Who built the kaaba that is in Mecca?
-
Salaam
After another long discussion on this subject I like to add my humble opinion on this and highlight the contradictions between traditional explanations and the quraan.
Abraham did not build a House. He raised the foundation from the house with Ishmael. According to 396 the house is the first house appointed/raised/established for mankind; the house was already there.
The Quraan does not say Mecca is a city neither does it place the Messenger of Allah in this location 1400 years ago. The makkata in the Quraan is highly disputed.
The Quraan does not say bakkata and makkata are same. Neither there is any evidence for these claims.
There can be so many uncultivable valleys surrounding where Abraham lived. The Quraan does not say the uncultivable valley is modern day mecca, S.A.
Also what we have in Mecca is not a cube but a trapezoid. People have attempted to make it look like a cube but shame on their plans kaaba does not mean cube according to the Quraan. The Quraan does not identify the cubic structure in S.A as the Kaaba or the house.
The traditional explanation says mosque around the cubic structure in mecca S.A. is al masjid al haram and to stand facing this mosque when you do salat. But the Quraan does not mention to do this in the salat. The tradionalist will then change their stance and say face the cubic structure. They do not waste a wink thinking why the Quraan does not say face the Kaaba or house while in Salat.
The Quraan says hajj is to the house. But the tradionalist hajj is actually to the mosque around the cube because no pilgrim enters the cube which they call the ?house of god? except the privileged. The Bible locates the house in Jerusalem, Palestine.
Umra can not mean short pilgrimage or off season pilgrimage.
The tradionalist can not tell us the reason for calling the cubic structure as the forbidden house? Neither can they tell us why the house is called the kaaba ( especially when it is not a cube) or how to raise the foundation from this house.
Safaa and Marwa are not identified as two hills in S.A. and The quaran does not identify a lady running between 2 hills in mecca S.A. 5000 years ago looking for water and does not ask us to imitate her.
Arafat is not identified as a location in S.A. in the Quraan neither is mina, jamrath and musdalifa.
None of the theories and arguments presented in these discussions has offered a plausible solution to the above contradictions or without giving rise to new or further contradictions. So I suggest we pray " Our Lord, Increase us in knowledge" and study the Quraan further
Note
A sample article from the ?Encyclopaedia of the Qurn? at Brill Online. The article deals with some important aspects of the modern day hajj and its contradictions. Find the article at http//www.brillonline.nl/public/pilgrimage#content#content
The article, Normative Communitas and the Struggle for Religious Legitimacy in Pilgrimages to the Second Temple by Dr. Jackie Feldman on the ancient Jewish pilgrimage to the Temple brings out many similarities to the Hajj in the Quraan and the ancient Jewish pilgrimage.
Find the full article at the following link
www.netours.com/jrs/2003/forum/off-track/pilgrimage-2nd-Temple1.htm
peace warner, Good points.
peace
-
AOA Rajah
Like you waiting for an answer whether in N. Arabia or anywhere. I thought Arabia meant Arabia and anywhere meant hmm! anywhere. Also waiting for link of the debate between Mr. Saifullah and Ayman.
It is for each person to decide for themselves as to who is exactly out of their depth here. All I know is that in a discusion when an individual starts to insult his opponent it mean they are usually out of their depth and cannot respond logically or factually and the insults are simply to sidetrack the debate in order to hide a lost argument.
regard -
Peace Rajah,
AymanYou did not dear Ayman, I have answered them all and I will repost them.
Dear Rajah, I am not going to go into a childish "did not and did too" back and forth with you. Just read carefully and check what I posted and then what you quoted and answered. You didn't even quote or answer each of my points from yesterday's post, let alone from June 13.
I think you are being cornered because you had issued two statements which are quite different from each other, which tells us that You are confused and not confident about your Argument.
It is better to be confused and non-confident than confused and confident.
2226 is not a confusing passage. It is very clear. Thus, I am confident in the god when he clearly told us the location of the house in 2226. I am confident that he gave us all the info that we need. You are free to believe 2226 or not. My sincere advice to you is to ponder on it and then decide if you want to put your confidence in the god and let him guide you or if you are going to say "nah, I know better and Mecca is the location".
According to you since requirements of what Allah has said are not fullfilled, CHANGE THE HOUSE.
You continously trying to degrade me, depicts your Arrogant attitude and when Arrogancy with Ignorancy combines it produsces a classic like you.
You are well aware that your theory of Prophet being in Northren Arabia is just a fiction and lie, and has not even gained any ground at intial level to say on Scholars level.Galileo's theories didn't gain any ground or acceptance either. It won't be long before Sira goes the same natural way as Hadith. The Ahl Al-Hadith Society are already rapidly joining the likes of the Flat Earth Society.
You said that I donot understand the meaning of "Mutually exclusively" Ok Wiki says this
In logic, two mutually exclusive (or "mutual exclusive" according to some sources) propositions are propositions that logically cannot both be true. To say that more than two propositions are mutually exclusive may, depending on context mean that no two of them can both be true, or only that they cannot all be true. The term pairwise mutually exclusive always means no two of them can both be true.
And you said these two statements are "NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE", now if you can explain it without being Arrogant I will be thank full."The house can be anywhere" and "the house was at one point in Northern Arabia" (one of those "anywhere" locations) are not mutually exclusive statements. This means that one statement being true doesn't make the other false. So, both can be true.
Therefore I asked you a question, which as usual you did not answered
When did the House was changed from "Northren Arabia"? who ordered its change?The location where the house can be established has never changed and it always has been the same as in 2226 (anywhere partners are not setup with the god). This never changed and never will. The god cares more about this principle than about a piece of real estate.
If it is still there then why from last fifteen hundred years no Muslim goes there for Hajj which is duty imposed on every Muslim (capable of) by Allah?
Clearly, it is not there now and hasn't been there probably since shortly after the prophet's time since all the countries and towns in that area have idol-worship going on and they don't allow all people to safely assemble.
Instead I got your quote from else where
Ok, even for a while if we take your translation of 397 to be correct, still the question arises WHY CHANGE THE HOUSE? let us say it is not fullfilling the requirements of the House and some corruption has occured, then shall we remove the corruption or change the HOUSE OF ALLAH, which you admitted is in NORTHREN ARABIA, who ordered to change the house of Allah without Allah's permission? If you have any verse which clear cut tells us that "If some corruption arises in the rituals performed at the house, change and place my house ANYWHERE?If you believe that 2226 is the absolute truth regardless of what humans do then you should know the answer. Corruption makes the place not the house of the god anymore. It is not about someone putting a sign on a building saying "Welcome to the House of Allah" while there are idols inside it. It is about the principle.
