what He will.(12)
(13)
(14)
(15)
(16)-> ? Surely the might of your Lord is great.?
-> ? Surely He it is Who originates and reproduces,?
-> ? And He is the Forgiving, the Loving,?
->? Lord of the Throne of Glory,?=> AND ? Doer of what He will.?
We have read above, that Allah does this and that, phonix wants to ask Him, Why He does this and that?, well here is a surprise to phonix
He cannot be questioned concerning what He does and they shall be questioned.
(23)
-> See, ? He cannot be questioned concerning what He does?
Let me repeat it to you phonix possibly you recognise how ignorant you are when it comes to God
2123 ? He cannot be questioned concerning what He does?
2123 ? He cannot be questioned concerning what He does?
2123 ? He cannot be questioned concerning what He does?
2123 ? He cannot be questioned concerning what He does?
2123 ? He cannot be questioned concerning what He does?
2123 ? He cannot be questioned concerning what He does?
2123 ? He cannot be questioned concerning what He does?
2123 ? He cannot be questioned concerning what He does?
2123 ? He cannot be questioned concerning what He does?
2123 ? He cannot be questioned concerning what He does?
2123 ? He cannot be questioned concerning what He does?
2123 ? He cannot be questioned concerning what He does?
2123 ? He cannot be questioned concerning what He does?Salam all
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Peace Ahmad,
I did not read the whole thread. I did not therefore choose to ignore something in order to sustain a bias against you. What I did read of the thread, included your remark. Which I found to be in contrast to good etiquette. So I let you know. It was also meant as a reminder for those who were equally deserving a remark.
Nadeem
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peace Ahmed
2123 ? He cannot be questioned concerning what He does?
2123 ? He cannot be questioned concerning what He does?
2123 ? He cannot be questioned concerning what He does?
2123 ? He cannot be questioned concerning what He does?
2123 ? He cannot be questioned concerning what He does?
2123 ? He cannot be questioned concerning what He does?
2123 ? He cannot be questioned concerning what He does?
2123 ? He cannot be questioned concerning what He does?
2123 ? He cannot be questioned concerning what He does?
2123 ? He cannot be questioned concerning what He does?
2123 ? He cannot be questioned concerning what He does?
2123 ? He cannot be questioned concerning what He does?
2123 ? He cannot be questioned concerning what He does?I never argued that we should question God, or that we should disobey God. I don't think anyone on this forum has aruged that. I am arguing that God didn't do what you think God did, or does.
Your single answer to my question has been "because God says so." That doesn't answer any of my questions. Next you'll be claiming that you are the son of God, and we'll ask you "why?" and you'll say "because God said so." I'm not saying you will do that, but do you see the problem with your answer? -
peace AB,Why did Allah choose to deliver His almighty words by writing a book? A book!? Why? I mean, there are so many other, better, cooler ways of revealing things, why a book? and why arabic? why did God preserve the quran and not the other scriptures that were supposedly revealed before it? Why don't we have any such scriptures from East Asia? or North America? I apologize for any offensive terms I may have used, so please answer my questions and don't "dismiss" me.
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yes?
http//free-islam.com/extraimages/dismissed.gif
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What kind of pointless debate is this???
Nuun, wal qalam-u wa maa yasturuun! Maaa anta bini'mati rabbika bi majnuun!!!
Why mention the inkpot and pen if the prophet could not write? Or is this an interactive dialogue while he wrote these words down on parchment himself?
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What kind of pointless debate is this???
Nuun, wal qalam-u wa maa yasturuun! Maaa anta bini'mati rabbika bi majnuun!!!
Why mention the inkpot and pen if the prophet could not write? Or is this an interactive dialogue while he wrote these words down on parchment himself?
hmmm, did the verse say the prophet wrote the Quran?
No it did not, the verse talks about the angels not Mohammad and not even the Quran that is been written
to be honest it is what you said that was pointless, can you see how pointless it was?
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Ahmad, this seems like an interactive process of revelation... if you don't agree, then you don't agree. It's simple
then tell yourself to agree to disagree and not call a 14 page serious debate as pointless
can you see where you got it wrong again?
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then tell yourself to agree to disagree and not call a 14 page serious debate as pointless
can you see where you got it wrong again?
Did I say the whole 14 page debate was pointless? I am talking about these recent posts... haven't you figured out that people (yourself included) are now agreeing to disagree?
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peace Ahmed,
I guess you are trying to show that I was questioning God in that post. I wasn't. Well, I was, but I was questioning YOUR concept of God.
