Who built the kaaba that is in Mecca?

Raj-ah

Agent XXx

Historical Evidences? Ambiguous verses are not historical evidences bro, they are interpretations based on assumptions

What do you mean by ambiguous verses?? and all those researchers research work is just a crap which i noted??
Hail to you then!!!!

Can you show from the Quran where Ishmael settled?
Can you produce one single verse from the Quran stating that he settled in Mecca?
Can you even find a single verse where Becca/puran is said to be an alternate name for Mecca?
In what direction was the original Qiblah pointing?
What is the location of the sacred mosque i.e. masjid al-haram?
If you claim that it is Mecca, can you produce a single verse stating that the sacred mosque is located there?
What was so special about Mecca? Why ibrahim/hagar/Ismail avoided medina an oasis and went all the way to a place hot humid place with no agriculture and sparse water?
Why did Ibrahim banished his son so far away?
Did Ibrahim/Ismail came to Mecca before the birth of ishaq or after?

Yes! and infact I showed you where Ismail settled according to Quran; for the last time again

Our Lord! Lo! I have settled some of my posterity in an uncultivable valley near unto Thy holy House, our Lord! that they may establish proper worship; so incline some hearts of men that they may yearn toward them, and provide Thou them with fruits in order that they may be thankful.

So this clearly refutes the claim of ayman who said that house of Allah can be any where.

Yes! and infact i showed you already but for one more time

The first House (of worship) appointed for men was that at Bakka full of blessing and of guidance for all kinds of beings In it are signs manifest; (for example) the Station of Abraham; whoever enters it attains security; pilgrimage thereto is a duty men owe to Allah those who can afford the journey; but if any deny faith Allah stands not in need of any of his creatures. (The Noble Quran, 396-97)"

Yes! Galatians 425 clearly suggest that Mount Sinai is located in Saudi Arabia. This means that Paran being south of Mount Sinai clearly means that it is the Holy City of Mecca

"Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. (From the NIV Bible, Galatians 425)"
"He said 'The LORD came from Sinai and dawned over them from Seir; he shone forth from Mount Paran. He came with myriads of holy ones from the south, from his mountain slopes.' (From the NIV Bible, Deuteronomy 332)"

Next points in next post

but for the three questions of yours which have been answered I have only One

Where is the House of Allah located ??

Samia

SAMIA
Not too fast dear Samia; Ibn Khatir writes

(And, when he (his son) was old enough to walk with him,) means, when he grew up and started to go with his father and walk with him, for Ibrahim used to go every so often to check on his son and his mother in the land of Faran (i.e., Makkah), to see how they were doing

Here's the Arabic tafseer of Ibn Katheer for verses 37 99-113 amongst which is verse 102 you cited above. Please show me where this word "faran" IN ANY MEANING appears (this is also what I have in hardcopy)

http//www.al-eman.com/islamLib/viewchp.asp?BID=134&CID=101#s14

Moreover. Al-Tabari who is before Ibn Katheer did not mention this name in his tafseer for these verses, nor did Ar-Razi.

I donot know what to say about your 12 years schooling of HADITH and TAFSEER. Remember we are not discussing authenticity of what is written we are just EXPOSING the intention behind what you said.

You contested the meaning of "Paran" but does it mean what I quoted was wrong? if Yes say it so! In fact it is more likely as is suppported by Quranic verses and History.

as Paran is the ancient name of the part of Arabia where the children of Ishmael, the ancestors of Muhammad, settled. The Arabic form of the word Paran is Faran or Pharan. Jacut's Geographishes Worterbuch (F. Westenfielt, Leipzig, 1862, Vol. III, P834) says that Faran is a name of Mecca. The word Faran seems to be the Arabic Farran. It means two refugees. It appears that the place took the name from Hager and Ishmaelas, who came there as refugees. Dr. A. Benisch call it in his translation of Pentateuch the desert of Paran.

You don't have to say anything. I cited it as an example of the religious education system in one of the biggest muslim countries in Africa and the Arab world that fails to teach its pupils that Faran=makkah.

I have no problem with what F. Westenfiet says except that

1- Faran is a name of Mecca (is it faran or farran? This is important in Arabic)

Faran is the Arabic of Farran (wrong faran means two mice). It means two refugess (wrong again two escapees, two who are fleeing; two on the run) If you do not trust Arabic dictionaries or do not like them, look up the occurances of the root frr in the qur'aan to flee. (I am even citing verses and chapters numbers to make it easier for you...You are welcome). One flees from a horrible thing, but it seems that the only destination we can flee to is God. This prophet should have fleed to God not to some town full of idols

74 51; 2621; 3316; 628; 8034; 5150 (fleeing to God); 3316; 1818; 3313; 716; 7510

Raj-ah

Agentxxx

In what direction was the original Qiblah pointing?

Please explain what does this mean "Orginal" Qiblah pointing?