Ayman you are playing on a weak wicket.
I don't know what this means.
Again playing out of senses, If it is ANYWHERE then why Allah gave a specific loaction for it to prophet somwhere in the Northren Arabia (where there is a Market;WOW)?
AymanI have answered it in one of my previous posts in detail. Correct they have to call All the People, but the person intrested and perform it with heart will be only person who "surrenders" and becomes Muslim.
They do? some functions to you are idolatry and to them not, we should tell them and educate them according to Quran. That does not means necessarily we CHANGE the HOUSE without any Clear order from Allah, as I had mentioned before.The clear identification of the location of the house by the god in 2226 automatically makes a place "not the house" by virtue of having idolatry. This is, of course, if you have confidence in the god's words in 2226.
Another example of your being cornered is the type of arguments you are presenting, I would like to for making the record straight; point out from your last two posts only the Fallacy of Adhominem, which tells us who and what you are?
Rajah, I don't think that you understand what Adhominem is (by the way, this is not Adhominem since there are many very nice people who don't understand it either).
Judging by all the logical fallacies that you keep using,
This is a fact and I pointed the fallacies to you. I know many very nice people who use fallacious arguments. This is not an attack on the person.
? not mutually exclusive statements" is so hard for you to understand.
This is a fact. Indeed you did not understand what mutually exclusive means. There are many nice people who don't understand what mutually exclusive means. It is not an insult when I said that you don't. Generally, it helps to understand what you are arguing against. So at least what I said, got you interested in looking it up.
Don't you think that the god is free to make his house anywhere? If you answer yes then you agree that "the house can be anywhere". If you answer no, then you have bigger problems to worry about then trying to convert people on this forum who used to Sunnis back to Sunni
Where is the personal attack? I gave you good advice.
Judging by all your fallacious arguments so far and you not knowing the difference between physical archeological evidence and hearsay stories, I would say that you are already way out of your depth. My advice to you is to learn the basics objectively before you sink deeper.
Before parading your ignorance on this forum of the difference between the verifiable physical evidence of inscriptions and manuscripts and the unverifiable hearsay stories of so-called Islamic history, you should study and read carefully. The inscriptions and manuscripts date to PRE-QURANIC TIMES and were studied in 2000 and 2001. As I said, you are way out of your depth
Again, you are demonstrating your ignorance between physical archeological evidence and hearsay. It is an indisputable fact that Arabic or Non-Arabic and Islamic or Non-Islamic physical archeological evidence is much more reliable than hearsay, no matter how much that hearsay is supposedly "Islamic".Rajah, you can easily prove me wrong by telling everyone here what you think is the difference between archeological evidence and hearsay.
Using your nonsensical approach, Saudis can claim that they actually invented pasta and hence it is called "Mecca-roni".
Rajah, you are the one who brought Ptolemy into the discussions. Then you are the one who attacked him when you realized that he actually discredits Mecca. What kind of an approach is this? I didn't attack you personally. I attacked your approach. Again, there are a lot of nice people who don't have a good approach when it comes to certain issues. Also, you have to admit that Mecca-roni is a good analogy.
Now that you learned what negative proof is, you changed your argument. At least, you are getting a good schooling in logic out of this discussion. As I said, Rajah, you are way out of your depth, especially given your arrogant attitude. I suggest that you take a more humble attitude and try to learn.
I admit that calling your attitude arrogant is borderline Adhominem but I also gave you good advice. What is wrong with learning?
It means "target". So now you know the meaning.
Where is the insult here? You asked me to tell you what "qiblah" means and I told you. Did you already know the meaning and hence were you not sincere in your question?
Mr. Saifullah makes ridiculous statements such as the following
One almost feels sorry for Mr. Saifullah making laughable argumentsMany nice people make ridiculous statements and laughable arguments. You have to admit that saying that "Mecca is the only place that has a cube" ranks pretty high amongst such arguments. I am sure that you can find an object somewhere in your house which is more of a cube than the so-called Kaaba in Mecca (which is not even truly a cube).
Present post
because you don't know what the term "mutually exclusive" means
It is not my problem that you don't know what "mutually exclusive" means. Look it up.I stated an observation and gave you good advice. You took my advice and now we can both progress instead of being stuck on a misunderstood point.
Just do a Google search on SRI to see Mr. Saifullah's nonsensical circular arguments of defending hearsay based on more hearsay. You will have to go about four years back.
If you think that hearsay is a dirty Adhominem word then don't base your arguments on it.
As I said, you are way out of your depth and the more you try to pretend to be a knowledgeable person by copying and pasting info from others, the more you inadvertently disprove your own arguments because you don't read intelligently what you are copying and pasting and study the background behind it. We saw this with the pieces that you copied and pasted about Ptolemy, etc. and now we can see the same thing with your copied and pasted paragraph on Arabic inscriptions. It is ironic that people here who don't have faith in Mecca know more about it and the issues around it than you.
My sincere advice to you is that if you are going to have faith in something and defend it then instead of wasting everyone's time, you should be the most knowledgeable about it. So do your own research and do not just blindly copy and paste.Did you not copy and paste pretty much all your so-called evidence from others?
I gave you good sincere advice.
Yes as you are the most knowldgeable person who is not sure about what he is talking about? weather it is Anywhere or In Northren Arabia?
I am sure that 2226 is the absolute truth no matter what people do.
another classic from his debate, this tells us he is habitual of making such statements.
If it was taken directly from Edward Gibbons then Gibbons is either a
babbling fool or is a poor writer who is unable to express his ideas correctlyI admit that I was a little hard on Gibbons. However, he does need to choose his words carefully because as you saw some people have built their entire arguments for the historicity of Mecca on his careless statements. This tells you that they have nothing else.
When you start attacking your opponent personally rather by arguments what does it means? remember this is only one kind of Fallacy pointed out in some of your posts.
Rajah, you seem to be an over-sensitive person who takes things too personally instead of focusing on the issues.
So you are avoiding to provide the link, there is some thing Black in the "DAAL" right Agent XXX? No problem we will google it , Well I see no direct debate between you and Saif on the issue at hand. There is one, but that actually is your bashing by DENIS GIRON and others on the topic and that even is not direct debate.
Rajah, if you are going to ask for something that requires me spending some of my time to do a search on your behalf and get you the info on a golden platter, then you should at least be nice about it.
