Who built the kaaba that is in Mecca?
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Peace bro Nadeem (agentxxx), all,
You might find the following discussions by Ayman interesting and relevant to this topic
http//groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.islam/msg/41a51328bdca3c80?
http//groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.islam/msg/730fe6e654dd9242?
http//groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.islam/msg/51a91e7c64b57fb6?
http//groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.islam/msg/221ffb07a5dcb04b?
http//groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.islam/msg/ebe1e5f7b9e67f0e?
http//groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.islam/msg/170416c761b02771?
http//groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.islam/msg/45468e83c8d780b4?
http//groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.islam/msg/4a3c6d6a13f7df1c?
The complete discussion in which Ayman participated can be found at
http//groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.islam/browse_thread/thread/783540f26de114a0/2a42085a49ad9a9a?lnk=raot#2a42085a49ad9a9a
Please also see the following discussion on this forum
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=11105.0
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Peace all,
As far as "bakkah" is concerned, please see the following link for a discussion about "bibakkata" by brother Anwar
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=10079.msg54622#msg54622
Also see the following by Anwar (progod)
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7199.msg9648#msg9648
Brother Ayman agrees that "bakkah" is not a meaningless proper name per his following post
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13210.msg112175#msg112175
Thus 396 would be translated as
396 Truly the best/foremost house placed/established for people is "in a ranking above the rest"/"with much crowding"/"bibakkata"; blessed and a guidance for the worlds.
The location of the house is "DO NOT SET UP PARTNERS WITH THE GOD"
- And when we assigned to Ibrahim the house's place/location THAT DO NOT PARTNER WITH ME A THING, and cleanse my house for the passers by, and the remaining, and the humbly hearing and obeying.
The only requirements according to al-qur'aan for the "bayt"/house where "hajj" takes place are
- People do not set up any partners with The God at the location of the house/"bayt" (see 2226).
- It is a safe place where people can assemble without fearing oppression or persecution (see 2125).
Thus the "hajj" could be at any house established for The God where no partners are set up with The God, and where it is safe and secure for the people to assemble.
Please see the following for additional relevant info
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=10673.msg61263#msg61263
THERE IS NO QUR'AANIC EVIDENCE FOR HAJJ AT JERUSALEM OR MECCA. This is based on the misunderstanding of the COMMON NOUNS "BAKKATA" and "MAKKATA" as proper names. This is similar to the post qur'aanic hijacking of other common nouns from al-qur'aan and their usage as proper names, such as "masjid al-aqsa", "safa", "marwah", "kaaba" etc.
The original "hajj" during the Prophet's time could have been at Jerusalem or its vicinity, but the Qur'aan does not give any proper name locations for "hajj"; rather it gives us GENERAL CONCEPTS using which a "bayt" could be established for the purpose of "hajj" at any place which fulfills the criterion given by the Qur'aan as shown above.
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A link that was posted on here a while back
http//www.hinduism.co.za/kaabaa.htm
I could not recognize one single Arabic word, neither from what is claimed to be found in the kaaba, nor in the following paragraphs where the writer tries to relate some "Arabic" words to Hindu religion.
A research of such a low quality is just a waste of time to read. The only word I could recognize is the word "namaz", and even this is not Arabic, as the writer claims.
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Mister Oak is a known Hindu fundementalist, who tries hard to make everything to be off hindu origin. It is the classical "we feel weak, so we fight back by claimin all history".
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AhmadBahgat
Firstly, according to an article means nothing really, I was asking you about your own understanding to 9107-108, on the other hand Layth article is full of mistakes and I replied already to the first 2 parts and have shown severe mistakes and illogical events according to the article author, I stopped replying to it due to the fact that what I presented from the Quran was enough to refute it fair and square but it seems a lot of young Muslims get excited with the article then get dragged and drugged and just follow it blindly despite the non sense it, then try to do the same that those authors do, which is to manipulate many verses to justify their non sense, this is also what Rashad Khalifah did exactly btw his cult follower continue to do just that, and even this is what the sunnis do as all sects do for that matter.
very correct dear friend, this is actually what is happening, I realy appreciate your efforts, the reason i too am spending my time here. These half learned friends have become more dangerous for ISlam then the rigid enemies of Islam.