Raj-ah

Samia this was my refrence for I quoted

JSTOR Abraham's Journey to Mecca in Islamic Exegesis A Form ...Studies in Islamic and Judaic Traditions ). ..... Ibn Kathir also refers to the area of Mecca as Faran (Commentary IV, 14). ...
links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0585-5292(1992)76<5%3AAJTMII>2.0.CO%3B2-3

Samia

Samia this was my refrence for I quoted

I am not doubting you. I believe that you are honest in quoting references. I am criticizing your references and am trying to show you that they are not trustworthy ,whenever I can.

Raj-ah

Samia

I am not doubting you. I believe that you are honest in quoting references. I am criticizing your references and am trying to show you that they are not trustworthy ,whenever I can
.

Well thanks for not doubting. You should critisize that is your right but then you should present solid contra evidences. And if on both sides if we have evidences and are not been able to decide which one of them weighs more we should not issue STATEMENTS, that is my issue! as you and some others do. For example there is "Zero evidence for existense of Makkah during time of Muhammad" is a statement which is a statement that needs no comments.

Raj-ah

AgentXXX

In what direction was the original Qiblah pointing?

Rajah

Please explain what does this mean "Orginal" Qiblah pointing?

Since you have not explained, (I guess deliberately) let us move on.

I would like to quote to you from Muwatta' Malik

Malik narrated to me on the authority of Nafithat Umar Ibn al-Khattab said " between the East and the West is taken as a Qiblah as long as one heads towards the House"

In the Hanafi, Maliki and Hanbali schools of Islamic Jurisprudence, the criterion of facing the direction of prayer (i.e., Qiblah) is merely that some portion of the person's face to be directed towards the Kabah. This takes in 180?, from far left to far right, such that when the Kabah is anywhere between , one is considered facing the prayer. In the Shafi`i school, facing the direction of prayer is a necessary condition. If the direction is not known that the person asks someone who knows; if no such person is available he uses personal reasoning.

In the early centuries of Islam, Muslim did not have tools to determine the Qiblah with precision. Only from third century onwards mathematical solutions for determining Qiblah were available; even then their use was not widespread. The folk astronomy retained its strength as suggested by various mosques in Cairo, Cordova and Samarqand. This gave rise to various directions of Qiblah, sometimes way off from the true direction.

The following study exposes the lies of Patricia crone, Joseph smith and their followers sorry to say like Layth.

The Qiblah Of Early Mosques Jerusalem Or Makkah?

M S M Saifullah, Muhammad Ghoniem, `Abd al-Rahman Robert Squires & Mansur Ahmed

Samia

Salaam Rajah

Samia.

Well thanks for not doubting. You should critisize that is your right but then you should present solid contra evidences. And if on both sides if we have evidences and are not been able to decide which one of them weighs more we should not issue STATEMENTS, that is my issue! as you and some others do. For example there is "Zero evidence for existense of Makkah during time of Muhammad" is a statement which is a statement that needs no comments.

Rajah

We all produce hypothesis and try to support them with evidence. If an evidence could not stand scrutiny, it is therefore not valid and the hypothesis built on it falls.

You still want me to present solid contra evidence for the hypothesis that makkah is faarraan? confused What more do you want after I have refuted your references to any old mention of this name? I said no old islamic or arabic book mentioned this and you did not prove me wrong.

If you have better argument supported by authentic reference, proving that faarraan is another old name for makkah, I am eager to see it. I am here to learn and do not shy from saying I was ignorant on this or that matter.

I already said I was never taught this and never heard of it. So, I already admitted my ignorance concerning this issue.

A personal question which I asked you on this thread sometime ago when and how did you know that makkah is also called faarraan?

Salaam Rajah

Have you ever heard before that makkah is also called "faran"? If so, which book refers to it in this name?

Raj-ah

Orginal Qibla

No doubt The Kaba in Makkah was meant to be the Qiblah from the beginning, because the Quran said that it was the First House (Awwal Bait 396) established for mankind to worship the One God.

why did then Muslims and Muhammad kept on facing the Jerusalem as Qibla in yearly years of his preaching??

Common Sense the Kaaba was full of idols then, and the House of Allah had been corrupted again by the corrupters, now in early part of preaching if MUHAMMAD started praying facing towards Kaaba that is in Makah, what message would have it conveyed, it would have opened the doors of conspiracies due to the nature of Meccans. In Madina until and when the original message of Abraham was re-established and the new Muslims became confident in their faith, then only the Qibla was shifted back to Kaaba.

There are many instances of this type of change in Islamic legislation. As one example, visiting graves was forbidden in the beginning of Muhammad's messengership.

Later it was permitted because Muslims had learned the difference between a grave visit and ancestor worship. At first, the Prophet forbade his people to write down his words except when he told them that what he was saying was revelation - the Quran, the Word of Allah.

Later when people learned the difference between the Quran and Hadith (sayings and deeds of the Prophet), he gave them permission to write Hadith as well.