I don't have a problem with what God says, but I'm asking, what is God actually saying?
If you don't want to discuss this, then fine by me. -
Peace all,
Part of the problem, perhaps, is that we have deviated the topic, the thread and even the section. It would be easier for everyone if these questions were adressed in the critical examination section maybe.
If anyone has further points of discussion, please continue... welcome
peace
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peace Ahmed,
Salam Waleed
I guess you are trying to show that I was questioning God in that post.
of course you are
I wasn't.
you must be confused then, or how aout NOT SURE?
Well, I was,
See, you are not sure
but I was questioning YOUR concept of God.
My concept of God !!., funny
Well, I have no concept of God other than what the God said about Himself in His Quran
Now the God said in His Quran, HE DOES WHAT HE WANTS AND HE CAN"T BE QUESTIONED
so my so called concept of God was 100% based on that, i.e. all the answers to you silly quesions are really one answer, THIS IS WHAT THE GOD WANTS AND THIS IS WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN REGARDLESS WE LIKE IT OR NOT
I don't have a problem with what God says,
hmmm, I told you, you must be confused
but I'm asking, what is God actually saying?
what the God is saying regarding His actions is crystal clear THIS IS WHAT THE GOD WANTS AND THIS IS WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN REGARDLESS WE LIKE IT OR NOT
If you don't want to discuss this, then fine by me.
well, I don't want to waste my time with those who are in doubt and are not sure, I would like to debate the firm believers regarding some issues in the Quran that they believe in, I consider you exactly as a member on FFI and I had enough of your non sense really
Cheers
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"my concept of god is correct and any concepts which deviate from mine are therefore incorrect"
"well i don't know if it's because god says so, but i think in this manner because i interpreted it that way so i said god says so"
questioning what people say about god is not the same as questioning god... and if we didn't question god where would we be anyways? as though god wishes servants to be stoic robots anyways.
at least lobster isn't blindly following conjectures... he is asking questions every step of the way along his path... i wonder if god will approve "someone told me god said so so i accepted it" over "i asked questions every step of the way and did what i felt was best at the time with the knowledge i had"
We already know what this quran is saying. It is only a reminder. God's book is this universe.
(italics mine)
if people are ignoring or misunderstanding or trashing you it's because you are either crazy or on the right track... pick one P
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"my concept of god is correct and any concepts which deviate from mine are therefore incorrect"
"well i don't know if it's because god says so, but i think in this manner because i interpreted it that way so i said god says so"
Right, first of all, Ahmed is using clear verses to answer Phoenix's questions; distorting what he's saying cannot prove what you're implying or defame him, using your little technique (far be it for me to put words into other peoples mouths but I've noticed you have no problem with that) Ahmed is simply saying 'My concept of God is what he clearly states in the Qur'an'.
at least lobster isn't blindly following conjectures...
Are you implying that Ahmed is following conjectures? Because all I've ever seen him using are verses from the Qur'an, is that what value you place on them?
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peace
2140 "Do you claim that Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and their descendants were
Jews' orChristians'?" Say "Do you know more than God does? And who could be more wicked than he who suppresses a testimony given to him by God? Yet God is not unmindful of what you do.This verse clearly says that the people who call themselves "Jews" and "Christians" are not the decendents of Abraham. What does this mean?
26197 Is it not evidence enough for them that learned men from among the children of Israel have recognized this ?
So, the children of isreal (whoever they are_ recognize God's true revelations. But they aren't the Jews? hmm...
675 And thus We gave Abraham insight into mighty dominion over the heavens and the earth - and to the end that he might become one of those who are inwardly sure.
673 And
He it is who has created the heavens and the earth in accordance with truth- and whenever He says, "Be," His word comes true; and His will be the dominion on the Day when the trumpet is blown. He knows all that is beyond the reach of a created being's perception, as well as all that can be witnessed by a creature's senses or mind for He alone is truly wise, all-aware.
In 673, it says that God created the universe in accordance to the TRUTH. And how did Abraham find the truth, how was he inspired? Not by a book, but by studying the heavens and the earth. In the verses after 675, Abraham is looking at the sky (the stars, moon, sun), he makes guesses, but then finds out he is wrong (a few times), but it is the universe he is studying. Not a book.
4163 BEHOLD, We have inspired thee just as We inspired Noah and all the prophets after him - as We inspired Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and their descendants, including Jesus and Job, and Jonah, and Aaron, and Solomon; and as We vouchsafed unto David a book of divine wisdom;
What is the book of divine wisdom? Well, did Abraham get inspired by a book like the quran? No. So it can't be a book. It is the heavens and the earth.