At any rate, as I said, you have to go about 4 years back
http//groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.islam/browse_frm/thread/75aae4a889a0c494/
In the course of the debate, we discussed Hadiths about "qiblah"/target. As you can see, Mr. Saifullah was defending Hadiths that say that when we defecate or urinate we should not face the so-called Qiblah but face the east or the west. Those Hadiths clearly make fun of the god and of passages such as 2115 that say "to the god belongs the east and the west". Of course, Mr. Saifullah was too busy defending his hearsay with more hearsay and didn't care about the content or validating it against the great reading. It is a waste of time to continue a debate when it is clear that the opponent doesn't even care about what the god is saying.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace,
I read that debate way back when I newly joined this forum. I have to say, "Saifullah" was clearly not defending his position well (put tactfully ). That place had some more debates which were quite informative to read btw, strangely most of the good ones involved bro Ayman. Sometimes the debates were downright out for blood I noticed! Fun.
-
009.107
YUSUFALI And there are those who put up a mosque by way of mischief and infidelity - to disunite the Believers - and in preparation for one who warred against Allah and His Messenger aforetime. They will indeed swear that their intention is nothing but good; But Allah doth declare that they are certainly liars.
PICKTHAL And as for those who chose a place of worship out of opposition and disbelief, and in order to cause dissent among the believers, and as an outpost for those who warred against Allah and His messenger aforetime, they will surely swear We purposed naught save good. Allah beareth witness that they verily are liars.
SHAKIR And those who built a masjid to cause harm and for unbelief and to cause disunion among the believers and an ambush to him who made war against Allah and His Messenger before; and they will certainly swear We did not desire aught but good; and Allah bears witness that they are most surely liars.009.108
YUSUFALI Never stand thou forth therein. There is a mosque whose foundation was laid from the first day on piety; it is more worthy of the standing forth (for prayer) therein. In it are men who love to be purified; and Allah loveth those who make themselves pure.
PICKTHAL Never stand (to pray) there. A place of worship which was found upon duty (to Allah) from the first day is more worthy that thou shouldst stand (to pray) therein, wherein are men who love to purify themselves. Allah loveth the purifiers.
SHAKIR Never stand in it; certainly a masjid founded on piety from the very first day is more deserving that you should stand in it; in it are men who love that they should be purified; and Allah loves those who purify themselves.009.109
YUSUFALI Which then is best? - he that layeth his foundation on piety to Allah and His good pleasure? - or he that layeth his foundation on an undermined sand-cliff ready to crumble to pieces? and it doth crumble to pieces with him, into the fire of Hell. And Allah guideth not people that do wrong.
PICKTHAL Is he who founded his building upon duty to Allah and His good pleasure better; or he who founded his building on the brink of a crumbling, overhanging precipice so that it toppled with him into the fire of hell? Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.
SHAKIR Is he, therefore, better who lays his foundation on fear of Allah and (His) good pleasure, or he who lays his foundation on the edge of a cracking hollowed bank, so it broke down with him into the fire of hell; and Allah does not guide the unjust people.009.110
YUSUFALI The foundation of those who so build is never free from suspicion and shakiness in their hearts, until their hearts are cut to pieces. And Allah is All-Knowing, Wise.
PICKTHAL The building which they built will never cease to be a misgiving in their hearts unless their hearts be torn to pieces. Allah is Knower, Wise.
SHAKIR The building which they have built will ever continue to be a source of disquiet in their hearts, except that their hearts get cut into pieces; and Allah is Knowing, Wise.009.111
YUSUFALI Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise) they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded that is the achievement supreme.
PICKTHAL Lo! Allah hath bought from the believers their lives and their wealth because the Garden will be theirs they shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain. It is a promise which is binding on Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an. Who fulfilleth His covenant better than Allah? Rejoice then in your bargain that ye have made, for that is the supreme triumph.
SHAKIR Surely Allah has bought of the believers their persons and their property for this, that they shall have the garden; they fight in Allah's way, so they slay and are slain; a promise which is binding on Him in the Taurat and the Injeel and the Quran; and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? Rejoice therefore in the pledge which you have made; and that is the mighty achievement.Case closed, GG, bye-bye
-
Dear Ayman;
YOU STILL HAVE NOT ANSWERED MY QUESTION SIR!
Ayman
It is better to be confused and non-confident than confused and confident.
2226 is not a confusing passage. It is very clear. Thus, I am confident in the god when he clearly told us the location of the house in 2226. I am confident that he gave us all the info that we need. You are free to believe 2226 or not. My sincere advice to you is to ponder on it and then decide if you want to put your confidence in the god and let him guide you or if you are going to say "nah, I know better and Mecca is the location".2226 tells us
We appointed Abraham to establish the House "You shall not idolize any other god beside Me, and purify My shrine for those who visit it, those who live near it, and those who bow and prostrate.- Allah appointed Abraham to establish the Shrine, at a specific location (not any where).
- He advised Abraham
a) Do not idolize any other god beside me
b) Purify my shrine for those who visit it, who live near it and those who bow and prostrate/who yield and submit.
This verse tells us that there is a specific location for "BAyt".
Abraham and his Son up to the time they were alive kept on their promise of Not idolizing any other God besides Allah, and kept away all the corruptions from the House.
This verse does not tells us that if idolatry starts at the house go and change it to anywhere. Infact we know that when people started idiolizing other god's besides Allah at the house, Allah send a Prophet as per the prayers of Abraham who destroyed these Idols and stopped other corruptions in "Mansiks" going on at that time, he (prophet did not changed the "Bayt". Why? because he had no authority to do so! Allah has chosed the location itself and has mentioned it in many verses.
Now if you tell us that because the "Bayt" is not fullfilling the conditions as per 2226, we must establish new "House" wherever these conditions are fullfilled, then your claim must be backed up from Quran and you have FAILED TO DO SO till now! and 2226 doesnot tell us to change the "house".
I would like to give an exampleFor example I live in "Das MArinas Village" in MANILa Phillippines, this is very "peacefull" locality, full "security" is available here in electronic and physical shape, and specifically in my "House" there are no idols. I think this almost fullfils the conditions you think are necessary for "House".
Similarly My friend lives in Switzerland and she thinks her place is the most peaceful and fullfills all the other conditions you mentioned.
and so does Millions others
So who will decide which one is the real "House" of Allah? and will Ayman you come there for performing the "rituals" mentioned in quran? That is the "House" of Allah and Allah has decided it where it has to be!