Furthermore, it is important to note that the Bible says that the early Israelites in Jerusalem used to turn to the southern direction when making their most sacred prayers and offerings (Exodus 279; 4024). The Kaba is in the southern direction of Jerusalem. Thus we can say that the Kaba was also a Qiblah for the earlier Israelite communities as well.

And let there be an open space round the House, with hangings for its south side of the best linen,..... Exodus 279

Also
I will bow down toward your holy temple and will praise your name for your love and your faithfulness, for you have exalted above all things your name and your word. (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 1382)"

While it is true that many ignorant and illiterate Muslims might incline toward idol worship and do consider the actual Kaaba as a very sacred thing to a point where they would go as far as rubbing their bodies against it to get "blessings", but these people are not representing the True picture of Islam. If a person worships the Kaaba itself, then he/she becomes an idol worshiper in my opnion.

But just because of some corruptions in original teachings of prophets have occured regarding performing rituals at Kaaba, does not mean at all that we start trying changing the KAABA from MECCA to a Place which does not fullfill any prophecy of Quran as I have mentioned before.

Praise be To Allah.

Raj-ah

Samia
I said no old islamic or arabic book mentioned this and you did not prove me wrong.

Samia, some times I like you r style of responding, well,

Peak of Faran- Faran is the mountain on which the Cave of Hira is located.

the Deuteronomy 332 verse is written as

"..he hath appeared from mount Pharan.."

Which leans more towards the Arabic/Aramaic way of pronouncing it.
Mount Pharan is the area located between the mountains of Abu-Qubays, Qi`an, and Hira? in Makkah and evry one residing there knows it.

Samia

The name faran as another name for makkah only emerged to contest the verse you quoted from the OT. This is very clear from just googling "faran" in Arabic, and you will find it ONLY in forums contesting, like you, that makkah is mentioned in the OT

Oh! I see F. Westenfielt, Leipzig in 1862 was contesting in a forum O0 and all the other refrences I quoted were contesting in forums THANKS for improving my knowldge ( (

as Paran is the ancient name of the part of Arabia where the children of Ishmael, the ancestors of Muhammad, settled. The Arabic form of the word Paran is Faran or Pharan. Jacut's Geographishes Worterbuch (F. Westenfielt, Leipzig, 1862, Vol. III, P834) says that Faran is a name of Mecca. The word Faran seems to be the Arabic Farran. It means two refugees. It appears that the place took the name from Hager and Ishmaelas, who came there as refugees. Dr. A. Benisch call it in his translation of Pentateuch the desert of Paran.

Samia

This statement you quote

The name faran as another name for makkah only emerged to contest the verse you quoted from the OT. This is very clear from just googling "faran" in Arabic, and you will find it ONLY in forums contesting, like you, that makkah is mentioned in the OT

was part of the same message in which I commented on the mentioning of "faarraan" by Y. Alhamawy, so from this context it could not mean that I was saying "the first time it was mentioned". I meant "appeared again", Maybe I should have used the verb "re-emerged".

Mount Pharan is the area located between the mountains of Abu-Qubays, Qi`an, and Hira? in Makkah and every one residing there knows it.

How do you know? Is it first hand knowledge?

Jacut's Geographishes Worterbuch (F. Westenfielt, Leipzig, 1862, Vol. III, P834) says that Faran is a name of Mecca.

So, now you bring me Yaqut Al-Hamawy in German to tell me, again, that "he says that Faran is a name of Mecca? Well, I tell you, and told you before, he did not. I have Yaqut Al Hamawy in Arabic. He says in the "faarraan" entry "They say it is a name for mecca". The man did not know of that before. Even the spelling of the title of the reference is wrong. How could a scholar quote a wrong name? This , in fact is written as "Jacut's Geographisches Worterbuch ...." and means "Yaqut'a Geographical Dictionary".

Raj-ah

Samia

meant "appeared again", Maybe I should have used the verb "re-emerged
".

Re-emerged so you acknowldged that it was called Faran or as you pronounce it Faarran even before some people satrted it discussing at internet. At least you acknowldged.

Even the spelling of the title of the reference is wrong.

Ok we are attending english class now.
From experience I have learnt that when arguments become weak, we try to pull out straws, what does spelling has to do with the Context of the work. Spelling mistake is of the quoter and not of the one who's work is been represented.

How do you know? Is it first hand knowledge
?

Quite astonishing? have you ever been to Siberia? I guess no? so what is your source to believe that there is Siberia?
have you been to moon? I guess No? so what is your source to believe that some one actually went to Moon? all you have is secondary knowldge? even about your grandpa or ma you just have second hand knowldge.
Come on Samia be reasonable and let the discussion move on.

Samia

Samia".

Re-emerged so you acknowldged that it was called Faran or as you pronounce it Faarran even before some people satrted it discussing at internet. At least you acknowldged.

Now do not misquote me. Acknowledging that it was called faarraan is not the same as acknowledging that some author mentioned that it was said that it was called faarraan.

