Who built the kaaba that is in Mecca?
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By the way, Layth's article, "where was mohammed?" is also relevant to this question. And that goes well with lots of the directed context/audience said so many times in the quran like "O Children of Israel" and "O people of the Scripture".
http//free-minds.org/articles/history/moh.htm
As for my own understanding of "who" actually built the one at Mecca, I think these verses might refer to them
9107 And there are those who establish a temple to do harm and cause rejection, and to divide between the believers, and as an outpost for those who fought God and His messenger before. They will swear that they only wanted to do good, and God bears witness that they are liars.
9108 Do not maintain in it ever. A temple that is founded on righteousness from the first day is more worthy that you maintain in it; in it are men who love to be cleansed. And God loves the cleansed.
9109 Is one who lays his foundation on obtaining righteousness from God and His acceptance better, or one who lays his foundation on the edge of a cliff which is about to crumble, so that it crumbled with him into the fires of Hell? God does not guide the wicked people.
9110 Such a structure that they erect will continue to cause doubt in their hearts, until their hearts are severed. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.May God Guide
Salam (Greeting) Zidane
I don't understand what you mean, is what you are saying that 9107-110 are talking about Al Masjid Al Haram?
Thanks
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Salaam Ahmed,
According to Layth's article, "Where was mohammed?", in part 2 at http//free-minds.org/articles/history/moh2.htm, the Masjid Al Haram or the Sacred Mosque/Temple was rather the one at the "Dome of the Rock" in Jerusalem rather than the one at Mecca.
Clearly, I don't think those verses refer to the real Masjid Al Haram. Using this understanding, I think they refer to a Temple that was built to emulate it - thus "do harm and cause rejection, and to divide between the believers, and as an outpost for those who fought God and His messenger before" - this might be the "kaaba" at Mecca (which also has many pagan symbols/rituals with it).
Again, this is just my understanding, I am well aware that many do agree and many don't agree with the whole theory itself and I respect that different people can see the same thing in different ways. To me, this is whole issue not of real significance, because either way they are both "rocks/stones". The real objective of us all is to worship God alone and do good. The small issues caused so much trouble in the past and they continue to do so today - I hereby apologize to anyone whom my understandings might seem offensive. Yes, we can be different and work together for an overall better community that tries its best to please God. )
May God Guide.
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peace Zidane,
Smiley Nice to hear that you are taking your time and efforts for God! peace
thanks for understanding angel
The real objective of us all is to worship God alone and do good
I absolutely agree with you )
peace AB, good to see you still going strong bro ), I hope you and your family in "Australia/Egypt" are fine. sun
peace
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Salaam Ahmed,
Salam brother
According to Layth's article, "Where was mohammed?", in part 2 at http//free-minds.org/articles/history/moh2.htm, the Masjid Al Haram or the Sacred Mosque/Temple was rather the one at the "Dome of the Rock" in Jerusalem rather than the one at Mecca.
Firstly, according to an article means nothing really, I was asking you about your own understanding to 9107-108, on the other hand Layth article is full of mistakes and I replied already to the first 2 parts and have shown severe mistakes and illogical events according to the article author, I stopped replying to it due to the fact that what I presented from the Quran was enough to refute it fair and square but it seems a lot of young Muslims get excited with the article then get dragged and drugged and just follow it blindly despite the non sense it, then try to do the same that those authors do, which is to manipulate many verses to justify their non sense, this is also what Rashad Khalifah did exactly btw his cult follower continue to do just that, and even this is what the sunnis do as all sects do for that matter.
Well, it seems I have to resume my reply to the other 3 parts of that article and count the mistakes in?m then summarize the whole refute in clear points so it is easy for the young Muslims to understand.
Clearly, I don't think those verses refer to the real Masjid Al Haram.
Those verse ares referring to any Masjid ?Mosque?, the word mentioned ?Masjid? which is nakirah, i.e. unknown, i.e. any Masjid, which I agree it may apply to Al Masjid Al Haram because it is a Masjid, however the context of the verses do not apply to Al Masjid Al Haram logically, let?s look at the verses and I will use your English translation you have provided and see how accurate it is
9107 And there are those who establish a temple to do harm and cause rejection, and to divide between the believers, and as an outpost for those who fought God and His messenger before. They will swear that they only wanted to do good, and God bears witness that they are liars.