Now please read this verse
Surely, those who disbelieve and repulse others from the path of GOD, and from the Sacred Masjid that we designated for all the people- be they natives or visitors- and seek to pollute it and corrupt it, we will afflict them with painful retribution.See it is Allah, who will decide for those who pollute it and corrupt it! and not you brother ayman! You are actually trying to repulse others from the path of God and from Sacred Masjid. Allah tells he will afflict pain ful retribution for them and doesnot say CHANGE the LOCATION of my HOUSE.
ALLAH HO AKBAR.
FALSE HOOD IS BOUND TO PERSISH AND HAS PERISHED.
Therfore i ask you the question once again
WHich verse of the Quran tells us that if there is idolatry going on in Allah's House change the House and place it ANYWHERE?NOW when it is almost confirmed that "House" of Allah just can't be ANYWHERE and it has a specific location which Allah has chosed, we move on to your second claim that the "House" was in NORTHREN ARABIA, I guess you said in likhmind province (i am not sure).
WHY THE HOUSE CANNOT BE IN NORTHREN ARABIA
"Our Lord, I have settled part of my family in this uncultivable valley, at Your Sacred House. Our Lord, they are to observe the Salat, so let throngs of people converge upon them, and provide for them all kinds of fruits, that they may be appreciative"
- As the place ayman tries to mention to be the house of Allah, seems to be prosperous land with all sorts of cultivations going on, does not matches with the description of the valley mentioned in this verse.
- Now Abraham specifically prays for all Kinds of fruits, if it seemed to Abraham that this land can be cultivated or was cultivable then he would not pray for all sorts of fruits, he would rather say make this land fertile for my family and the later genrations.
Further proof from Quran that the VAlley was uncultivable
This should be cherished by Quraish.
Their protection during their trading caravans in the winter and the summer --
They shall worship the Lord of this shrine.
For He is the One who fed them after hunger, and provided them with security after fearThese words in this Surah "Raba Haza-al-bayt" the Lord of "this house" tells us that Allah is talking to people of that Particular land where the "BAYT" is and Allah mentions there way of earning and that is "TRADING" and not by cultivation, and then in the last verse it tells us that "HE" is the one who fed them after hunger, giving an indication to the Abraham's prayer where he said "provide them with all kinds of fruits" because this valley is incapbale of growing any.
Will they not then believe.
Quran tells us that
They shall complete their obligations, fulfill their vows, and visit the ancient House.VISIT THE "BAYT-AL-ATIQ.
This further confirms that Hajj can only be to a place where there is "Ancient Bayt" and Not newly proposed houses as planned by ayman.The (livestock) provide you with many benefits for a period, before being donated to the ancient Bayt.
Once again Allah rejects the Plans of ayman and co. This has to be done only where the Ancient Bayt is and not in a place as proposed by ayman.And call out to mankind with the Pilgrimage, they will come to you walking and on every transport, they will come from every deep enclosure
There is Zero Evidence that any Pilgrimage was made to any point in Northren Arabia by Muslims in last fifteen hundred years or so.
Ayman makes assertion that soon after the death of Prophet the Place which was set up as "House" was full of idolatry again and SURPRISINGLY the MUslims of that time doing nothing to stop that Idolatry instead stoped doing Hajj, it is also to be noted that he doesnot mention how long after Prophet's death the hajj stopped at Northren Arabia? The question arises
WHO SHIFTED the House of Allah from Northren Arabia to present Day MAKKAH? and why there was no opposition to this? Were the Makkans' more stronger, were they more literate, more Knowldgeable? ayman is silent about all these points.
To shift the "Bayt" which was so sacred even before Muhammad, was not an easy task and an event which went unmarked in the History, and even for last fifteen hundred years no one of recognized Scholars, writers or Historians have pointed out this SO called Blunder.
Ayman ISSUES a FATWA that in present circumstances and from last fifteen hundred years the HAjj is being Suspended
But What ALLAH HAS To say in this regard......... And God is owed from mankind to pilgrim to the Bayt, whoever can make a path to it. And whoever rejects, then God has no need of the worlds.
See ayman what Allah has to say for those who think Hajj is suspended from the time of Prophet Muhammad, whereas Quran on the contrary tells us Muhammad came to reborn the religon of Abraham.
You shall hold fast to the rope of GOD, all of you, and do not be divided. Recall GOD's blessings upon you - you used to be enemies and He reconciled your hearts. By His grace, you became brethren. You were at the brink of a pit of fire, and He saved you therefrom. GOD thus explains His revelations for you, that you may be guided.
But on the contrary brother ayman you are telling us each to have his own "Bayt", you are trying to disunite Muslims.
According to a you the history of Islam and Muslims is quite possibly a lie.
Therefore the claim that "Bayt" being in Northren Arabia or any where holds no Air; According to Quran, History and Logic but wait Ayman has an article in his support
about what he thinks that I have not enough depth to tackle it.
But before I comment on such a "Sacred" document of ayman let me first clear out some of his previous supposedly unanswered comments.ayman
The hearsay history of Islam and Muslims is much like their traditions (Hadiths) which are proven to be full of lies. In fact, even sectarians admit that Hadiths are full of lies and thus collectors such as Bukhari trashed the vast majority. Why do you expect them to be completely truthful in one thing and proven liars in another? A liar is a liar in all situations
.Either you donot read your opponents comments; which is more likely to be as "DEnis Giron" and others have pointed out or you just think that calling one a hadith believer can gain you some sympathy in the eyes of Hadith rejectors.
My stance on Hadith is quite clear and if you have a time from your busy schedule please click on following link
this was a debate with AbuL KAsem and HECTOR at APOSTATESOFISLAM web site on the topic titled
"WAS MUHAMMAD A PEDOPHILE"?Abul Kasem(FFI) Vs Rajah
http//www.apostatesofislam.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1131&start=0
This debate is also featured at Infidel Guy web site a famous Atheist web site as intresting debate
Mughal
Joined Feb 02, 2003
Posts 403
Location Islamabad,Pakistan Glasgow,Scotland
Posted Sun Feb 26, 2006 530 am Post subject ISLAM DEBATED by MUSLIMS & NONMUSLIMS
Please add interesting links only.
- Was Muhammad a Pedophile?
Abul Kasem(FFI) Vs Rajah
http//www.apostatesofislam.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1131&start=0
- Is Quran the word of God? Does Arabic have a word for a male BEE?