And guess what, look at 4162, which talks about knowledgeble people.4162 But as for those from among them who are deeply rooted in knowledge, and the believers who believe in that which has been bestowed upon thee from on high as well as that which was bestowed from on high before thee, and those who are constant in prayer, and spend in charity, and all who believe in God and the Last Day - these it is unto whom We shall grant a mighty reward.
It is the people who are deeply rooted in knowledge that God has inspired just like the prophets before him.
I posted 26197, well here's 26190-196
26190 In this , behold, there is a message , even though most of them will not believe .
I think the word "ayah" is translated as "story" here, can someone make sure for me?
26191 But, verily, thy Sustainer - He alone - is almighty, a dispenser of grace!
26192 Now, behold, this has indeed been bestowed from on high by the Sustainer of all the worlds 26193 trustworthy divine inspiration has alighted with it from on highIt keeps saying that truth and inspiration comes from "on high." What is "on high?" Is it the sky? I doubt it. I've never seen anything useful fall from the sky. I think it's talking about a higher mental state.
Again, it's not a book.26194 upon thy heart, so that thou mayest be among those who preach
26195 in the clear Arabic tongue.Ayman has argued that "arabic" is not a proper noun there, but just a word for "clear."
So it's a clear language.
the quran is hardly clear language.26196 And, verily, this is indeed found in the ancient books of divine wisdom .
So, the essence of this revelation can be found in ancient books of divine wisdom?
The fact is that the quran gives us "truths we already possess." We already know what is in it. And it is a message as old as mankind itself. It's been written down in books like the quran a million times before. The message is the same.2101 And when there has come unto them an apostle from God, confirming the truth already in their possession, some of those who were granted revelation aforetime cast the divine writ behind their backs as though unaware ,
4153 In time We shall make them fully understand Our messages in the utmost horizons and within them?selves, so that it will become clear unto them that this is indeed the truth. is it not enough that thy Sustainer is witness unto everything?
Once again, people will understand the message in the utmost horizons of the universe and within ourselves. Not in a book.
2164 Verily, in the creation of the heavens and of the earth, and the succession of night and day and in the ships that speed through the sea with what is useful to man and in the waters which God sends down from the sky, giving life thereby to the earth after it had, been lifeless, and causing all manner of living creatures to multiply thereon and in the change of the winds, and the clouds that run their appointed courses between sky and earth there are messages indeed for people who use their reason.
yet again, messages for people in the sky and earth. No book is mentioned.
3190 Verily, in the creation of the heavens and the earth, and in the succession of night and day, there are indeed messages for all who are endowed with insight,
3191 who remember God when they stand, and when they sit, and when they lie down to sleep, and reflect on the creation of the heavens and the earth "O our Sustainer! Thou hast not created this without meaning and purpose. Limitless art Thou in Thy glory! Keep us safe, then, from suffering through fire!
4132 And unto God belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is on earth; and none is as worthy of trust as God.
No one is as trust worthy as God. NO ONE. Including Muhammad or whoever wrote the Quran.
So, do we go to the quran, or do we go straight to God and his creation?5120 God's is the dominion over the heavens and the earth and all that they contain; and He has the power to will anything.
The point I'm trying to make is that the universe, and all the knowledge in it, is the source of this book we call the Quran. We don't use the Quran to verify everything, but we use the universe to verify books, including the Quran.
God did not write a book. That's not how God inspired Abraham.
God wrote this world. And Abraham studied this world. So did Muhammad. And that brings us the Quran.
Muhammad did write the quran, or maybe he delivered his message orally. It doesn't matter. What's important is that it was his message.
BTW, I'm not arguing that the quran is wrong. It can be 100% true. And every bit of truth it contains is divine.
I don't want to take this to the "critical examination" section because I'm not criticizing what the quran is saying, I'm just saying that it doesn't say what some think it says.
also read my earlier post on page 10.and keep in mind that my interpretation of the above verses may differ from yours. even though most of the verses are pretty clear and straighforward. I apologize for any glaring mistake I may have made.
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Peace
The following verses say Abraham recieved a book
87 18 And this is in the Books of the earliest (Revelations)
87 19 The Books of Abraham and Moses.3 84 Say "We believe in Allah and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham Isma`il Isaac Jacob and the Tribes and in (Books) given to Moses Jesus and the Prophets from their Lord; we make no distinction between one and another among them and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."