9108 Do not maintain in it ever. A temple that is founded on righteousness from the first day is more worthy that you maintain in it; in it are men who love to be cleansed. And God loves the cleansed.
(107)
(10-> Verse 107, is a description of any unknown Masjid that its owners use it to hurt and divide the believers, and as I agreed it may include Al Masjid Al Haram as it is currently known in Mecca, however the word ?Dirara? does not really incline that Al Masjid in question is fake, rather its owner use it to cause harm, but the masjid stays the same as a place to worship Allah for those who want to perform Sijood to Him in these places, possibly those who are not aware that Al Masjid is being used to hurt the believers by its current owners, if we also check what happens inside Al Masjid Al Haram and compare it with hundreds of other masjids scattered around the so called Muslim countries, it will be obvious that Al Masjid Al Haram is not used to divide the believers rather to unite them, (even under the flawed understanding that it is a lace for idol worshiping) it still unite them, it does not divide them, and certainly Al Masjid Al Haram is not a place to initiate wars against Allah and His messenger, on the other hand I have been in many masjids that its owners act in such manner described in 9107, let me check the translation you provided
107, ? And there are those who establish a temple to do harm and cause rejection, and to divide between the believers,?, the word temple has to be wrong, because not in every temple you perform Sijood to Allah, a Masjid is a place where a believer perform Sijood to Allah, that is why it is on the wazn of Mafaal, i.e. Ism Makaan, i.e. the name of a place, i.e. its name is Masjid, if there is no English word for it (I mean if Mosque does not fit) then I recommend to leave it as Masjid
-> In fact according to the history records ( a very long story), some people built a mosque for that purpose (a sort of hypocrites) and wanted the prophet to pray in it (sort of promotion), that is what we are told the reason for revealing verse 107-108, that is why you read at the beginning of 108 an order to the prophet NOT TO PRAY IN THAT MOSQUE mentioned in 107 ? Do not maintain in it ever.?, I say the use of the word ?maintain? is not accurate because the literal meaning for the verb ?Taqum?, is ?Stand?, so it has to mean standing for the Salat, maintain the Salat does not fit the context. The Arabic word for maintain is ?Hafiz? and it was used in many other verses in conjunction with Salat, i.e. ?Hafizo Ala Al Salawat?, ?maintain the prayers? , what comes next is a new sentence, ? A temple that is founded on righteousness from the first day is more worthy that you maintain in it; in it are men who love to be cleansed. And God loves the cleansed.? again the use of the words temple & maintain has to be wrong, this sentence is very tight with the previous verse, warning and guidance, warning not to pray in a masjid like that (107) but he should pray in any masjid where it is founded on righteousness (10, I can?t see anything so far that conclusively suggest that we are talking about Al Masjid Al haram in Mecca other than this bit because Al Masjid Al Haram in Mecca was built on the Taqwa of Allah from day one by prophet Ibrahim in a valley where there was no plantation nor water unlike the flourished Jerusalem hill, and even if Al Masjid Al Haram in Mecca is used wrongly by the SA government, it is not used to divide the Muslims nor their wrong use makes it fake.
Using this understanding, I think they refer to a Temple that was built to emulate it - thus "do harm and cause rejection, and to divide between the believers, and as an outpost for those who fought God and His messenger before" - this might be the "kaaba" at Mecca (which also has many pagan symbols/rituals with it).
Might be or certainly is?, well, the Kabba is not a place to launch wars on Allah and His messenger, in fact Jerusalem is a place to launch wars against Allah and His messenger and sure wars were launched in there against Allah and His messneger, it is up to you if you want to follow conjectures but I promise you when I finish my refute to Layth article I will send you a copy and you will be the judge in counting the mistakes in it.
Again, this is just my understanding,
Regarding the Kabba issue, no it is not your understanding, you were only made to understand it that way and you just followed, yet you have no concrete evidence to what you follow so you are trying to play with the Quran verses to suit your doubtful desires, that is why what you said regarding 9107-108 was Tahrif the words from its intended places to suit your own doubtful desires.
I am well aware that many do agree and many don't agree with the whole theory itself and I respect that different people can see the same thing in different ways.
This is not about respect or disrespect between us the humans, this is about disrespect to Allah words, can?t you see that or what?