Ok we are attending english class now.
From experience I have learnt that when arguments become weak, we try to pull out straws, what does spelling has to do with the Context of the work. Spelling mistake is of the quoter and not of the one who's work is been represented.

No. I am not splitting the hairs of spelling, not me with my many spelling mistakes and typos. But when you quote an author who cannot even write his reference correctly, this throws doubts on the author's seriousness. How can a researcher who does not bother about making sure of the correct spelling of the name of his reference be trusted with a research of a higher level?

Quite astonishing? have you ever been to Siberia? I guess no? so what is your source to believe that there is Siberia?
have you been to moon? I guess No? so what is your source to believe that some one actually went to Moon? all you have is secondary knowldge? even about your grandpa or ma you just have second hand knowldge.
Come on Samia be reasonable and let the discussion move on.

My question was genuine. It is not meant to be sarcastic or rhetoric. If the people of that area know that, but no one else does, i would presume that either you have been there or know some of them. That was my question. Consider it a rephrasing of a question I posted twice before and will post it again

Salaam Rajah
Have you ever heard before that makkah is also called "faran"? If so, which book refers to it in this name?

and for some reason you do not want to answer.

agentxxx

Peace Rajah,

rajah-What do you mean by ambiguous verses?? and all those researchers research work is just a crap which i noted??
Hail to you then!!!!

http//i73.photobucket.com/albums/i231/nabpeace/gif%20files/coolani.gif That the spirit bro

rajah-Since you have not explained, (I guess deliberately) let us move on.

you have the right to guess bro )

Rajah-
Our Lord! Lo! I have settled some of my posterity in an uncultivable valley near unto Thy holy House, our Lord! that they may establish proper worship; so incline some hearts of men that they may yearn toward them, and provide Thou them with fruits in order that they may be thankful.

So this clearly refutes the claim of ayman who said that house of Allah can be any where.

Bro Rajah what is clear to you in the above verse is unfortunately not clear to me at all?the exact location of the holy house cannot be clearly established from the above verse, neither can the location of the ?uncultivable valley? be clearly established.
This is an ambiguous verse that leaves a lot of space for speculations.

rajah
2. Yes! and infact i showed you already but for one more time

The first House (of worship) appointed for men was that at Bakka full of blessing and of guidance for all kinds of beings In it are signs manifest; (for example) the Station of Abraham; WHOEVER ENTERS IT ATTAINS SECURITY; pilgrimage thereto is a duty men owe to Allah those who can afford the journey; but if any deny faith Allah stands not in need of any of his creatures. (The Noble Quran, 396-97)"

Most surely the first house appointed for men is the one at BEKKA, blessed and a guidance for the nations.
Inna awwala baitiw wudi'a linna_si lallazi bi BAKKATA muba_rakw wa hudal lil'a_lamin(a).
And He it is Who held back their hands from you and your hands from them in the valley of MECCA after He had given you victory over them; and Allah is Seeing what you do.
Wa huwal lazi kaf fa aidiyahum ankum wa aidiyakum anhum bibatnikMAK KATA min badi an azfarakum alaihim wa ka_nal la_hu bima_ tamalu_na basira_

*Why two different names are mentioned in different verses for the same particular place?

*Isn?t it an indication that BACCA and MECCA are two different places and not one?

rajah
3. Yes! Galatians 425 clearly suggest that Mount Sinai is located in Saudi Arabia. This means that Paran being south of Mount Sinai clearly means that it is the Holy City of Mecca

"Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. (From the NIV Bible, Galatians 425)"
"He said 'The LORD came from Sinai and dawned over them from Seir; he shone forth from Mount Paran. He came with myriads of holy ones from the south, from his mountain slopes.' (From the NIV Bible, Deuteronomy 332)"

Next points in next post

brother we are going in circles, I have enough evidence to believe that Ibrahim/Hagar/Ismail never came to Mecca.

The geographical location of Mecca, the verses 2846, 323, 366 of Quran and the verses from bible I have posted are enough evidence for me ??you on the other hand have your evidence to believe that they did came to Mecca??neither will you follow a wrong path intentionally, nor will I, its just a matter of understanding?.. I will second Sis Samia statement that ?I am here to learn and will not shy from saying I was ignorant on this or that matter?.

I was brought up in a traditional family, the maternal side of my family is mainly shias and the paternal side mainly sunni, after studying quran in my own language my whole concept about religion/belief changed and I have learned that with the passage of time, with knowledge and personal experiences in life, concepts do change?..so I am not afraid of changing, however now the evidence required for a change is based upon logical/evidence rather then emotional or religious based evidences.

rajah-but for the three questions of yours which have been answered I have only One

Where is the House of Allah located??

If I knew positively where it was?.I wouldn?t be discussing it.
So my answer is ?It could be anywhere?.

We generally regard all the mosques or other places of worship, as house of Allah. The mosque of regent park London, Badshahi mosque of Lahore and Delhi, Faisal mosques in Islamabad etc, none of these or any others mosque on this planet were build by Ibrahim, but they are still sacred places for us.