Quran
We appointed Abraham to establish the Shrine "You shall not idolize any other god beside Me, and purify My shrine for those who visit it, those who live near it, and those who bow and prostrate."And proclaim that the people shall observe Hajj pilgrimage. They will come to you walking or riding on various exhausted (means of transportation). They will come from the farthest locations."
This prophecy from the times of Muhammad till Present is only true for the shrine that is built in Mecca the "KAABA".
Offcourse people visit Jersualem and other shrines too, but in what numbers as compared to Mecca and according to any system as comapred to Mecca?
Please stop misguiding the younger generation.
Quote from Zidane seems out of context here.
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"And proclaim that the people shall observe Hajj pilgrimage. They will come to you walking or riding on various exhausted (means of transportation). They will come from the farthest locations."
This prophecy from the times of Muhammad till Present is only true for the shrine that is built in Mecca the "KAABA".
Raj-ah,
How is this prophecy true? Only "muslims", not the people, go to Mecca. Moreover, women are restricted unless accompanied by a mahram (?) -
Samia
Raj-ah,
How is this prophecy true? Only "muslims", not the people, go to Mecca. Moreover, women are restricted unless accompanied by a mahram (?)First of all "muslims" are people too
Women restricted?? Well I am not aware of any sort of command in Quran!
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Quran
We appointed Abraham to establish the Shrine "You shall not idolize any other god beside Me, and purify My shrine for those who visit it, those who live near it, and those who bow and prostrate."And proclaim that the people shall observe Hajj pilgrimage. They will come to you walking or riding on various exhausted (means of transportation). They will come from the farthest locations."
This prophecy from the times of Muhammad till Present is only true for the shrine that is built in Mecca the "KAABA".
Offcourse people visit Jersualem and other shrines too, but in what numbers as compared to Mecca and according to any system as comapred to Mecca?
Please stop misguiding the younger generation.
Quote from Zidane seems out of context here.
Salam dear brother
I was thinking about this verse the other day, thanks for bringing it in here, this is yet another compelling evidence that the fairy tale of Al Masjid Al Haram beng in Juresalem is nothing but dust in thin air promoted by a buch of ignorant
You are 100% right man regarding the people coming from every where when the Hajj time comes, this is what the verse also says "The Hajj Time", there is no Hajj time in Jerusalem, in another words no one calls us to do Hajj in Juresalem
Regarding the argument presented by another member trying hard to flaw the Hajj to Mecca, Al Nas means men and women, the member is trying to use the SA flaws controlling Al Masjid Haram to totally discredit its holy status following the Shaitan calls of course, yet no one of those non sense advocate provided a single compelling proof from the Quran, they come to us with weird and unfounded propositions, like Al Masjid Al Haram is a status in your head rotfl rotfl rotfl
Here is the word Al Nas meanning only the believers only, so the Tom and Jerry argument that the verse is not talking about the Muslims only (doing the Hajj) because is calls them Al Nas must be dismissed
And when it is said to them Believe as the people believe they say Shall we believe as the fools believe? Now surely they themselves are the fools, but they do not know.
(13)
-> See, " ", i.e. "as the people believe ", i.e. the word Al Nas can be used for the believers only as it can be used for all
http//free-islam.com/extraimages/slamdunk.gif
Take care bro
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First of all "muslims" are people too
Excatly informed brother
as you can see 213 is talking about the believers and called them Al Nas
Women restricted?? Well I am not aware of any sort of command in Quran!
That is a SA government law that is not sanctioned by Allah in His Quran as you just said
Take care mate
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Peace all,
We appointed Abraham to establish the Shrine "You shall not idolize any other god beside Me, and purify My shrine for those who visit it, those who live near it, and those who bow and prostrate.
"And proclaim that the people shall observe Hajj pilgrimage. They will come to you walking or riding on various exhausted (means of transportation). They will come from the farthest locations."