To me, this is whole issue not of real significance,
Of course it is of high significance, it seems you don?t comprehend what you are following which is simply 99% of Muslims are Mushrikoon and idol worshippers bound to hill
because either way they are both "rocks/stones".
I don?t get what you mean?, of course any Masjid which is a building must be built of stone, right?, do Muslim worship the Kabba as the Christians worship Jesus and other worship the sun? No they don?t.
The real objective of us all is to worship God alone and do good.
And you need to go to Al Masjid Al Haram to do just that if you can, it is written in the Quran, worshipping Allah alone is not by just saying it.
The small issues caused so much trouble in the past and they continue to do so today - I hereby apologize to anyone whom my understandings might seem offensive.
No offences of course it is all about confusion, your proposed understanding to 9107-108 most certainly will cause confusion to many young Muslims and I?m sure you will be held accountable by Allah for that, so I have to advice you to ?Itaqqi Allah brother?
Yes, we can be different and work together for an overall better community that tries its best to please God. )
May God Guide.
No we can?t be different regarding the basics of our religion as outlined in the Quran, please don?t give me that feel good religion attitude
Salam borther
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peace AB, good to see you still going strong bro , I hope you and your family in "Australia/Egypt" are fine. sun
peaceSalam mate
I'm really delighted to hear from you too, the family is great Al hamdullelah, wish you and your family the best
Take care
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Peace bro Nadeem (agentxxx), all,
You might find the following discussions by Ayman interesting and relevant to this topic
http//groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.islam/msg/41a51328bdca3c80?
http//groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.islam/msg/730fe6e654dd9242?
http//groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.islam/msg/51a91e7c64b57fb6?
http//groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.islam/msg/221ffb07a5dcb04b?
http//groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.islam/msg/ebe1e5f7b9e67f0e?
http//groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.islam/msg/170416c761b02771?
http//groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.islam/msg/45468e83c8d780b4?
http//groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.islam/msg/4a3c6d6a13f7df1c?
The complete discussion in which Ayman participated can be found at
http//groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.islam/browse_thread/thread/783540f26de114a0/2a42085a49ad9a9a?lnk=raot#2a42085a49ad9a9a
Please also see the following discussion on this forum
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=11105.0
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Peace all,
As far as "bakkah" is concerned, please see the following link for a discussion about "bibakkata" by brother Anwar
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=10079.msg54622#msg54622
Also see the following by Anwar (progod)
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7199.msg9648#msg9648
Brother Ayman agrees that "bakkah" is not a meaningless proper name per his following post
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13210.msg112175#msg112175
Thus 396 would be translated as
396 Truly the best/foremost house placed/established for people is "in a ranking above the rest"/"with much crowding"/"bibakkata"; blessed and a guidance for the worlds.
The location of the house is "DO NOT SET UP PARTNERS WITH THE GOD"
- And when we assigned to Ibrahim the house's place/location THAT DO NOT PARTNER WITH ME A THING, and cleanse my house for the passers by, and the remaining, and the humbly hearing and obeying.
The only requirements according to al-qur'aan for the "bayt"/house where "hajj" takes place are
- People do not set up any partners with The God at the location of the house/"bayt" (see 2226).
- It is a safe place where people can assemble without fearing oppression or persecution (see 2125).
Thus the "hajj" could be at any house established for The God where no partners are set up with The God, and where it is safe and secure for the people to assemble.
Please see the following for additional relevant info
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=10673.msg61263#msg61263
THERE IS NO QUR'AANIC EVIDENCE FOR HAJJ AT JERUSALEM OR MECCA. This is based on the misunderstanding of the COMMON NOUNS "BAKKATA" and "MAKKATA" as proper names. This is similar to the post qur'aanic hijacking of other common nouns from al-qur'aan and their usage as proper names, such as "masjid al-aqsa", "safa", "marwah", "kaaba" etc.
The original "hajj" during the Prophet's time could have been at Jerusalem or its vicinity, but the Qur'aan does not give any proper name locations for "hajj"; rather it gives us GENERAL CONCEPTS using which a "bayt" could be established for the purpose of "hajj" at any place which fulfills the criterion given by the Qur'aan as shown above.