Rajah-why did then Muslims and Muhammad kept on facing the Jerusalem as Qibla in yearly years of his preaching??

Common Sense the Kaaba was full of idols then, and the House of Allah had been corrupted again by the corrupters, now in early part of preaching if MUHAMMAD started praying facing towards Kaaba that is in Makah, what message would have it conveyed, it would have opened the doors of conspiracies due to the nature of Meccans. In Madina until and when the original message of Abraham was re-established and the new Muslims became confident in their faith, then only the Qibla was shifted back to Kaaba.

Brother this is your understanding regarding the changing of qibla and you may be right in your own way, but others have their own point of view and their own understand regarding this change.

According to the history the change of qibla took place in 624 and the conquest of Mecca in 630?..SO FOR SIX YEARS MUSLIMS WERE FACING AND PRAYING TOWARDS A QIBLA WHICH WAS FULL OF PAGAN IDOLS AND THE WORSHIP OF FALSE GODS WAS THE DAILY PRACTICE AT THIS SHRINE, so I am not sure what do you mean by restoring of the original message of Ibrahim.

There are also those who say that the change of qibla was not from Jerusalem to Mecca but the other way around.

And there are many who give these reasons
Muhammad sought to win the Jews to Islam, and adopting their direction of prayer was one of the tools employed in this endeavor. After it became clear that the Jews would never follow him, he turned against them, and abandoned the fasting at Ashura and the Qiblah that he had chosen to impress them and win them over. After Muhammad had lost hope that the Jewish and Christian communities would join his movement, the only groups he could still hope to unite in his religion were the various pagan tribes of Arabia.

Muhammad had followed various religious observances of the Jews to gain their favor. Apparently for similar opportunistic reasons he now changed the Muslim Qiblah towards the Kabah, the central shrine of the Arab pagan religion, despite the fact that it was full of idols. It is hardly unfounded speculation when one gets the suspicion that he gave their holy place an important position in his religion in order to make it more attractive for the Arabs to join Islam.

O Muhammad, many a time We noticed you turning your face towards heaven; now We will make you turn towards a Qiblah THAT WILL PLEASE YOU. Turn your face during Salah towards the Sacred Mosque (Ka'bah); wherever you are turn your face in that direction. The people of the Book know this to be the truth from their Rabb. Allah is not unaware of what they do. S. 2144 F.

**Did Allah change the qibla in order to appease Muhammad?s desires and wishes?
**Was it a political move?

According to Yunus b. ?Abd al-A?la ? Ibn Wahb ? Ibn Zayd The Prophet turned towards Jerusalem for sixteen months, and then it reached his ears that the Jews were saying, "By God, Muhammad and his companions did not know where their Qiblah was until we directed them." This displeased the Prophet and he raised his face toward Heaven, and God said, "We have seen the turning of your face to Heaven." (The History of Al-Tabari The Foundation of the Community, translated by M. V. McDonald, annotated by W. Montgomery Watt , Volume VII, pp. 24-25; )

While he was in Mecca he faced Syria in prayer, and when he prayed, he prayed between the southern corner and the black stone, putting the Ka?ba between himself and Syria? (The Life of Muhammad A Translation of Ishaq?s Sirat Rasul Allah, with introduction and notes by Alfred Guillaume , p. 135)

Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith-Hadith 6.19-Narrated by Al Bara.
We prayed along with the Prophet facing Jerusalem for sixteen or seventeen months. Then Allah ordered him to turn his face towards the Qibla (in Mecca)
"And from whence-so-ever you start forth (for prayers) turn your face in the direction of (the Sacred Mosque of Mecca) Al-Masjid-ul Haram..." (2.149)

Sunan of Abu-Dawood- Hadith 3299- Narrated by Jabir ibn Abdullah
A man stood on the day of Conquest (of Mecca) and said Apostle of Allah, I have vowed to Allah that if He grants conquest of Mecca at your hands, I SHALL PRAY TWO RAK'AHS IN JERUSALEM. He replied Pray here. He repeated (his statement) to him and he said Pray here. He again repeated (his statement) to him. He (the Prophet) replied Pursue your own course, then.

Sunan of Abu-Dawood-Hadith 3300-Narrated by AbdurRahman ibn Awf
The tradition mentioned above (No.3299) has also been transmitted by Umar ibn AbdurRahman ibn Awf on the authority of his father and the Companions of the Prophet (peace be upon him). This version has "The Prophet (peace be upon him) said By Him Who sent Muhammad with truth, IF YOU PRAYED HERE, THIS WOULD BE SUFFICIENT FOR YOU LIKE THE PRAYER IN JERUSALEM."

**Even at the time of Mecca?s conquest and after, some preferred worshiping/praying in Jerusalem confused

rajah-Come on Samia be reasonable and let the discussion move on.