The above translation contains several errors. 2226 tells us about the "location" of the "bayt"/sanctuary/house, not establishing a "shrine". It clearly tells us that the location has the following criterion DO NOT SET UP PARTNERS WITH THE GOD. How can a black shrine full of idols be the location of the "bayt" ?
2227 tells us to call the people with "the hajj", not "the hajj pilgrimage" ! There is only one "hajj" in that verse. It does not say "alhajj alhajj".
There are many pagan shrines in the world that pagans perform a pilgrimage to, and they travel great distances to go to those shrines, walking and riding, but that does not make them the pure house per 2226 because they are full of idols. Also just because the majority goes to a location does not make it the right location, especially when the place is full of idols.
6116 And if you obey the majority of those on Earth they will lead you away from God's path; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.
Shouldn't those who are concerned with a particular location try to cleanse/purify it of all the idols it contains before they choose it as their hajj location as per 2226 ?
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peace brother tanveer,
thank you for the links . I haven't had the time to read them all.
brother ayman- However, we must pause here for a moment and ask some vital questions
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Since the pilgrimage was first called to by Abraham and was known by the prophets who came after him (e.g. Moses making an oath ? measured by the years of pilgrimage), then why are the so-called followers of Moses and Jesus (Jews & Nazarenes) unaware of the significance of Mecca or the need to visit the Temple there?
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If Mecca was the place where Abraham first raised the Shrine, then why do the Sunnis and Shia claim in their history that the prophet and his followers were facing Jerusalem in their daily Salat before switching to Mecca a few years later?
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If the Sunnis and Shia are fabricating the history of the Jerusalem qibla (focal point), then why is there physical evidence found in the form of a mosque with two qiblas located in Medina and dating back to the prophet?s time?
please will anyone explain?
Raj-ah- This prophecy from the times of Muhammad till Present is only true for the shrine that is built in Mecca the "KAABA".
Ok brother raj-ah fine!....but was this built by Ibrahim and his son? if so then i would like you to enlighten me by explaining this verse.
2846. And you were not on this side of the mountain when We called, but a mercy from your Lord that you may warn a people TO WHOM NO WARNER CAME BEFORE YOU, that they may be mindful.yesterday I heard on Geo TV that the prophet's mother was buried at Abwa a place 600 km from Mecca...where is Abwa? I couldn't find it on the Map...and can somebody explain the background of her death 600 km from Mecca?
peace
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I haven't heard such thing before I came to this forum that Kaaba wasn't built by the Abraham. Lots of innocent Muslims have different views about that Kaaba Sharif. But if someone can prove that it wasn't built by Abraham and Masjed Hiram is not that then I think it would be lot more interesting than code 19. Because as Christians beliefs revolve around crucifixion similarly the most important pillar of sunni/shia-Islam revolves around that building, literally and metaphorically.
May God guide us, Hamsa
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peace Hamsa,
if we look at this from a martian's point of view, the kaaba is just a building, and it could've been built by anyone. There's only one group that claims that Abraham built the kaaba, the Muslims, who also believe in a lot of crap. And because it's impossible to sort out the crap from the truth, we can come to the conclusion that no one knows when or how the Kaaba was built, and we can probably never know that.So how do we know whether it is God's house or just another pagan shrine? Well, we look at it and examine it. We know that it has pagan written all over it, and so does the hajj ritual, so I guess it must be a pagan shrine built by pagans.
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Samia
First of all "muslims" are people tooWomen restricted?? Well I am not aware of any sort of command in Quran!
Raj-ah
This is not valid logic! If I say everyone should come in, and only females came in, that means they did not understand my command, or they do not care about it. Similarly, Christians, Jews, infidels, Hindus...etc are also people, so why only muslims, among all the people, are allowed?
As for women being restricted, of course you are not aware of anything like that in the quraan, and you are right. I was not talking about what quraan commands, because that's not what's going on in the so-called-pilgrimage, I was talking about what the "pilgrimage" taking place in S.A commands.
Actually, it is all against the commands of God. Therefore, no prophecy came true.Are you aware that women are restricted from performing hajj without being accompanied by a mahram? Just go to any site of a S.A embassy and look at visa requirements for hajj for females.