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A link that was posted on here a while back
http//www.hinduism.co.za/kaabaa.htm
I could not recognize one single Arabic word, neither from what is claimed to be found in the kaaba, nor in the following paragraphs where the writer tries to relate some "Arabic" words to Hindu religion.
A research of such a low quality is just a waste of time to read. The only word I could recognize is the word "namaz", and even this is not Arabic, as the writer claims.
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Mister Oak is a known Hindu fundementalist, who tries hard to make everything to be off hindu origin. It is the classical "we feel weak, so we fight back by claimin all history".
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AhmadBahgat
Firstly, according to an article means nothing really, I was asking you about your own understanding to 9107-108, on the other hand Layth article is full of mistakes and I replied already to the first 2 parts and have shown severe mistakes and illogical events according to the article author, I stopped replying to it due to the fact that what I presented from the Quran was enough to refute it fair and square but it seems a lot of young Muslims get excited with the article then get dragged and drugged and just follow it blindly despite the non sense it, then try to do the same that those authors do, which is to manipulate many verses to justify their non sense, this is also what Rashad Khalifah did exactly btw his cult follower continue to do just that, and even this is what the sunnis do as all sects do for that matter.
very correct dear friend, this is actually what is happening, I realy appreciate your efforts, the reason i too am spending my time here. These half learned friends have become more dangerous for ISlam then the rigid enemies of Islam.
Quran
We appointed Abraham to establish the Shrine "You shall not idolize any other god beside Me, and purify My shrine for those who visit it, those who live near it, and those who bow and prostrate."And proclaim that the people shall observe Hajj pilgrimage. They will come to you walking or riding on various exhausted (means of transportation). They will come from the farthest locations."
This prophecy from the times of Muhammad till Present is only true for the shrine that is built in Mecca the "KAABA".
Offcourse people visit Jersualem and other shrines too, but in what numbers as compared to Mecca and according to any system as comapred to Mecca?
Please stop misguiding the younger generation.
Quote from Zidane seems out of context here.
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"And proclaim that the people shall observe Hajj pilgrimage. They will come to you walking or riding on various exhausted (means of transportation). They will come from the farthest locations."
This prophecy from the times of Muhammad till Present is only true for the shrine that is built in Mecca the "KAABA".
Raj-ah,
How is this prophecy true? Only "muslims", not the people, go to Mecca. Moreover, women are restricted unless accompanied by a mahram (?) -
Samia
Raj-ah,
How is this prophecy true? Only "muslims", not the people, go to Mecca. Moreover, women are restricted unless accompanied by a mahram (?)First of all "muslims" are people too
Women restricted?? Well I am not aware of any sort of command in Quran!
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Quran
We appointed Abraham to establish the Shrine "You shall not idolize any other god beside Me, and purify My shrine for those who visit it, those who live near it, and those who bow and prostrate."And proclaim that the people shall observe Hajj pilgrimage. They will come to you walking or riding on various exhausted (means of transportation). They will come from the farthest locations."
This prophecy from the times of Muhammad till Present is only true for the shrine that is built in Mecca the "KAABA".
Offcourse people visit Jersualem and other shrines too, but in what numbers as compared to Mecca and according to any system as comapred to Mecca?
Please stop misguiding the younger generation.
Quote from Zidane seems out of context here.
Salam dear brother
I was thinking about this verse the other day, thanks for bringing it in here, this is yet another compelling evidence that the fairy tale of Al Masjid Al Haram beng in Juresalem is nothing but dust in thin air promoted by a buch of ignorant
You are 100% right man regarding the people coming from every where when the Hajj time comes, this is what the verse also says "The Hajj Time", there is no Hajj time in Jerusalem, in another words no one calls us to do Hajj in Juresalem
Regarding the argument presented by another member trying hard to flaw the Hajj to Mecca, Al Nas means men and women, the member is trying to use the SA flaws controlling Al Masjid Haram to totally discredit its holy status following the Shaitan calls of course, yet no one of those non sense advocate provided a single compelling proof from the Quran, they come to us with weird and unfounded propositions, like Al Masjid Al Haram is a status in your head rotfl rotfl rotfl
Here is the word Al Nas meanning only the believers only, so the Tom and Jerry argument that the verse is not talking about the Muslims only (doing the Hajj) because is calls them Al Nas must be dismissed
And when it is said to them Believe as the people believe they say Shall we believe as the fools believe? Now surely they themselves are the fools, but they do not know.