You must be listening to "DR SHER AFGAN NAIZI" a lot, as this is his favorite quote. ;D

peace

Raj-ah

Our Lord! Lo! I have settled some of my posterity in an uncultivable valley near unto Thy holy House, our Lord! that they may establish proper worship; so incline some hearts of men that they may yearn toward them, and provide Thou them with fruits in order that they may be thankful.

So this clearly refutes the claim of ayman who said that house of Allah can be any where.

Bro Rajah what is clear to you in the above verse is unfortunately not clear to me at all?the exact location of the holy house cannot be clearly established from the above verse, neither can the location of the ?uncultivable valley? be clearly established.
This is an ambiguous verse that leaves a lot of space for speculations.

Al-Quran
An Arabic Quran, without any ambiguity, that they may be righteous.

Sure I will take the words of Allah as Allah says it is without any ambguity, where ever you find it ambigious.

Al-Quran
In a clear Arabic tongue.

Al-Quran
We have revealed it an Arabic Quran, that you may understand

Al-Quran
And We are aware that they say "A human is teaching him." The language of the one they refer to is foreign, while this is a clear Arabic language

These verses show us that Quran was revealed in Arabic! and Pure Arabic, so from this we can safely conclude that Allah is talking about a Place where people speak pure arabic? So who spoke pure arabic at those times? People any where? people in Jerusalem or in Arabia near and around Makkah.

And remember Abraham and Isma'il raised the foundations of the House (With this prayer) "Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us For Thou art the All-Hearing, the All-knowing. Holy Qur'an (2127)

Is there any other building in the world who has been built by Ismail and Abraham? other than Kaaba in MAKKAH?
Jersulem was established a place of prayer much later.

Our Lord! Lo! I have settled some of my posterity in an uncultivable valley near unto Thy holy House, our Lord! that they may establish proper worship; so incline some hearts of men that they may yearn toward them, and provide Thou them with fruits in order that they may be thankful.

As Allah has said Quran is not ambigious and I will also try to show you that there is nothing unclear in the above verse
Ponder on this verse, Abraham has settled his family in an uncultivable valley near unto Allah's house are mentioned in different verses for the same particular place?

*Isn?t it an indication that BACCA and MECCA are two different places and not one?

No they are not; Quran uses different names for Allah, Rehman, Raheem Allah etc. so are there more than one Allah?? Bait-ul-ateeq, Bait Allah are they two different places, Muhammad, Ahmed are they two different persons?

Agent xxx

brother we are going in circles, I have enough evidence to believe that Ibrahim/Hagar/Ismail never came to Mecca.

That evidence is being discussed and I will discuss all your posts regarding this, we have reached and answered your five quetsions I guess.

The geographical location of Mecca, the verses 2846, 323, 366 of Quran and the verses from bible I have posted are enough evidence for me ??

Ok we are going to discuss it next, regarding brother ayman may Allah guide him and show him right path, he has misguided many.

agentxxx

Peace Rajah,

Quote
Bro Rajah what is clear to you in the above verse is unfortunately not clear to me at all?the exact location of the holy house cannot be clearly established from the above verse, neither can the location of the ?uncultivable valley? be clearly established.
This is an ambiguous verse that leaves a lot of space for speculations.

Rajah.
Al-Quran
An Arabic Quran, without any ambiguity, that they may be righteous.

Sure I will take the words of Allah as Allah says it is without any ambguity, where ever you find it ambigious.

Who says this?

He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book IN IT ARE VERSES BASIC OR FUNDAMENTAL (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book OTHERS ARE ALLEGORICAL. BUT THOSE IN WHOSE HEARTS IS PERVERSITY FOLLOW THE PART THEREOF THAT IS ALLEGORICAL, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding. 3 7.

7
C347. This passage gives us an important clue to the interpretation of the Holy Qur-an. Broadly speaking it may be divided into two portions, not given separately, but intermingled viz. (1) the nucleus or foundation of the Book, literally "the mother of the Book". (2) THE PART WHICH IS NOT ENTIRELY CLEAR. It is very fascinating to take up the latter, and exercise our ingenuity about its meaning, but it refers to such profound matters that are beyond human language and though people of wisdom may get some light from it, NO ONE SHOULD BE DOGMATIC, as THE FINAL MEANING IS KNOWN TO ALLAH ALONE.

rajah-Al-Quran
In a clear Arabic tongue.

Al-Quran
We have revealed it an Arabic Quran, that you may understand

Al-Quran
And We are aware that they say "A human is teaching him." The language of the one they refer to is foreign, while this is a clear Arabic language

These verses show us that Quran was revealed in Arabic! and Pure Arabic, so from this we can safely conclude that Allah is talking about a Place where people speak pure arabic? So who spoke pure arabic at those times? People any where? people in Jerusalem or in Arabia near and around Makkah.

Quran was revealed in Arabic for people who understood this language, but we are not discussing where quran was revealed.

We are discussing Ibrahim and the construction of the sacred mosque??..was the language of Ibrahim ?Arabic?? How does this support the construction of kaaba?

