Quran the Criterion?
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Peace Waleed, all,
But I do think that this universe can guide us. I mean, everything works in a certain way.
The universe does not guide. It is there to be learned from. We study the universe and take lessons from it - good and bad (in human terms). Repeating Nadia's sentiment, there's no certainty to be had in following any arbitrary path in nature. Nature's major lesson is harmony. We're here to carve our own path while maintaining balance/harmony. For all we know, our striving to be harmonious may be the very thing that causes disharmony and the eventual demise of the Earth. And that in itself may be part of the path of nature - just like a catastrophic asteroid.
I mean, we're all part of this one universe, and everything we have comes from it. And if we have a inherent moral compass that guides us, then that's part of the universe too.
I think we have to be careful in distinguishing what an inherent moral compass is, lest it become a crutch in times of bad decisions. As I've understood, the only thing inherent is the soul/spirit. What we call moral values or a compass can often be misunderstood in that many moral values we carry are not inherent, but inherited. Guilt is a great barometer for this. We often think of guilt as some sort of deep inner calling from the divine when in fact it can easily be sublime psychological conditioning via experience.
Waleed, you say the right things, you know what to do. It's time you do what you know. Stop thinking and meditate/pray/talk to God. When you limit your mind's chatter and redirect your focus inward, the light will shine. It may be dim at first, but with practice, it's gets brighter and brighter.
Peace,
Tay -
...remember the verse that says if you're in doubt, produce a surah like it?
Yes, 1038.
But I haven't yet seen one quoting 1113 (Or they say that he forged it. Say produce ten surahs like it)
Why?
And why do you think once it is "one chapter", and another it is "10 chapters"?
God is talking about two different things The Book and the Quraan.
Maybe Lobster is correct in differentiating between the two, but unable to give a precise definition to either. -
Peace Waleed,
The Qur'aan is not from the criterion, it is "CLARIFICATIONS from the criterion", implying that it contains the criterion. In other words, the Qur'aan clarifies by the criterion it gives.
Peace tanveer, phoenix, all
i know we may be splitting hair in four, but IMHO, if quran is or contains "clarifications from the criterion", the criterion must be outside (other than) quran. Problem of translation ?
lk
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Peace all,
i know we may be splitting hair in four, but IMHO, if quran is or contains "clarifications from the criterion", the criterion must be outside (other than) quran. Problem of translation ?
According to 2185, the Qur'aan is "clarifications from the guidance", which means that it contains the guidance, i.e. it clarifies by the guidance it gives.
Similarly, the Qur'aan is "clarifications from the criterion", which means it contains the criterion, i.e. it clarifies by the criterion it gives.
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Peace Tanveer
yes ok, i get what you mean, but doesn't that sound like bad English ? And how is it in Arabic ?
The book gives guidance from the book....(that it what it does come down to and no, i'm NOT hinting to kitab here).
Shouldn't it rather go the book gives guidance on a certain theme treated in the book ? Do you get what i mean ? Sorry, i did not really have the time to reflect on this, but this formulation does bug me.Anybody else ?
elke
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Peace Elke,
The book gives guidance from the book....(that it what it does come down to and no, i'm NOT hinting to kitab here).
No, that is not what it comes down to. This is what it means
The book gives clarifications by the guidance contained in it.
OR
The book clarifies things by the guidance it contains.
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Yes, 1038.
But I haven't yet seen one quoting 1113 (Or they say that he forged it. Say produce ten surahs like it)
Why?
And why do you think once it is "one chapter", and another it is "10 chapters"?
God is talking about two different things The Book and the Quraan.
Maybe Lobster is correct in differentiating between the two, but unable to give a precise definition to either.Salam Samia,
May you enlighten me regarding the two different things.. the book and the quran? tq..
Anyway, based on those verses and the example of musa, the quran, i believe have some criteria that distinguish itself from other books.. Characteristics that no other books have but the quran.. just like musa said of the micracles, "none sent down these save the Lord of the heavens and the earth as proofs.."
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peace All,
Tan man,
The book clarifies things by the guidance it contains.
But that's not what the quran says, is it? Those aren't the exact words.
It says clarification from the guidance.
I don't know if it even matters.Tay,
The universe does not guide. It is there to be learned from. We study the universe and take lessons from it - good and bad (in human terms).
Yeah, the universe doesn't guide us, but we can be guided by studying it. Same goes for the Quran, then, doesn't it?
You can choose to not read it, and you can interpret it in different ways.Repeating Nadia's sentiment, there's no certainty to be had in following any arbitrary path in nature. Nature's major lesson is harmony. We're here to carve our own path while maintaining balance/harmony. For all we know, our striving to be harmonious may be the very thing that causes disharmony and the eventual demise of the Earth. And that in itself may be part of the path of nature - just like a catastrophic asteroid.