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Tanveer wrote
The above translation contains several errors. 2226 tells us about the "location" of the "bayt"/sanctuary/house, not establishing a "shrine". It clearly tells us that the location has the following criterion DO NOT SET UP PARTNERS WITH THE GOD. How can a black shrine full of idols be the location of the "bayt" ?
Several errors?
Ok! then what is your translation for it?
Is Kaaba a black shrine??
Why do you call it a Black Shrine??
Are you talking about the stone?
The stone is a dark reddish brown color and its diameter is about 12 inches (30.5 centimeters).
Are their any Idols in it?
Please can you answer and improve our knowldge!Tanveer
2227 tells us to call the people with "the hajj", not "the hajj pilgrimage" ! There is only one "hajj" in that verse. It does not say "alhajj alhajj".
There are many pagan shrines in the world that pagans perform a pilgrimage to, and they travel great distances to go to those shrines, walking and riding, but that does not make them the pure house per 2226 because they are full of idols. Also just because the majority goes to a location does not make it the right location, especially when the place is full of idols
Despite lot of differences in our opnion I still respect your views, but these one I think are made in hurry.
Yes that does not make them pure house becuase they are full of idols, so this is what I am saying; what is your point?
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Samia wrote
Raj-ah
This is not valid logic! If I say everyone should come in, and only females came in, that means they did not understand my command, or they do not care about it. Similarly, Christians, Jews, infidels, Hindus...etc are also people, so why only muslims, among all the people, are allowed?
As for women being restricted, of course you are not aware of anything like that in the quraan, and you are right. I was not talking about what quraan commands, because that's not what's going on in the so-called-pilgrimage, I was talking about what the "pilgrimage" taking place in S.A commands.
Actually, it is all against the commands of God. Therefore, no prophecy came true.Are you aware that women are restricted from performing hajj without being accompanied by a mahram? Just go to any site of a S.A embassy and look at visa requirements for hajj for females.
Please read carefully what AhmedBahgat posted, it can't be more simple!
I guess you understand the difference between Allah and Saudi Government?
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Samia wrote
Please read carefully what AhmedBahgat posted, it can't be more simple!What Ahmed posted does not answer my question.
I guess you understand the difference between Allah and Saudi Government?
I do. Do you?
Do you believe the Saudis are making the prophecy come true? -
Agentxxx
Quote
Raj-ah- This prophecy from the times of Muhammad till Present is only true for the shrine that is built in Mecca the "KAABA".
Ok brother raj-ah fine!....but was this built by Ibrahim and his son? if so then i would like you to enlighten me by explaining this verse.
2846. And you were not on this side of the mountain when We called, but a mercy from your Lord that you may warn a people TO WHOM NO WARNER CAME BEFORE YOU, that they may be mindful.yesterday I heard on Geo TV that the prophet's mother was buried at Abwa a place 600 km from Mecca...where is Abwa? I couldn't find it on the Map...and can somebody explain the background of her death 600 km from Mecca?
Regarding Geo TV, do you think it is an authenticated source?
Qur?an lays stress on the religion of Ibrahim, presenting Islam as a return to the purity of the religion of Ibrahim which, obscured by Judaism and Christianity, shone forth in its original brightness in the Qur?an. The pilgrimage?s to the Ka?aba and ritual progressions around the building were continued after Muhammad cleaned it from idols but now for the glorification of One God. The Abrahimic vision of the Ka?aba created a means of discerning an orthodox origin buried in the midst of pagan malpractices to which the first muslims pointed the way.
Quran
Then we inspired you (Muhammad) to follow the religion of Abraham, the monotheist; he never was an idol worshiper.Those who received the scripture, and know it as it should be known, will believe in this. As for those who disbelieve, they are the losers.
We have rendered the shrine (the Ka`aba) a focal point/model for the people, and a safe sanctuary. You may use Abraham's shrine as a prayer house. We commissioned Abraham and Ismail "You shall purify My house for those who visit, those who live there, and those who bow and prostrate."