And remember Abraham and Isma'il raised the foundations of the House (With this prayer) "Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us For Thou art the All-Hearing, the All-knowing. Holy Qur'an (2127)

rajah- Is there any other building in the world who has been built by Ismail and Abraham? other than Kaaba in MAKKAH?

Yes? the sacred mosque that is not in Mecca.
2127 doesn?t say they raised the foundations of the house in Mecca.

rajah- Jersulem was established a place of prayer much later.

And yet all the prophets before Mohammad were living some where around Jerusalem?.did they not worshiping the almighty?

Our Lord! Lo! I have settled some of my posterity in an uncultivable valley near unto Thy holy House, our Lord! that they may establish proper worship; so incline some hearts of men that they may yearn toward them, and provide Thou them with fruits in order that they may be thankful.

As Allah has said Quran is not ambigious and I will also try to show you that there is nothing unclear in the above verse
Ponder on this verse, Abraham has settled his family in an uncultivable valley near unto Allah's house are mentioned in different verses for the same particular place?

*Isn?t it an indication that BACCA and MECCA are two different places and not one?

No they are not; Quran uses different names for Allah, Rehman, Raheem Allah etc. so are there more than one Allah?? Bait-ul-ateeq, Bait Allah are they two different places, Muhammad, Ahmed are they two different persons?

I think we are discussing the name of a PLACE and not Allah and his messengers or a building.

Agent xxx
brother we are going in circles, I have enough evidence to believe that Ibrahim/Hagar/Ismail never came to Mecca.

rajah-That evidence is being discussed and I will discuss all your posts regarding this, we have reached and answered your five quetsions I guess.

Yes you may have answered five questions?but are they ration answers??..NO

agentxxx-The geographical location of Mecca, the verses 2846, 323, 366 of Quran and the verses from bible I have posted are enough evidence for me ??

rajah- Ok we are going to discuss it next, REGARDING BROTHER AYMAN MAY ALLAH GUIDE HIM AND SHOW HIM RIGHT PATH, HE HAS MISGUIDED MANY.

So to be on the right path it is necessary to follow what you say?

According to Quran the definition of the right path

Say Come I will recite what your Lord has forbidden to you-- (remember) that YOU DO NOT ASSOCIATE ANYTHING WITH HIM and SHOW KINDNESS TO YOUR PARENTS, and DO NOT SLAY YOUR CHILDREN for (fear of) poverty-- We provide for you and for them-- and DO NOT DRAW NIGH TO INDECENCIES, those of them which are apparent and those which are concealed, and DO NOT KILL THE SOUL WHICH ALLAH HAS FORBIDDEN except for the requirements of justice; this He has enjoined you with that you may understand. 6151.

And DO NOT APPROACH THE PROPERTY OF THE ORPHAN except in the best manner until he attains his maturity, and GIVE FULL MEASURE AND WEIGHT WITH JUSTICE-- We do not impose on any soul a duty except to the extent of its ability; and WHEN YOU SPEAK, THEN BE JUST though it be (against) a relative, and fulfill Allah's covenant; THIS HE HAS ENJOINED YOU WITH THAT YOU MAY BE MINDFUL;
And (know) that THIS IS MY PATH, THE RIGHT ONE therefore follow it, and FOLLOW NOT (OTHER) WAYS, FOR THEY WILL LEAD YOU AWAY FROM HIS WAY; this He has enjoined you with that you may guard (against evil)

Conclusion
DO NOT ASSOCIATE ANYTHING WITH HIM
SHOW KINDNESS TO YOUR PARENTS
DO NOT SLAY YOUR CHILDREN
DO NOT DRAW NIGH TO INDECENCIES
DO NOT KILL THE SOUL WHICH ALLAH HAS FORBIDDEN
DO NOT APPROACH THE PROPERTY OF THE ORPHAN
GIVE FULL MEASURE AND WEIGHT WITH JUSTICE
WHEN YOU SPEAK, THEN BE JUST

QURAN SAYS THOSE WHO FOLLOW THESE COMMANDMENTS ARE ON THE RIGHT PATH.

AND FOLLOW THE BEST THAT HAS BEEN REVEALED TO YOU FROM YOUR LORD before there comes to you the punishment all of a sudden while you do not even perceive;

Quran also say
449. Have you not considered THOSE WHO ATTRIBUTE PURITY TO THEMSELVES? Nay, ALLAH PURIFIES WHOM HE PLEASES; and they shall not be wronged the husk of a date stone.

I am sorry to say that your comments about brother ayman are ridicules .

peace

Zidane

Greetings & Peace,

I apologize for interrupting, I want to share something with the community

2140 "Or do you say that Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Patriarchs were all Jewish or Nazarene?" Say "Are you more knowledgeable or is God?" Who is more wicked than one who conceals a testimony with him from God? God is not unaware of what you do.
2141 That was a nation that passed away, to them is what they earned and to you is what you have earned; you will not be asked about what they did.
2142 The foolish from amongst the people will say "What has turned them away from the focal point that they were on?" Say "To God is the east and the west, He guides whomsoever He wishes to a straight path."

