The prophetic mission -Is Islam a religion or a state?
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I think you have misunderstood something about slaves and concubines. Quran never suggests that we 'should' have slaves and concubines. If anything, Quran is asking muslims to free their slaves as an act of worship.
Salaam hajirfm
And what about concubines? Do muslims have the choice to free them too? If they do not want to free them, can they keep them as concubines? Can muslim women also have "male concubines"? Any verses please, so that I might know the difference between "concubine" and "slave".
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I am not picking and choosing; it's you who picks and chooses whatever he feels he can understand and accept and leave out the parts that he feels they are old and outdated. You are the one who rejects the hudood in the Quran. I on the other hand accept Quran as a message to all mankind and for all times.
I think you have misunderstood something about slaves and concubines. Quran never suggests that we 'should' have slaves and concubines. If anything, Quran is asking muslims to free their slaves as an act of worship.
Thats not the point, the point is you do not want to admit that it is outdated and there is not ONE reference in the Quran of ANY legal concept that has relevance to future generation and not the 7th century Madina community. In fact Everything the Quran legislates in terms of legalism is relevant to that society in the 7th century. We see no refernce of the Quran to events in the future in terms of legal issues it raises. If God wanted to He could have gave us something about the future, however since religion has no time and place there was no need to. The Islamic state has never happened and will never will. Please explain to me, how are you going to outlaw riba and force minorities to pay jizya.
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Thats not the point, the point is you do not want to admit that it is outdated and there is not ONE reference in the Quran of ANY legal concept that has relevance to future generation and not the 7th century Madina community. In fact Everything the Quran legislates in terms of legalism is relevant to that society in the 7th century. We see no refernce of the Quran to events in the future in terms of legal issues it raises. If God wanted to He could have gave us something about the future, however since religion has no time and place there was no need to. The Islamic state has never happened and will never will. Please explain to me, how are you going to outlaw riba and force minorities to pay jizya.
I don't get your logic. Are you saying that the Quran is outdated? On what authority you make such a big claim? It's funny that you are asking for reference in the Quran of legal concepts that have relevence to future generations. Well do you have any reference in the Quran of any legal concept that doesn't have relevence to futrue generations? I would say it was natural to assume that the laws of Quran apply to future generations as well 'unless' specified otherwise. In other words the default is that these laws are valid for all times 'unless' another message from god abrogates them. Only the one who sends the revelations has the authority to abrogate it not you, not me, not anybody else.
Islam state happens when muslims are ready. The Sharia can't enforce itself on people. Only people can enforce Sharia on themselves.
I am not an economist and I can't tell you how you can get rid of ribaa. But if the majority of muslims are ready for Shaira, it will come naturally and people have always found solutions for their problems.
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Salaam hajirfm
And what about concubines? Do muslims have the choice to free them too? If they do not want to free them, can they keep them as concubines? Can muslim women also have "male concubines"? Any verses please, so that I might know the difference between "concubine" and "slave".
Of course you can free your concubines too and for example marry them off (or marry them yourself). Nobody can force you to free your concubines. If you have concubines, they are your property.
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I don't get your logic. Are you saying that the Quran is outdated? On what authority you make such a big claim? It's funny that you are asking for reference in the Quran of legal concepts that have relevence to future generations. Well do you have any reference in the Quran of any legal concept that doesn't have relevence to futrue generations? I would say it was natural to assume that the laws of Quran apply to future generations as well 'unless' specified otherwise. In other words the default is that these laws are valid for all times 'unless' another message from god abrogates them. Only the one who sends the revelations has the authority to abrogate it not you, not me, not anybody else.
Islam state happens when muslims are ready. The Sharia can't enforce itself on people. Only people can enforce Sharia on themselves.
I am not an economist and I can't tell you how you can get rid of ribaa. But if the majority of muslims are ready for Shaira, it will come naturally and people have always found solutions for their problems.
Only another prophecy can abrogate the religion of Islam, the difference between me and you is you still are not able to understand my concept of what religion is. As far as Musims can try to implement the Islamic state, its been tried and failed one after the other because the social, political and economic climate has changed from the 7th century but the religion is being practiced undeterred. Thats because to practice the religion of Islam all you need is the sun, moon, some water and know where the direction of mecca is. Zakat is dependent on waelth and wealth is wealth, its still the same.