It says that Abraham and Ismail were ordered by Allah to purify this house and not to built for the first time but may be rebuilt or rennovate, meaning that this house existed before them.
So my understanding is that this building existed before Abraham and Ismail and they only purified it by removing idols etc.
But regarding the question is this the same building which is in Mecca, YES as the Quran clearly tells us
We appointed Abraham to establish the Shrine "You shall not idolize any other god beside Me, and purify My shrine for those who visit it, those who live near it, and those who bow and prostrate.
Allah appointed Abraham to establish the shrine on basis that we should not idolize any other god besides Allah and not on the basis it existed before.
Another translation
And when We assigned to Ibrahim the place of the House, saying Do not associate with Me aught, and purify My House for those who make the circuit and stand to pray and bow and prostrate themselves.Prophecy
And proclaim that the people shall observe Hajj pilgrimage. They will come to you walking or riding on various exhausted (means of transportation). They will come from the farthest locations."Mecca is the only place where People come for HAJJ from all over the world from farthest places in an organized manner, Mecca is the only place where this practice is carried out for last 1500 years every year without any break.
No other place in the world is there we people go for Hajj or are called for Hajj.Hajj shall be observed in the specified months. Whoever sets out to observe Hajj shall refrain from sexual intercourse, misconduct, and arguments throughout Hajj. Whatever good you do, GOD is fully aware thereof. As you prepare your provisions for the journey, the best provision is righteousness. You shall observe Me, O you who possess intelligence.
Only in Mecca people go for Hajj in specific months, and refrain from Sexual intercourse and misconduct. Where else do people go for Hajj in specified months refraining from Sex etc.?
You shall observe the complete rites of Hajj and
Umrah for GOD. If you are prevented, you shall send an offering, and do not resume cutting your hair until your offering has reached its destination. If you are ill, or suffering a head injury (and you must cut your hair), you shall expiate by fasting, or giving to charity, or some other form of worship. During the normal Hajj, if you break the state of Ihraam (sanctity) betweenUmrah and Hajj, you shall expiate by offering an animal sacrifice. If you cannot afford it, you shall fast three days during Hajj and seven when you return home - this completes ten - provided you do not live at the Sacred Masjid. You shall observe GOD, and know that GOD is strict in enforcing retributionWhere else do people stop cutting their hairs until sacrifice of the animal is done? Where else do people during HAjj offer Kafara in the shape of Fasting during HAjj??
You commit no error by seeking provisions from your Lord (through commerce). When you file from `Arafaat, you shall commemorate GOD at the Sacred Location (of Muzdalifah). You shall commemorate Him for guiding you; before this, you had gone astray.
Where else do in the world we see trading during Hajj season, and the place Arafat?
If all these things mentioned in Quran combined happen some where else other then Mecca, Then is the case of those who impressed by Jewish and Christian missionaries propoganda say that Kaaba is not the place Abraham was assigned to purify.
Further proof for Abraham and ISmail rebuilding KAaba
A line in the Book of Jubilees (2013) mentions that the descendants of Abraham's son by Hagar, Ishmael, as well as his descendants by Keturah, became the "Arabians" or "Arabs". The 1st century Jewish historian Josephus similarly described the descendants of Ishmael (i.e. the Ishmaelites) as an "Arabian" people. He also calls Ishmael the "founder" (ς of the "Arabians". Some Biblical scholars also believe that the area outlined in Genesis as the final destination of Ishmael and his descendants ("from Havilah to Assyria" refers to the Arabian peninsula. This has led to a commonplace view that modern Semitic-speaking Arabs are descended from Abraham via Ishmael, in addition to various other tribes who intermixed with the Ishmaelites, such as Joktan, Sheba, Dedan, Broham, etc. Both Judeo-Christian and Islamic traditions speak of earlier inhabitants of Arabia.
Abraham?s son Ishmael was a teenager when he and his mother were sent away by Sarah to live on their own (Genesis 16 &17)
Meccans who were known for memorizing and repeating the family tree and praising renknown members of the family tree have provided us with the tree which leads from Muhammad to Ismail.