And

2177 Piety is not to turn your faces towards the east and the west, but piety is one who believes in God and the Last Day, and the angels, and the Scripture, and the prophets, and who gives money out of love to the relatives, and the orphans, and the needy and the wayfarer, and those who ask, and to free the slaves; and who honors the connection, and who contributes towards betterment; as well as those who keep their pledges when they make a pledge, and those who are patient in the face of good and bad and when in despair. These are the ones who have been truthful, and they are the righteous.

Therefore, whatever conclusions one might come to understand, this issue is probably not "Piety" - as stated in the above verse.

Therefore, to me, this whole issue is not of real significance, because either way they are both "rocks/stones" - and we don't worship that - we worship God alone. Therefore, what is more important would rather be to believe in God and do good works

262 Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Nazarenes, and the Sabians, whomever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good work; they will have their reward with their Lord, with no fear over them, nor will they grieve.

569 Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Sabians, and the Nazarenes, whomever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good work; then they will have nothing to fear nor will they grieve.

6511 A messenger who recites to you God's revelations, which are clear, to lead those who believe and work righteousness out of the darkness into the light. Anyone who believes in God and does good works, He will admit him into paradises with rivers flowing beneath; they abide therein forever. God has granted for him and excellent reward.

Yes, we all want to find the truth of many issues but only God can provide it to whom he wills, so let us not be rude to each other - making enemies. We can surely continue to discuss to make effort for God to provide us with the truth - but only God can provide us with it - so it would rather be done in a peaceful/pious/best manner. God sees all that you do, do it with reverence to Him.

agentxxx

Greetings & Peace,

I apologize for interrupting, I want to share something with the community

2140 "Or do you say that Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Patriarchs were all Jewish or Nazarene?" Say "Are you more knowledgeable or is God?" Who is more wicked than one who conceals a testimony with him from God? God is not unaware of what you do.
2141 That was a nation that passed away, to them is what they earned and to you is what you have earned; you will not be asked about what they did.
2142 The foolish from amongst the people will say "What has turned them away from the focal point that they were on?" Say "To God is the east and the west, He guides whomsoever He wishes to a straight path."

And

2177 Piety is not to turn your faces towards the east and the west, but piety is one who believes in God and the Last Day, and the angels, and the Scripture, and the prophets, and who gives money out of love to the relatives, and the orphans, and the needy and the wayfarer, and those who ask, and to free the slaves; and who honors the connection, and who contributes towards betterment; as well as those who keep their pledges when they make a pledge, and those who are patient in the face of good and bad and when in despair. These are the ones who have been truthful, and they are the righteous.

Therefore, whatever conclusions one might come to understand, this issue is probably not "Piety" - as stated in the above verse.

Therefore, to me, this whole issue is not of real significance, because either way they are both "rocks/stones" - and we don't worship that - we worship God alone. Therefore, what is more important would rather be to believe in God and do good works

262 Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Nazarenes, and the Sabians, whomever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good work; they will have their reward with their Lord, with no fear over them, nor will they grieve.

569 Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Sabians, and the Nazarenes, whomever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good work; then they will have nothing to fear nor will they grieve.

6511 A messenger who recites to you God's revelations, which are clear, to lead those who believe and work righteousness out of the darkness into the light. Anyone who believes in God and does good works, He will admit him into paradises with rivers flowing beneath; they abide therein forever. God has granted for him and excellent reward.

Yes, we all want to find the truth of many issues but only God can provide it to whom he wills, so let us not be rude to each other - making enemies. We can surely continue to discuss to make effort for God to provide us with the truth - but only God can provide us with it - so it would rather be done in a peaceful/pious/best manner. God sees all that you do, do it with reverence to Him. )

Peace Zidane very good post bro bravo

peace

Samia

Greetings & Peace,

I apologize for interrupting, I want to share something with the community

2140 "Or do you say that Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Patriarchs were all Jewish or Nazarene?" Say "Are you more knowledgeable or is God?" Who is more wicked than one who conceals a testimony with him from God? God is not unaware of what you do.
2141 That was a nation that passed away, to them is what they earned and to you is what you have earned; you will not be asked about what they did.

Salaam Zidane

A very good post. The two verses quoted are more than enough to debunk the rituals of hajj which are a replay of a part of the life of Ibrahim and his family. If God says that we will not be asked about what they did/usd to do, how come some believe that He is commanding us to make a small play telling what Ibrahim did or what his wife did!

Zidane

Greetings & Peace to all,

) Thanks agentxxx, Samia, I'm happy that you appreciate it. peace

If God says that we will not be asked about what they did/usd to do, how come some believe that He is commanding us to make a small play telling what Ibrahim did or what his wife did!

) Wow, Samia, a very interesting & good point. peace

May God Guide