The thing is, in nature, there's no good and bad, but in our minds there is. That's the problem.
Isn't it possible that there is no such thing as good and bad, and it's just something us humans created?
So it doesn't really matter if we're good or not?I think we have to be careful in distinguishing what an inherent moral compass is, lest it become a crutch in times of bad decisions. As I've understood, the only thing inherent is the soul/spirit. What we call moral values or a compass can often be misunderstood in that many moral values we carry are not inherent, but inherited. Guilt is a great barometer for this. We often think of guilt as some sort of deep inner calling from the divine when in fact it can easily be sublime psychological conditioning via experience.
True, true.
Waleed, you say the right things, you know what to do. It's time you do what you know. Stop thinking and meditate/pray/talk to God. When you limit your mind's chatter and redirect your focus inward, the light will shine. It may be dim at first, but with practice, it's gets brighter and brighter.
Will that light show me how everything works?
the thing is, I need to know how things work. I feel like I can't trust something unless I know how it works. Same thing happened with the law of attraction thing. I'm still trying to figure out what the hell it may be. I dunno. -
It is the Creator of all creations who guides us, Waleed.
No matter how hard we think... it is up to the The Starter.. whether we understand or not.
It is The Most Gracious that we shall turn to, and trust.p/s without trust, there is no relationship,
without relationship, there is no experience,
without experience, there is no opportunity to learn. -
Peace Waleed,
Yeah, the universe doesn't guide us, but we can be guided by studying it. Same goes for the Quran, then, doesn't it? You can choose to not read it, and you can interpret it in different ways.
Yes.
The thing is, in nature, there's no good and bad, but in our minds there is. That's the problem.
A problem and a solution, a blessing and a curse.
Isn't it possible that there is no such thing as good and bad, and it's just something us humans created?
So it doesn't really matter if we're good or not?Anything is possible - but not all possibilities are probable.
In my understanding, it's not good and bad as polar opposites. It's good and bad as positive value and zero value.
Light is positive, dark is zero light. Dark does not have a value. Something cannot be made more dark - only less light.
Do you see the difference?The qur'an tells us that whatever good we have is from God, and whatever wicked is from our "self". Do you see the enormity and beauty of this simple expression. The universe is good. Everything is good. The only "bad" is ignoring what is obviously good - and this only happens when we let our minds control and become the identity of our selves. Instead of seeing the beautiful sunset, we're trapped in thought wondering how we're gonna make it through the day. A stranger asks for change and you get irritated that he's disrupting your routine, your pattern of thought.
If you just shut your mind up for a moment, you'll notice the beautiful sunset. And in that moment, instead of feeling stressed for no reason, you'll feel relaxed and peaceful. That's a choice.
We are the creators of what we experience, of how we feel. And when we open our eyes and see all the good, we're witnessing God everywhere. When we're trapped in thought, we see nothing. Deaf, dumb, and blind.
Will that light show me how everything works?
Yes, everything that we're capable of comprehending and putting into words. You'll also get a load of stuff that you can't put into words, but it will be everything nonetheless.
the thing is, I need to know how things work. I feel like I can't trust something unless I know how it works. Same thing happened with the law of attraction thing. I'm still trying to figure out what the hell it may be. I dunno.
That's because you're thinking about the things that need to be experienced. Is it possible to think your way into experiencing the feeling of skydiving? There's no substitute for meditation or prayer or talking to God. Just do it bro, and you'll feel much better. Before you fall asleep, just lay there and allow yourself to be grateful for everything you have in life. One by one, go through the people that make you happy and just visualize that happiness. Relive the memories, see their faces, their smiles. It's like magic, in a moment, you'll feel happy. And then you thank God for having these people in your life. You wish for good things for them. Compassion and love will overflow like you're bathed in it. And that's always there, at your fingertips, for you to enjoy - a blessing from God, a recipe to reconnent whenever you want.
Peace,
Tay -
May you enlighten me regarding the two different things.. the book and the quran? tq..
Salaam Katara, all
This is the idea of Sha7rour's famous book "Alkitaab wal- Qur'aan" in which he draws many differences betwen the two, and claims that if we understand these differences, reading the mus7af will be much easier and more logical.
Another difference (related to this topic) resides in the following verses
22 That book ,whereof there is no doubt, a guidance to the righteous/God fearing people in which the Qur'aan was revealed as guidance for people
2185 Shahru ramadaan in which was revealed the qur'aan, a guidance to PEOPLE and clear proofs of the guidance and the criterion
So, the book is guidance to those who believe in God and fear Him, whereas the qur'aan is guidance to ALL people, and a proof of the (book and the criterion, which he has another definition for)
According to him, the qur'aan is the book of the creation and the stories of past nations and prophets, and it serves as a guidance inasmuch as a credential for the prophet and a protector of alkitaab.