However when you speak of Shariah, you are speaking of a legal and political framework that I am saying is not part of the deen but part of 7th century Medina community and the 4 Caliphs. It ended with the death of Ali and any attempt to bring it back has failed.
Yes, if God wanted to establish a state for all Muslims the Quran would have gave us guidance to do so but it has not, it gave the prophet and his companions the guidelines and not us. This is why the Quran says Islam is a deen(religion) and not a state.
It is wrong to say the Quran is outdated since we learn from history, I said the historicity of the Quran must be appreciated. Its important for us to know about the history of our community and how it was set up just as the Quran talked about Adam and Noah and Abraham for us to know our history. However we have a deen, which is laid to us in the Quran which includes the rituals which we inherited from the prophet.
The Shariah must take into account the time and place the community was set up, it brought justice and equality according to the understanding of 7th century Arabia which divided society between men and woman and free people and slaves. It also was a tribal society that believed in tribal revenge and such was the custom.
The Baqara (cow)
177. It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness- to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the Allah.fearing.-
O ye who believe! the law of equality is prescribed to you in cases of murder the free for the free, the slave for the slave, the woman for the woman. But if any remission is made by the brother of the slain, then grant any reasonable demand, and compensate him with handsome gratitude, this is a concession and a Mercy from your Lord. After this whoever exceeds the limits shall be in grave penalty.
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In the Law of Equality there is (saving of) Life to you, o ye men of understanding; that ye may restrain yourselves.
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Only another prophecy can abrogate the religion of Islam, the difference between me and you is you still are not able to understand my concept of what religion is. As far as Musims can try to implement the Islamic state, its been tried and failed one after the other because the social, political and economic climate has changed from the 7th century but the religion is being practiced undeterred. Thats because to practice the religion of Islam all you need is the sun, moon, some water and know where the direction of mecca is. Zakat is dependent on waelth and wealth is wealth, its still the same.
My point is simple God sent down a set of laws to prophet such as the punishment for theft, the laws of inheritence and so on. Why did God do that? Because the muslim society needed the revelation to tell them what to do concerning these matters while on some other matters they decided by themselves. Now the question is why didn't god send down any laws after prophet passed away? If the social climate changed and so muslims needed 'different laws' to govern their affairs, why didn't god send down new laws? Why did God feel obliged to send down such laws when prophet was alive but now we are completely on our own to figure out similar laws for our times? This just doesn't make sense.
However when you speak of Shariah, you are speaking of a legal and political framework that I am saying is not part of the deen but part of 7th century Medina community and the 4 Caliphs. It ended with the death of Ali and any attempt to bring it back has failed.
What do you think 'deen' is? Is deen just praying and fasting and performing hajj and giving zakah? Is that what the muslims did at the time of prophet? No. They also had a justice system based on Quran and commands of his prophet. Deen is complete only if it gives us guidelines on all matters. Deen does not mean religion. Deen is the way of life that you live. You practice Islam from the moment you wake up to the moment you go back to sleep. You are not practicing Islam only when you pray or fast or give zakah. Your talk, your walk and your actions should be islamic. The laws that you follow should be islamic too. If we fail 1000 times, we should try again. If we don't work for perfection, our lives are wasted. Don't let the failure of others discourage you.
Yes, if God wanted to establish a state for all Muslims the Quran would have gave us guidance to do so but it has not, it gave the prophet and his companions the guidelines and not us. This is why the Quran says Islam is a deen(religion) and not a state.
The same logic can be used to imply that god only asked prophet and companions to pray and fast or to stay away from alchohol. You may argue "at that time arabs used to consume a lot of alchohol and get drunk and do bad things... but now we are civilized and economic and social climate has changed and so there is no harm in drinking one glass of wine per night." This is mocking the deen and god!
It is wrong to say the Quran is outdated since we learn from history, I said the historicity of the Quran must be appreciated. Its important for us to know about the history of our community and how it was set up just as the Quran talked about Adam and Noah and Abraham for us to know our history. However we have a deen, which is laid to us in the Quran which includes the rituals which we inherited from the prophet.
The Shariah must take into account the time and place the community was set up, it brought justice and equality according to the understanding of 7th century Arabia which divided society between men and woman and free people and slaves. It also was a tribal society that believed in tribal revenge and such was the custom.
So which parts of Quran you accept as applicable to our times? Do you have made a list of the parts that you think are still applicable? For example
- Do you follow the quranic laws of inheritence?