Rajah's Challenge (one on one debate with Phed)
P1) http//www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11189&highlight=
P2) http//www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11189&start=0
- Is the quranic inheritance law perfect?
http//www.faithfreedom.org/forum2/viewtopic.php?p=11064
http//www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2346&start=0
- Some more interesting debates.
http//www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15104
All the best from Mughal at
http//www.religionandsecularism3.gq.nu/favorite_links.html
Last edited by Mughal on Tue Oct 03, 2006 321 am; edited 1 time in total
-
Stilllearning
AOA Rajah
Like you waiting for an answer whether in N. Arabia or anywhere. I thought Arabia meant Arabia and anywhere meant hmm! anywhere. Also waiting for link of the debate between Mr. Saifullah and Ayman.
It is for each person to decide for themselves as to who is exactly out of their depth here. All I know is that in a discusion when an individual starts to insult his opponent it mean they are usually out of their depth and cannot respond logically or factually and the insults are simply to sidetrack the debate in order to hide a lost argument.
regardSalam brother
May be after my last post ayman can give us an answer for N.A or Anywhere and if Anywhere then When, Why and Who allowed it?
Regarding the debate between ayman and Saifullah on the above Issue, I have not seen any direct debate after all the googling.
ayman
Rajah, if you are going to ask for something that requires me spending some of my time to do a search on your behalf and get you the info on a golden platter, then you should at least be nice about it.
At any rate, as I said, you have to go about 4 years back
http//groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.islam/browse_frm/thread/75aae4a889a0c494/
In the course of the debate, we discussed Hadiths about "qiblah"/target. As you can see, Mr. Saifullah was defending Hadiths that say that when we defecate or urinate we should not face the so-called Qiblah but face the east or the west. Those Hadiths clearly make fun of the god and of passages such as 2115 that say "to the god belongs the east and the west". Of course, Mr. Saifullah was too busy defending his hearsay with more hearsay and didn't care about the content or validating it against the great reading. It is a waste of time to continue a debate when it is clear that the opponent doesn't even care about what the god is saying.
I just don't understand why did you posted this link? First of all this debate is regarding HAdith, secondly it clearly tells us your lack of knowldge regarding Hadith stuff.
-
Raj-ah,
I think one of the chief reasons you have difficulties understanding what Ayman is trying to tell you is your poor mastery of the Arabic language.
There are many instances where you base your proofs on a basis of a distorted or wrong translation. One significant example is what you translate as uncultivable valley (ie a land that cannot be cultivated), is in fact uncultivated valley (ie a land that happens not to be cultivated but who might)...
Another more important misconception and wrong interpretation is that the House was built by Abraham, it was not, but its Foundation, raised from the House (which are Monotheism and dedication to Allah alone) was.
As for my position, I believe that the House has to be physical and is in fact in Jerusalem, and that we need to raise the Foundation of Monotheism from it. -
Nabster
Raj-ah,
I think one of the chief reasons you have difficulties understanding what Ayman is trying to tell you is your poor mastery of the Arabic language.There are many instances where you base your proofs on a basis of a distorted or wrong translation. One significant example is what you translate as uncultivable valley (ie a land that cannot be cultivated), is in fact uncultivated valley (ie a land that happens not to be cultivated but who might)...
Another more important misconception and wrong interpretation is that the House was built by Abraham, it was not, but its Foundation, raised from the House (which are Monotheism and dedication to Allah alone) was.
As for my position, I believe that the House has to be physical and is in fact in Jerusalem, and that we need to raise the Foundation of Monotheism from it.I find it quite difficult to deal with extremists with patience, as you being one of them who wants to detroy "Bayt" with Tom Hawk Missile.
Any how; I have never claimed mastery in Arabic but there are others who are masters and recognized world over, that doesnot mean that they are perfect but surely they are more learned then many.
Who has given you the Authority to say that some translation is wrong? how you can decide? Let us see what do they have to sayKhalifa
"Our Lord, I have settled part of my family in this plantless valley, at Your Sacred House. Our Lord, they are to observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), so let throngs of people converge upon them, and provide for them all kinds of fruits, that they may be appreciative.
Yusuf Ali "O our Lord! I have made some of my offspring to dwell in a valley without cultivation, by Thy Sacred House; in order, O our Lord, that they may establish regular Prayer so fill the hearts of some among men with love towards them, and feed them with fruits so that they may give thanks.
Pickthal Our Lord! Lo! I have settled some of my posterity in an uncultivable valley near unto Thy holy House, our Lord! that they may establish proper worship; so incline some hearts of men that they may yearn toward them, and provide Thou them with fruits in order that they may be thankful.
Shakir
O our Lord! surely I have settled a part of my offspring in a valley unproductive of fruit near Thy Sacred House, our Lord! that they may keep up prayer; therefore make the hearts of some people yearn towards them and provide them with fruits; haply they may be grateful
Sher Ali `Our Lord, I have settled some of my progeny in an uncultivable valley near Thy Sacred House. - Our Lord, - that they may observe Prayer. So make men's heart incline towards them and provide them with fruits that they may be thankfulI would also like to show you the translation by GHULAM AHMED PERVEZ if you are familar with his name
35-41) To check oppressive forces from exploiting others, it was necessary to establish Niz?am-e-Rabubiyyat. This was founded by Abraham with its centre at Makkah. While laying its foundation, Abraham prayed ?O Sustainer of all creation, make this habitat a sanctuary for the oppressed people of the world (2/126) and grant me and my progeny the power to withstand those forces which create obstructions in your way. These forces have led many people astray. Those who follow my way belong to me. As for those who do not, their matter rests with you - to decide whether to protect them or not (11/15). O Our Sustainer! I have settled some of my offspring in a barren valley where nothing grows, next to Your House so that they may establish the Niz?am-us-Sal?at. Make the hearts of people incline towards them and provide them with means of sustenance so that their efforts may bear fruit. O Our Rabb, You know what we hide and what we disclose not only that but You know everything in the heaven and the earth. Hamd is due to that Allah who has granted me in this old age Ishm?ael and Isaac. I am certain that my Rabb will hearken to my petition. Give me and my progeny the capacity to preserve and strengthen the Niz?am- us-Sal?at. O our Rabb grant me this petition of mine. O Our Rabb grant protection to me and my forebears (such as those who believe in you) and the Momineen on the Day of Reckoning? (9/114, 19/47, 26/86, 60/4).