Alkitaab, on the other hand, is the message the book of law.
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Peace Samia,
I think you have mixed up the translation of 22 with 2185. The translation of 22 should stop after God fearing people.
22 That book ,whereof there is no doubt, a guidance to the righteous/God fearing people.
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Blessed is He who sent down the Criterion to His servant, that it may be an admonition to all creatures (251)
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Peace Samia,
I think you have mixed up the translation of 22 with 2185. The translation of 22 should stop after God fearing people.
22 That book ,whereof there is no doubt, a guidance to the righteous/God fearing people.
Oh dear! And I was saying "where did this verse go?" and had to type it again!!
Blame it on...never mind -
peace all,
Savage, you saidI think another issue here is of morality. Where does morality come from and why/how do we choose to make it into a criterion to live our lives by. I don't think it's all subjective and/or complicated, I believe that there is objective truth and if one is sincere (in wanting to know, thereby erasing bias/ego/other factors as much as they can, using reasoning and logic etc eventually there comes a point of certainty), one will be guided to it regardless of where that guidance comes from (explained a bit further below). I like the story of Abraham here. I also think that a total clampdown on emotion is not right (just read your entire post now). I have always seen a true harmony like a balance. Everything working in tandem with the other and when they all point to the same thing, it's like you've hit gold.
I'm sincere, and I want to know. But the thing is even if I know, can I distinguish between what's right and what's wrong ?
From what I've experienced, when we see something, we instinctively know what is the right thing and what's not.
Even people who believe in stoning people to death for adultery have to come up with excuses for the punishment. It shows that even if we believe in the wrong thing, that instinct of right and wrong is still there.
but for now, I'll stop thinking and follow Tay's advice. -
Peace,
But the thing is even if I know, can I distinguish between what's right and what's wrong ?
Yes, not just by gut but by examining it critically and seeing if everything (mind/gut/reason/logic/self etc) comes together.
From what I've experienced, when we see something, we instinctively know what is the right thing and what's not.
I've experienced that my gut can be overwhelmed by other factors thereby confusing my judgement.
Even people who believe in stoning people to death for adultery have to come up with excuses for the punishment. It shows that even if we believe in the wrong thing, that instinct of right and wrong is still there.
It could be that they are not comfortable with it yet don't want to openly risk others wrath or be ostracised, or to go all the way, find out why/how and reject it decisively. Sure that instinct can be there like I said, it can also be ignored/played down/rejected due to various factors.but for now, I'll stop thinking and follow Tay's advice.
Good call imo )
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Salam,
D ..was browsing for answer, came to read wakas' article on Does God Exist, and tada! Quran's characteristics..
from http//mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/think-786/DGE_science_koran_quran.htm
Probability Values for Each Section
Part 1 ? Science in The Quran = ?1 in 1 billion?Part 2 ? Literary Quality of The Quran = ?1 in 10 million?
Part 3 ? Prophecies Within The Quran = ?1 in 1 million?
May i add, what i found amazing about the quran is that, the author (if one wants to see it that way) of this book did say he is but a messenger, and he tells the reader to worship God alone, worship God alone, worship God alone.
Now, which book author, in addition to have written such a simple, in an authoritative way yet force no ideas down the readers' throut, detailed book full of wisdoms, did not ask us to look up to him but worship God alone, worship God alone, worship God alone... that's the main point of the book...
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Peace all,
Mind/gut/reason/logic/self/instinct can all be used to come to the conclusion of what is right or wrong, but the only ABSOLUTE way to confirm that conclusion will be to compare it with the criterion given in the Qur'aan.
The problem is that we can never be one hundred percent sure about the truthfulness of our conclusion as to what is right or wrong, because the evil hidden side of our nafs keeps putting the wrong thoughts (wasaawis) in our mind, thereby clouding/confusing/tainting the issue, so we cannot rely ONLY on our minds/gut/reason/logic/instinct etc, and need an ABSOLUTE criterion to verify our tainted conclusions.
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Peace Tanveer,
Very well stated, although I slightly disagree.
Deep meditation/prayer transcends the chatter of the nafs and is thus immune to the influence of the ego/iblis. When we have the qur'anic guidance in mind, the deep reflection puts it into the proper perspective. It is the combination of knowledge and meditation/prayer that solidifies the concepts.Peace,
Tay -
I agree with both Tanveer and Tay in a way. The problem is, on one hand giving the only absolute criterion in a book that is the only absolute way, how does one relate such to someone who doesn't have/can't read the quran for themselves? That's the major problem that I see here and therefore, maybe an alternate is present. I think a person can make it without and that route has it's ups and downs as well. Peace.
but the only ABSOLUTE way to confirm that conclusion will be to compare it with the criterion given in the Qur'aan