- Do you follow the prohibition of alchohol and pork?
- Do you follow the laws concerning marriage and divorce?
What if you daughter comes home with a boyfriend and when you object, she says dad, that was 7th century and now we are modern and the social climate has changed we need boyfriends and girlfriends. At that time women needed to get married because they couldn't work and support themselves and so marriage was safer for them to be protected but now I have a job and I make money... don't worry dad, I am an independent woman who can think and decide for herself.
Think about it bro. You think god would leave us without laws to govern our affairs when he didn't leave the best of people (prophet and his companions), who needed such laws the least, without them.
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What if you daughter comes home with a boyfriend and when you object, she says dad, that was 7th century and now we are modern and the social climate has changed we need boyfriends and girlfriends. At that time women needed to get married because they couldn't work and support themselves and so marriage was safer for them to be protected but now I have a job and I make money... don't worry dad, I am an independent woman who can think and decide for herself.
Salaam hajirfm
Now that's interesting!
What should he do, in your opinion? (We shall wait to know what he will do if he replies).
And what would YOU do? These things just happen without being called for.
Even worse, what would you do if your grown up son/daughter become atheist? They do not even need to quote any century in particular. This applies to times. -
My point is simple God sent down a set of laws to prophet such as the punishment for theft, the laws of inheritence and so on. Why did God do that? Because the muslim society needed the revelation to tell them what to do concerning these matters while on some other matters they decided by themselves. Now the question is why didn't god send down any laws after prophet passed away? If the social climate changed and so muslims needed 'different laws' to govern their affairs, why didn't god send down new laws? Why did God feel obliged to send down such laws when prophet was alive but now we are completely on our own to figure out similar laws for our times? This just doesn't make sense.
What do you think 'deen' is? Is deen just praying and fasting and performing hajj and giving zakah? Is that what the muslims did at the time of prophet? No. They also had a justice system based on Quran and commands of his prophet. Deen is complete only if it gives us guidelines on all matters. Deen does not mean religion. Deen is the way of life that you live. You practice Islam from the moment you wake up to the moment you go back to sleep. You are not practicing Islam only when you pray or fast or give zakah. Your talk, your walk and your actions should be islamic. The laws that you follow should be islamic too. If we fail 1000 times, we should try again. If we don't work for perfection, our lives are wasted. Don't let the failure of others discourage you.
The same logic can be used to imply that god only asked prophet and companions to pray and fast or to stay away from alchohol. You may argue "at that time arabs used to consume a lot of alchohol and get drunk and do bad things... but now we are civilized and economic and social climate has changed and so there is no harm in drinking one glass of wine per night." This is mocking the deen and god!
So which parts of Quran you accept as applicable to our times? Do you have made a list of the parts that you think are still applicable? For example
- Do you follow the quranic laws of inheritence?
- Do you follow the prohibition of alchohol and pork?
- Do you follow the laws concerning marriage and divorce?
What if you daughter comes home with a boyfriend and when you object, she says dad, that was 7th century and now we are modern and the social climate has changed we need boyfriends and girlfriends. At that time women needed to get married because they couldn't work and support themselves and so marriage was safer for them to be protected but now I have a job and I make money... don't worry dad, I am an independent woman who can think and decide for herself.
Think about it bro. You think god would leave us without laws to govern our affairs when he didn't leave the best of people (prophet and his companions), who needed such laws the least, without them.
I have explained its the concept of State not halal and haram that we are discussing. A sin is a sin, maybe nowadays the sin might not carry as much as the past regarding sexual misconduct depending on where you reside, but a sin is a sin. A greedy man donating money will probably get more reward than a generous man giving the same. A bad tempered man who forgives might get a higher rewrd than a person who can keep his cool. This always existed, God judges according to the personality, personal experiences, environment, upbringing, intellect and will power and faith.
However trying to duplicate the state that functionc 1,400 years ago is impossible. Of course sexual misconduct has no place or time, rituals as i9 explained do not change since we rely on the sun, moon and water for doing them. These things are not time based. Our aqeedah can never change till judgement day. However trying to force minorities to pay jizya, trying to revive the Caliphate, trying to enforce riba will be very difficult since these are social and political sissues that do change with time.
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Hajirfm makes a compelling point.
The Quran does not mention any specific organisational structure, however. What we have is the whole legislative branch of a republic stuffed into one book.
As for atheism, Samia
There is no compulsion in deen
Nuff said.