"O our Sustainer! Behold, I have settled some of my offspring in a valley in which there is no arable land," close to Thy sanctified Temple, so that, O our Sustainer, they might devote themselves to prayer cause Thou, therefore, people's hearts to incline towards them 53 and grant them fruitful sustenance,
In urdu
a) Maududi
b) Abdul Qadir
and many other Scholars have translated it as "Uncultivable Valley"In presence of these names who are translating it as "Uncultivable" Valley, the Scholars, masters of Arabic, intellectuals well recognized, names like Muhmammad Asad, names like Ghulam Ahmed Parvez, like Maududi etc.
Therefore you telling us that the translation I chose is wrong, is some thing of no weightage, unless and until you can with some solid evidence prove all those mentioned above, wrong.
Further more there are other verses of Quran which tells us that the place where the Bayt is located is uncultivable land. For example the verses I quoted in one of my previous posts.
Abraham, raised its Foundation from the House (which are Monotheism and dedication to Allah alone) was the actual meaning of verse, according to you, Ok, we have no Problem with it, BUT THIS DOES MEAN THAT THERE WAS A PHYSICAL HOUSE AT A SPECIFIC LOCATION, as you also admitted.
Nabster
I believe that the House has to be physical and is in fact in Jerusalem, and that we need to raise the Foundation of Monotheism from it
I am, glad that you like "Warner" and brother "Still learning" donot agree with "hearsay" of ayman.
Can it be in Jerusalem? that is the point at which we left our discussion with agentxxx, to refute the claim of ayman that "the House was in Northren arabia and now we can have it anywhere".ayman
I think one of the chief reasons you have difficulties understanding what Ayman is trying to tell you is your poor mastery of the Arabic language
There is no difficulty in understanding what ayman is trying to tell us
The "BAYT" was at some point in Northren Arabia.
After the Prophet emerged in that Area, soon after his preachings and his death, PEOPLE STOPPED HAJJ, and the "BAYT" is no more a "BAYT".
The Hajj is suspended from last fifteen hundred years.
Some unknown figures from the past shifted the "BAYT" from N.A to S.A or C.A without being noticed by any one, for last fifteen hundred years or so.
We can have a "Bayt" ANYWHERE we like, as far as it is peaceful and there is no idolatry going on.This is the summary of the most illogical claim ever made.
And then there are some questions which were raised which he has to answer which he has not, neither can he.We by the grace of ALLAH have clearly refuted the claim of ayman by the Great reading,History, and inscription found at Makkah dated 1 AH that "the HOuse of Allah can be ANYWHERE" and "once it was in Northren arabia".
ALLAH HO AKBAR.
Regarding the Claim that House of Allah was in Jerusalem and still is in Jerusalem, we will discuss it, some time in near future.
-
Raj-ah, again, what do you make of this
009.107
YUSUFALI And there are those who put up a mosque by way of mischief and infidelity - to disunite the Believers - and in preparation for one who warred against Allah and His Messenger aforetime. They will indeed swear that their intention is nothing but good; But Allah doth declare that they are certainly liars.
PICKTHAL And as for those who chose a place of worship out of opposition and disbelief, and in order to cause dissent among the believers, and as an outpost for those who warred against Allah and His messenger aforetime, they will surely swear We purposed naught save good. Allah beareth witness that they verily are liars.
SHAKIR And those who built a masjid to cause harm and for unbelief and to cause disunion among the believers and an ambush to him who made war against Allah and His Messenger before; and they will certainly swear We did not desire aught but good; and Allah bears witness that they are most surely liars.009.108
YUSUFALI Never stand thou forth therein. There is a mosque whose foundation was laid from the first day on piety; it is more worthy of the standing forth (for prayer) therein. In it are men who love to be purified; and Allah loveth those who make themselves pure.
PICKTHAL Never stand (to pray) there. A place of worship which was found upon duty (to Allah) from the first day is more worthy that thou shouldst stand (to pray) therein, wherein are men who love to purify themselves. Allah loveth the purifiers.
SHAKIR Never stand in it; certainly a masjid founded on piety from the very first day is more deserving that you should stand in it; in it are men who love that they should be purified; and Allah loves those who purify themselves.009.109
YUSUFALI Which then is best? - he that layeth his foundation on piety to Allah and His good pleasure? - or he that layeth his foundation on an undermined sand-cliff ready to crumble to pieces? and it doth crumble to pieces with him, into the fire of Hell. And Allah guideth not people that do wrong.
PICKTHAL Is he who founded his building upon duty to Allah and His good pleasure better; or he who founded his building on the brink of a crumbling, overhanging precipice so that it toppled with him into the fire of hell? Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.
SHAKIR Is he, therefore, better who lays his foundation on fear of Allah and (His) good pleasure, or he who lays his foundation on the edge of a cracking hollowed bank, so it broke down with him into the fire of hell; and Allah does not guide the unjust people.009.110
YUSUFALI The foundation of those who so build is never free from suspicion and shakiness in their hearts, until their hearts are cut to pieces. And Allah is All-Knowing, Wise.
PICKTHAL The building which they built will never cease to be a misgiving in their hearts unless their hearts be torn to pieces. Allah is Knower, Wise.
SHAKIR The building which they have built will ever continue to be a source of disquiet in their hearts, except that their hearts get cut into pieces; and Allah is Knowing, Wise.009.111
YUSUFALI Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise) they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded that is the achievement supreme.
PICKTHAL Lo! Allah hath bought from the believers their lives and their wealth because the Garden will be theirs they shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain. It is a promise which is binding on Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an. Who fulfilleth His covenant better than Allah? Rejoice then in your bargain that ye have made, for that is the supreme triumph.
SHAKIR Surely Allah has bought of the believers their persons and their property for this, that they shall have the garden; they fight in Allah's way, so they slay and are slain; a promise which is binding on Him in the Taurat and the Injeel and the Quran; and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? Rejoice therefore in the pledge which you have made; and that is the mighty achievement.Now fit this above context into the verse below and it makes a lot of sense - Abraham raised the foundations of Islam, piety, the fath with a prayer.
002.125
YUSUFALI Remember We made the House a place of assembly for men and a place of safety; and take ye the station of Abraham as a place of prayer; and We covenanted with Abraham and Isma'il, that they should sanctify My House for those who compass it round, or use it as a retreat, or bow, or prostrate themselves (therein in prayer).
PICKTHAL And when We made the House (at Makka) a resort for mankind and sanctuary, (saying) Take as your place of worship the place where Abraham stood (to pray). And We imposed a duty upon Abraham and Ishmael, (saying) Purify My house for those who go around and those who meditate therein and those who bow down and prostrate themselves (in worship).