(13)
-> See, " ", i.e. "as the people believe ", i.e. the word Al Nas can be used for the believers only as it can be used for all
http//free-islam.com/extraimages/slamdunk.gif
Take care bro
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First of all "muslims" are people too
Excatly informed brother
as you can see 213 is talking about the believers and called them Al Nas
Women restricted?? Well I am not aware of any sort of command in Quran!
That is a SA government law that is not sanctioned by Allah in His Quran as you just said
Take care mate
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Peace all,
We appointed Abraham to establish the Shrine "You shall not idolize any other god beside Me, and purify My shrine for those who visit it, those who live near it, and those who bow and prostrate.
"And proclaim that the people shall observe Hajj pilgrimage. They will come to you walking or riding on various exhausted (means of transportation). They will come from the farthest locations."
The above translation contains several errors. 2226 tells us about the "location" of the "bayt"/sanctuary/house, not establishing a "shrine". It clearly tells us that the location has the following criterion DO NOT SET UP PARTNERS WITH THE GOD. How can a black shrine full of idols be the location of the "bayt" ?
2227 tells us to call the people with "the hajj", not "the hajj pilgrimage" ! There is only one "hajj" in that verse. It does not say "alhajj alhajj".
There are many pagan shrines in the world that pagans perform a pilgrimage to, and they travel great distances to go to those shrines, walking and riding, but that does not make them the pure house per 2226 because they are full of idols. Also just because the majority goes to a location does not make it the right location, especially when the place is full of idols.
6116 And if you obey the majority of those on Earth they will lead you away from God's path; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.
Shouldn't those who are concerned with a particular location try to cleanse/purify it of all the idols it contains before they choose it as their hajj location as per 2226 ?
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peace brother tanveer,
thank you for the links . I haven't had the time to read them all.
brother ayman- However, we must pause here for a moment and ask some vital questions
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Since the pilgrimage was first called to by Abraham and was known by the prophets who came after him (e.g. Moses making an oath ? measured by the years of pilgrimage), then why are the so-called followers of Moses and Jesus (Jews & Nazarenes) unaware of the significance of Mecca or the need to visit the Temple there?
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If Mecca was the place where Abraham first raised the Shrine, then why do the Sunnis and Shia claim in their history that the prophet and his followers were facing Jerusalem in their daily Salat before switching to Mecca a few years later?
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If the Sunnis and Shia are fabricating the history of the Jerusalem qibla (focal point), then why is there physical evidence found in the form of a mosque with two qiblas located in Medina and dating back to the prophet?s time?
please will anyone explain?
Raj-ah- This prophecy from the times of Muhammad till Present is only true for the shrine that is built in Mecca the "KAABA".
Ok brother raj-ah fine!....but was this built by Ibrahim and his son? if so then i would like you to enlighten me by explaining this verse.
2846. And you were not on this side of the mountain when We called, but a mercy from your Lord that you may warn a people TO WHOM NO WARNER CAME BEFORE YOU, that they may be mindful.yesterday I heard on Geo TV that the prophet's mother was buried at Abwa a place 600 km from Mecca...where is Abwa? I couldn't find it on the Map...and can somebody explain the background of her death 600 km from Mecca?
peace
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I haven't heard such thing before I came to this forum that Kaaba wasn't built by the Abraham. Lots of innocent Muslims have different views about that Kaaba Sharif. But if someone can prove that it wasn't built by Abraham and Masjed Hiram is not that then I think it would be lot more interesting than code 19. Because as Christians beliefs revolve around crucifixion similarly the most important pillar of sunni/shia-Islam revolves around that building, literally and metaphorically.
May God guide us, Hamsa
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peace Hamsa,
if we look at this from a martian's point of view, the kaaba is just a building, and it could've been built by anyone. There's only one group that claims that Abraham built the kaaba, the Muslims, who also believe in a lot of crap. And because it's impossible to sort out the crap from the truth, we can come to the conclusion that no one knows when or how the Kaaba was built, and we can probably never know that.So how do we know whether it is God's house or just another pagan shrine? Well, we look at it and examine it. We know that it has pagan written all over it, and so does the hajj ritual, so I guess it must be a pagan shrine built by pagans.