SHAKIR And when We made the House a pilgrimage for men and a (place of) security, and Appoint for yourselves a place of prayer on the standing-place of Ibrahim. And We enjoined Ibrahim and Ismail saying Purify My House for those who visit (it) and those who abide (in it) for devotion and those who bow down (and) those who prostrate themselves.002.126
YUSUFALI And remember Abraham said "My Lord, make this a City of Peace, and feed its people with fruits,-such of them as believe in Allah and the Last Day." He said "(Yea), and such as reject Faith,-for a while will I grant them their pleasure, but will soon drive them to the torment of Fire,- an evil destination (indeed)!"
PICKTHAL And when Abraham prayed My Lord! Make this a region of security and bestow upon its people fruits, such of them as believe in Allah and the Last Day, He answered As for him who disbelieveth, I shall leave him in contentment for a while, then I shall compel him to the doom of Fire - a hapless journey's end!
SHAKIR And when Ibrahim said My Lord, make it a secure town and provide its people with fruits, such of them as believe in Allah and the last day. He said And whoever disbelieves, I will grant him enjoyment for a short while, then I will drive him to the chastisement of the fire; and it is an evil destination.002.127
YUSUFALI And remember Abraham and Isma'il raised the foundations of the House (With this prayer) "Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us For Thou art the All-Hearing, the All-knowing.
PICKTHAL And when Abraham and Ishmael were raising the foundations of the House, (Abraham prayed) Our Lord! Accept from us (this duty). Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Hearer, the Knower.
SHAKIR And when Ibrahim and Ismail raised the foundations of the House Our Lord! accept from us; surely Thou art the Hearing, the Knowing002.128
YUSUFALI "Our Lord! make of us Muslims, bowing to Thy (Will), and of our progeny a people Muslim, bowing to Thy (will); and show us our place for the celebration of (due) rites; and turn unto us (in Mercy); for Thou art the Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL Our Lord! And make us submissive unto Thee and of our seed a nation submissive unto Thee, and show us our ways of worship, and relent toward us. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Relenting, the Merciful.
SHAKIR Our Lord! and make us both submissive to Thee and (raise) from our offspring a nation submitting to Thee, and show us our ways of devotion and turn to us (mercifully), surely Thou art the Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.Now, consider the context of the verse - who it's addressing
002.122
YUSUFALI O Children of Israel! call to mind the special favour which I bestowed upon you, and that I preferred you to all others (for My Message).
PICKTHAL O Children of Israel! Remember My favour wherewith I favoured you and how I preferred you to (all) creatures.
SHAKIR O children of Israel, call to mind My favor which I bestowed on you and that I made you excel the nations.Do Jews and Christians run around a black cube and kiss stones in Mecca?
-
Warner
A sample article from the ?Encyclopaedia of the Qurn? at Brill Online. The article deals with some important aspects of the modern day hajj and its contradictions. Find the article at http//www.brillonline.nl/public/pilgrimage#content#content
The article, Normative Communitas and the Struggle for Religious Legitimacy in Pilgrimages to the Second Temple by Dr. Jackie Feldman on the ancient Jewish pilgrimage to the Temple brings out many similarities to the Hajj in the Quraan and the ancient Jewish pilgrimage.Find the full article at the following link
www.netours.com/jrs/2003/forum/off-track/pilgrimage-2nd-Temple1.htm
REJECTED! on the basis of your following quotes
Warner
Since Britannica says Mecca is Bakkah, it has to be. Great argument. Why don?t you forward the Quraan to these world bodies and get their opinion that it is Gods words. Look up in Britannica for Abraham, Jesus, crucifixion and other numerous issues and you will know how good their research is. Britannica even gives you the place of Jesus? crucifixion. Britannica is not a research organization to verify scientific and archeological facts. Your blind following of books other than the Quraan has made you believe in Britannica without question. It is sad you chose Britannica to explain the Quran.
I do not dilute what I study in the Book of Allah with man made books and fabrications
For those who are blind and led astray by the shaitan they can not see or understand the book of Allah. They will defend their falsehood using Britannica or any source. And devil will help them and protect their sources and Allah will protect His message.
-
Salaam Rajah
I have not given the links of two articles as evidence or in support of any view or argument and the articles are not quoted to interpret the Quraan.
They are only to read and gain knowledge. The article from "Encyclopedia of the Quran" raises many credible contradiction on the sunni pilgrimage which proves the sunni bilgrimage
is trash just like trash you raise in your posts. -
Warner
They are only to read and gain knowledge. The article from "Encyclopedia of the Quran" raises many credible contradiction on the sunni pilgrimage which proves the sunni bilgrimage
is trash just like trash you raise in your posts.Warner
For those who are blind and led astray by the shaitan they can not see or understand the book of Allah. They will defend their falsehood using Britannica or any source. And devil will help them and protect their sources and Allah will protect His message
rotfl rotfl rotfl rotfl rotfl brickwall brickwall elektro
-
Dear OPF
the verses you just brought as a proof for your argument or aymans argument are actually telling another story. One of the problem with Quran Alone persons is that they pick up some verses and start building whole building of ideas on it, without studying the Quran as a whole.
The verses are from Surah "Toaba" the surah talks about City "MADINA" therefore it is certain that the SUrah was revealed in MAdina and not at MAkkah. The Surah is talking about Mushrakeens, Munafeqeens, and Kuffar. In this Surah I have seen the anger of Allah displayed not like in any other Surah. Actually Allah is showing his anger over some who did not accompanied Muhammad on a War, Physically and Financially, (This further confirms that this Surah is revealed in Madina as there was no war before migrating), and those who have built a Mosque in Madina, but there are minds are not yet Muslim, they are actually inclined towards Shirk.
The connection you are trying to built between these ayats and the "Bayt" in Makkah is not there.Let us see
And there are those who put up a mosque by way of mischief and infidelity - to disunite the Believers - and in preparation for one who warred against Allah and His Messenger aforetime. They will indeed swear that their intention is nothing but good; But Allah doth declare that they are certainly liars.So some people build a mosque in Madina but their intentions are not good,
a) they want to disunite the Believers
See how Allah looks at some who is trying to disunite Muslims? What about those who say Build where ever you want;ANYWHERE further disuniting Muslims.
b) they want to use that very Mosque, as a conspiracy place for some one who has warred against Allah and his Messanger afore time.
Here Allah is telling Prophet to take caution against these Munafeqeens.Never stand thou forth therein. There is a mosque whose foundation was laid from the first day on piety; it is more worthy of the standing forth (for prayer) therein. In it are men who love to be purified; and God loveth those who make themselves pure
a) Allah warns the Prophet not to satnd in that Mosque which is built in Madina becuase of following
i) It is to disunite Muslims
ii) It will be used as conspiracy against the Prophet and Allah
iii) Infidelity
b) Instead Allah tells that the A masjid that is established on the basis of righteousness from the first day is more worthy of your praying therein. In it, there are people who love to be purified. GOD loves those who purify themselves.
If we look within the context of whole Surah; I think Allah is refering to Masjid-i-Nabvi here which is in Madina, which is established from the first day on the basis of righteosness.Which then is best? - he that layeth his foundation on piety to God and His good pleasure? - or he that layeth his foundation on an undermined sand-cliff ready to crumble to pieces? and it doth crumble to pieces with him, into the fire of Hell. And God guideth not people that do wrong.
Allah tells us that the Masjid built by Prophet is best, when both are compared.
What important here is that Allah compares two "Mosques", and not "Bayt" with Mosque.Try to read it with this point of view.
Hope You will understand; nice try though.
Therefore these Ayats in have nothing to do with the "Bayt" located in Makkah.Do Jews and Christians run around a black cube and kiss stones in Mecca?
I have discussed this in detail in previous posts.
-
From my meager knowledge of Arabic, I can at least know that Al-Madinah can also be "The City", literally. Now, Madinah was changed to the name "Madinah" in 630 (if we trust the Islamic sources, which I don't but playing devils advocate...) - http//lexicorient.com/e.o/madina.htm. The name only was changed from Yathrib or Lathrippa at that time. Prior to that, "Medinatun Nabi" was the nickname for it. How can you actually say that "The Quran is referring to a nickname of a city the prophet is residing in" when there is already a widely established common noun in place? Where else in the Quran does God suddenly directly reference a city? I see tribes like Sodom being referred to, but their cities? No.
Now, using common sense
009.101
YUSUFALI Certain of the desert Arabs round about you are hypocrites, as well as (desert Arabs) among the Medina folk they are obstinate in hypocrisy thou knowest them not We know them twice shall We punish them and in addition shall they be sent to a grievous penalty.The verse is quite clear. It's a contrast between the desert Arabs in the... desert, and the desert Arabs in the city. Why change the meaning of "medina" from "city" to "Medina", something that according to Islamic history happened in the last 2 years of the prophet's death? According to Islamic history, in this period, he was supposed to be lying at home in bed ailing from a Jewish woman's cursed sheep. Now, that's what I call commandeering an army.
So some people build a mosque in Madina but their intentions are not good,
a) they want to disunite the Believers
See how Allah looks at some who is trying to disunite Muslims? What about those who say Build where ever you want;ANYWHERE further disuniting Muslims.
b) they want to use that very Mosque, as a conspiracy place for some one who has warred against Allah and his Messanger afore time.
Here Allah is telling Prophet to take caution against these Munafeqeens.When you build a physical house, that automatically creates a rift between those who wish to take the verses at face value, and those who wish to take the verses according to hadith. If you don't, this verse simply becomes an example, or a parable. If you do, it's effectively an executive order - do not stand in that mosque.
Onto the next part - 9109. I'm not sure what verse you are reading, but that verse is comparing foundations, not mosques. It is contrasting a mental/spiritual foundation to a physical foundation, albeit a shaky one. Last I checked, my house's foundations are of bricks and mortar - not "piety". If my house was built on "piety", I would be killed by "gravity". This of course, clicks neatly into place when we observe that Abraham rased the foundations of this house mentally - with a prayer.
002.126
YUSUFALI And remember Abraham said "My Lord, make this a City of Peace, and feed its people with fruits,-such of them as believe in Allah and the Last Day." He said "(Yea), and such as reject Faith,-for a while will I grant them their pleasure, but will soon drive them to the torment of Fire,- an evil destination (indeed)!"
PICKTHAL And when Abraham prayed My Lord! Make this a region of security and bestow upon its people fruits, such of them as believe in Allah and the Last Day, He answered As for him who disbelieveth, I shall leave him in contentment for a while, then I shall compel him to the doom of Fire - a hapless journey's end!
SHAKIR And when Ibrahim said My Lord, make it a secure town and provide its people with fruits, such of them as believe in Allah and the last day. He said And whoever disbelieves, I will grant him enjoyment for a short while, then I will drive him to the chastisement of the fire; and it is an evil destination.002.127
YUSUFALI And remember Abraham and Isma'il raised the foundations of the House (With this prayer) "Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us For Thou art the All-Hearing, the All-knowing.
PICKTHAL And when Abraham and Ishmael were raising the foundations of the House, (Abraham prayed) Our Lord! Accept from us (this duty). Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Hearer, the Knower.
SHAKIR And when Ibrahim and Ismail raised the foundations of the House Our Lord! accept from us; surely Thou art the Hearing, the Knowing002.128
YUSUFALI "Our Lord! make of us Muslims, bowing to Thy (Will), and of our progeny a people Muslim, bowing to Thy (will); and show us our place for the celebration of (due) rites; and turn unto us (in Mercy); for Thou art the Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL Our Lord! And make us submissive unto Thee and of our seed a nation submissive unto Thee, and show us our ways of worship, and relent toward us. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Relenting, the Merciful.
SHAKIR Our Lord! and make us both submissive to Thee and (raise) from our offspring a nation submitting to Thee, and show us our ways of devotion and turn to us (mercifully), surely Thou art the Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.Click, click, click. Foundations raised, from what? Piety.
Try to read it with this point of view.
Oh, I have, and I did, until I realised it was based on foundations on an undermined sand-cliff, ready to crumble to pieces. It almost crumbled into peces taking me down with it, but I was guided )
And of course, the verses have nothing to do with Makka - you are 100% correct on there. The verses address any medina, any city )
-
...... Where else in the Quran does God suddenly directly reference a city? I see tribes like Sodom being referred to, but their cities? No.
I can understand what you are saying, but that is expected from those who realy donot study history, or REad Quran verse by verse through root method.
Ignorance is no excuse I think.Al-Quran
Have you not considered how your Lord dealt with Ad, (The people of) Iruma, possessors of lofty buildingsI just do not want to be hard on you, but please take care when you assert some thing from Quran.
SAMIA
Salaam Rajah
Do you know of any mosque built in "Medina" during the life of the Prophet other than his mosque?
I was missing you. Thanks for posting.
Yes! at least two
One the Mosque Zarar, which is talked about in the verse and Mosque Qubaa.